Microsoft to support Windows 11 on M1 and M2 Macs through Parallels partnership

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/16/23602718/microsoft-windows-11-apple-mac-m1-m2-support-parallels-virtual-machines

by ta_u • 3 years ago

271 188 3 years ago

jmclnx• 3 years ago

This is good new to people I know at work, for me since at work I use Linux it is a non-issue.

People on MACs need to have 1 proprietary application that is only partially works on MACs (& Linux). So that will make the MAC people happy. On Linux I have a Windows VM in case I need to use that feature.

robertoandred2• 3 years ago

Media Access Control?

Toutouxc3• 3 years ago

Usually writing Macs as MACs is almost a shibboleth among people who have very strong negative feelings towards the platform for some reason. (MAC’s is the ultimate misspelling)

So it’s interesting to see a person who’s apparently neutral write it that way.

layer8• 3 years ago

Misguided Acronym Concoction

xnx2• 3 years ago

Still an ARM version. It's a real shame it's impossible to run x86-64 Windows 10 via Bootcamp on M1/M2. I'm suspicious that the compatibility and performance of ARM Windows on Parallels is good enough to use full time. All other laptop hardware I've used is frustratingly crappy compared to MacBooks.

jborean93• 3 years ago

It's an ARM CPU, why would it run x86-64 natively through Bootcamp?

zsims• 3 years ago

You're worried about performance but want x86 emulation on ARM?

lwkl3• 3 years ago

x86 software runs fine on Windows for ARM nowadays. I've been using it on Parallels for the last year and it has been working great (I don't do any high performance stuff on Windows though).

dividedbyzero2• 3 years ago

Could that also work for to old-ish software, like a decade old or so, or does this require applications to be optimized or compiled for it? And is this something Parallels is required for or could one test that without buying Parallels?

DenisM• 3 years ago

To clarify - you’re using an ARM MacBook to run MacOS, which runs Parallels, which runs ARM Windows, which executes x86 Windows applications?

Toutouxc3• 3 years ago

Just in case you or someone else didn’t know; “Bootcamp” is a tool that allows anyone to set up dual-boot on their Mac without having to touch the bootloader or hunt for drivers. It’s not an emulation or virtualization solution, which is why it wouldn’t work with x86 Windows.

xnx2• 3 years ago

I know it's impossible, it's just a bummer that I can only pick 2 from: quality Macbook hardware, x86 Windows, native performance.

zozbot234• 3 years ago

There's no Bootcamp on M1/M2 hardware as of yet. But the Asahi folks have a standard UEFI implementation, so it would be possible to run ARM64 Windows if drivers for the Apple silicon were available.

zamadatix7• 3 years ago

The biggest compatibility hurdle was the lack of DirectX 12 support in Parallels. Otherwise the performance and compatibility of ARM based Windows was fantastic, I used my MacBook almost exclusively in the Windows Parallels VM for about 6 months. Microsoft has had their own ARM based devices for a long time so they've built up a great x86 translation layer.

crazygringo• 3 years ago

Genuinely wonder what took this long. Was it a new decision around legal/strategy, just a low priority, or something technical that wasn't built by Parallels/Microsoft till now?

radlad• 3 years ago

I am confused because I have been using Windows 11 through Parallels for probably 6 months. Parallels automatically downloaded the ISO for me and everything.

zamadatix7• 3 years ago

You were technically breaking the Windows 11 EULA and not officially supported while doing that but nobody really cared.

lwkl3• 3 years ago

The rumor is that it's because Microsoft has an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm [1].

[1] https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomm-exclusivity-deal-mic...

cat_plus_plus• 3 years ago

Microsoft now has to offer support for a niche use case and with host OS and virtualization app no under their control. Probably costs serious money and took a big customer interested in mass deploying the VM to commit to that.

lostmsu• 3 years ago

Through Parallels.

neogodless• 3 years ago

For some clarity, see https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially...

These licensing problems haven't technically stopped people from running the Arm version of Windows on other hardware, including Apple Silicon Macs
Microsoft is formally blessing Parallels as a way to run the Professional and Enterprise versions of Windows 11 on Apple Silicon Macs

Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin...

Parallels® Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution

In other words, you could (unofficially) do this before, but now it's allowed according to the terms of your license.

jasoneckert• 3 years ago

Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin...

It looks like Parallels has the same restrictions that you'd get from running Win11 ARM inside the UTM hypervisor on M1/M2 Macs (like I currently do): No WSL/WSA and no virtualization based security or sandboxes.

gjsman-10004• 3 years ago

It's not perfect, but if you buy Parallels, it does have automated ARM-based setup of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Kali. Which makes more sense anyway - then you are running 2 VMs on your host, instead of a VM and a VM inside a VM (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM).

aseipp• 3 years ago

Does Hyper-V not support nested virtualization? Or maybe macOS doesn't support it. Because M2 chips absolutely have FEAT_NV2 so nested virt should work well; only ARM system around with it. One more win for Asahi Linux, I guess.

singularity2001• 3 years ago

Why would you need WSL/WSA when Mac is already a *NIX?

theodric• 3 years ago

Ok but why on Earth would you run WSL in Windows on macOS when you could just run Linux on macOS or (gasp) use the UNIX layer in macOS for your hackery? Does WSL have some special sauce I'm missing out on? I never found it more compelling than more mature solutions like Cygwin, docker, or a regular VM.

dev_tty01• 3 years ago

I've had a licensed copy of Win11 Arm running in Parallels for months. I just installed the dev version as mentioned in the AT article. At first it wouldn't let me buy a license, but at some point a few months ago it allowed me to buy a license and that has been fine ever since. Runs great. Good that the support has become official now.

simongr3dal• 3 years ago

I guess that means there's no hope that we will ever see Windows running natively on Apple Silicon.

cecida2• 3 years ago

I'd like that. I'm a big fan of the whole design and build of the Macbook Pro, but macOS is starting to feel very dated.

randomopining• 3 years ago

What about it is dated? and is windows better?

fragmede3• 3 years ago

Maybe. There are ARM builds of windows, we just need to drivers for Apple Silicon.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins...

zamadatix7• 3 years ago

The ARM builds are precisely what Parallels is using here. The only piece left in doubt is Microsoft will bother to make drivers/use a boot compatibility layer and Apple has already said they aren't going to do it via bootcamp this time.

zone411• 3 years ago

Does anyone have experience running Visual Studio (not VSCode) in Parallels? I'd like to update my older MacBook Pro with Boot Camp but I'm not leaving Windows Visual Studio for a poor native Mac version.

gjsman-10004• 3 years ago

The Parallels desktop experience is shockingly well-accelerated. I played 1440p video from YouTube in a Microsoft Edge window (not in full-screen though) and didn't notice any appearance of dropped frames. Animations in Windows are smoother than they are on my 8th Gen Core i3 desktop.

As for full-blown Visual Studio, there is an ARM version now with most (but not all) workloads available. YMMV if you rely on those unavailable workloads or if you have x86/x64 DLLs in your project, but this has improved substantially I believe with Windows 11 ARM now supporting 64-bit/x64 translation (whereas Windows 10 ARM only supported 32-bit/x86 officially outside of Insider previews).

babypuncher2• 3 years ago

Assuming you're doing .NET development, have you looked at JetBrains Rider?

I haven't spent much time with it myself but a lot of my colleagues swear by it even on Windows.

quaffapint• 3 years ago

This. We use Rider daily on our M1s. I used to be a big fan of Visual Studio, but really loving Rider and it works as great on the Mac as it does Windows (assuming you're not working with legacy NET Framework). The only bugs we ever really run into is around Docker on the M1s, but with the current releases everything is working fine.

bigtex3• 3 years ago

Rider on Mac is head and shoulders above VS for Windows, and the speed is addictive on the M1 Macs.

Sakos• 3 years ago

Parallels performance is really good. I haven't used VS specifically but it'll only choke if I'm trying demanding games. It's quite impressive.

bigtex3• 3 years ago

I use VS 2019 in Parallels with SSRS/SSIS and .Net Framework projects with little issues. I did have a problem with IIS Express breaking after each Windows update (fixed by uninstalled it and downloading the most recent from Msft) but that seems to have fixed. Now that Rider has an ARM build I use that for my 1 remaining .Net Framework project and it works fine.

danjc• 3 years ago

Sibling comments here don't square with my experience running VS2022 under Parallels on M1 MacBook Pro. I found it unusably slow for regular work and ended up moving back to a Dell laptop. This was a year back so perhaps things have changed, curious to know if anything has changed.

sgjohnson4• 3 years ago

The Mac version of Visual Studio isn't even Visual Studio. It's a glorified MonoDevelop.

kristianp• 3 years ago

The original source[1] only says it's authorised through parallels, not how to do it. Will parallels soon take you to microsoft link that requires payment I wonder?

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin...

gjsman-10004• 3 years ago

Parallels now automatically downloads Windows 11 and sets it up for you (including skipping Microsoft account), just tried today. However, it is not an activated Windows install, and it will take you to the Store asking you to purchase a Windows 11 Pro license for $199, but you can use it unactivated with the typical non-activated Windows restrictions. According to internet commentators, Windows 11 Pro x86/x64 retail keys are now acceptable whereas they previously were not, so if you have any of those lying around (or a Windows 10, or 8.1, or 7 Pro key as they are often grandfathered-in), they'll do the trick.

Which, if you are buying Windows for this purpose, I'd strongly recommend just buying a retail package. If you buy in the Microsoft Store, it will be tied to your Microsoft Account which isn't really desirable, as retail keys are transferrable between computers [1] whereas OEM keys and MSA-purchased keys aren't.

[1] Many people don't know this - don't buy the OEM version of Windows for $20 cheaper. It will be tied to your unique hardware - but retail keys won't. Upgrade your workstation three years from now? If you have a retail key, you can wipe Windows from your old PC and activate on the new one, completely within the license, with no need to purchase again.

kiwijamo2• 3 years ago

My Windows key is tied to my Microsoft account and it's survived several changes of computers. Interesting that this is not the case for those keys purchased thu the store. TIL.

sgjohnson4• 3 years ago

don't buy the OEM version of Windows for $20 cheaper. It will be tied to your unique hardware

Not only that, but with the OEM version you won't actually have a valid license. Yes, Windows will activate and none will be the wiser, but legally speaking, you still won't have a license.

And at that point you might as well run a KMS emulator for $0.

mattcantstop• 3 years ago

I am at a weird spot right now, where I have teenagers who want to play games that are on Windows, but am not wanting to do that through emulation like Parallels. But I am also not willing to purchase a Windows machine as my primary machine. So it leaves me not moving to Apple Silicon and just keeping my old Mac despite wanting to upgrade.

cloudking• 3 years ago

Have you looked at GeForce Now as an option?

manmal• 3 years ago

Some games work great through Parallels, like Left4Dead 2. Others work via CrossOver. But support is not that broad unfortunately. I hope things improve vastly once Asahi Linux can run Proton - Valve has added Linux support to so many games already (for the Steam Deck).

ozarker• 3 years ago

ARM support will be a hurdle for those games even with proton.

jraph• 3 years ago

wine, on macOS or on a linux dual boot on your current Mac (with Proton), maybe?

zamadatix7• 3 years ago

Yeah the hardware is fantastic but ARM->x86, Windows->Mac (or virtualization), and OpenGL/DirectX/Vulkan -> Metal is just too many translation layers to give a quality or reliable experience unless you cherry pick titles. Not to mention you run into a lot of DRMs that don't work because they assume a x86 Windows kernel to interact with.

Of course if you're alternative is to remain on your current Mac then you could just as well upgrade to the new one anyways and leave the old one dedicated towards Windows based gaming.

bluetidepro• 3 years ago

As someone else pointed out, check out GeForce Now. It's cloud gaming, and works crazy good. Been using it for a bit now.

drexlspivey• 3 years ago

The library is rather limited unfortunately

LightHugger• 3 years ago

Depending on the game, kids using that would be extremely disappointed at the input latency

spaceguillotine• 3 years ago

What about a SteamDeck for the Teens? Add a dock and its a full desktop experience with support for dual monitors for around the price of a base level Mac Mini but also portable.

scarface74• 3 years ago

Where is the issue? Buy them their own computer.

jmpman• 3 years ago

My kids have started in robotics competition. SolidWorks has provided incredible licenses for free. Can’t run SolidWorks on Mac. So I had to buy them a desktop with a discrete NVIDIA GPU, upgraded the RAM, got them a low latency 32” monitor. Found my old Steam account still works…

Kids…

economist420• 3 years ago

Have you tried Crossover? It's a fork Wine with good support for lots of windows games. Very good performance on M1 for lots of games, even in benchmarks the m1 performs is comparable to the highest end windows machines.

elforce002• 3 years ago

Why would I do that? This is an honest question. I recently bought a Mac Mini coming from MSFT and I don't miss windows at all. I don't have to fight with it anymore when programming and testing things.

jan_Inkepa• 3 years ago

some software is windows only, especially most games (if not by number, then by feeling if you're in the pc gaming world).

zuhsetaqi2• 3 years ago

Testing cross platform developed apps would be an other reason

stuart78• 3 years ago

There are plenty of apps or features that remain Windows exclusive. In Microsoft's office suite, things like PowerBI only offer Windows desktop apps. And even within apps like Powerpoint there are features that don't exist in the Mac version (like grids). There are certainly equivalent or better alternatives to both of these examples available on Mac, but if your company uses these products Parallels could be a better alternative to having a second PC.

zerocrates• 3 years ago

I haven't really loved Mac OS in a while, so I could see you could want the very nice Mac hardware but a different operating system. I never really did Windows-on-Mac much, besides some very occasional Boot Camp usage, but I did run Linux on a couple different Mac laptops for several years.

I don't think it really makes much sense now though... no particularly good reason not to just get a Dell XPS or something in that ballpark for your Linux or Windows needs and avoid the hassle.

The sheer absurdity of running Linux tools on WSL inside Parallels inside a Mac host might be worth something, too. (Or actually, can you even do that, with two levels of virtualization? I seem to remember this is an issue, maybe specifically on the new ARM chips.)

dustedcodes• 3 years ago

It’s not for you, it’s a way for Microsoft employees and Windows fanboys finally being officially able to buy good hardware and run Windows on it. I can’t imagine how awful it must be for all those Windows bros to see everyone else work on amazing M2 hardware whilst they are trodding behind on the shit show that the entire Surface brand is.

AlexeyBrin• 3 years ago

Except that you won't run on the amazing M2 hardware but in a VM which is slower than running on real hardware.

bigtex3• 3 years ago

I have moved all my development to my Mac (C#, Sql Server) except I need Visual Studio for .Net Framework, SSIS and SSRS projects. Visual Studio for Windows ARM recently came out but doesn't work with most extensions, so I still use VS 2019.

massysett3• 3 years ago

My dentist has some proprietary software to administer her practice (I don't think it does everything - maybe keeps X ray images, and some other stuff.) It's Windows only and she runs it in a Windows XP virtual machine of some kind. But all the computers in the office are Macs. She upgraded to the M1 iMacs but the old Windows software doesn't work in there. So she kept an old Intel Mac in a corner somewhere to run the software.

If she could run that in Arm Windows in a window on a Mac I'm sure she would.

fragmede3• 3 years ago

She's a dentist, not an IT professional. Windows apps run on Apple Silicon, even if she does not know how.

robertoandred2• 3 years ago

Emulating Windows XP on Apple silicon Macs should be plenty fast for that purpose.

mvac3• 3 years ago

Technically you can use any Windows 11 licence key (or even Win 10) to activate Windows 11 Arm in Parallels. Have been using it since last december and so far it has been much better experience than with any Windows PC...

nwatson• 3 years ago

I used a Windows 7 or 8 license left over from an old MSDN subscription to activate Windows 11 on UTM/macOS successfully.

mvac3• 3 years ago

Do you find UTM to be “good enough” or lacking certain features? Tbh I find it quite amusing that Windows license costs less (in the EU) than Parallels for year.

tony69• 3 years ago

What do you use windows arm for? The Windows-only software I use only works on x86 Windows. Obviously it’s subjective, but my god, windows is so bad.

mvac3• 3 years ago

I switched to Mac, but still sometimes need the full Visual Studio for work. VS for Mac is a joke and I don’t believe that even its developers use it.

olliej3• 3 years ago

"apple has shown no signs of supporting bootcamp"

By what measure? Is the verge expecting x86 windows?

Tsiklon3• 3 years ago

I believe the Verge and others are hopeful for a resurrection of the bootcamp application to support natively running ARM Windows on ARM Mac hardware. Much in the same way as they did when they sold Intel Mac hardware

olliej3• 3 years ago

You can install other OSs, as the asahi folk have shown - and they’re not a massively profitable corporation with billions of dollars of cash

steve_adams_862• 3 years ago

I'm not relevant as a potential customer, but what I'd really like is Direct X 12 support so I could play various games in Parallels. Unfortunately I can't see that happening in a way that yields a worthwhile user experience any time soon.

I'm not a huge gamer but I feel like I might actually need to buy a Windows PC to play several games at some point. The list is growing. Right now I'd love to play HiFi Rush, but there's no possible way on an M1 Mac at the moment.

Miraste• 3 years ago

Every year Apple talks about their commitment to gaming, and every year macOS gaming gets worse. It was never in great shape, but switching to Metal, dropping 32-bit support, and launching Apple Silicon killed it deader than a doornail. Then there was the whole Epic debacle, and the Xbox/game streaming apps debacle, and the (multiple) Nvidia debacles... The benefits of those choices usually outweigh the loss, but they mean there will never be significant games on Macs again.

I expect killing their relationships with every game company in the world will make their VR headset efforts rather painful.

fooker2• 3 years ago

will make their VR headset efforts rather painful.

That's why they don't have one on the market.

VHRanger• 3 years ago

They have a commitment to (mobile) gaming

bil72• 3 years ago

for m1 gaming, nintendo switch emulation works surprisingly well with ryujinx

https://blog.ryujinx.org/the-impossible-port-macos/

massysett3• 3 years ago

I expect killing their relationships with every game company in the world will make their VR headset efforts rather painful.

That VR headset is going to be a lot more like an iPhone or iPad than a Mac and there's no shortage of games on iOS; they'll be just fine.

WoodenChair• 3 years ago

There was actually a time in Mac gaming in the late '90s through early '00s where most blockbuster strategy games would get ported to Mac OS. And this was when there were way fewer Macs in circulation than there are today. For example Rise of Nations, Age of Mythology, Age of Empires II, Company of Heroes, etc. all had Mac native ports. Today, I'd like to play Age of Empires IV and Company of Heroes 3 but I'll probably need to get a PC for that.

Tsiklon3• 3 years ago

Anecdata: I play a silly amount of World of Tanks on PC (DX11), running the x86 Windows release through parallels on the Mac is significantly more performant than it is to run it on MacOS via the official codeweavers wine wrapper.

This is likely due to only one layer of translation being done in MacOS, as opposed to the two of Wine.

I really hope this leads to performance enhancements with windows clients on parallels

quyleanh• 3 years ago

I still keep the opinion that Microsoft shouldn’t support Windows Bootcamp on Apple Silicon device, since it will affect to the Windows market share.

rswail7• 3 years ago

Microsoft probably doesn't care about Windows market share on actual native hardware.

They are moving their business customers onto the cloud. Microsoft Windows 365 is what they want people on. Monthly subscriptions and streamed remote desktop.

They want people using their apps, Office 365 is already available on MacOS.

Inviz• 3 years ago

8gb memory limitation in parallels is crippling it

Tsiklon3• 3 years ago

You can run with more memory in parallels’ pro SKU. Albeit at increased cost.

lopkeny12ko• 3 years ago

A lot of the commenters in this thread are either very young, or completely forgot about the "embrace, extend, extinguish" era of Microsoft in the 90s and 00s.

rswail7• 3 years ago

To really remember, let's assume a person needed to be 15 around 2005. Those people are now 33. Not what I'd call "very young".

Microsoft was founded 40+ years ago. It's changed over that time. So has Apple.

So has the entire IT market.

yieldcrv• 3 years ago

I totally forgot about not having Bootcamp or ARM Windows on the M series Macbooks

I suggest you all totally forget about it too

bigmadwolf• 3 years ago

This is a good win for Microsoft. Think of all the extra Windows ARM QA telemetry they will get which will improve the platform in the long run.

Microsoft to support Windows 11 on M1 and M2 Macs through Parallels partnership

Related Stories