Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

http://www.christine.net/2008/10/mentoring-women-for-the-next-y-combinator-1017-deadline.html

by spacejockeys • 18 years ago

56 107 18 years ago

silencio2• 18 years ago

Yay! It's really nice to see women help other women out like this. I'm not applying for this upcoming cycle, but I have benefitted from talking to and being mentored by other women with more experience. Helps a lot when there's only a very, very tiny percentage.

spacejockeys2• 18 years ago

We're hoping that it gives more women the gumption to apply. It's Susan Mernit's idea, and a good one.

halo4• 18 years ago

I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me.

I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different result depending the sex of the coder - a computer is ultimately a great leveller. It has been a long fought battle to try and gain equality between the sexes and I firmly believe society is increasingly heading towards that goal.

And then when I read things like this it feels like a punch-in-the-face, as though it's saying "equality doesn't matter when it helps women". Or, even worse, there's perhaps an implication that women /need/ the help of other women to succeed and deserve special treatment. Or should I get ideas that there is some sort of conspiracy to form the inverse to the stereotype sexist "men's-only club" boardroom and there's some sort of attempt to reverse that through a "women's-only club". I loathe all these implications.

I've often wondered about this curious double-standard. There's previously been women-only discussions by Google in Computer Science at my University, but I bet there isn't men-only discussions in the psychology department, languages or other women-dominated social sciences and I think they'd be highly controversial if they did. Often an eyelid isn't blinked when someone offers something exclusively for women, but there'd rightly be uproar if someone offered it for men-only. I often wonder if the fact that men do significantly worse than women in exams (and as such University admissions) in this country would be quite such a footnote if the shoe was on the other foot.

SapphireSun• 18 years ago

While I agree with you for the last two paragraphs, I've started to think that it might be very useful to have a female in the founders or first employees circle. The reason isn't because they are necessarily better, but they are aware of facets of culture that we are not aware of because they grew up in that tribe and we didn't. They would have the same problem vica versa.

If you're selling to a broad multisexual audiance, it makes sense to have a confederate in your midst to point out any faux pas you may make.

halo4• 18 years ago

I can see your point although I'm not necessarily sure I agree with it. I don't think I'm any more away of the facets of culture of the average man any more than most women and I don't like to think that women-kind is that distant that it's easy to make faux-pas.

I don't object to employing someone for their knowledge of a market though when it's relevant. When in Rome, it might be handy to hire some Romans...

netcan2• 18 years ago

please watch the

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It stretches the page.

Alex39172• 18 years ago

This is about equity, not equality.

And we do talk about the same things for men when it comes to reading ability and scholastic performance. In fact just a couple weeks ago I posted a review of Peg Tyre's new book The Trouble With Boys.

mhartl3• 18 years ago

Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile.

As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts of implicit advantages I don't even notice, but it still weirds me out to see groups wear their exclusionary nature not only openly, but with pride.

aston4• 18 years ago

Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.

cmos2• 18 years ago

I recruit from my alma mater first. I help people who grew up in my hometown. It's a comfort level thing.

jimbokun9• 18 years ago

"And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus"

Did you see the episode of Will and Grace, where Matt Damon pretends to be gay because that is the only way he can get accepted into the men's chorus group?

abstractbill• 18 years ago

Startup life is a lot easier when you have a mentor, and it's easier to form that mentor relationship when you have things in common. I don't see anything wrong with female mentors reaching out to other women and offering the opportunity to form these relationships.

sanj• 18 years ago

Might I suggest that you consider taking part in a class dominated by women? Perhaps something discussing the proto-feminist leanings of Woolf?

I'm not kidding.

I think you'll find that you're lonely. That you gravitate towards talking to other men in the group. That you feel like your voice isn't heard. That you sense resentment towards you. That your opinion isn't valid.

Now imagine going through that every day in your college career.

(I'm assuming you're a man. If you're not, then my 97% die roll failed me.)

ajross• 18 years ago

Indeed. Now add a bunch of chest-pounding chicks writing self-described "controversial rants" about the utter ridiculousness of having a group just for men to feel good about themselves.

Hell, the tone of the parent article alone is enough to justify this group. Guys: we already dominate the industry, and will for the rest of our careers. There's no need to be jerks about it. If you don't see the need for a group to which you'll never belong, just keep quiet.

smoody• 18 years ago

I know exactly what you're talking about. I once worked for a software company where the female engineers/managers way outnumbered the male engineers. It became known as a friendly place for female engineers to work and that, in turn, attracted more female engineers.

But that's not my point. My point is, at that company, I would often go to engineering meetings (with five to seven other people) where I was the only man in attendance. And I can tell you without a doubt that it was hard to get my opinion heard and I felt isolated.

So, I completely agree with your argument. You don't know what it's like until you've been there.

nostrademons3• 18 years ago

I took a course at Mt. Holyoke in college (I'm male, Mt. Holyoke is an all-women's college). I also spent quite a while in the Harry Potter fandom, which is literally 99% female.

In neither situation did I ever feel marginalized, or excluded, or ignored. Occasionally I felt like I was an object of curiosity, but I can deal with that.

It is a bit of a culture shock, and in both situations I was careful to observe first and talk later. I saw some guys who entered fandom, immediately started acting like...men, and had a rather unwelcome reception as a result. But that's social skills 101: being aware of existing culture and norms of a group.

That said, I don't have any problem with a group like this. It's not really a sex issue: it's connecting experienced entrepreneurs with like-minded people, which is kinda the point of mentoring. Arguably, PG started YCombinator because he wanted to mentor people like himself; I don't see any reason why a group of women should not be able to do the same thing.

halo4• 18 years ago

I'll admit that I haven't personally taken such a class - sadly it's very unlikely I'll be able to do so.

I would find it very sad if that you described happened, though. I think a male point of view would be valuable on a discussion of an issue like proto-feminism, for example. The idea that someone would get shouted down from a discussion for having a dissenting point of view to me seems bizarre assuming they facilitate the discussion, but perhaps that's just me.

jumper• 18 years ago

I've always heard things like "I think you'll find that you're lonely." Hm. Well, yeah, I (male) do find that! But it doesn't seem to matter where I am or what "group" I'm in, I'm lonely as hell. I connect on a meaningful level with a very low percentage of people. Most of the others can be classified as disconnected from me and apathetic about me (not "wrong" per se) or actively malignant, in that they are bullies or otherwise seek to use\abuse me, probably in a totem pole ego gratification move or just in a political\profit based one.

I dunno. I think what it comes down to is that in most things, male\female is much the same experience, even if it expresses it self in different ways. You can rant on about all the sucky hard experiences one side gets, but I think if you really look, you'll find the otherside has a very similar set of problems as well.

ken• 18 years ago

OK, I'll bite. In college my minor was archaeology, a field completely dominated (at least at my school) by women. I've been the one guy in otherwise all-women classes.

Compared to my CS classes, it was like a breath of fresh air. (I actually double-booked my afternoons, and walked out of Operating Systems halfway through class to go study ancient Peruvian pottery. It was therapeutic.) I felt like a curiosity at first, but never trivialized or resented. As always, I gravitated towards a couple other people in the department as friends, but they didn't happen to be men.

The pattern I saw was not that men (or the dominant sex) are trivializing and resentment-laden, but that specific departments were. Even the women in the CS department were into the macho-geek BS, and a lot of us men hated it.

That's why we're offended by the suggestion that there should be special anything for women in CS. A lot of us men want computing to grow up, too, and we feel excluded by these women-only programs. There's your sex discrimination.

Alex39172• 18 years ago

"Now imagine going through that every day in your college career."

Except for the US college system is dominated by women. There are roughly 6.4 million men and 8.7 million women currently enrolled in college. By 2016 the gap will jump to 7 million men and 10.3 million women. And since the top colleges can get away with accepting more men to even out the gender ratios, that means the median college classroom is entirely dominated by women except for a few niche departments like computer science and physics.

jwilliams• 18 years ago

> I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things.

I'm sure you believe this yourself, you behave like this, and you have probably witnessed this a great deal - but this doesn't necessarily generalize.

However, there has been a lot of (empirical) research into this area and it's shown that this still is an issue. For example: http://psy.ex.ac.uk/seorg/glasscliff/

bootload3• 18 years ago

"... I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things ..."

Maybe because you are a member (myself included) of a homogeneous monk-like cloistered society that meets daily with your own kind where everyone knows the secret hand-shake and acknowledges you. Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore if you are different you are going to be side-lined.

I guess the argument killer here is "put your hands up all those who would trade places as a man to be a women in a male dominated - some say one of the last - in the software industry?".

Your argument of course is not a new one. The best example I can think of is hiring musicians for Orchestra. You would think that gender would not be a problem. Surely a musician who is good enough would get a job in a Orchestra based on musical ability in the "12 minute recital" alone? Yet Orchestras have been a male dominated industry ~ http://www.polyphonic.org/panels.php?id=7&day=1 Read here more on the debate on Orchestral selection and among other things gender.

Is this issue another structural issue within Startups where gender dominance is only skills based? Or are there entry hurdles that can be knocked down with some small changes? Don't we all want as many high quality entrepreneurs and Startups to florish? Or is it a "foo only club?" where you can join in as long as you are one of "us"?

trevelyan• 18 years ago

> Given that nobody does lone-programming anymore

Really? I need a support group.

jimbokun9• 18 years ago

I thought some orchestras started having blind auditions, where the performer is behind some kind of opaque barrier?

zasz• 18 years ago

I'm all for such groups targeted exclusively for minorities, even if there were no longer any discrimination.

Suppose you're a member of minority M, looking to get into group G, which is dominated by members of group D, who are all significantly different in some very obvious way. Wouldn't you personally like a little reassurance from someone else in M who's made it in G, that you too can do well? It's just plain human insecurity. As a girl who takes a lot of CS classes, even though I never experience any hostility from the guys in the classes, it just feels a little weird. I certainly do feel more insecure. Like it or not, just because so many more guys are in these classes, girls form a stereotype of CS as being something for guys and not for them. They have to hear that message from a girl, a living counterexample, to shake that stereotype. Being outnumbered by guys everywhere does nothing but reinforce stereotypes.

jimbokun9• 18 years ago

I lived in Japan twice for the summer, and once for a whole year.

I was really into Japanese culture and language, and was very excited to immerse myself in the whole experience all 3 times. For the two summers, this was not a problem. I took the same approach for my year long stay.

However, after month 4 or 5, I totally burned out. I was spending all week and all weekend speaking Japanese, which I was improving at a lot, but still required a lot more mental effort than speaking English. Beyond that, there are just lots of little cultural things to always be mindful of and this added a small but constant burden, too.

It was at this time that I started attending an English speaking church, attended by ex-pats. One thing I discovered was that, even if the person was Taiwanese and we were speaking Japanese because that was the one common language between us, we still agreed on the same things that were weird about Japan.

Having this support group made a world of difference. I was still in a Japanese environment, spending most days speaking mostly Japanese, but I had an outlet.

I suspect this is what women get from having female connections in the CS/programming world. As much as our society sometimes tries to ignore the fact, men and women are different enough that it is occasionally necessary to get away from the other culture and retreat into your own, even if only to hear someone agree about how weird the other culture can be.

Prrometheus• 18 years ago

I think most arguments for "diversity" are bullshyt. However, I can see how otherwise qualified female applicants might feel intimidated by an organization that is 95%+ male. Increasing the number of females in the program could therefore increase the average quality of the founder pool.

But yes, I don't see any worth in "diversity" for its own sake, unless we are talking about a diversity of skill-sets, knowledge, or something else worth talking about.

maurycy• 18 years ago

Diversity is good because when members have different experiences, and thus point of views.

"Point of view is worth 80 IQ points"

silencio2• 18 years ago

>I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things.

Sex shouldn't matter, but how people perceive me due to my sex could have an impact on how I do things.

I know the following would make me sound like a really passive aggressive person, but I write some awful code when someone pisses me off. One time in school I had no choice over who to partner with, and my partner was this awful guy who told me explicitly that he didn't want to work with me because I was female. In the end I wrote most of the code anyway (all he'd provide is copy-pasted code labelled file1, file2, file3 etc. either cause he just didn't know how to do anything or it was just him being passive aggressive at being forced to work with me), but it ended up being the most obfuscated, profanity-laced code I had ever written. I spent quite a bit of time refactoring and deleting comments before submitting it.

I would never do that professionally (instead I go and rant on IRC or twitter for a bit to friends), but I can say I am sometimes tired of the sexism (just like you are tired of the double standard) and it affects me once in a while, and that certainly affects the work I do in myriad ways.

scott_s3• 18 years ago

Your second paragraph is why attempts like this author's exist. The assumption is that the gender imbalance in our field is cultural, not biological. She's trying to fix that imbalance.

okeumeni• 18 years ago

I like and appreciate this effort on behalf of women. I want my girls to grow up feeling comfortable getting involve in hacking because of some of you out there playing the role model for them.

All through my career I have seen a handful of women hackers and some were pretty damn good ones. Keep on pushing girls!!

fallentimes5• 18 years ago

"At the last Y Combinator Demo Day I attended, there were 3 women in a room of over 100 people. That just seems a bit low to me, and I have no doubt that it reflects the candidate pool"

I'm glad she mentioned this. How could Livingston not want more women founders? She's trapped with 80 dudes six months out of the year.

I'm certainly for equal treatment, but whether the media wants to admit it or not - people are different. That's why Title 9, quota hiring and Chief Diversity officers (gag!) have been such utter failures. Right idea, wrong execution. Working in admissions in school was one of the most eye opening things I've ever done. Some of the other efforts are great, but most come off as discriminating double standards.

aston4• 18 years ago

Just curious whether you'd be willing to share some of those eye-opening insights with us.

fallentimes5• 18 years ago

Wouldn't really call them insights, but sure.

HHI 60k, Black, 2.1 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 16 - Accepted.

HHI 50k, White, 3.2 GPA, similar EC, no record, ACT Score 22 - Rejected.

Most were variations of that. That is, less qualified applicants in similar economic situations were admitted solely because of race. Obviously I knew these practices existed (oh hai Division 1 athletics), I was just surprised how blatant it was especially with economic situations being roughly equal in many of the cases. Scholarships were even worse, but seeing as it was a few years ago, I don't remember specific cases. Just apply the above to general scholarship fund stuff.

Edit: Didn't like how the first sentence read.

ALee2• 18 years ago

For all the gents out there, please stop griping. We need more women in startups (seriously, have you been to the meat market parties after tech events?!).

Moreover, it'll give lonely male hackers more choice beyond the no talent Julia whatsherface-cant-get-back-my-15minoflife-after-reading-her-lameness-in-Wired, the designer and "community" chicks, the high-powered VC women, and the one or two technical female founders (re Leah Culver).

I've met some really talented technical women out there (see the women of Meebo) and I've learned a lot from just talking to them and giving them the leg up of YC, LB, or TS would be a good move.

meredydd2• 18 years ago

We need more women in startups (seriously, have you been to the meat market parties after tech events?!) ... Moreover, it'll give lonely male hackers more choice

Although you probably didn't mean it, this attitude is most definitely Part Of The Problem. It's a pain because you're right - in an ideal, evenly-divided environment, there would be a lot of within-group dating, and everyone would be fine with that.

The problem is that, as long as there's a significant imbalance, the constant romantic interest is going to be seriously offputting for the few women in the group.

The men don't even need to be malicious or socially maladroit (although, let's face it, as a group hackers tend to lack social skills, which makes things much worse). What would be a perfectly reasonable level of possible romantic interest from each individual person rapidly becomes intolerable if it's all concentrated on the lone female in a big group of males. Which is why you hear so many female geeks screaming "Stop trying to date me, damn it, and look at my code!"

opal4• 18 years ago

Just to add, the guys have it far worse in this situation.

pinkgarage5• 18 years ago

This is a fascinating set of responses. For those men who don't see the need and therefore don't approve, I wonder why you are objecting? For those who see this as exclusionary, you might ask yourself whether an all white organization seems meant for and welcoming to a person of color, and then swap out gender and see what your response is. Just because women live in a world where most engineering cultures are set by men, that doesn't mean that everyone, women and men, are impacted by the lack of diversity and gender difference. As someone who took a woman-founded team to TechStars (yep, and I'm not an engineer, either), we found a strong interest there in supporting many diverse types of teams as they also sought to support the strongest teams they could find that year. I left a voice mail for Jessica Livingston letting her know that we were going to do this before we started it, and if I'd been more aware of the deadlines earlier, I would have reached out earlier and started it earlier. There are no factors except culture, comfort and class that make it neccessary for 98% of the applicants and teams selected for YCombinator--or any competitive program--to be male. This mentoring effort, which I started with some friends, is meant to give women who qualify and want to apply some support that they may perceive as lacking in a program that, to date, has been almost exclusively male, as are most programs in the start up world. Will this effort be exclusive to YCombnator? I think not. But you're our first noble experiment, and if you're reading this and are a woman who'd like mentoring or to support this, email us at pinkgaragementors@gmail.com --Susan Mernit

jodie• 18 years ago

I'm applying for this year's cycle and have sent pinkgaragementors a couple of emails with no reply. Any other way to get in touch?

pinkgarage5• 18 years ago

jodie--the email is pinkgaragementors@gmail.com or email me directly via my blog-susan mernit

lemonysnicket• 18 years ago

shouldn't the mentoring be for your start-up in general, and not just the YC app?

cmos2• 18 years ago

I think this is a great idea! She is offering help.

Frankly, this is the first post I've read where someone is offering plain and simple help. It would be great if she could help everyone, but her available 'free helping' time is I'm sure limited, and she choose a filter to limit the pool and to serve her personal goals as well.

I say thank you!

arien• 18 years ago

I'm a girl and found the suggestion interesting. Support when you are starting is apreciated :)

Sometimes you need someone to look upon, who you can use as inspiration or for support. The closer they are to you the better you tend to feel. For example, I would look first for a local incubator (Spain) instead of aiming for a foreign one (e.g. US), but that doesn't mean the foreign ones aren't as good, just that I probably will feel more comfy on the one that's closer and consider we will understand each other better. This of course can be true or not, and I will find out eventually.

Before thinking about "does genre matter", think of the subject and change genre for something else. Does it sound normal to you? Then why the controversy when it's about genre (or race, politics or whatever)? This is just a proposition to try to bring more players into the game :)

blurry• 18 years ago

As a female/startup co-founder, I find it rather unfortunate that Christine chose to close with:

Let's work constructively to get more bright young women to apply.

Why young? Are women over 30 over-represented among start-up founders? Does she feel that we are ticking time bombs waiting to run off to have babies? Is she simply uncomfortable mentoring someone slightly older? What is it?

I don't question the intentions. But I do question the quality of a mentoring group where the mentors themselves carry outdated self-defeating stereotypes. Reminds me of an otherwise intelligent Indian friend of mine who is completely hung up about having darker skin.

lisawilliams• 18 years ago

My sense is that most of the YC applicants are not just male but under 30. Is this incorrect?

I am one of the mentors in the group and participated in TechStars at the grand old age of 38 and have two young children, and I can say that our group would be happy to work with applicants of any age. I don't believe that Christine's comment is meant to indicate our support of women within a particular age range (or whether they have or plan to have children) -- it's a reference to what we believe the median age of YC applicants are.

Your comment does make me wonder, however: what is that number? Does anyone know?

spacejockeys2• 18 years ago

Lisa is correct - the comment was pragmatic, not didactic. I don't know the actual median age of the YC applicant pool, but in my own anecdotal and unscientific experience (e.g., who have I met in person at events, or heard a pitch from) the median YC participant is around 23, and has yet to develop the familiarity with pitching that comes from years in the industry. Also, if program awareness comes from social networking or from university outreach, I'd expect a dominant concentration of 20-somethings in the pool.

webwright2• 18 years ago

Is it ever okay to suggest that a demographic balance is just fine?

There is a lack of european-descent long-distance runners in the top tiers. Not too many woman play football. Very few men do much knitting. Do we need outreach and mentoring to change make sure that all groups are a mirror of the world's demographic makeup?

Women and men are different, and perhaps the reason that software startups are male-dominated speaks to that difference rather than a social issue. In other words, perhaps our society is that way because of how we are rather than how we are being driven by our society.

All that being said, I met Christine at Demo Day was was very impressed-- if she's offering to mentor you, you should take her up on it. If you couldn't/wouldn't have the guts to dive in and kick ass without this mentorship/support group, I'd suggest that you probably aren't temperamentally suited to be an entrepreneur.

pinkgarage5• 18 years ago

So white males are the most affluent, successful class because of their geneitics? ROFL.

webwright2• 18 years ago

Feel free to read up on what a Straw Man Argument is at your leisure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

axod3• 18 years ago

Surely this could have been worded to come accross as slightly less offensive:

"Y Combinator Mentoring from prominent businesswomen".

misuba3• 18 years ago

And less accurate, yes.

Considered asking yourself why something being for women is offensive?

axod3• 18 years ago

Sure, for the same reason if something is for whites only it's offensive, or for men only.

It's pointless anyway... Why aren't there more white basketball players? Racism? Probably more likely the same reason there aren't more women founders.

You have to admit a special school only for white basketball players would be pretty offensive. no?

Y Combinator Mentoring for Women

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