I failed three job applications, here's what I learned

https://alexewerlof.substack.com/p/3-job-applications

by henrik_w • 4 years ago

41 59 4 years ago

alexewerlof.substack.com

unixhero• 4 years ago

3??? To fail 3 is less than expected generally

nidnogg• 4 years ago

A lot less at that. The title almost reads like satire. Also odd that the author is thinking of charging for pro-tips at the end of each blog post.

tkiolp42• 4 years ago

I guess it depends. Europe and US is different in this regard (tech jobs). Whenever I look for a job, the numbers are:

- around 15 potential companies I’m interested in working for (after spending some time on the internet)

- I apply to 10 or so

- 2 or so never answer

- I don’t pass the first call for 1 company

- 5 answer me

- I fail the tech interview with half of them

- I pass the whole interview with 2 or 3, from which I select 1

hnarn2• 4 years ago

This entire post gives me "the ick" as the kids say nowadays. The author is revealing lots of information about the company's infrastructure, given to him in an interview, as well as directly linking to the personal LinkedIn-profiles of the people he is name-dropping.

I don't know what to call this. Aggressive networking, maybe? First of all, three interviews is nothing, and secondly, the "lessons learned" are trivial to say the least:

1. If you're not X, don't apply for X positions.

2. Don't apply to jobs you don't want, and don't question the company's existence

3. Network

I'm sorry to say this but the one thing I get out of this post is that this person is bad at compromise, is rough around the edges and plays fast and loose. I can see why any of those things alone would be a red flag in an initial interview with someone you know almost nothing about.

paulcarroty• 4 years ago

The author is revealing lots of information about the company's infrastructure, given to him in an interview

That info should be public by design anyway.

hnarn2• 4 years ago

That's not the point. Of course any information given to a candidate in an interview should not be privileged -- the point is that the fact that this is how things "should be" does not mean that it's an implicit agreement to share the information you get with the general public. This should be obvious to anyone.

arnvald• 4 years ago

Possibly, but I don't think it's up to the post author to decide.

exitb• 4 years ago

It highlights the tendency to overshare, thus hurts his future job prospects. Employers are typically hoping their employees don't play journalists, publicly writing a story about the company on the side.

Manfred• 4 years ago

The name dropping feels really weird, it almost makes it feel like a personal diary that should never have been published.

veidr2• 4 years ago

Hmm, I read your comment and expected to agree with it, but... ¯\_(ಠ_ಠ)_/¯

I found it mildly interesting, and not very scandalous. I mean, sure, when we are interviewing/hiring people, I suspect almost all of us wish we could just keep everything off the record, but... would that really be a good thing for human civilization? I'm skeptical. Anyway, we can't.

Definitely, three interviews is nothing in the sense of "I interviewed at THREE COMPANIES and got ZERO JOBS!!" but it is (again, mildly) interesting in the sense of "I did some interviews and here's how the non-successful ones went."

Anyway, I suspect if we had (a lot) more of this kind of blog post, the net effect on the interviewing/hiring process would be positive... (?)

ghaff8• 4 years ago

"I interviewed at THREE COMPANIES and got ZERO JOBS!!"

I think that sense is one thing that's bugging some people. Though you also get the vibe on here from some often enough that (at least until recently) if you walk off the job Friday and don't have four offers in hand in a week or two, there's something wrong with you.

Personally I could have done without naming people and companies. It's not like it's confidential in general but it doesn't really add anything and, personally, I wouldn't have done it.

cheschire• 4 years ago

Somewhere there’s a 23 year old newbie that hasn’t learned these “trivial” lessons.

Is there a name for the bias when someone thinks what they know is common knowledge? I seem to run into that often here on HN.

a4isms2• 4 years ago

This is an absolutely evergreen comment, so much so that an appropriately worded version belongs in the guidelines, something like:

“Before dismissing something as common knowledge or obvious, consider the vast disparities in education, experience, and cultural backgrounds of HN readers. What may be obvious or trivial to you may be revelatory to someone else.”

dan-robertson• 4 years ago

I don’t feel like the author was really giving away anything that was meant to be secret. They also only linked to people whom they had good opinions of, though I feel like it’s a little weird.

The lessons learned didn’t feel terribly interesting but they felt more like ‘this is what I learned’ than ‘here’s some advice for you’. Maybe the author is just blogging about their life.

jfk13• 4 years ago

This comment (which I read before looking at the post) made me think we're talking about someone fresh from college (or boot camp, or whatever) who hasn't yet "settled in" to how the world of employment works.

But no: apparently "I've done hundreds of interviews in the past few years to hire the best talent". Feels a bit odd...

conradfr• 4 years ago

If I get fired or quit during the first year of moving to Canada, I would have to pay back all the expenses for the nice mobility package.

Is it legally enforceable to make you pay back those expanses if you're fired (at least without cause)?

pluijzer• 4 years ago

Could be that the candidate starts with a contract for a years so being fired in this time would mean it is not without cause.

astura3• 4 years ago

Relocation stipends are pretty much always paid contingent on signing an agreement that if your employment ceases within X timeframe (no matter the cause) then you have to pay it back, or at least part of it. If an employee has a problem agreeing to such a provision, then they simply don't get the stipend and they have to relocate on their own dime.

If you owe any money would depend on the exact wording of whatever agreement was signed. It probably says "for any reason."

radres• 4 years ago

What it says on a contract does not make it enforceable. Original question is asking "if it is enforceable".

gregshap• 4 years ago

Don't know about Canada. In the US employers rarely (but not never) attempt to enforce when someone is laid off or fired not-for-cause.

hanifbbz4• 4 years ago

Good to know. Thanks for sharing.

belter• 4 years ago

I have something important to tell you...but first, login in here...

theklr• 4 years ago

That’s more with the chosen platform, Substack, than with the author

levesque• 4 years ago

All the popular platforms have the most obnoxious log-in banners / pop-ups. Looking at you medium.

alkonaut• 4 years ago

It’s an annoying popup but no login is required, just dismiss the popup.

makach• 4 years ago

I don't want to work for a company that doesn't want to work with me.

Also, don't forget your perspective. They think they are interviewing you, but the reality is that you are interviewing them.

Also, from the post "don't apply to a specialist position if you are a generalist" ... wth?! If they have a top down approach to how they perceive themselves and you, cut the cord and run away. Everyone has to start somewhere, and in tech, often specialization comes over time.

TrackerFF• 4 years ago

From time to time I head over to cscareerquestions at Reddit - a place predominantly populated by college students and fresh junior candidates. I see users there applying for hundreds of positions - I don't think I've ever applied for more than 15 positions in my life. Since 2014 I've applied for 8 positions, as I've documented those in a spreadsheet I still have.

So while failing "only" 3 job applications may seem comically low for many people, it's on par with my experience (should be mentioned that I, like the OP, am also from Scandinavia. Maybe a different culture from the US?).

BlargMcLarg• 4 years ago

1: The US is different. Way more applicants and traffic than the remainder of the world. This also affects selection mechanisms (low accuracy, high filtering, little feedback) and application strategies (various levels of effort, shotgun approach).

2: The first job is by far the hardest. Everything else is peanuts comparatively (unless you're an outlier).

Clue is this piece:

I can’t recall the reference but I read in a book that it’s 10x easier to find a job while you’re already employed. My experience complies. Don’t waste that multiplier.

When company A thinks someone is worthy of picking, companies B-F suddenly believe that individual is worthy of picking too. One door opens, suddenly they all open.

Combine both and it starts to make sense why application numbers are so ridiculously high.

joenot4432• 4 years ago

CSCQ is a funny place. I think it’s sort of a community of squeaky wheels, people with a problem or a bone to pick, so reading the posts one would think CS is a much more stressful career than it is in reality.

/r/Overemployed is even stranger, that’s a level of gamification and min-maxing being applied to your career even us in tech find queasy.

dustincoates• 4 years ago

It makes sense when you realize that, just like a relationships or beginner workout forum, the people who stick around are the ones that have been least successful: if you've gotten a job, a relationship, or in shape, you're less likely to be in a forum dedicated to asking for advice.

astura3• 4 years ago

Obviously, the US has a vastly different job market than Sweden.

The US has a really tight job market for Jr engineers - there's a massive supply of new grads, my Jr engineer job posting for a small company outside of a major city get hundreds of responses.

sarchertech2• 4 years ago

How many of those responses are actually new grads though. I also get hundreds of responses but it’s probably closer to 1/20 who have recently graduated from a 4 year CS program.

Even ignoring CS degrees most of the applicants are clearly unqualified and are just applying to every job they can. A very quick resume screen will filter our applicants down to a handful.

ghaff8• 4 years ago

Between on-campus interviews and just sending out a ton of generic cover letters and resumes, I applied (for some level of "apply") to a lot of places out of my two stints at grad school (pre-Web)--and had three offers in one case and one in the other. However, since then, I've applied to three jobs (in the sense of calling up someone I knew) and got all three.

birdyrooster• 4 years ago

I like when people over share so that it’s less weird when I do it

vouaobrasil2• 4 years ago

I failed many more, getting to various stages but not passing. The #1 thing I learned when looking back is that I wasn't a good fit for any of them. I was just desperate for a job.

Double_a_92• 4 years ago

Isn't it normal that most people (even the one that actually end up getting the job) are not a perfect or even good fit? I've never seen any job ad where I said, yeah I totally fulfill all those requirements.

vouaobrasil2• 4 years ago

That is true. However, I am one of those people that I either really cares a lot or hardly at all when I do something...if something is interesting to me I really put passion into it but if not then I am totally uninterested, and I think that showed up in my interviews for sure.

tkiolp42• 4 years ago

I knew how to make a product e2e but my understanding of the event loop wasn’t beyond what you could Google and read on blogs.

This is me. Exactly. That’s why I would never be able to work for FAANG.

azangru• 4 years ago

That’s why I would never be able to work for FAANG.

I sincerely doubt FAANG has no use for regular web developers, or that web developers there need to know C++ internals of Node.

wildrhythms• 4 years ago

The first part of that quote that you omitted alludes to Datadog (not a FAANG) looking for a C++ dev which the author later admits they are not. Why did the author apply to the job knowing they would be unprepared?

FTA: >They needed a JavaScript master AND C++ developer who could contribute to Node.js core on DataDog’s behalf. They needed a specialist. Alas, that wasn’t me. I had worked with frontend, backend, serverless, mobile, even graphic design and UX. But not exclusively with Node.js core

ghaff8• 4 years ago

Well, companies post lots of requirements that they aren't necessarily wed to. (Though I would have thought a hard requirement for C++, if that wasn't on their resume, wouldn't have passed an initial screen.)

vizzah• 4 years ago

The most interesting bit to me (as a concerned stock hodler) was indeed how is Spotify managing to get away with so much free stuff (and a VR room?!) for employees, while still burning investor's money.

hanifbbz4• 4 years ago

Would be fun to sit in the room where they motivated it: "we need a kick ass office to hire the best talent to be able to maximize the ..." I don't know where I was going with this! I have no clue how they got away with it :D

PainfullyNormal3• 4 years ago

She wrote that she assessed that I don't talk like their staff engineers.

I've heard this from other people, too. Is talking the talk really this important to employers looking to hire staff engineers? And if it is, why?

ghaff8• 4 years ago

I'd say that for senior positions generally companies are looking for qualities that go beyond technical expertise (where in coding or something else). This includes communication skills, poise, etc.

PainfullyNormal3• 4 years ago

What you're describing applies to all jobs everywhere, including junior and non-technical positions. Nobody hires strictly on technical expertise.

hanifbbz4• 4 years ago

In this particular case I guess questioning the business model of the company by bringing some controversy on the first interaction wasn't very strategic. Maybe the staff engineers they have hired don't do that!

PainfullyNormal3• 4 years ago

I doubt that was the deal breaker. I always question the company's business model in the interview. If they can't defend their business model to an applicant, how can they possibly do so to investors, customers, and/or other companies looking to make strategic partnerships? Their due diligence is far more severe than mine (or the author's).

I asked the question because it's not the first time I've heard something similar to "learn to talk like other staff engineers". I've heard it a few times, I've read/heard other people being told some variation of it, and it even shows up in the Staff Engineer book by Will Larson. I was hoping to get more insight from people either hiring Staff engineers or other Staff engineers themselves.

I failed three job applications, here's what I learned

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