DHS announces extension of Real ID full enforcement deadline

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/12/05/dhs-announces-extension-real-id-full-enforcement-deadline

by bookofjoe • 4 years ago

92 225 4 years ago

a2tech• 4 years ago

Maybe we can just extend it forever and drop it. And dissolve DHS at the same time as well.

Real ID was originally supposed to take in effect in 2008, so it's been delayed 17 years at this point, which is absurd. It was created 20 years before it would take effect.

Why is it still being pursued?

Arrath• 4 years ago

I feel like the "It is 2386, the government sends its annual delegation to Brussels to ask for a Brexit Extension. The people know not why, only that it is sacred tradition." meme applies here. The delay in implementation is ridiculous, bordering parody if we didn't know it was real life.

noodlesUK• 4 years ago

I wish this were the case with brexit.

rtkwe4• 4 years ago

DHS still wants to have more secure and validated IDs but states aren't issuing them as default so a lot of people take the easier licensing/ID option when they renew. My state, NC, doesn't issue them as default or even really push them at all. So the problem at the federal level is you have states and people not getting the IDs so making the transition to requiring REAL ID for flights etc would be potentially very disruptive.

mynameisvlad8• 4 years ago

I mean, I get that DHS still wants it, but... Why?

It might have made sense in 2005 with the post-2001 political climate, but it's 20 years later. We've been fine with the current IDs for so long, and the climate is not anywhere near the same now as it was then with relation to security theater.

elashri2• 4 years ago

Not only this, Things are very confusing for people. During checking at my last flight I asked the officer about if Ohio ID would be sufficient for the real ID requirement. She couldn't answer because she didn't know how they issue it these days. If this a TSA officer, what about ordinary people?

mistrial9• 4 years ago

California has had problems with large scale ID counterfeiting, which they really, really do not want to talk about

Second item is an analogy.. when cash for transit here was changing to an electronic ID, the BART transit agency found excuse after excuse to delay.. later, a finance officer said in a public forum "we have a cash flow and we control that" .. much later, things changed somewhat. I believe that Federal vs State govt is simply at odds over the endless self-employment of administering these ID programs, and who calls the shots... and they should be ! Fed growth is virtually a one-way ratchet in practice.

sylens• 4 years ago

This is it. States need to rip the band-aid off (or be forced to) so that people will be forced to get a Real ID at their next license renewal. Only then will this deadline pass without being extended

landemva5• 4 years ago

REAL ID for flights

I have flown twice in the past few years without ID when I misplaced my wallet. TSA made me sign a form which basically said nothing useful. Children fly without ID. It's about control not about flight safety.

helpfulclippy• 4 years ago

Because the feds are very patient about these things. They knew that with consistent pressure, the holdout states would trickle on board, which is exactly what has happened. A couple states like Oregon held out until just the past few years, but now even they will give you a REAL ID.

lost_tourist3• 4 years ago

Texas held out for a really long time too

riffic2• 4 years ago

terrists.

which these days are likely to be citizens. See this weekend's domestic terrorism event involving power substances being shot at in North Carolina:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/attack-on-north-carolina-power-...

lost_tourist3• 4 years ago

true, our next 9/11 will much more likely be of the Oklahoma City bombing variety rather than foreign terrorists.

somrand02• 4 years ago

because as the world becomes a more chaotic and unstable place, the price of freedom (which is risk) also increases.

I think that maybe "real ID" has been delayed because USA truly has been the most free country on earth (at the cost of poorer places not near the USA). And this kind of policy diminishes people's freedom. However given the current climate scenario, as well as the current geopolitical looming war.

So that's why it's being pursued, because more chaos, less stability in the system, raises the cost of freedom, and the system has to know whose insurance premiums to raise. You gotta track and measure the people to do this (i.e. to control them).

ThePowerOfFuet• 4 years ago

USA truly has been the most free country on earth

LOL.

hprotagonist• 4 years ago

At a certain point, one has to suspect that it just ain't gonna happen.

toast03• 4 years ago

I certainly suspected it. I've declined to get a real ID everytime, because it seems like it won't actually be required, and if it is, I have a passport I could carry, and get a real ID for convenience at the next license renewal.

In other words, why pay for it now, if it keeps getting pushed back, and likely will continue to get pushed back.

rtkwe4• 4 years ago

Does it cost more for you? My state doesn't charge any more for them you just have to bring the extra documentation which in your case (in my state though I think the requirements are the same everywhere) would be your passport you already have.

Msw242• 4 years ago

I can't renew my driver's license online anymore until I prove my citizenship.

Alright, fine, I have my birth certificate, and I took it to the DPS.

Well I can't just walk in... I have to make an appointment online. Alright, fine...

But appointments are booked solid for 2 months.

So I guess I'm driving with an expired license until then.

Minor49er• 4 years ago

I brought in multiple documents to prove my identity because I heard a lot of stories of people getting turned down for not having any documents. I also saw it first-hand while waiting at the DMV to renew. I finally get to the front counter. The lady working there eyed my folder of docs, then snarkily said "you know, less is more". I hate the DMV.

monksy• 4 years ago

Tried to get it when changing my address after moving in IL.

Documents weren't perfect. Also you have to let the address settle after moving and getting a new id. (I.e. utility bills that aren't printed out with your address on them)

Short end of the story, I could have done an address change online quicker. Also, use my GE card as my fed id now. (Real Id)

throwaway7424• 4 years ago

If I were you I would print out a copy of my appointment and keep it with my registration.

alexb_• 4 years ago

The fact that the US Government does not have an actual ID card is absurd. A lot of problems - especially voting related ones! - can be solved by having an actual method of identification (not SSN). We're the only country where this is still a problem.

dotBen• 4 years ago

No, UK not only has no ID card but also doesn't have the equivalent of an SSN. The National Insurance number serves the same primary purpose as SSN, for associating tax payments, but it doesn't otherwise serve as a unique identifier for each citizen - it's not used on credit card applications for example. UK has lower %age of drivers than US due to strong public transport, so mandating a drivers license for ID isn't feasible.

The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which bizarrely allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to be used. (it's being brought in by our conservative government for same reason as US - to disenfranchise certain voter blocks - hence why a senior citizen rail card is fine but a youth or normal adult one is not)

ZanyProgrammer3• 4 years ago

Ok but the UK is also an outlier.

was_a_dev2• 4 years ago

The UK just bought in new ID rules for voting which bizarrely allow for things like a senior citizen rail card to be used.

Yepp, Oyster 60+ Card is valid for voting, but a Student 18+ Card isn't

stonemetal12• 4 years ago

In the US we say "driver's license" because 90+% of the population has one, but the portion of the population who doesn't wish to drive can get a State ID card. The only difference between an ID card and a driver's license is on the back where it lists what types of vehicles you are allowed to drive and what types of restrictions have been placed on your driving them.

In the UK how do you prevent minors from buying alcohol if you don't have some sort of ID with DOB on it?

wdb2• 4 years ago

Voting is pretty bizarre. I voted for some local elections and they didn't even check my ID. I had to tell my name they checked my name on the list and I could vote. I could then come back a few hours later again in name of a flat mate of who was on vacation.

rwbt3• 4 years ago

I'd rather have a federated ID system like what we have currently with state drivers licenses/voter id systems. Social Security Number/TIN is already used as a unique identifier for all financial transactions anyways.

It's messy and complex at times, but in the long run I'd rather deal with a bunch of small state level bureaucracies than a giant federal behemoth that barely functions (looking at you IRS).

xxpor• 4 years ago

The single time I've ever had an issue with the IRS - I forgot to sign a 1080X - They sent me a letter, I signed it, and everything was perfectly fine. They collect a massive amount of payments and paperwork every year. I don't know how you could say they're barely functioning.

The DMV on the other hand is the joke in American culture about incompetent bureaucracies.

woodruffw2• 4 years ago

Is the IRS well known as a barely functioning behemoth? There's no shortage of animus towards them, but it's generally seemed closer to "I don't like the agency that takes my money" than "this agency is incompetent."

anikom15• 4 years ago

I’m Californian and I have a much easer time dealing with Federal departments than state departments. For one, Federal websites actually work properly.

noncoml• 4 years ago

UK doesn’t have ID either, but I think most European countries do

jeltz2• 4 years ago

The UK used to have an ID but the conservatives scrapped it.

branon• 4 years ago

The feds do not need every citizen to hold an ID card, even if they might be trying to convince you otherwise.

Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment.

The current federated system using state drivers' licenses seems fine to me, it's been functional through all of RealID's delays.

ohgodplsno2• 4 years ago

Pretty much every functioning democracy in the world has a national ID system, because that's how any functioning country works. The US is not special in that regard. In fact, most major countries in the world without an ID system are... all former colonies of the UK.

But I guess you can keep on being scared of leaking your SSN (that everyone unofficially uses as an ID anyways) and keep on using different cards depending on the state. There's a reason identity theft is so prevalent in the US, and pretty much nowhere else in the world.

Godel_unicode23• 4 years ago

If you are an American, you already have a federally issued ID it just isn’t very good. If you are an American who has traveled internationally you have at least two distinct federally issued IDs, which can get out of sync and cause a huge headache. At least 3 if you ever interacted with the IRS, 4 if you have a KTN, 5 if you have a TSA redress number…

There are plenty of places where just a drivers license isn’t acceptable (getting a passport for instance) and requires you to play the stupid 1/2 from category A/B game.

I agree that bringing up voting is a red herring, that’s a state thing and the several states should solve that for themselves. The US federal government needs a unified ID system which was designed as a robust, centralized ID system that can then be mandated for federal agencies to use.

wdb2• 4 years ago

I think a ID card is easier than a driver's license. Not everyone needs or wants a driver's license. If you don't have a driver's license, how can you vote in the US? Do you need a passport?

tzs• 4 years ago

Hailing this as necessary to prevent voter fraud is just as preposterous as the mark-of-the-beast nonsense covered by another child comment.

It's not needed to prevent voter fraud in the US because there is very little voter fraud to prevent. What it could help with is reducing voter suppression.

Several states, claiming that it is necessary to prevent fraud (which they cannot actually find any significant examples of) have instituted voter ID requirements.

In many of these there has been a pretty good correlation between what ID they accept and whether or not the people who tend to vote for the party enacting the ID require are more likely to already have that form of ID than the people who tend to vote for the other party.

These are often accompanied by changes to how IDs are issued that make it significantly harder for many people who vote for the other party to obtain ID. For example, state IDs are often issued by the same department that issues driver's licenses. Some states, citing budget issues, have closed such offices, with the closures hitting hardest is largely minority areas, and reduced hours in the offices remaining open eliminating weekend and evening hours.

This makes it so that for many people in those areas that lost their offices getting an ID means losing a day of work or more, which many of them cannot afford and so have to give up voting.

A Federal ID that is easy to obtain for all citizens, very cheap or free, and that states are required to accept as voter ID could go a long way to helping eligible voters actually be able to vote.

yieldcrv• 4 years ago

There is a passport card

But it is pretty useless, I didnt renew mine with the renewal of my passport book

Can be used at bars and domestic travel and with employer verification, but not international air travel which is the main reason i would have it

jsmith45• 4 years ago

Amusingly ICAO (the UN aviation standardizations organization) has specified the ID card format for Machine Readable (Official) Travel Documents. And the passport card conforms to those specifications. But the only use of it that they officially encourage countries to accept is the Crew Member Certificate.

In all other cases, acceptance would be based on agreements between the involved countries. In theory, any country could choose to accept any such document without an agreement, but they have little reason to do so, and it is not really compatible with paper visas. Furthermore, they should refuse it if there are unmatched conditions printed on the back of the card, like the passport cards have. The result is that they are of pretty limited use, and most countries that do use them will restrict them to specific scenarios where there are agreements in place.

kylehotchkiss7• 4 years ago

Not useful for international air travel but remarkably usable as general ID when traveling abroad. When I’ve been asked for an ID for random purposes and showed it while traveling, it’s worked just fine. Worth the $100 or whatever to not have to share my home address with some stranger

HeavenFox• 4 years ago

One underappreciated benefit of the lack of national ID is it forces the system to deal with a plethora of different IDs, and therefore makes the lives of those with rare forms of ID (such as foreigners) much simpler.

lxgr2• 4 years ago

A nice idea, but in my experience that's not the case.

Quite a lot of financial institutions will still only accept a US state-issued driver's license to open an account with them, even though they generally accept foreigners.

I've even encountered one that accepts only driver's licenses and not (also DMV-issued) learner's permits or non-driving IDs!

phpisthebest5• 4 years ago

Sorry I like federalism, and oppose a centralized state. the Federal government in the US has WAY WAY WAY too much power now

asveikau7• 4 years ago

ID cards to vote would disproportionately obstruct legitimate voting of older people and racial minorities.

You need to understand that adding barriers to vote in the US has a 100+ year history of nefarious things like preventing eligible black people from voting as their primary purpose, then a firm understanding of the motives of such modern discussions falls quickly into place. Silly people who complain about "wokeness", maybe many of them here on HN, will say I'm being paranoid or outdated in that description, but the history is dark, ugly, and very real.

thewrongthinker5• 4 years ago

That is not an argument. The same way wokes say “look at Europe” when it comes to healthcare, conservatives say “look at Europe” when it comes to id cards.

All through the EU, id cards are the norm. If we can do it, so can you. This whole “but think of the black people” is bs. What are you, some kind of racist? You don’t think black people can get ids?

SoftTalker2• 4 years ago

Voting is a state concern. The federal government isn't really involved, certainly not at the level of identifying voters.

worldsavior2• 4 years ago

ID card is not needed. There is no reason to hold one since they already have access to your data, and authenticate by your picture and other. Using a card just allows more fraud crimes, something that is already very bad in the US.

toomuchtodo2• 4 years ago

Great observation. It’s why TSA is moving to facial biometrics. Less need for ID and suboptimal human evaluation of person->ID.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33865633

digianarchist2• 4 years ago

After moving to the US from Canada it's pretty shocking the number of institutions that do not accept either your passport or a federally issued ID (TTP) as valid identification.

Everyone wants a state ID such as a driver's license to open bank accounts online.

This Real ID deadline has made it a massive pain to get a California DL and of course California doesn't allow exchange of a Canadian Provincial DL unlike the reverse.

bombcar2• 4 years ago

Almost everywhere I’ve been will accept a US passport with prodding, but online “instant verification” systems are universally shitty.

kylehotchkiss7• 4 years ago

“Massive pain”

I presume you’re taking about address proofs. The secret is that they aren’t so strict about it. Change the bank or credit card address nearest to issuing next statement. Then just sign up for Google fi and use whatever address. When I needed to change an CA drivers license address to a friends while living abroad for a bit, getting these two proofs took me under a week. And my friends address was where I wanted any correspondence to go, so I considered the change genuine for my situation

indymike• 4 years ago

Delegating ID to states (ID & driver's license) and states delegating to local jurisdictions (birth certificate) for identity actually makes sense. At the Federal level, they confirm and issue IDs for employees, people who work at Federal locations, and people who want to travel outside the US.

kylehotchkiss7• 4 years ago

Passport cards seem like a good way to begin to offer this. I flash mine as my “national ID” when traveling abroad (since I’m asked for one occasionally). I like that it doesn’t have an address on it which I have zero desires to share with strangers. All the people overseas care about is that it “looks official” and the passport card has some shiny US-type security features that fit that qualification

refurb3• 4 years ago

Voter ID is a "problem" because a lot of people don't want it.

slaw• 4 years ago

US government has actual ID card, it is passport card.

stjohnswarts• 4 years ago

Is there really any voting related problems for ID though? Voter ID fraud is essentially 0 at this point. Only the low information people can't come to terms with that. State IDs are fine. If you want a national ID just get a passport

ars• 4 years ago

I got to real ID like 2 years ago, and I had to argue with the DMV guy. He discouraged me from getting it, saying it was unnecessary and I should use a passport instead.

I actually had to argue with him and give him reasons why I wanted it before he would allow me to get it.

ZanyProgrammer3• 4 years ago

I had the same experience in spring 2021. Totally obnoxious customer service.

bmlzootown• 4 years ago

Literally stood outside the DMV the other day for more than hour in sub-40F weather to get my real id.

attah_• 4 years ago

Meanwhile in other countries... Secure, easy-to-obtain, IDs since several decades. Also, an ID is required to vote and since it is secure you don't need any silly voter registration (which is just suppression in the guise of verification).

themagician• 4 years ago

The current system (without Real ID) isn't really any less "secure". All Real ID does is force you to show a citizenship document to travel. It's designed to put pressure on illegal immigrants to self deport and punish States like California for who issue driver's licenses to non-citizens.

There is no automatic reason that Real ID would even be required to vote, since voting is left up to the states anyway. If the state says you can use a business card to vote then you can.

chipsa• 4 years ago

Voter registration also ensures that you're voting in the right races. Because the US has so many local races, people living not very far apart may have different ballots for things like local water district. And people are terrible at updating the address on their id.

runako• 4 years ago

Real ID was a result of a political climate that envisioned terror attacks as a salient political issue, and that non-US citizens were believed to be the primary terror threat.

It's probably safe to say that we live in a vastly different political climate today.

riffic2• 4 years ago

just ax the stupid mandate.

somrand02• 4 years ago

why isn't a human being enough? why do we require a paper trail to what is already here?

because we prefer to own things. it's always been all about whose is what. that's what any national ID says: "this person belongs to country which issued their passport".

but then, if I am really a free human being, why must I be treated as my country's property?

n0us• 4 years ago

I already had a Real ID but when I moved to New York and went to get my license switched they would not give me another one despite having proof of address, my SSN, my valid passport, and my existing valid Real ID. I have to go back with all of that and pay another $60 or something along with my birth certificate to get a Real ID from the state. Unbelievable hassle to get that thing.

battery_glasses• 4 years ago

Why not just grand-father in all current state driver's licenses and let the migration happen naturally as people renew?

suprfsat• 4 years ago

If your grandfather had the right to vote without complicated ID requirements, then you do too.

twelve40• 4 years ago

could never get that. why get all 200mil adults drag their ass to the dmv with stupid-ass falsifiable bills as "proof" (of what? that i exist?) and make TONs of busywork for the whole country when you could just renew automatically into "real"... pure idiocy

kylehotchkiss7• 4 years ago

“Proof of address” is what they’re looking for. There isn’t any other way of getting that across the country because there wasn't consistency between states on verification. I don’t why other than maybe making sure the feds have workable address databases to help with investigations

satya71• 4 years ago

I feel vindicated in skipping the extra evidence for getting a RealID. The new enforcement date is past my renewal date, and I plan to get a non-RealID next time too.

pyuser583• 4 years ago

From ChatGPT:

When will REAL ID be enforced?

The REAL ID Act was passed by Congress in 2005, and the enforcement of its requirements for state-issued driver's licenses and identification cards began in phases, starting in 2016. As of October 2021, all states are now compliant with the REAL ID Act and have implemented the required security measures for their driver's licenses and identification cards. This means that, in most cases, you will need to have a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or identification card to board a domestic flight or enter certain federal facilities, such as military bases and federal courthouses.

PHGamer• 4 years ago

i feel like real id is unconstitutional. it shouldn't be required to enter airports or government buildings as a citizen of the united states.

xyst• 4 years ago

I live in TX and the only thing I noticed was a shiny star on the ID.

17 years of delay for a star. So much $$$ spent to get a star on IDs

DHS announces extension of Real ID full enforcement deadline

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