eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators

https://www.opensignal.com/2023/07/25/arrival-of-esim-is-altering-how-consumers-interact-with-operators

by signa11 • 3 years ago

144 194 3 years ago

eSIMs can also make it easier to switch phones. Want to try a different OS? Going hiking and don't want to risk your nice phone? Traveling?

A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a minute or two.

I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of each and switching between them.

adrianmsmith• 3 years ago

Surely this is the same with real SIMs? I mean, assuming you have the "SIM tool" available, you can move the SIM from one phone to another in a minute or so?

daggersandscars2• 3 years ago

The time I tried this in with my previous carrier with a smartphone, I had to call the cellular provider and get the phone "authorized" before it would work. I don't know if this was specific to the carrier, specific to the phone, or to the era (~10 years ago).

With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app. Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this easier.

I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the pre-smartphone era.

Sylamore• 3 years ago

I was doing the same thing with physical SIMs for over a decade before eSIMs even existed. I even could use SIM trays to make the same one fit in different form factors.

kotaKat• 3 years ago

Meanwhile, small/private operators can't even leverage eSIM. We're trying to run a CBRS-based LTE deployment in-house and can't find a single company willing to work with us to get eSIM provisioning capabilities because we can't just make eSIMs like we can physical ones -- thanks to eSIM's fairly obtuse cryptogatekeeping by the GSMA, we can't do anything without their blessings.

Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac... nobody.

EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc) I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) -- we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our office.

KingFelix2• 3 years ago

Kotakat!! I attempted to ping you on discord but it wouldn't let me. I found your discord posts super helpful with Pollen gear! Thank you for that. I might be able to help with esims, asking someone right now. Are you doing data only? or ims too?

21432• 3 years ago

What if I go abroad for a few days and need a temporary SIM from there, but my phone only supports eSIM?

With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that.

Apple’s move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM technology.

Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).

ericpauley2• 3 years ago

There are companies (won’t endorse any in particular) that will let you buy data eSIMs for virtually any country. They can be downloaded before you leave or using airport WiFi, and usually activate automatically when you arrive.

adeelk932• 3 years ago

I’ll endorse one - been using Airalo for a few years, works great. I prefer using that app to finding someone at the airport to buy a SIM card from.

toomuchtodo2• 3 years ago

I’ll endorse Airalo, they’re amazing. I use them religiously for temp eSIMs while traveling. Would never go back to physical sims.

zamadatix• 3 years ago

Just got back from 2 separate trips to Europe with an iPhone 14 pro (eSIM only US model). The first trip I landed in Germany, remembered I needed a phone plan when I landed, and got a 1 month unlimited plan on DT using the airport Wi-Fi and was good to go. For the 2nd trip to France I downloaded a short traveler plan eSIM to my phone before leaving and activated when I got off the plane.

In both cases it was easier than dealing with physical SIMs. Also there was no concern about how many slots the phone had, it can even store extra non-active eSIMs on top of having your two active ones.

21432• 3 years ago

Okay! That's reassuring :)

xcdzvyn• 3 years ago

Same. I landed in Turkey last month and picked up a Europe-wide eSIM via the airport WiFi. Quick and easy. It saved me faffing with storing my local SIM somewhere safe for a month and from having to find a SIM store that isn't trying to rip off tourists.

throw3837374• 3 years ago

The iPhone 14 sold in China has dual physical SIMs and no eSIM support.

netsharc• 3 years ago

Interesting, maybe a paranoid in the dictatorship realised eSIM support would mean it'd be much much easier for someone to get a foreign SIM (just get a QR code delivered) and bypass the great firewall.

ezfe7• 3 years ago

With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that.

I'm not sure what you mean? Carriers already have the ability to lock a phone to their network, regardless of eSIM or not.

martin84122• 3 years ago

No they don't? They can lock it if they sold it to you, but they can't lock arbitrary devices.

Shank• 3 years ago

I went to Japan and used Ubigi, which has service basically anywhere, to add dual-SIM and have data. I also used Airalo. Both worked great with e-SIM, and it was painless to get data activated and working. There was also a large variety of plans to choose from. I really liked the whole experience!

benkruger• 3 years ago

I have been using eSIMS's for years while traveling. The Internet is unlocked for my entire family for next to nothing. The prices get less expensive every year as well. IMO.

The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.

londons_explore• 3 years ago

The dream of esim is great.

The reality not so much. I tried it a few months ago and found:

* Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!

* Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'.

* The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work.

* If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.

* The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it. The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.

Most of these flaws are problems with the mobile network's policies and processes. But some are with the esim spec (not allowing backup/restore, not having enough info in the QR code to connect to a network without internet).

Overall, esims have so far caused me hours of frustration and little benefit.

ezfe7• 3 years ago

You've already acknowledged that most of the issues you encountered are specific to your phone or carrier. For example, eSIM works fine with 5G on iPhones and in my experience there is no delay to activate an account. I've set up multiple phones on eSIMs and never experienced something like that.

Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new eSIM.

In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier app and reinstall it to the phone.

wux• 3 years ago

I think they've got a fair point, though, that a number of those issues with the eSIM reflect reliance on factors outside their control (for example, whether or not one's carrier has competent backend systems) where before swapping a SIM card was a physical action within their control. It's a frustrating feeling when a new technology takes something out of your hands in the name of convenience but, far from being seamless, actually introduces problems that are entirely out of your hands to fix.

dontlaugh• 3 years ago

The carriers are the problem, though. In many countries there's at most one eSIM carrier, some don't allow it for pay-as-you-go and their implementation is often generally poor.

There's very little a carrier can get wrong with a SIM.

amluto• 3 years ago

I wasted a couple hours dealing with the fact that my carrier wants an ICCID to activate an eSIM, but iPhone eSIMs don’t have (or at least don’t show) an ICCID until after activation.

My carrier literally has a webpage explaining how to do it on an iPhone, and the page is blatantly wrong. Good job testing.

liminalsunset• 3 years ago

There's another issue with eSIM: In Canada, all of the carriers offering it charge $10 to provision an eSIM. You get a little plastic card with a QR code on it, and once provisioned, it's totally useless.

Want to switch your phone? $10 and you have to go to the carrier physically.

The iPhone feature where you can transfer an eSIM appears to work with carrier support, and the carriers here I've tried all don't support it so the process fails.

mig39• 3 years ago

My kids use e-sims from Orange France on their iPhones in Canada. 365-day great for kids that are always around WiFi, but need data once in a while. I basically pay for 5 gigs and it lasts a year. Roams on Telus, Bell, Rogers on 5G.

I think for 3 kids, I pay about 10% of what I would pay for them to have monthly plans from a Canadian carrier.

Hamuko• 3 years ago

I've had similar experiences, although not quite as expensive. I think it was either 3€ or 4€ to get a new eSIM, which you would do by logging to the carrier's website, clicking a button and scanning the resulting QR code PNG. Absolutely nothing about the process warrants that cost and obviously the operator is blocking from using the iPhone-to-iPhone eSIM transfer tool.

I called up my operator before I decided to switch to another operator. Got a whole slew of excuses for it. "Transfers are blocked for security purposes." Didn't figure out a security benefit for the surcharge. "You'd have to pay for a new physical SIM card too", except I wouldn't because physical SIM cards are REUSABLE. Tried to use this line of reasoning against the operator by asking to not order a new eSIM but reuse the eSIM I already had, but no dice.

Thankfully I managed to find a phone plan that was cheaper than the one I had, so I fixed my eSIM issue and got slight savings on top. Of course after I signed the new contract, my existing operator decided to ring me up and butter me up again. At least this time they admitted that it was just pure rent-seeking and they surely could've given me a free eSIM. Too bad my mind had been made at this point.

AlexandrB• 3 years ago

Canadian wireless carriers and ISPs (Robellus[1]) suck tremendously. I'm not surprised that they managed to make eSims suck as well.

[1] http://www.realfairforcanada.ca

masklinn2• 3 years ago

In Canada

There’s your problem. Not much to do with esims.

LASR• 3 years ago

What is most frustrating about this is that they insist on mailing the QR code card to you after you pay up on the carrier website. (as-in postage, in an envelope, arrives in 5 biz days).

Why not just show me the QR code on my computer right after I pay your fee? It's quite ridiculous.

whycome3• 3 years ago

It's insane. You can no longer pop your sim into your alternate phone (eg for testing). If you want to, that's $10. Want to switch it back? Another $10.

aaomidi2• 3 years ago

Esims do not need internet or QR codes. A carrier can just push a sim to you as a notification.

callalex• 3 years ago

Push how? Over Bluetooth/NFC? Or do you mean over the internet?

dogma11382• 3 years ago

Physical SIMs can also be and are segregated to a specific network e.g. it’s still possible to buy only 3 or 4G SIMs that are cheaper heck until recently even 2G only SIM packages were a thing.

As far as the other problems go it’s the same with physical SIMs again.

Nearly all physical SIMs today are provisioned OTA so it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate especially if you migrate your number between carriers.

The only way to get an “instant” SIM provisioning is to go to a large physical store even the smaller ones are pretty much the same as getting the SIM delivered to your house i.e. they take you through the same phone/internet based activation and provisioning process.

You’re also wrong about the internet requirement the provisioning system for eSIM does not require internet on the device for access the QR code is essentially an authentication code that combined with the IEMI allows you to register with a carrier.

You usually do need an internet connection on another device to get the QR code in the first place but if you can also use a checkout terminal or just get a paper print out of the QR.

bunga-bunga2• 3 years ago

it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate

In my world, I land in an airport, purchase a SIM card and it works before I leave the airport (or the operator’s desk). It’s often that way with eSIMs purchased via Airalo.

The delay could appear when your transferring your number, but even then you can still use a temporary number until the old one overrides it.

varispeed• 3 years ago

That sounds like something an overly eager and feared manager pushed through because it sounds nice, you know "eSim" and there was nobody to tell him / her it's a stupid idea or maybe there was, but got shut down.

Many organisations suffer this problem and there is really no good solutions to that.

yosito3• 3 years ago

For data-only SIMs while traveling, eSIMs are pretty great. I can just download an eSIM from an app and it's ready to go in minutes. Yes, it requires wifi or another working data plan to get started, but that's way easier than having to find a shop that sells physical SIM cards. If I didn't need to keep my phone number, I'd just stick with data only eSIMs. Unfortunately, I need to keep my phone number because a ton of banks and other accounts that I need to do business have required SMS-only 2FA. Recently, I bought a new phone while traveling and Google Fi wouldn't let me activate a new eSIM without returning to the US. If I would break my phone abroad, it would be an absolute nightmare. eSIMs shouldn't have this problem, but they do.

smallerfish4• 3 years ago

Park your number with a voip firm. You'll get SMS via email. Use local pay-per-use sims wherever you travel. You do not need to maintain a US phone plan to keep a US phone number.

drdaeman• 3 years ago

The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network

I suppose it's an operator problem. 5G with eSIM most certainly works on T-Mobile US. I've also had 5G working on AT&T Mexico eSIM when I was in 5G coverage area (very spotty). Can't tell about travel eSIMs (such as Airalo) as I haven't used those in areas with 5G coverage.

Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours.

Worked nearly instantly for me every time I've tried. Definitely must be a sloppy operator or some error during provisioning.

TechBro8615• 3 years ago

Also (at least for my iPhone 12 mini), you can only have one esim. I have a SIM for two countries and one of them has to be physical, which is unfortunate.

prewk• 3 years ago

I have two on my iPhone 13 mini. One with 5g.

dognotdog• 3 years ago

I was under the impression you could only activate one esim at a time, but store up to 6(?) on that phone?

smoovb4• 3 years ago

I have 10 eSIMs on my iOS (iPhone 12) device currently, with one active eSIM and one active pSIM.

ThePowerOfFuet• 3 years ago

Let's go over these one by one:

Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!

Not an oversight at all. The key exchange has to happen online, as key material is generated on-device, not delivered in the QR code.

Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'.

That is absolutely your operator's issue; I've been up and running in 60 seconds.

The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work.

Which phone is this? I get 5G via eSIM on my Pixel 5, and it works fine on all 5G-capable iPhones too.

If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.

Nope; the secret key never leaves the phone. Contact your operator and they send you a new QR, which for me took five minutes and I had the QR in my email inbox.

The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it.

See above.

The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.

Sounds like you should pick an operator that doesn't suck quite as much.

smcin• 3 years ago

The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G (not 5G) via eSIM

Which phones and model(s)? iPhone (X/11/12/13/14)? Google Pixel Pro 6/7? Samsung Galaxy (S20 or upwards)? Huawei? Oppo? Sony? Xiaomi? Other?

kanbara• 3 years ago

this is why apple spent time and effort on an area where most carriers and manufacturers do not. eSIM on iPhone are instantly transferrable, reconnectable, and available on setup of any logged in device.

mikelward4• 3 years ago

My Vodafone eSIM wouldn't work on 5G. After a week of back and forth with customer service they said I was on the wrong plan, please give them more money to get 5G.

Vibgyor53• 3 years ago

As a digital nomad + business traveler, eSims are total misdirection and more cumbersome experience:

Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months, Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day. With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about eSIMs, not anymore.

Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with “network reception not working” to troubleshooting the signup process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for eSIM vs. physical sim.

jrmg4• 3 years ago

Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?

With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.

This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.

joecool10297• 3 years ago

Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?

No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper apps needed.

With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.

If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to manually transfer (which requires a working phone service), or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on Android.

Vibgyor53• 3 years ago

Giving you real example of buying SIM card in 3 countries (Thailand, Vietnam, Russia) within last 6 months:

You step into the shop/kiosk at the airport (or in the city, however you prefer). They ask you to choose any SIM with desired numbers, plans are clearly well-written, take xerox of your passport (or click a snap of it), and plug the SIM in, pay money, reboot phone, and that's it. It did not take me more than 10 minutes in any scenario.

In all cases, it is cheaper (than using Airalo - and why are we promoting one app anyway!)and less hassle-free than buying eSIM.

dv_dt• 3 years ago

Last time I traveled to a EU country from the US I tried an travel esim service. For a single sample of an unlocked iPhone and and Airalo app it worked flawlessly. Not affiliated with the app, but I may use it again and am curious about different experiences.

I bought the esim about a week ahead and installed it and the validity period auto activiated when I turned on the profile in reach of a valid network.

izacus• 3 years ago

I had a carrier outright take 40$ on eSIM and then fail provisioning because Pixel phones weren't on their whitelist. They refused to return the money or provision my backup Samsung phone.

This shit never happened with physical SIMs.

whycome3• 3 years ago

eSIM is a whole lot of "trust us"

mr337• 3 years ago

Unfortunately it gets worse in other countries such as Mexico.

Most carriers will only provision a eSIM if you are on a contract through them. So lets say you are traveling for US to Mexico with an iPhone 14 (no physical sim) you are SOL. Extremely frustrating.

Only good news is once those contracts are up the used market I hope will force a change in this behavior.

joshstrange3• 3 years ago

The think I hate most about eSIM is we kept around the idea of SIM locking (EUICC lock, also referred to as "carrier visibility" or "carrier reveal").

I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about returning them and getting new/replacement ones.

I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.

FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get better/faster service".

jwong_3• 3 years ago

Do you have details on what kind of complaint you filed?

I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile. End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.

joshstrange3• 3 years ago

Yes, it was a little tricky since there wasn't a clear path. Here is what I did:

1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic...

2. Phone Issues: Availability

3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available

4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile device)

The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was fixed.

housemusicfan• 3 years ago

Why do you suspect this is T-Mobile's fault? It's equally probable they are the only carrier with an eSIM provisioning system that actually works.

3102604• 3 years ago

This type of perma-locking was only an issue for iPads with Apple SIM as I recall. Not the GSMA eSIM technology that is used in devices now.

joshstrange3• 3 years ago

I'm not saying you are wrong but these were 9th Gen iPads which say they support eSIM.

midoridensha2• 3 years ago

I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.

This costs taxpayer money, to have an enforcement agency to deal with BS like this and have them waste time on these matters.

There should be a huge fine that the company in question (AT&T here) must pay every time something like this happens and it turns out it was their fault. When companies like this cost everyone else time and money, they should be heavily penalized, so they'll fix their broken internal processes.

Spooky233• 3 years ago

There is. That’s why you get the love.

The state public service / utility commission is similar with utilities. Verizon let some of their phone infrastructure rot, it fell and was dangling over my yard between a couple of poles. I called them and got all sorts of runaround for days. I filed a complaint and a guy was there in 2 hours assessing the situation and it was fixed by bedtime.

Their newfound responsiveness was because they have a limited number of hours to respond, at which point fines accrue hourly.

kevincox• 3 years ago

The main problem with eSIM is that they are still little HSM modules controlled by the carrier. This results in most of the problems that people are complaining about in this thread.

1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed not to reveal the secrets.

2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the same device). But there may also be some form of replay protection.

What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit.

The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.)

The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control they have over my hardware.

NoZebra120vClip8• 3 years ago

What does "HSM" stand for?

joecool10297• 3 years ago

Hardware Security Module. Basically an embedded device that stores cryptographic keys and performs cryptographic operations (like encrypting/decrypting/signing).

EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made. The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.

notmypenguin• 3 years ago

esim = yuck. I abhor the notion. Very political direction to hijack us all.

jaclaz4• 3 years ago

Sorry to be the (usual) pessimist, but with a physical SIM, if your phone breaks, you can take the SIM and put in another phone (a spare one, a borrowed one), with the eSIM, this becomes complex or impossible:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466

mikelward4• 3 years ago

With Vodafone UK, you just scan the same QR code they originally sent you.

Might be different for different carriers.

jaclaz4• 3 years ago

Yes, very likely carriers (and phone manufacturers) are in the process of making the transfer easier, but it remains more complex than a physical SIM.

I wonder how the "same QR code" might work, I mean, let's say you have your e-sim on your phone, and someone steals the original QR code, if all is needed is to scan it, then the thief could "install" your e-sim to another phone, there must be something else in the procedure to guarantee the de-activation on your phone and allow the transfer, the point is if it is doable with the old phone not functioning.

zoky3• 3 years ago

Having done exactly that, I can tell you that your information is not accurate. The damaged iPhone was completely unusable, and I had no trouble transferring the eSIM to an older spare iPhone. There was no need to touch any approval message on my old phone.

jaclaz4• 3 years ago

Maybe the procedure has changed, or has changed in some cases, definitely the Apple support page text I quoted was changed, still:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780

3. Check for instructions on your previous iPhone to confirm the transfer. To confirm, tap Transfer or, if asked for a verification code, enter the code that's displayed on your new iPhone.

saos• 3 years ago

My main line is physical sim and my burner is an eSim. It's been great!

nottorp3• 3 years ago

I don't understand the enthusiasm about esims. Is the US cell phone market more predatory than i thought?

Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1], you just swap the physical sim and have new service.

With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility.

Swaps take hours to days.

What is the advantage to the customer here?

[1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal fee when the contract period ends.

afavour• 3 years ago

To me the advantage of eSIM is coupled with dual SIMs, something that wasn't very common in the US until the arrival of eSIM. Now when traveling I can purchase an eSIM instead of pay my operator a ton of roaming fees. But I can still keep my main SIM active, just with data disabled.

It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that any more.

What is the advantage to the customer here?

Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated than online retail being considerably more convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier to make a spontaneous purchase.

avgDev2• 3 years ago

I recently traveled to Poland. Instead of paying T-Mobile like $50 for limited data and minutes, I bought Orange prepaid plan.

I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about $5.

I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I then could alternate between sims easily.

I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.

nottorp3• 3 years ago

... you could have picked a sim at the airport couldn't you?

I have to point out that my question still stands. The only ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling abroad.

daveoc643• 3 years ago

How did you get an esim without a network connection?

3102604• 3 years ago

No carrier in the US charges for an unlock. So long as a device is paid off in full, all 3 carriers will unlock devices for free.

flangola7• 3 years ago

Then why are Verizon Pixels unusable with other carriers?

menus• 3 years ago

This is misleading. Carriers can impose restrictions on paid off phones like being subscribed to them for x months. My phone unlocked after 6 months.

It is only free and instant if you are in the military.

whycome3• 3 years ago

Aren't there more than 3 carriers?

jrmg4• 3 years ago

What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval"?

I have not experienced this and I've now used a few different eSims on my iPhone.

[edit: at home in the USA and when traveling internationally]

[edit 2: people are downvoting this, but it's a genuine question!]

nottorp3• 3 years ago

What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval"?

Are all esims supported by your phone? Even if it's theoretically a standard.

zoky3• 3 years ago

For travel, it’s great. When I went to Germany four years ago, getting data on my phone without paying an exorbitant roaming fee involved waiting until I got to Germany, buying a SIM card at a train station, then finding WiFi access so I could complete the registration process, which involved a video call with a Deutsche Post agent to verify my passport for some reason. The last time I went a few months ago, I bought an eSIM before I left, and it activated automatically as soon as I landed in Europe.

Granted, I think a large factor in the hassle the previous time was due to German regulations involved in getting a phone number, but since I didn’t want or need a German phone number it was just unnecessary hoops to jump through. Now I can buy an eSIM from any number of countries that is valid throughout the EU with way less hassle, and I can get service from whatever provider I like rather than having to depend on whichever SIM card I happen to find at the local shop.

I’ve also never had an eSIM swap take hours to days—they’ve always been effectively instant for me. When my phone was damaged and I couldn’t get the eSIM transferred to a temporary phone while I got it repaired, I was surprised by how easy it was to generate a new eSIM online. If I had lost my phone, and I had a spare phone to use, getting service transferred with an eSIM would be a matter of minutes, rather than hours or days to get a replacement physical SIM.

mikelward4• 3 years ago

Last time I went to Germany (2015), T-Mobile had run out of physical SIM cards. We queued up at Vodafone for half an hour. By this point, the store was closing. The employee gave us a SIM but didn't activate the plan correctly. So our €10 was all used up with hours instead of being good for a month. And we had to go back in the next day to sort out it.

eSIMs, EU roaming regulations, and carriers like Google Fi have all improved the situation markedly. Though dealing with Vodafone has not.

nawgz• 3 years ago

you just swap the physical sim and have new service.

If I'm traveling, I don't really want to have to manage my physical SIM while it's outside the phone. With eSIM and a service like Airalo, I can use the airport wifi to get data on my phone (or do it ahead of time), not have to pull my current SIM out of my phone, and the price is really low too. I use it every time I travel to Europe.

It's true the time delay is a little bit annoying but it seems to me the tradeoff is "preserve physical SIM" vs "wait 10min-2h". Pretty fair trade, no?

bunga-bunga2• 3 years ago

What is the advantage to the customer here?

I currently have 5 eSIMs installed on my phone and I can switch at anytime without having to find/carry the SIM cards.

Also in theory if I lose my phone I can just download them again. In practice this might not be as smooth though.

If you change phone more often than you change SIM, you’re right that eSIMs provide zero advantage to you.

jrmg4• 3 years ago

eSIM has been working great for me when traveling to the UK and Canada from the USA.

I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously.

The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again, doesn't allow out of USA roaming.

When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9 for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada).

One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working! With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's internet connection.

BigBalli• 3 years ago

eSIMs are a great invention. I had been swapping SIM cards for decades and life is so much better now. I can receive messages on both numbers and when I travel abroad I simply toggle between them as primary.

_nalply• 3 years ago

This all is a huge boondoggle to keep telcos afloat.

I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet and then have all services.

Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.

klausa• 3 years ago

One interesting thing that eSIMs enable is geographical arbitrage by the carriers.

When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough) eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong.

Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was from a South Korean carrier.

Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!

dzhiurgis• 3 years ago

“Wifi calling” is pretty cool if your operator supports and you got 2 sims.

hattmall• 3 years ago

Can you explain what you mean by this?

smallerfish4• 3 years ago

Actually you can. My "published" phone number is parked at a voip firm, and I get calls on that number over data (fairly few real ones, since my friends tend to mostly use whatsapp to arrange social stuff.) When I travel, I buy a 25GB-for-a-month physical sim from 3UK, sold on the US Amazon site. The only downside is that you can't top up the data using the same pricing unless you're physically in the UK, so I have to get a new sim each trip.

daveoc643• 3 years ago

This is actually quite common with physical SIMs aimed at travellers or those where multi-country or multi-network support is required.

A company will partner with a carrier in country X that has roaming agreements with carriers all over the world.

Scalene2• 3 years ago

Guess this is the end of having 8 SIM cards on a dual SIM phone with one of those really cool adapters. www.simore.com

smoovb4• 3 years ago

And the start of naming your 8 eSIMs meaningful descriptive identifiers.

spiralpolitik• 3 years ago

No issues with eSIM on my end. I switched my number as soon as it was supported 3-4 iPhones ago and have migrated it myself between devices on each upgrade with no issues. Similar for my iPads. No issues moving eSIM between iPads on upgrade.

Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I land or via the plane WiFi if available.

The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays competitive.

Isolus• 3 years ago

I find it inconvenient that pluggable eSIMS are so hard to get. In my opinion they combine the best of both worlds. You can download profiles without wating for SIM cards and you can put them in different phones.

joecool10297• 3 years ago

Just exchange a slightly unreasonable about of money for a esim.me card. They can be managed on most Android devices and swapped even into a featurephone (read my comment before this though for some potential caveats).

joecool10297• 3 years ago

This article mostly doesn't apply to the US market. Let me explain. There's two kinds of lock-in possible with eSIM devices. The first is the standard carrier subsidy lock that AT&T and T-Mobile do with phones sold through them. Verizon doesn't do this due to the old agreement to buy Band 13 spectrum. This is what most people understand, and while it's pretty easy to just ask to have the phone unlocked by the carrier, most won't do this.

The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access. Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE profiles available, much better situation since they've gone CDMAless. What they will not allow for eSIM is activation using just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to be. If you have a device not in that list, it won't activate. The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115)

I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it. I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices, anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even old featurephone from 2007 it works in).

masfuerte• 3 years ago

You have a typo: "support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card". How many? Great comment though

KingFelix2• 3 years ago

15!

perfmode• 3 years ago

I’ve had great experiences using Airalo in Europe.

Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro eSim, and install the eSim.

That’s it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.

opello• 3 years ago

Are we ever going to be able to disambiguate embedded and electronic SIM devices?

squarefoot• 3 years ago

In theory eSIMs are great, in practice they could make another surface of attack if a malicious app sneakily installs an eSIM that charges the user like 100 bucks for a 1 minute call. Social engineering might also be used to lure elderly and less technical users into accepting shady contracts, where a technical relative asked to physically installing the SIM could have spotted the scam.

hakfoo2• 3 years ago

I just don't see what problem eSIM solves aside from the "must be thinner/more seamless" non-problem.

I suppose there might be some corner-cases-- super-travelers, spammers, certain types of devs and network engineers, where being able to have a thick stack of emulated SIM cards and toggling between them would be valuable, but I'm pretty sure they sold devices to do that with physical cards back in the day.

What I do see is a bunch of interesting new failure modes, and the ability for the carrier to get in between me and changing devices. They're going to want to turn "Put in the little pin and pop out the card" into something that involves paying $30 for the generation of a QR code.

smoovb4• 3 years ago

All depends on what problem you value. If you do any kind of international travel the value is clear. If you care about waste and manufacture of an unnecessary product the value is clear.

hakfoo2• 3 years ago

I always figured physical SIMs were still preferrable for travel.

You can largely handle them unattended-- buy it from a kiosk or even a vending machine, and swap it without worry about having to bootstrap connectivity to a provisioning website or whether the carrier and device are willing to do the eSIM dance.

On the other hand, I'm actually surprised we don't see more carriers using better international roaming as a teaser to get people to buy more expensive plans too. The last time I went abroad (to the UK), my US T-mobile plan just worked for slow data, sufficient to Skype home (they said voice calls would be 25 cents per minute).

perryizgr8• 3 years ago

Esim is yet another way the big monopolies (tech and telecom) are taking more and more control away from the paying customer. The situation is very similar to when Apple and later others removed the headphone jack from phones.

No customer would be happy with the change. Some might be ambivalent, others annoyed. But they still did it just so Apple could build a billion dollar ear pods market.

Physical SIMs provide way too much power to the customer. They can change phones and numbers without involving the carrier or phone manufacturer. It's only logical that this last vestige of control be taken away too.

mikelward4• 3 years ago

Disappointingly, ASUS's premium Zenfone 10 doesn't have eSIM. Though it does have dual SIM.

everdrive• 3 years ago

I don’t really understand what eSIM is. Does it act _just like_ a SIM card, but is software rather than a physical card? Does it modify how the phone acts on the network? For instance, if I put a Canadian SIM in my phone, I’ll probably be roaming. I’d have a local (eg: Verizon, AT&T, etc.) mobile ISP IP range, but be roaming from the provider perspective? Or, would I show up as coming from the Canadian mobile ISP’s network?

fatfingerd2• 3 years ago

An eSIM is just a SIM but pre-embedded in the phone so the carrier can't provision a key inside a new SIM and then send it to you, they have to interactively and remotely setup their trust in a key in your non removable SIM.

There's not really any advantage AFA networks, etc, but it may be harder to GEO-restrict a software process than where you are willing to mail a new physical SIM, and of course it will be possible to support a lot more eSIM profiles simultaneously without the physical issues of trying to add bays for traditional SIMs that should be physically distinct if provisioned by different carriers.

smoovb4• 3 years ago

Much of the eSIM dislike on this thread misses several points:

* eSIM for travel vs eSIM for home use are completely different use cases.

* US, Canada and other carrier from other countries severely hamper the experience by charging for QR codes, physical delivery, IMEI requirements and carrier locking.

* Most handsets can have multiple eSIMs installed (I have 10 with one active) giving you carrier flexibility not previously possible.

* With VoLTE or WiFi Calling your home number works like a VOIP number anywhere in the world. In this case you may only need a data only eSIM, where KYC requirements are reduced and options are plentiful.

eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators

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