Way ahead of its time: The Remote Lounge NYC (2013)

https://docpop.org/2013/10/way-ahead-of-its-time-the-remote-lounge-nyc/

by Ivoah • 3 years ago

328 74 3 years ago

paulgb• 3 years ago

Neat! In case anyone else is curious where it was, apparently it’s the present-day location of the Bowery Electric. https://www.theboweryelectric.com/

nhod14• 3 years ago

Trivia: it’s called Bowery Electric because for many many years before we moved in with Remote it was a hardware store called… Bowery Electric.

fallendev• 3 years ago

This place seemed so cool, it's a shame it's gone now, I would love to go to a bar like this.

supportengineer3• 3 years ago

Around 2001 in San Francisco I stumbled into the ruins of a nightclub called the Caribbean Zone, and felt the same way when I saw the waterfall and the Doobie Brothers' airplane

stevenhubertron• 3 years ago

I have spent many nights there. I was good friends with the bartender and was there at least 1 night a week. Fun time. Have lotsa photos of it.

keepper• 3 years ago

Way to bring a memory back. I remember going to this place. Definitely wish there were more places like this now ( in nyc and elsewhere )

taterbase• 3 years ago

There's a really interesting movie called "We Live in Public" that documents one of the early tech pioneers Josh Harris as he sells his internet radio company and then creates an underground CCTV community. It's fascinating and equally frightening how people behaved towards one another while sharing space and constantly watching each other. It reminds me a lot the relationship many twitch streamers have with their viewers. You can find the movie for free on Tubi (in the states at least).

nhod14• 3 years ago

The founders of Remote were in fact the technical team Josh Harris hired to create We Live in Public!

kilroy123• 3 years ago

Very cool. I wish I could have visited. I miss wacky theme bars like this.

One of my favorite theme bars was a place in Mexico City called "Bang Bang" (closed down years ago).

It was Stanley Kubrick themed. There were little black and white TVs everywhere playing weird stuff. Then in the back was a replica 2001: A Space Odyssey bedroom; from the end of the movie. With a glowing white floor. Many people would pile into the bed to smoke, drink, and make out.

donretag• 3 years ago

Not too far from the Remote Lounge was a Clockwork Orange themed bar named Korova Milk Bar around the same time.

nhod14• 3 years ago

So many memories flooding back. We once had a party at Razorfish and I somehow got in touch with random downtown people who made weird alcohols. One of them was a woman who made legit absinthe from real wormwood back before absinthe was legal again, and the other one was a woman who made some sort of narcotic “milk” alcohol inspired by A Clockwork Orange. I’d be shocked if it wasn’t the same woman as this bar!

vxNsr• 3 years ago

Just for reference korova is russian for cow.

ShadowBanThis015• 3 years ago

There are still some. In Milwaukee, and now Chicago, there's a spy-themed bar called The Safehouse. The Milwaukee one has survived for decades, and they're still regarded as pretty cool.

cguess• 3 years ago

Milwaukee is a weird town (disclosure: my home town, but left awhile ago). If it wasn't so close to Chicago, people would talk about it like Seattle or Portland. It's quirky with a world-class art museum, the largest music festival in the world every summer, a very reasonable cost of living, world-class universities, and amazing outdoor opportunities sitting directly on Lake Michigan and being a 30 minute drive from tons of massive state parks.

nimajneb• 3 years ago

This is fascinating, I would definitely frequent a bar with a theme like this. It's amazing.

confoundcofound• 3 years ago

Is there any way back (forward) to this sort of tech innocence?

rozap• 3 years ago

I think the general concept has continued to circulate on the internet. Chat roullete was popular for a long time, https://chat.meatspac.es/ was a great niche for a while, omegle, etc, etc. But like Leo said in the video, these sorts of "experiments" are really sensitive to a critical mass, where they're super fun if you have > N people on the thing at the same time, and kinda weird if you have < N.

roughly• 3 years ago

I think there’s a bell curve here - weird below N, cool above N but below X, and sufficiently full of unwanted penises above X to get weird again.

chuan_l2• 3 years ago

I think two decades on and with " instagram " and other social media people have lost their innocence if you will call it that. Every image or camera shot is now curated , chosen from multiples and even post - processed at the moment of its inception. I used to wonder many years ago that if you could record all of your life in real time as a film from conception to the end. What that might be like to watch ? Self - image on social media is very much like that , an endless performance to a great invisible crowd ..

nhod14• 3 years ago

I actually was the sole developer who wrote all the software that “networked” the custom hardware together. This project was so ahead of its time and yet required some rather arcane programming knowledge. So much fun though. AMA!

nateguchi• 3 years ago

Can you give some details on the hardware? What was the image capture device?

nhod14• 3 years ago

Yep! First, here’s a video from the guy who developed all the hardware, Leo Fernekes. (He runs a great YouTube channel called Leo’s Bag of Tricks all about electronics and neat stuff you can do. Leo’s a genius.) Lots of details in here.

https://youtu.be/3i3db-QgHYE

nhod14• 3 years ago

The Cocktail Consoles (as we called them) were all custom hardware. Everything was designed to be rock-solid both physically (bars are full of drunk people and liquids) and operationally (everything had to Just Work). Leo designed a core “motherboard” which was a PIC microcontroller (I forget the exact model) that did five main things: serial I/O for the buttons and joystick; serial I/O for the attached TV tuner; serial I/O for the attached pan-tilt video camera; audio from the telephone handset; and then multiplexing all of that serial I/O and sending it over serial to a central server (which I wrote — in Perl!) which then controlled all the Cocktail Consoles in the bar.

We used black and white cameras because they were both cheaper and also had much better sensitivity to low-light conditions (this has changed somewhat — but not entirely — in 20+ years) and black and white tube TVs because they were cheap. (This part was actually really dangerous — tube TVs hold enormous charges after they’ve been switched off, enough to kill someone, and we had the guts exposed on the insides of the Cocktail Consoles. Had to be very careful). We used public telephone handsets for the audio because of their durability, and video game buttons and joysticks so you could try very hard, and generally fail, to damage them.

The TV's, cameras, and telephone audio were all connected over an analog CCTV system. The camera was video source and the handset's microphone was the audio source for a given channel. The TV could be tuned to any channel, and was thus the video output device, and the handset's speaker was tied to the same channel. Thus, if you tuned to any camera, you would see and hear whatever was going on at that console, but not the other way around, so it was rather voyeuristic. If TV A was tuned to camera B, and TV B was tuned to camera A, that established a bi-directional link, which meant you could see and converse with the other person.

The serial data from all the microcontrollers were sent over serial-to-CAT5 converters, so the entire place was wired for Ethernet, but it was plain old serial over the wire. We then had these serial cards in a Dell server on the other end, which presented as roughly 100 serial ports on the server.

This was where I had to do a lot of learning. I was a good IP programmer, but I had to reach back into the depths of the kernel and learn all about TTYs and switch() and lots of other stuff that even in 2000 was sort of forgotten. It took me forever to find any good documentation on how to handle that many serial ports in a non-blocking way.

I kept asking Leo to just put a cheap Intel box in each machine and do it all over regular Ethernet, but he (rightly) kept insisting on this low-cost, rock-solid approach. Today the calculus would undoubtedly be different — you would do everything over IP — but back then Leo had a level of foresight I still admire.

nhod14• 3 years ago

Oh, the video capture device: because we had everything on analog CCTV, I had two analog TV tuner video capture cards in the server. Plain old 640x480 black and white analog video. When someone pressed the screen capture button on a Cocktail Console, I changed the channel on the video capture card to the appropriate channel, did a screen grab, and dumped the file in a folder on the server. People pressed it infrequently enough that two cards were fine to handle all the volume.

Every day I'd create a new mm-dd-yyyy folder for images to go to, and the Remote web site had a calendar on it. You could go to the site, click on the night you were there, see all the images captured by all people that night, and save your images if you felt like it.

CSMastermind• 3 years ago

How did they find you an pitch the project to you?

You mentioned that the project required some rather arcane programming knowledge. Could you elaborate on this? What areas of programming did you have to delve into that might be considered out of the ordinary?

Was there any discussion about privacy when you were implementing it?

Were there any features or functionalities that you wanted to implement but couldn't due to technical limitations at the time?

nhod14• 3 years ago

How they found me: When I was 18, I was hired by The Disinformation Company (disinfo.com, the subculture search engine, which presaged our now post-truth conspiracy-theory laden world, though now sadly a shadow of its former self) as their Director of Technology. (I was precocious.)

Disinfo had a cozy relationship with Razorfish, perhaps the biggest of the new breed of digital transformation consulting companies that emerged in the 90's. Razorfish was pretty insane back then — wildly smart and creative people working at the absolute forefront of technology, much of which now seems quaint and taken for granted.

As Razorfish rose and went public, it acquired a bunch of companies, one of which was Disinfo. I ended up becoming Director of Technology for RSUB, Razorfish's media division. Razorfish also acquired another company called Electrokinetics, which was all about hardware, and with whom we shared an office. I started hanging around the hardware guys, because, well, I loved hardware, and they were doing neat things like letting you SMS a soda machine to get a Coke. (This is 1999 — this was the stuff of technology demos of the future, not the real world).

When the Dotcom boom turned into the bust, one of the founders of Electrokinetics left to start Remote. I stayed in touch with them, heard about the project, started talking to them about it, one thing led to another, and I started working there!

Arcane knowledge: I was 21 at the time and had dropped out of computer science to work at a startup, so some of this was just being green, but some of it was also an utter lack of documentation. I was using Perl to write this server, because at the time everything was Perl. I had to read, write, and route data to over a hundred serial devices (our Cocktail Consoles) in a non-blocking fashion using DigiKey serial-to-IP converters. In effect, I was writing the basics of a networking stack (read packet, figure out where it was supposed to be sent, transform it if necessary, send it somewhere else) just over serial.

It wasn't really rocket science, it was just completely undocumented. And also solved by, well, IP networking. But we had to use serial, I was left with basically no books, terrible man pages, and random mentions of stuff in Usenet posts. Much of Linux's serial/tty subsystem was written very early on in the development of the kernel, made rock-solid, and promptly forgotten. What little documentation I could find was sparse and in relation to C functions or syscalls. Perl would then have a wrapper around it, and the wrapper wasn't well-documented nor was it exactly like the underlying call, so there was just a lot of trial and error as I figured out how to properly get the server to wait in a non-blocking way to get input from all of the different serial lines, figure out what to do with them, and write back to them, all in realtime.

Privacy: there was discussion, actually. We had a huge sign when you entered the bar that said something like, "There are hundreds of cameras in here and you agree that you have no expectation of privacy by entering." The whole point was to be a little voyeuristic, so it was very consciously not a private place.

Technical wishes: This is great question, I had to think about it for a bit. Amazingly, I don't think we had a lot of things we weren't able to do. We were able to take screen grabs and email them to people, so taking that a step further I suppose it would have been nice to be able to capture entire video streams instead of just still images, but the whole place had this Jetsons retro-future vibe to it, so some of the limitations were in line with the ethos of the place.

tetrep• 3 years ago

Do you have access to the source code / would you be willing to share it?

nhod14• 3 years ago

I don’t, but if I did I would!

barcode_feeder• 3 years ago

Know of any comparably inspired venues in 2023?

meesles• 3 years ago

Not exactly the same thing, but they had a phone version of this at MeowWolf, the huge interactive trippy art exhibit, in Denver. They had phone terminals laying around with a whole directory of fake businesses. At first, I thought they staffed the lines with employees, but it turned out to be a system like this minus the video screens.

detourdog• 3 years ago

KPC that you?

docpop2• 3 years ago

Thanks so much for joining this conversation, I’m a big fan of your work! Years before I joined any social network, the Remote Lounge already had me thinking about online sharing, consent, and the future of the web.

I’d really like To know how your experience working on The Remote Lounge affected the way you viewed the rise of Web 2.0 and the way we share our lives online.

nhod14• 3 years ago

This is a good question. Remote (and its ancestor We Live in Public) was way ahead of its time in regards to how public people were going to be about sharing their lives online. In many ways Remote was merely an instance of much larger trends in society that began decades (centuries?) before. Sharing your life with people you have never met; the culture (and cult) of celebrity; the long tail; constructing a persona for the public vs your private life; taking pictures of people without permission or knowledge; meeting people in the same room as you not via talking directly to them but through a technological disintermediation; technology as art... Remote had all of these things and more, all incorporated using the available technology at the time. (The medium is the message!)

Those same trends continued on as technology improved: as hundreds of cameras in a single venue became billions of cameras all around us and in every pocket; as capturing a grainy black and white photo on a single debaucherous night and sharing it via email became sharing high resolution 4k sex videos on Grindr and Tinder; as dressing up infrequently for a single night so as to take advantage of the video and photo technology in an unusual venue became constant "dressing up" via creating an entire persona you constantly curate on various social media platforms; as small-time surveillance you willingly went into for fun became ubiquitous surveillance that made trillions of dollars for new hegemonies and entrenched the other powers that be even further; as the "innocent" early internet culture we started with that was all about freedom and revolution and individual power turned ugly and scary following 9/11 and became walled gardens and centralized control. (As another commenter pointed out, Remote opened shortly after 9/11 — we were supposed to open around 9/13, but then the world ended, and we had to push it back a bit.)

Anyway not sure I answered your question fully but hopefully got in the right neighborhood!

pcthrowaway• 3 years ago

Can you share any information on why the Remote Lounge shut down? I took a look and basically just found that it got "seedy" over time: https://ny.eater.com/2007/11/30/6808673/the-shutter-remote-l...

I'm curious if you think web2.0 expanded so rapidly that the novelty of interacting with strangers over a camera was no longer foreign to people (though it seems ChatRoulette didn't even launch until after the shuttering of the Remote Lounge), or if it was just the kind of gimmicky thing that had an expiration date regardless of how the world around us changed during that time period

Bluecobra• 3 years ago

Did the smoking ban change any of the social dynamics in the bar?

nhod14• 3 years ago

Good question — I left in 2002 and the bar smoking ban took full effect in 2003, so I don't really know the answer.

foobarbecue2• 3 years ago

There is a misplaced apostrophe in the title.

foobarbecue2• 3 years ago

I'm curious -- why the downvotes? Does someone think I'm incorrect?

The title here, to me, reads "Way ahead of it is time: The Remote Lounge NYC." I had to think about for a bit before I realized what was going on. I just thought someone might want to correct it.

Edit: I see it's wrong in the original, so we just keep it, I suppose.

ShadowBanThis015• 3 years ago

Looks like the title of this post has been fixed.

People downvote facts here, and persecute you for providing corrections that are helpful to everyone. It's infantile and depressing.

They need to stop and think: How do people learn? Often from reading. Where do people do most of their reading now? Online. So when you attack people who correct incorrect writing online, you're attacking people who want to learn. Most foreign-language speakers, for example, WANT to be corrected so they know how to speak and write the language.

kelnos• 3 years ago

I expect you were downvoted because your post isn't particularly interesting, and won't lead to thoughful discussion, let alone thoughtful discussion about the article in question. Sure, someone who doesn't know the difference between "its" and "it's" might learn something, but, while I'm not going to go so far as to say "that's not what HN is for", it's... well, kinda not what HN is for.

Another -- unfair -- reason is that some posts about grammar and spelling come off has holier-than-thou nitpicking. I don't believe that describes your particular post, but it's hard to convey tone/purpose in text, and people get annoyed by stuff like that.

I didn't downvote you (at 21 hours later, it doesn't matter at this point), but if your post was "in the way" of scrolling to more interesting conversations, I probably would have. I come to the comments on articles because I'm curious about what people are saying about the content of the article (and was thrilled in this case to find that a commenter here was actually the person who built the software that ran this bar). As much as I do believe that language and clarity is important, I don't particularly care if someone mistyped an apostrophe into the article's title. It's just noise to me.

naetius• 3 years ago

*its

bozhark• 3 years ago

This would be really neat today if there were different bars in different places all linked together like this.

No ?, just a really neat concept

chuan_l2• 3 years ago

Love this post and reading about " remote lounge " ! I ran a night in a Chinatown dive bar here in Melbourne , Australia back in 1998 and inspired by the release of FSOL " ISDN " back then we streamed live performances from another club in Adelaide using 2 - bonded ADSL 128 Kbps links. It worked great despite just having enough bandwidth for decent audio and we ran 2 - small parties that were done like this ..

Though my real vision at the time was to have all 4 - walls projection mapped with video from other locations and perhaps create an " in between " space. That could link with different places around the world. There was a project in the UK around 2005 that tried to do this using a circular ring with cameras. However , am surprised that nobody has attempted more with telepresence in public spaces ..

pmayrgundter2• 3 years ago

Super cool! What a great album and bitrate moment :)

robbywashere_• 3 years ago

Probably got demolished and turned into a bank or a Verizon store.

ShadowBanThis015• 3 years ago

Probably not a bank. Banks are getting rid of physical service, not expanding it.

ttmb• 3 years ago

They keep opening new branches around here. They are glorified ATM lobbies with minimal staff who will often direct you to use an ATM for anything that an ATM can do. But they do keep opening them. I sometimes wonder if it's just a complicated real estate investment play.

fortran77• 3 years ago

I know the source article had misspelled "its" and it's policy here to keep the original title, but can we change it to:

    Way ahead of [it's] time: The Remote Lounge NYC (docpop.org)

     Way ahead of it's [sic] time: The Remote Lounge NYC (docpop.org)

so it doesn't hurt readers' brains so much when they try to parse the sentence?

macNchz• 3 years ago

The video by one of the creators (at the very bottom of the page) is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3db-QgHYE

I was too young for this when it happened, but it reminds me a bit of when randomized video chat sites (Chatroulette and others?) first got popular in ~2009. I was a senior in college at the time, and we'd have big house parties during which we'd sit a webcam on top of a TV in the living room and just let it run, connecting to random strangers. Fun and interesting dynamic as people milled around the party and had brief interactions with people from around the world.

Dowwie• 3 years ago

I remember going there! There wasn't a single customer. I felt like something was very wrong and I needed to leave immediately.

bar000n• 3 years ago

(2013)

cglong• 3 years ago

The most interesting thing to me is the timing: this opened just one month after 9/11, the event that ushered in a new era of state-sanctioned surveillance.

karlzt• 3 years ago

This submission comes from this comment from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854960

People in 1920s Berlin nightclubs flirted via pneumatic tubes (2017): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854061 (307 points, 1 day ago, 123 comments)

jb1991• 3 years ago

I celebrated my 35th birthday at this place!

buggythebug• 3 years ago

Lived by here in the early 2000's - went a couple of times. Was kind of cool! Don't remember when it shut down.

betamaxthetape• 3 years ago

An earlier (1968) venue with a similar concept was "The Birds Nest", a pub / nightclub in the UK.

They renamed The King’s Head, an almost brutalist post-war booze bunker at 2 King Street, installing a state-of-the-art steel dance-floor, light-show projectors and a high-end sound system.
They also installed an in-pub telephone network so that if you saw someone you liked the look of, you could dial their table and have a chat across the room.

Source: https://boakandbailey.com/2020/10/watneys-birds-nest-pubs/

[This information comes to me entirely second-hand, through articles and an episode of a podcast, so I can't vouch 100% for the accuracy.]

pauldix• 3 years ago

I went here in November 2001 right after it opened. It was my first time in NYC. I loved it, thought it was so cool. After that trip I decided I’d have to live in this city at some point. Moved here in 2005 and been in NYC ever since. Remote Lounge always reminds me of how magical and full of possibility the city felt (indeed still is!)

pmayrgundter2• 3 years ago

Wow that place looks rad.

Another early one was @Cafe! They broadcast using CU-SeeMe when it came out for testing from Cornell. Back in like 94? smth like 256x256 greyscale, 1-10fps if we were lucky, but a pretty reliable audio channel and text console for group chat.

Anyone here from there? I was critt34 from CMU.

A memory.. I met Seal on it once! He was at a party in LA and the host had CUSeeMe opened on the same reflector @cafe usually hung out on. I was DJ'ing Ministry on the channel from my dorm room at the time and then someone came to comment on the music.. and I suddenly recognized him.. OMG, you're Seal! He laughed and we talked a bit about Koyaanisqatsi and then he said he was helping on the soundtrack for Naqoyqatsi.

Early web/internet days were so enchanting

paulorlando• 3 years ago

I had heard about this place, but sadly never visited. But after it shut down I was part of a startup that built a way for people to do this with audio only -- via phones and a web browser. We intentionally avoided video and images after studying the way strangers interacted across different formats. Remote Lounge looks fun, but for us it was more about long conversations where you didn't care about the other person's looks. I sometimes feel nostalgic for this type of thing.

creer• 3 years ago

Why no "tour" or replication? I understand that night entertainment is in part a novelty industry - but this took a lot of effort and was apparently hugely popular in NYC. Any insight as to why it didn't "tour"? or wasn't replicated? Did it, in fact, loose money overall and/or from the start? What's the deal with the (apparent) lack of replication of bar or nightclub themes?

This is an open question - not specific to Remote Lounge or Meow Wolf or Audium (San Francisco "sound experience") or the several other creative ideas mentioned in the thread. To be fair, one format that was endlessly replicated is the game arcade - without bar initially and with bar now.

Way ahead of its time: The Remote Lounge NYC (2013)

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