The Zelda Test (or Why no Zelda Clones?)

http://games.greggman.com/game/the-zelda-test-or-why-no-zelda-clones/

by sblom • 15 years ago

64 62 15 years ago

games.greggman.com

zmonkeyz2• 15 years ago

check out the Neutopia series for the Turbo-Grafx 16.

I disagree with the author when he says that "RPG, in the context of video games basically means quest based game with turn based combat." IMO, this is extremely narrow-minded, and entirely sidesteps the most important part of the RPG acronym: the R and P, standing for role-playing.

That said, just role-playing is not enough to make an RPG (otherwise, all games would be RPG's!). To say Zelda is anything other than an RPG is narrow-mindedness at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.

Sniffnoy• 15 years ago

"RPG" is an empirical cluster. It's a mistake to seriously attempt to infer the properties of the cluster from the term used to describe it. It does seem safe to say that the above description is overly narrow, but that doesn't mean most video games referred to as RPGs have much to do with role-playing.

eridius• 15 years ago

To me, an RPG video game requires you assume the persona of someone else, someone who has their own collection of stats and backstory and motivations. One particularly important point is combat must depend on the character your playing as much as (or more so) than your own ability. Generally this means you get to decide the tactics, but the character you play as decides how well they perform.

Natsu2• 15 years ago

At least back in the old days of Nintendo Power, they called games like that "adventure" games, or sometimes action/adventure and RPG was another (then sorely neglected) category where you would always get to read about these games, only to find that they would never leave Japan.

kelnos2• 15 years ago

The article addresses this part clearly: the "RP" in "RPG" doesn't really define the category, since most (all?) character-based games are "role-playing": in a racing game, you're role-playing a race car driver, in a military FPS you're role-playing a soldier, etc. But I wouldn't call those RPGs by any stretch of the imagination.

RPG has pretty much come to mean a very specific thing: quest-type game with turn-based combat. I would never think of Zelda as an RPG.

(As an aside, remember Super Mario RPG? They mashed standard Mario with the kind of RPG format I describe above... funny that they explicitly acknowledge the format in the title of the game.)

slowpoke2• 15 years ago

I disagree with the "turn-based". There are loads of RPGs which aren't strictly turn-based or even feature action-oriented battles. Games such as Final Fantasy and Xenosaga would fall into the former category (which really is blurring the line a bit because it depends on what you define as turn-based) while games such as World of Warcraft or the "Tales of" Series, which feature real time combat, either more tactical (WoW) or even in the style of Beat-em-Ups (which was essentially pioneered by Tales of Phantasia and became a selling point of the series as a whole).

I would personally define RPG as a game that features most the following:

- a story that isn't just background for the gameplay (like in many FPS, where the story is just an excuse for you to shoot stuff). This will most likely includes character development and other sorts of progression in the game world. (Zelda? Check.)

- some sort of combat system, whether turn-based, action-oriented or with strategic elements doesn't matter (Zelda? Check.)

- generally non-linear gameplay including sidequests. There's usually a red thread along which the main game progresses, but you can "pause" at almost any time and just do what the fuck you want - go explore, do sidequests, grind levels or equipment etc. (Zelda? Check.)

- character progression, through acquiring new items, abilities, levels, skills etc. (Zelda? Check.)

I kept this intentionally fuzzy because there are many fringe cases, such as Monster Hunter, which basically lacks the story (it's really just an excuse to tell you "go hunt monsters"), but is otherwise considered an RPG too.

Zelda definitely IS an RPG. I think it's partially due to being so special that many people don't like to classify it as such - they might feel like it takes away from the magic a bit.

rrreese• 15 years ago

It's an odd definition of RPG that would exclude Skyrim, Deus Ex, Dragon Age, The Witcher, or even World of Warcraft as none are turn based.

If anything RPG has come to mean quest style game with XP.

bmahmood• 15 years ago

I found Darksiders to be very similar to Zelda, based on all the points mentioned by the author.

Separately though, I agree Zelda holds a unique charm that's very difficult to evoke or copy (kind of like Pixar movies).

zmonkeyz2• 15 years ago

I totally agree. You can always tell the people who didnt play Darksiders when they diss it as a God of War clone. :)

latch• 15 years ago

secret of mana?

Natsu2• 15 years ago

Depending on how far out you want to take the similarity to other adventure games (and minus the romhacks of Zelda), I can see similarities in terms of gameplay (open world/decent sized inventory/items cause gameplay changes) in games like: Metroid, Cave Story, Rygar, Castlevania, Metal Gear, Fester's Quest, Friday the 13th, and Battle of Olympus.

Granted, some of those are weaker examples than others, but in the terms that he talked about, I'd say that the Metroid connection is probably one of the strongest.

indspenceable• 15 years ago

The metroid connection fits most of his criteria; certainly, at least the minimum he suggests at the end. I would be interested in hearing why he thinks the series only meets the 3 check marks it gets... For lack of better phrasing, it just seems entirely incorrect.

The rules that he cites as the minimum rules basically describes the "metroidvania" subgenre. Essentially, games in this genre have an open world, in which you explore to find powerups in order to reach more places to explore. While the genre doesn't demand level puzzles, that's how the games are typically designed.

binarysolo2• 15 years ago

Yeah Metroid and Castlevania (the 2D ones, like SotN) really fit the bill best I think.

sage_joch• 15 years ago

As an aside, I could never understand why A Link to the Past was consistently ranked higher than Secret of Mana in gaming magazines, top 100 lists, etc. Secret of Mana seemed vastly superior in almost every way.

ch0wn• 15 years ago

I totally agree. I absolutely loved that game.

epaga• 15 years ago

My 6 year old son just played through it on our Wii and I was reminded how awesome Secret of Mana is. I started a new game myself and was sucked in instantly.

Excellent game.

impendia• 15 years ago

I enjoyed Secret of Mana a lot, but,

(1) the combat was unsophisticated, for the most part you kind of button mashed;

(2) the magic spells mostly all did the same thing;

(3) the world didn't have a lot of topography, and mostly you used the cannons to jump from one area to another;

(4) there were not a lot of puzzles in the dungeons, and those that existed were not as sophisticated as in Zelda.

I admired SOM for its lush visuals, dazzling soundtrack, expansive world, and compelling story. But to me it did not have the feeling of getting the small details right. Zelda, in contrast, was pitch-perfect on the small scale (IMHO).

matteodepalo2• 15 years ago

You've just described Skyrim

darklajid2• 15 years ago

I didn't downvote you, but the article _directly explains_ why The Elder Scrolls games are not relevant in his opinion.

The 'unique abilities' point he makes (whether you agree or not) fails here: I love Skyrim (lvl 38 right now), but magic is not needed so far (I don't know anything special), nor any skills. Combat is the same, whatever weapon you use, from the process point of view (sure, some weapons look cooler. You can do sneak attacks. Still - you do the very same thing, all the time).

MrScruff• 15 years ago

I thought there were sections where your shout powers are required to progress the plot?

matteodepalo2• 15 years ago

Try building a thief assassin with illusion mastered and then you'll tell me if you don't need spells. You are playing a very very little part of skyrim if you don't need magic.

jamesgatz• 15 years ago

What about Deus Ex? Though the original game doesn't have an overworld, it's levels are quite large (and open ended) and it seems to meet all the other criteria. I'd never thought about it before, but this might be why I enjoy the game so much - it's a Zelda-type experience. I will admit that it lacks the specific weapon/enemy combos the Zelda thrives on. And really, there's only one way to play a Zelda game, while there are a number of very different ways to play DX.

Argorak• 15 years ago

3D Dot Game Heroes is a pretty obvious clone of Zelda (and fun, too!).

Also, after thinking about it, Batman: Arkham (Asylum|City) incorporate many elements from Zelda, especially the gadget and backtracking-mechanics.

ajuc• 15 years ago

Dink Smallwood is a lot like Zelda.

KleinmanB• 15 years ago

The Current Generation of the Grand Theft Auto series do in fact meet the qualifications. The game skin throws you off, but the structure is very similar. The only major difference is that there are subchapters in plot instead of just chapters.

RickHull• 15 years ago

Yep, GTA3 (even) arguably meets all of the listed criteria:

gommm• 15 years ago

Three games that would get pretty close to that are cavestory (but not many optional subquests), secret of mana (not sure though for the rule #8 it's been a while) and little big adventure (but it's been a long time I've played it so I'm not 100% sure anymore). Incidentally, those are some of my favorite games...

But indeed there are very few games that meet all those requirements which is a bit of a pity...

WiseWeasel• 15 years ago

There's a Zelda-like game for iPhone that came out earlier this year, Sacred Odyssey: Rise of Ayden, made by Gameloft.

ricw• 15 years ago

Final fantasy ticks all the boxes mentioned. And I'd say its as great a game as Zelda (though en large maybe not quite as "polished").

kelnos2• 15 years ago

FF has turn-based non-precision battles, unlike Zelda, so that fails the test according to the article's list.

(I'm actually surprised the article didn't mention FF at all.)

cubicle67• 15 years ago

Depends on which FF as the battle mechanic changed for each game

FFVII had (from memory; it's been a few years) a time based system - like turn based, but each character has a timer run down after their turn until their next one. You had only that much time to decide on your next attack, and with 3 of your characters in the same battle things could get frantic on occasion

buff-a• 15 years ago

If you apply those strict standards of similarity to Mario as you do to Zelda, then not one of those games listed is the same as Mario, and Sonic the least of them.

micheljansen• 15 years ago

First thing I thought when I read the title was "Never heard of Okami?". Fortunately, the article mentions the game as well. It predates Twilight Princess, but is obviously heavily inspired by the Zelda franchise in a good way. It's very original and beautifully styled. I highly recommend anyone who enjoys playing Zelda to check it out.

minikomi• 15 years ago

Chrono trigger is almost there. I really like the time based should-I-wait-for-combo-or-go-now Combat system.. Also, it has one thing many zeldas do not - various endings

hcmeier• 15 years ago

I don't know if it passes the Zelda test but "Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy" (GameCube, PS2, Xbox) is - as far as I remember - a good clone.

MengYuanLong• 15 years ago

I think I'm one of the five people on HN who do not hold Zelda as the pinnacle of gaming. To address a few points:

1. Op chooses to compare Zelda (and let's be clear, this is modern day zelda) to what amount to first gen games. However, comparing modern Zelda to Doom seems a bit unfair. How about The legend of Zelda, which by my count, has 25 items and pick-ups (including sword and shield upgrades). The original Doom, which is continually referred to throughout the piece, has 26 items.

2. Devil May Cry 3 is not a button masher. Go ahead, beat the game, and then tell me you could randomly tap buttons and progress. Just because you are quickly hitting buttons does not mark a game as a masher.

3. I just don't understand the point that is being made. He claims other genres are all just clones of each other and then defines them so loosely that Twisted Metal is now not worth mentioning because, more or less, it is just Gran Turismo...

I'm finding that this response is growing rather uncontrollably and frighteningly I could probably write an entire blog response to this article. But, I think this article skims a bigger idea: Unique games stand alone in their respective genres because they bring together multiple disciplines/genres and blend them into a cohesive experience. Some games try to do this (Duke Nukem Forever) and most fail. Others like Zelda, Portal,and GTA succeed and become fan favorites that influence future game designs.

wzdd• 15 years ago

It's true that The Legend of Zelda has 25 carryable items (see http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda01-the-legend-of-zelda-item...). But it also has a bunch of other items: hearts, heart containers, fairies, pieces of Triforce, blue and red rupees, the magical clock, possibly other things (this is off the top of my head). That's 32 items, which is I think the count in the article. Of those, at least 18 are classes of things (eg "key", "sword", "potion", "health"). Each class has a unique function (almost -- the wand is arguable). By comparison, half of Doom's items are the same class ("gun"), and most of the others fall into one of the two classes "health" and "armour". I think the OP's point is quite well made here: Zelda, even the first one, made in 1986), puts a huge emphasis on unique items and incorporates them into puzzles.

lloeki• 15 years ago

> I think I'm one of the five people on HN who do not hold Zelda as the pinnacle of gaming.

You're not alone, I find the Zelda series a handholding, restricted, and shallow experience. Ironically it's the opposite of what is described here. I've played a bunch of The Legend of Zelda and Zelda II (can't even be bothered to look the name up) on NES, and completed A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening and Ocarina of Time (at that point I just stopped caring) when I was bored playing Chrono Trigger for the nth time (I think it was n=8 or so) or some other games in the corresponding era. The whole time I expected something to happen, really, anything, but there was nothing remotely like the magic countless people recommending them to me seemed to experience.

> I'm finding that this response is growing rather uncontrollably and frighteningly I could probably write an entire blog response to this article.

I was myself writing a comment earlier that turned into an article draft.

greggman2• 15 years ago

Doom has 26 items? Well, let's see

10 weapons, all of which are really the same weapon with different settings of damage, range, aim, reload, energy so in comparison with Zelda that's really 1 item.

Stimpack, Medkit, Security Armor, Combat Armor, Health Potion, Spiritual Armor, Soul Sphere, Mega Sphere are pretty much all variations of the same thing. At most those would count as 2 items in Zelda. The article didn't include Zelda's hearts, or faeries in it's count.

Blur Artifact Invulnerability Artifact

Ammo (something not counted in the article)

That was part of the point of the article. In Zelda that 26 items actually open new and varied game play. They are not just stats variations of the same basic items.

elliottcarlson• 15 years ago

Personally I think Crystalis for NES came pretty close to this criteria - worth checking out if you haven't played it before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystalis

georgemcbay• 15 years ago

He listed so many must-have items that virtually no non-Zelda game will hit all of them.

One entire series that was obviously Zelda-inspired (in both 2d and 3d incarnations) was The Legacy of Kain games. Blood Omen played very much like a 2d Zelda and Soul Reaver 1&2 played very much like a 3d Zelda.

After those games the series kind of switched gears into Devil May Cry territory, but the first 3 games were very Zeldaish, only with a dark emo coat of paint.

Semiapies• 15 years ago

Hell, the very first Legend of Zelda fails on half of these items. And, naturally, there were rather a few games that emulated the crap out of the first two Zeldas, just as a starting point.

derefr• 15 years ago

Seems everyone here is talking about "games in the Zelda sub-genre." I'd like to mention an actual Zelda clone (as it's a game I played for years, long ago—I don't know enough to endorse it in its present state): Graal Online.

Graal Online (or just Graal for short) is/was an MMORPG resembling Zelda: A Link To The Past in almost every way. In fact, it was originally called "Zelda Online" until they were served notice by Nintendo (the resulting changes were profoundly minor.) The game went through phases of being first a Java applet, then a Windows executable, and—most recently, it appears—a Facebook and iOS app.

It's basically what you'd expect from a Zelda game: a sword with damage levels and a shield that can deflect projectiles, bombs and arrows, rupees in bushes, Metroidvania-style "dungeon key-item unlocks more overworld" gameplay, etc. On the other hand, it's actually very programmable: it comes with (or, at least, used to come with) a built-in game editor, which can be used to construct one's own 64x64-tile maps, and Actor-modeled "Graalscript" sprite objects. (For example, you can drop any arbitrary image onto the map, and then add hooks for "was obtained," "was selected in menu," and "was fired," and you'll now have a new carryable item.) This content can then be pushed to the server where (after moderation) any group of players can wander in and interact with it. In fact, "outdoor" maps may actually get stitched right into the main overworld. (This is still my gold-standard for the concept of "player housing" in an MMO.) I would compare the usage-experience as similar to a 2D, Zelda-motif'ed Second Life, or a sprite-based MOO.

After a while, Cyberjoueurs (the creators) came to the money-making strategy of allowing people to run the server software on their own (centralized) game servers, charging a fee but allowing people to make money off those "Player Worlds" in turn. This then introduced waves of heavy customization, where little of the original Zelda mechanics remain in many player-worlds (the UI may be overridden at a low level in Graalscript to draw your own GUI, perform your own sprite animations in reaction to arbitrary key-presses, etc.) Because of this, most of the communal world-building aspect was abandoned, which is a shame. It does still seem to play a lot like Zelda, though :)

Stwerner• 15 years ago

There is one for Sega Genesis that I remember liking a lot when I was younger: Beyond Oasis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Oasis

betterth• 15 years ago

MODERN WARFARE 3 IS BASICALLY A DIRECT RIP OFF OF DOOM BUT NOTHING IS EVEN IN THE SAME GENRE AS ZELDA.

Only a Nintendo fanboy could ever rationalize something so ridiculous.

There's a ton of games out there with large worlds and in-game isometric/3d action.

Sure, nothing follows the exact formula, but that's because there is no need to directly copy. The genre is alive and well and no fanboys are going to convince anyone that Zelda is a unique butterfly.

jonnathanson2• 15 years ago

Though the author seems aware of his subjective limitations ("...there are almost ZERO clones of Zelda. I’m probably missing a whole bunch but..."), he is nevertheless very quick to make sweeping pronouncements. And he defines the Zelda subgenre more or less recursively; to be like Zelda is to be Zelda-like in ways X, Y, and Z.

Through it all, the primary conditions for being like Zelda seem to be: a) to have been noticed by the author in his game-playing travels, and b) to have passed the author's retroactively applied taste test.

All of this is a shame, not because the author gives short shrift to every Zelda-style game out there, but because he does so to Zelda itself. Given his passion for the series, he could have written a very insightful dissection of what makes it work. Why is Zelda so revered, so timeless, and so enchanting? These are questions the author seems overly equipped to handle, and their answers would make for a very interesting post (or series of posts). I, for one, would love to see him take a deeper dive into the mechanics, psychology, mythology, setting, and style of the series. Relieved of the burden of proving a categorical declaration, he could instead focus his energies on a lively study. Rather than talking about what makes Zelda an exception, he could talk about what makes Zelda exceptional.

phzbOx• 15 years ago

Although I understand what you mean, I also understand the author's point about 'being zelda-ish'. I.e. I really like Zelda (I'm currently playing the last one and really enjoying it), but I'd enjoy any other games based on Zelda's principle game mechanics which the author rightly described.

For instance, I enjoy how the same region will evolve over time depending on where you are in your main quest. At first, it's just a road to go to the temple. But as the game progress and you get more items, you can explore it in depth and discover awesome quests/items.

I agree with him/her that there's really few games out there that mimics the game mechanics of zelda. Mario 64 comes close but, for instance, miss the in depth strategy and the various items. Zelda really have unique game play and it's not just about the world of Zelda.. you could create a totally different world and still copy the game mechanics.. but lots of really successful game use only a part of zelda's game play which is on what the author argue.

In fact, it can be summarized as Zelda being the intersection between multiple 'genres'. And it's surprising that nobody copies it exactly as we all know how Zelda is a success and is popular.

jonnathanson2• 15 years ago

"I agree with him/her that there's really few games out there that mimics the game mechanics of zelda."

I guess I take two general issues with that statement. The first is that the author's criterion, or yours, about what constitutes "very few" is vaguely defined. How many would be "more than a few"? I'm really not trying to pick nits here. I very much understand and appreciate your main point. But it seems as if the comment section of this article is brimming over with examples of Zelda-like games (whether or not they are true "clones" is also vague and subjective).

Second, do we really want games to be "mimicking" Zelda? Is that a goal we're generally in favor of? Personally speaking, I'm completely content to let Zelda be Zelda, and let other developers and publishers try to break different ground in different areas. If we're generally in favor of an expansion of the Zelda-type subgenre of Action RPGs, that's fine. But why must games in this subgenre have to "mimick" Zelda in order to meet our needs? By very definition, isn't the attempt at mimicking Zelda going to doom those games to being second-rate Zelda clones?

tammer• 15 years ago

I concur with the rest of the comments - I don't understand how the author can dismiss the plethora of RPG/adventure games, from GTA to Skyrim, as not being inspired by Zelda's gameplay in the same way platformers can be said to be derivative of Mario.

What's surprising is the fact that the "fanboyism" would only be augmented by this conclusion, in that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. I'd say the message would be even more powerful if he could articulate this genealogy.

On the other hand I realize the Zelda series is absolutely unique, but that this is due its minimalism, its art, and its' developers' refusal to sacrifice artistic continuity for the sake of graphic realism. The directing through the history of the series is the element impossible to replicate.

chaostheory2• 15 years ago

No Zelda clones? Maybe it's more accurate to say that very few Zelda clones come close to the Zelda series' quality.

There are plenty of Zelda clones:

The Legacy of Kain Series

The Darksiders Series

Secret of Mana

Zenonia

Sacred Odyssey

... and plenty more for iOS and Android.

sek• 15 years ago

There are so many subtle details, which are so well designed, you can't catch that with a score.

The whole games makes an impression as a whole. We are only talking about game mechanics but there are few games that have this atmosphere. The music, the lightning and the themes are simply art. You can't break that down in a list.

There is only one Shigeru Miyamoto.

chaostheory2• 15 years ago

One of us has misunderstood the others' post. As I have already written; I agree with you, I can't think of any game in Zelda's specific genre that beats or even comes close to Zelda's quality. I only pointed out that there are actually many games that clone Zelda's game mechanics at large, which imo the article's author completely missed for some strange reason. (None of the games he listed are actually games that fall within Zelda's genre.)

kmfrk• 15 years ago

So many things define Zelda. Ocarina of Time without the score would be a completely different game. If it were so simple to make a clone, people would already have done it.

Then again, I stopped bothering with the series after Majora's Mask which I didn't even like.

petrichor• 15 years ago

only commenting here because zelda is my favorite game ever and i want to go over this list later (like when my daughter is a almost grown up), but if i just bookmark it, it will be lost and i'll forget.

The Zelda Test (or Why no Zelda Clones?)

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