New study suggests people with dark personalities weaponize victimhood (2021)

https://www.psypost.org/2021/02/new-study-suggests-people-with-dark-personalities-weaponize-victimhood-to-gain-advantage-over-others-59806

by doener • 4 years ago

200 141 4 years ago

psypost.org

kayodelycaon2• 4 years ago

New study, the sky is blue the majority of the time.

Anyone with a "dark personality" will use any means of manipulation they can. This includes playing on people's sympathy.

Slight tangent to the article which is more generic:

The sad fact is things like acceptance of mental health and acknowledgement that sexual assault is far more common than people want to amit, will result in more people claiming these things falsely. Which causes further harm to the people this would help.

denton-scratch• 4 years ago

Yeah, I gave up after a few paras. Manipulative folk gonna manipulate.

anxiously• 4 years ago

The article talks about signals of virtue and victimhood being exploited by people high in the dark triad to get what they want.

I don't think it is tied specifically to the dark triad at all.. but maybe people high in any of the triad have learned to exploit the technique to get what they want.

You could make the case that virtue signaling and victimhood was always a conscious or unconscious act to extract something of value from people.

mjburgess2• 4 years ago

Sure, under a kinda evo-psych/behavioural-eco analysis of why evolution, over a long span, has made us responsive to these signals.. yes.

But that's a radically different kind of analysis than intention, which is under-determined by evolution. ie., say we're all subject to the same evo forces, but we all intend different things.

To say that narcissists exploit a "victim-compassion" response is very different than saying genuine victims do. They "give off" the "genuine victim" signal with with good reasons and intending to act on those reasons, people help.

Narcissists exploit the same signal but with the wrong reasons.

s1artibartfast11• 4 years ago

This actually an interesting question.

I would counter that the narcissists also have the same reasons as "true" victims. They seek to personally benefit from the compassion of others.

What sets them apart is not the motive or reason, but the execution. Narcissists are more apt to use deception to cultivate compassion.

dkarl2• 4 years ago

I think you're right that it's widespread beyond consciously selfish people. Most people naturally reproduce whatever behavior seems to be socially rewarded, and some people don't think very hard into it.

For example, in my social group, who as you can imagine are a bunch of well-off privileged people, there is a small but persistent minority of people who complain about ills that plague less privileged people as if they affected them, too. They aren't a minority of the most selfish people; they might be a pious bunch but they're mostly just not thinking.

So I hear complaints about anxiety over employment, from people with Ivy League degrees who could have ten interviews for higher pay lined up within 48 hours if they wanted. And not just acknowledgment of the emotions that everybody feels regardless of privilege, but explicitly linking their anxiety to real economic precarity and political and policy injustices.

Complaints about how difficult it is to pay for health care, from people who have 1% incomes and walk out of a complex surgery owing a few hundred bucks. That's not the health care crisis that people are talking about!

Complaints about exploitative employment, from salaried people who can and do take a few days off whenever they want, for whatever reason they want, and can disappear from work anytime, no matter how awkward the timing, with no questions asked by saying the words "mental health."

These people aren't consciously lying, but they aren't thinking concretely enough to realize that people aren't going to validate and applaud their words like they would if they came out of the mouth of someone less privileged.

I tell them that if privileged people exploit the sensitivity to mental health in the workplace to such a ridiculous degree, there might be a backlash against it before some people even begin to see the benefits. And if people learn to associate "health care crisis" and "food islands" with wealthy people complaining about nearly imperceptible lifestyle compromises, it's going to make it much harder to make progress politically.

But they don't get it. They aren't thinking below the surface. They're just thinking "people sympathize with and applaud these kinds of complaints so I should voice them as well."

mistrial92• 4 years ago

overall this is real but, how should people of conscience act? Maybe you are annoyed with their privileges, more than your respect for conscience feelings on their part?

The ages-old solution here is to act collectively, through a group voice, lessening the individual differences. Many religious groups through the generations serve exactly this function.

rougka6• 4 years ago

Just something I am curious about, privilege tends to mean an unfair advantage given to a group if I get it right. So how is an Ivy League education a privilege? Doesn’t it require a lot of hard work to get into or finish such school? Isn’t it something rightfully gained?

sharkbird2• 4 years ago

Is anybody surprised by this?

Manipulative people will always use whatever is the popular/dominant ideology of their time and location to get any sort of benefit they can. It might be manifested as being the most fervent communist, fascist, pious/religious, or whatever it is the the society at the time holds high and dear. In our times it just happens to be victimhood and social justice things.

icare_1er• 4 years ago

It takes around 1 or 2 years for the current LGBT flag to become outdated until a new minority in the minority wants its own colors and its own letter.

kayodelycaon2• 4 years ago

As a member of an LGBT minority not on the flag, I wish we would just stick with the six-color flag.

I feel like the constant bickering over who should be included on the flag distracts from the real problems.

dnissley2• 4 years ago

No. But we are often told to always believe those claiming victimhood.

Karellen• 4 years ago

Just because a bunch of dark triad types have a propensity for lying about having been victimised, does not mean that most people who say they've been victimised are dark triad types lying about it.

Yes, you should keep in the back of your mind that it's possible that someone who claims to be victimised might not be telling the truth, but your first instinct should be a presumption that they're telling the truth, and to act with compassion as if they are. Especially if you're not familiar with the ways in which they claim to have been victimised - your instincts about how you think that plays out might not be great if you've not actually been through it yourself.

tareqak• 4 years ago

This article is from February 26, 2021.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

Narcissists have completely invaded and taken over every “safe space” as the predators they are. This has been my going thesis for a while now.

Most humans have natural empathy for each other. There is a natural sense of fairness, desire for equanimity and caring for others that is built in to our social systems. This was recently experimentally shown that all humans share two social traits: a sense of fairness and that unprovoked violence is unjust

Over the last 70-80 years society has made huge strides (though nowhere near "done") in supporting entire classes of people who have been systematically oppressed or otherwise victims of marginalization.

More importantly though, we as a society have decided to give more grace and patience to victims because they need healing and support - something that non-victims and non-protected people don't get because they simply don't need it as much.

Further we have systematically expanded the definition of what a victim looks like. I recall as a child that physical abuse was the only thing we would consider “abuse” but now we know better. Mental and emotional abuse can be as devastating if not more than physical, so we give grace to those who are struggling mentally – and usually in ways that do not present obviously.

As a species, we have righteously determined that it is traumatic, crude and uncouth to interrogate someone on their victim credentials in order to prove they are actual victims. So the barrier to entry for being part of a marginalized group is simply telling your story.

To people who aren't victims, this looks like a power shift but also a "break" from having to be a good person. Specifically there is a sense that political/social power is being systematically transferred from non-protected groups that have traditionally held power, to marginalized or protected classes of people.

Whether the above shift in political power is true or not is irrelevant - as the true nature of who holds power hasn't shifted in any significant way from what I can tell.

Malignant narcissists want to play life on easy and if throwing up a victim card just works then they will lie and do whatever it takes to be part of that group.

So what can a malignant narcissist to do if they aren't truly a victim, that will confer on them the most prized status, that of victim?

The answer is simple: Join a traditionally oppressed community by lying about your experience, exploiting the inclusive nature of the community so you can claim the moral high ground as a victim, usurp the organization for your own ends and continue to keep marginalized people oppressed.

Rachel Dolezal [1] is the poster child of this.

So, how do you spot it?

At least for me, the most obvious cases are when a person from a non-protected class, identifies strongly and loudly as someone from a marginalized or protected group - especially if that marginalization is subtle and/or non-verifiable.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

BlargMcLarg3• 4 years ago

At least for me, the most obvious cases are when a person from a non-protected class

That only works for the very obvious cases. Plenty of 'protected class' individuals exist who in reality live far more privileged than those not in a 'protected class'.

The basis being people are trying to substitute empathy and common sense with catch-all rules. Which in the context of humans has worked out a grand total of 0 times across our entire existence.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

Indeed - hence my caveat

mistrial92• 4 years ago

or this one:

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/tv/3414502/woman-kille...

testfoobar• 4 years ago

It has been my experience that most people cannot recognize narcissists.

This is useful: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/...

MichaelZuo2• 4 years ago

As a species, we have righteously determined that it is traumatic, crude and uncouth to interrogate someone on their victim credentials in order to prove they are actual victims. So the barrier to entry for being part of a marginalized group is simply telling your story.

No? If this is a joke it seems like an odd place to put it.

Otherwise you really need to get out more and talk with ordinary folks anywhere in the world, especially in the construction trades, because the vast majority of them don't ascribe to this at all.

This kind of catastrophic virtue signalling spiral simply doesn't occur among large segments of the working population.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

Not a joke at all - and I fully agree that those spirals aren't common in regular everyday life because most people aren't dealing with malignant narcissists.

I work with "ordinary folks" everyday and have since forever. With only maybe one or two notable exceptions, if someone shares a personal story of being a victim in a sober way, I've never encountered anything other than sympathetic responses.

Perhaps you are thinking of "suck it up" culture - which is emphatically not what we are discussing here, and is quite different - and one I have almost 20 years of experience with as a former Military Officer and Iraq war veteran.

rideontime• 4 years ago

I have nothing to contribute but it's nice to see someone can appreciate the positive changes that have been made while also acknowledging the problems that have arisen as a result. Without addressing these, we risk ceding to the reactionaries with their much simpler "solutions."

jl6• 4 years ago

exploiting the inclusive nature of the community

This is why standards and boundaries are important, and why inclusivity is not an unalloyed virtue.

nadieyninguno• 4 years ago

as the true nature of who holds power hasn't shifted in any significant way from what I can tell.

Well, in some sense the big, true power-holders haven't really shifted all that much. You still have an unfortunate amount of Iraq war fanboys in the Federal world. There is still a mess of "old white guy" in business. Only, this isn't a whole, true, and good picture for the Average Joe. To a bottom-status person there is a contiuum of power above.

Now, if a "victim class" makes a stink at work a non-victim is liable to be on the losing end even if the "victim" is a genuine shit-bag. This isn't particularly new to the era, the "Jesse Jackson" victim-grifter class has existed for decades now but much like publishing, the internet has democratized the ability to raise a lynch mob against a target.

EDIT: It would be swell if the down-voter would be forced to provide some semblance of feedback...

bnralt• 4 years ago

So what can a malignant narcissist to do if they aren't truly a victim, that will confer on them the most prized status, that of victim? The answer is simple: Join a traditionally oppressed community by lying about your experience, exploiting the inclusive nature of the community so you can claim the moral high ground as a victim, usurp the organization for your own ends and continue to keep marginalized people oppressed.

Or they could simply be members of the marginalized group. People in such groups are still human beings, and a certain percentage of all humans are "malignant narcissists." It's simply part of the human experience. You don't need to go to the lengths of looking for people lying about identification to find them.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

Yes, however the core of the thesis I am making is this:

Affinity groups for marginalized populations attract malignant narcissists at a higher rate than other organizations

So you should always be alert for them, but even more alert if you are part of a marginalized group, as you're at higher risk of exploitation

P5fRxh5kUvp2th3• 4 years ago

The issue is they take over and then they hurt the very people trying to be helped.

When I was young, hearing that someone was raped immediately brought to mind an understanding of the heinousness of the crime.

Today I assume it's not true and start asking questions. Do I like having that mindset? No, I obviously don't want anyone to be raped, men and women included.

But at some point I have to protect _MYSELF_ from manipulation, and these people manipulate entirely too often. And the people who are truly hurt by this are the ones who truly need help.

I mean hell, when I see a statistic about rape my first question is to see the questions asked in the poll. Because it turns out, many of the respondents THEMSELVES wouldn't consider their response to imply rape, but it gets labelled as such for the statistics.

tboyd47• 4 years ago

So, how do you spot it?

One way that's worked for me in the past is to give in slightly to the person's demands (even by just conceding their point in an argument), and observe how they react. If this cools their rage, then they are expressing sincere pain due to a wrong that has been done to them, and only desire justice in some form. This person has legitimate concerns and deserves support.

If getting their demands met enrages them even more, then by listening to them you are only feeding a fire in their heart that will consume everything if allowed to. You have to stay away from those people.

Emotions cause some noise in this process so you shouldn't rush to judgment.

I call this the difference between "Social Justice Warriors" (shameful that this has become a negative term because being a warrior for social justice describes every great leader) and "Social Grudge Warriors".

darth_avocado• 4 years ago

Most narcissists thrive on social validation. Virtue signaling is almost always a narcissistic trait. Just observing people or having a conversation with them that involves solving a problem, but not necessarily their way, straight up outs narcissists and their tendencies.

malfist• 4 years ago

There is another complication here though. I remember from my years as a political activist in college, those years can be quite angry, about everything. It's very easy to fall into the outrage trap, and there's also peer pressure to do so if your other friends are involved.

It's something that _most_ people grow out of and mature and realize that not every slight is intentional and demands wrath and justice. To be clear, I'm not saying they don't have a point, but that sometimes their messaging is very, very aggressive.

My rule of thumb follows yours, but I also make allowances for young people striving to make their mark in ways their peers tell them they should.

snarfy• 4 years ago

The whole neurodivergent crowd can cry me a river.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

No, this is not what you should take away from my comment

rayiner3• 4 years ago

To people who aren't victims, this looks like a power shift but also a "break" from having to be a good person. Specifically there is a sense that political/social power is being systematically transferred from non-protected groups that have traditionally held power, to marginalized or protected classes of people. Whether the above shift in political power is true or not is irrelevant - as the true nature of who holds power hasn't shifted in any significant way from what I can tell.

The power hasn't shifted, but the rules for how that power is used have changed. And that has real-world impacts.

To use an example, Joe Biden is an old white guy, like all but one President before him. In that sense the power hasn't shifted. But his administration has created government programs that make benefits available to, e.g., wealthy Indians, but not poor Appalachians: https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/sba-cant-priorit.... That's an economically meaningful change in how power is used.

To use another example, universities, film, the media, etc., are still controlled by white people. But those white people openly discriminate in favor of non-whites, creating a powerful incentive to identify as some sort of minority and make that identification a prominent part of one's scholarship.

In my view, America has become minoritarian, in a way that has diverted our attention from the general welfare, and created perverse incentives for members of minority groups. The story from the other day is a great example: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/25/us/sundance-jihad-rehab-m.... We have created a system where a Lebanese-American film maker has every incentive to attack a movie about Muslims made by a white woman, regardless of the movie's merit. We should not be surprised that people respond to those incentives.

AndrewKemendo8• 4 years ago

Fully concur here, and it's really confusing

"Good Intentions" Pavers now for sale

adamgordonbell• 4 years ago

I watched a documentary about Rachel Dolezal and obviously documentaries have an perspective of their own, but her story didn't seem to be a simple one of narcissism. She seemed genuine in her beliefs.

TinkersW• 4 years ago

I just assume anyone that brings up such topics regularly is a narcissist and ignore them.

Aunche• 4 years ago

I don't think it's narcissists for the most part that are abusing victimhood. In most cases, it's just regular people who are taking advantage of people's empathy, but I suspect that they don't even know that they're doing it. When you're used to receiving something unconditionally, you start to treat it as an entitlement.

photochemsyn• 4 years ago

This quote is a bit odd, it could easily be interpreted as a justification for authoritarian rule by entitled criminals:

"“Fortune and human imperfection assure that at some point in life everyone will experience suffering, disadvantage, or mistreatment,” wrote the authors of the new study. “When this happens, there will be some who face their burdens in silence, treating it as a private matter they must work out for themselves..."

So, if one is a victim of a crime, or repression, or some other injustice, and one makes it a public issue (by, for example, seeking redress in a court of law), one is engaging in 'narcissisim, psychopathy and Machiavellianism'? What does the US Constitution have to say about this?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Yes there are those who abuse the courts (and the court of public opinion) in the manner the authors describe, but I think the vast majority of cases don't fall into that category.

thegrimmest• 4 years ago

I think the problem is that we're constantly expanding the definition of "social injustice". Can you propose a bounded definition for the term?

kypro• 4 years ago

I feel there's a big difference between people who say something like, "here's why I think I'm a victim of [x]" and "I'm a victim, so I deserve [y]".

I know when kids say they "deserve" anything I try to shut it down because while it may be true in some cases I think to embrace that kind of perspective can be damaging. In my opinion you shouldn't expect anything from the world, you should simply seek to be understood. If people understand your struggles then they most of the time they'll treat you well instinctively. Simply demanding that your understood and that you should be given what you deserve isn't a good way to approach things.

That said, I'll be honest and admit that I 100% weaponise victimhood if I feel I'm being attacked unfairly. When people start accusing me of being x, y or z, then I'll happily twist that back around on them by playing my own victim cards.

9wzYQbTYsAIc4• 4 years ago

If people understand your struggles then they most of the time they'll treat you well instinctively

That’s the crux of all social issues, isn’t it?

Understanding the other means allowing yourself to be stood over and to stand under the other.

Of course, it is quite difficult to determine and come to a consensus on the limits of understanding.

Godwin’s Law, etc.

xtiansimon• 4 years ago

“Understanding the other means allowing yourself to be stood over and to stand under the other.”

What does that mean? Is this some kind of post-modern critique of meaning?

rayiner3• 4 years ago

In my opinion you shouldn't expect anything from the world, you should simply seek to be understood.

That’s expecting something, isn’t it? I much prefer the convention in Asia: don’t make yourself a burden; seek to make things easier for the people around you.

musicale• 4 years ago

don’t make yourself a burden; seek to make things easier for the people around you

It helps to stay young, rich, beautiful, healthy and free of any disability.

s1artibartfast11• 4 years ago

I think that there is something profoundly wrong when people aspire to be the victim rather than their hero in their own personal narrative. It is a form of stunted emotional growth. Virtue arises from overcoming challenges, not just suffering.

Ascribing virtue to suffering itself leads to a race to the bottom, where the most noble society is that which suffers the most

jimmyjazz14• 4 years ago

Its easier to be a victim than a hero even in peoples minds.

PartiallyTyped• 4 years ago

Sometimes you get tired of everything being a constant fight from the moment you were born.

Sometimes you are tired of grinding endlessly with little if anything to show for it, all because we threw a bad dice at birth.

s1artibartfast11• 4 years ago

Having personally struggled with serious depression and feelings of victimhood, I actually disagree.

I can confidently say that it is a lot easier to go through life not feeling like a victim.

It takes extra work and introspection to change states, but it is far easier in the long run.

rohitb91• 4 years ago

Prizes and rewards are given out for being the biggest victim, so it's natural that people want to out-victim one another for additional resources. Anytime there's resources at stake, people will do what they can to gain them. In Canada it's so perverse that it seems like everyday someone is outed, after gaining a prestigious position, for not having any indigenous heritage at all. But, they used that status to rapidly gain resources over competitors.

bombcar2• 4 years ago

This is it; they're still the hero in their narrative, it's just that this hero overcomes massive victimization.

That they use the victimization as power over others may not even be consciously acknowledged by them, or others.

houstonn• 4 years ago

Given the incentives, it's an obvious outcome. This occurs in the United States as well.

34% of white Americans who applied to colleges or universities admit to lying about being a racial minority on their application

48% of people who lied claimed to be Native American

3/4 of people who faked being a racial minority on their applications were accepted by the colleges to which they lied

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/57...

frankthedog• 4 years ago

This is the problem with favoring equity over equality. Where equality’s aim is to reduce all bias in decision making, equity’s aim is to introduce bias for the benefit of a subset of the population. Naturally, people will vie to be in the population that the equity culture’s bias favors.

MonkeyMalarky• 4 years ago

Which is sad because natives were massively victimized by the Canadian government. It's not exactly a prize or reward, more like a few peanuts being thrown at them by the government to shut up and bugger off.

andrewclunn2• 4 years ago

Controversial views aside, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged really nailed the victimhood as cover for corruption narrative. The villains are that much more detestable because they're not competent people, they simply prevent others from out competing them through backroom deals, while claiming that it's to help the poor and downtrodden.

groby_b• 4 years ago

I'd suggest that anybody over 16 who uses Ayn Rand as an explanation (or model) for human behavior should spend a while exploring the humanities.

lo_zamoyski3• 4 years ago

Much better resources than Rand are Nietzsche and Scheler (I know Rand draws from the former, per her own admission, but she doesn't have the penetrating intellect of the others). The "slave morality" Nietzsche discusses is precisely this inverted morality founded on ressentiment[0] toward the strong. From the "Genealogy of Morals":

"There is nothing very odd about lambs disliking birds of prey, but this is no reason for holding it against large birds of prey that they carry off lambs. And when the lambs whisper among themselves, 'These birds of prey are evil, and does this not give us a right to say that whatever of the opposite of a bird of prey must be good?', there is nothing intrinsically wrong with such an argument - though the birds of prey will look somewhat quizzically and say, 'We have nothing against these good lambs; in fact, we love them; nothing tastes better than a tender lamb."

This particular quote is a bit facetious, I think, because elsewhere Nietzsche is rather disgusted with slave morality as life-denying instead of life-affirming. But even if we disagree with some of Nietzsche's conclusions and characterizations (as fun as he can be to read and as insightful as some of his writings are, he was a bit nuts and some of his criticisms misplaced), we can certainly observe that ressentiment and envy cause people to invert the moral order within themselves, thus paving the way for their own self-destruction.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment

pfisherman• 4 years ago

I think the idea is that it takes courage / grit to overcome adversity. Some people have faced real adversity. For example, growing up in a gang infested neighborhood, where your social network is mostly criminals and junkies is a serious handicap. Others are just lying to make themselves look better.

enaaem• 4 years ago

I find that victim hood and superiority complex tend to go hand in hand.

lo_zamoyski3• 4 years ago

This is true (the article talks about some of what follows).

Feelings of weakness, inferiority, and envy, combined with pride, create the temptation to overcompensate (and involve all sorts of mental gymnastics involving denial, false fungibility of qualities, etc). So-called narcissists function this way which is why having their true character revealed causes such intense rage. It makes public what they feel about themselves, but wish to conceal.

Those who employ the victimhood strategy, specifically, lack the confidence or the ability to effectively bluff strength and will instead turn to manipulative and underhanded strategies like being a "nice guy", making others feel guilty, or trying to arouse feelings of pity in others in order to extract some good they could not, or believe they could not, receive otherwise. True victimhood presupposes injustice and injustice implies restitution and the legitimacy of some proportional degree of anger. Thus, by accepting a victim identity, entitled people rationalize (to themselves) their own chutzpah in making unjust claims of other people and demonizing and retaliating against those who refuse to be exploited by their emotional bullying. (This chutzpah is to be distinguished from boldness; fortune favors the bold, and the bold do not act from a dark place of entitlement, but the optimistic pursuit of opportunity.)

lowbloodsugar• 4 years ago

If they are winning, then they are the hero in their personal narrative. Victimhood is just another piece on the chess board for these people.

MichaelCollins8• 4 years ago

This is the root of my beef with the Beatitudes.

It's good to be hungry, because you will be well fed. It's bad to be well fed, because you will be hungry. Really? To me it seems like the Beatitudes make victimhood into virtue.

UncleOxidant4• 4 years ago

Note that it says:

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied." Matthew 5:6

This verse isn't talking about physical hunger caused by lack of food. Apparently if you read it in the original greek righteousness and justice are interchangable here. What it's saying is that people who suffer injustice in this life and hunger and thirst for that injustice to be made right will be satisfied.

katabasis2• 4 years ago

The philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche had a famous critique of Christianity and modern Western morality that operated along similar lines, spelled out most famously in the book "On the Genealogy of Morals". He contrasts Classical virtue-based morality with the contemporary notion of the inherent virtue of suffering.

People who suffered from oppression... and who were denied any effective recourse by relative powerlessness—developed a persistent, corrosive emotional pattern of resentful hatred against their enemies, which Nietzsche calls ressentiment. [1]

In his view modern society was poisoned by "ressentiment", leaving people unable to find authentic happiness as a result.

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

s1artibartfast11• 4 years ago

Interesting idea.

It is hard to tell from the quote, but is he claiming that that modern views infer virtue from holding hatred/ resentment?

akomtu• 4 years ago

Those just seek approval from others. It's one of three undesireable lines of growth: by seeking approval from superiors, by desiring to look better than peers and by desiring to invoke fear. All three can be traced to the early childhood of the individual: those who grew up in fear will learn to see the world thru this lens and so on. The three desireable lines of growth are: by compassion to others, by seeking the truth and by action of self sacrifice (not necesserarily in the literal sense).

bvoq• 4 years ago

In my experience the people who need the most help are those that don't ask for it but are still looking around helpless or grumble. It's a nice social cue to pick up on and feels great to help people like this. Grumbling is a nice signal of: If you can spare a hand, I will be happy.

jmnicolas• 4 years ago

On the other hand when I'm grumbling it's because I want to be left alone.

throwaway290• 4 years ago

Is this related to the problem of teenagers glorifying mental illness? Awareness and tolerance is good, but receiving attention by simply claiming you have it is addictive especially for those who are not getting enough attention e.g. from parents. I wonder if this is orthogonal to the topic or how it starts...

chatterhead• 4 years ago

Yes, you are thinking down the correct thread. It gets scarier the further you go. Not because what it implies people are willing to do, but what people can be made to become.

fallingfrog• 4 years ago

On a macro scale, the Christian right and certain specific politicians do appear to have an unwarranted persecution complex.

IceHegel• 4 years ago

Why would we need a study to tell us this?

dnissley2• 4 years ago

We live in an age where we are often told to always believe those claiming victimhood.

hjkl02• 4 years ago

I have never heard this ridiculous claim, and I don’t believe you have either.

It would make about as much sense as believing everyone who comments on HN.

jmyeet• 4 years ago

So what you see in the US political landscape is that there are people who, at least by global standards and even by domestic standards, have incredible privilege who love nothing more than to adopt an oppression aesthetic (eg the Great Replacement [1]).

We also have seen the stratospheric rise of narcisism.

I've wondered if this is a new phenomenon. If so, why now? If not, why was it seemingly less prevalent historically?

Things like "hyper-individualism as a virtue", a core tenet of many modern American cultures, raiise the question: is this because of narcisism or the cause of it? Culturally we seem to celebrate what are (literally) psychopathic behaviors (eg CEOs of large companies).

But here's another thought: maybe the attraction of a sense of oppression is closely related to the human need for a sense of purpose, to be part of something. Organized religion in the West is in decline but it usually provided this structure. It's scary for many to think that everything is just random and when you die, that's it. There's a certain comfort and structure in being part of soemthing, even if that something is (or is construed as) oppression.

I believe this is a strong motivator for the resilience of conspiracy theories.

As for weaponizing victimhood, here's a good rule to live by: from a narcissist, every accusation is a confession. It tends to work in reverse too, meaning if you find someone making really hpocritical and logically inconsistent statements or accusations, which they themselves don't abide by or are guilty of, it tends to be fairly strong evidence of narcissism.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement

trgn• 4 years ago

We also have seen the stratospheric rise of narcisism.
I've wondered if this is a new phenomenon

Christopher Lasch in the 70s has a very precise answer to your question. Narcissism is the inevitable defense mechanism to navigate a society in which all organization of civic and family life are increasingly bureaucratic, state-governed, and transactional, a defense mechanism in a society in which all models and ideals are mediated by imagery and advertisement.

In such a society, man cannot but end up with a personality that's hesitant to make close bonds of affection or develop personal loyalty. It is inevitable to nurture insecurities about one's own station in life or one's role in the power structure, about one's physical appearance. To thrive in such a society of impersonal bureaucracy and cult of youth, one almost has, by necessity, to be low key manipulative, congenial on the surface, effortless "cool", preoccupied with projection of identity and youthful vigor.

His are two important insights imho: His analysis precedes internet-era, the preconditions are more fundamental than just social media-fueled victim culture. Also, current epidemic of absorption is at its core a survival strategy for a bureaucratic, technisized world; we cannot expect any change unless the relations between labor, family, and state do not fundamentally become less bureaucratic.

PuppyTailWags4• 4 years ago

Before we go runaway with this, I think it's reasonable to also ask: how many people who are displaying victimhood are victims? Maybe people who desire to manipulate others may use victimhood to do so, but are they statistically significant in population to all victims?

BlargMcLarg3• 4 years ago

For what it's worth, these questions have been asked in the context of women/men and sexual conduct. The pendulum swung from "women are ridiculed for being victims" to "men can't be victims and women are always victims". Research is now coming out that a lot of male victims go unnoticed and quite a few women are misusing the status quo. Now the pendulum threatens to swing back to "women are ridiculed" again.

The question itself only matters if no method exists where the pendulum can be dampened more quickly. Given history, there is reason to believe such a method exists.

PuppyTailWags4• 4 years ago

Yes, in the context of sexual misconduct what is the percentage of victims who are actually victims? Like if narcissists lying about sexual misconduct is statistically a rounding error, that's really important to know.

noobermin• 4 years ago

The fact is a lot of people in this comment section will use articles like this to attack all victims which is pretty terrible. It's important to remember dark traid types are a sheer minority of people, so it is not at all likely for example your co-worker bringing up things to HR is a dark-triad person.

As usual, people should trust but verify. If some people are clamoring that today's "mob" doesn't give due process, the important thing is to actually give due process in deed, and not dismiss people's grievances out of hand.

scarmig• 4 years ago

Nonvictims who display victimhood are overrepresented in media, government, and the corporate world compared to actual victims, because (almost by definition) they don't face the same barriers of access that actual victims do.

PuppyTailWags4• 4 years ago

Do we have studies about this? I'm good-faith asking here.

Borrible• 4 years ago

Find your niche and exceed at it!

Predators, parasites, mimikry.

There must be some social-ecological equivalent.

Don't be envious, it's natural.

xkcd19634• 4 years ago

One does not need to call himself a scientist in order to arrive to these obvious observations

9wzYQbTYsAIc4• 4 years ago

The art of science could be described as making that which is elusive, obvious, and to doubt that which is obvious, as elusive.

xkcd19634• 4 years ago

It probably doesn't help that I believe that social science is not a science.

hjkl02• 4 years ago

The title sounded like a joke at first. But the term “dark personality” is explained inside:

New research provides evidence that narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism — maladaptive personality traits known as the “Dark Triad” — are associated with overt displays of virtue and victimhood

I feel like the title could also have been: “people with dark personalities suck”

onecommentman• 4 years ago

This discussion in the comments involves a lot of talk about “victimhood”, “narcissism”, “privilege”, etc. without a formal definition of these terms.

A lot of the heat in the discussion would disappear if a common definition of these terms were proposed and agreed to. Even more would disappear if those definitions were measurable in some objective sense. Otherwise I find discussions like this devolve into an unnecessary and unpleasant exercise in semantics and a waste of good photons. It seems like a generational malady.

As a side note, I find it is more rhetorically and psychologically powerful to simply describe a disadvantaged situation you (or someone else) are in, rather than adding “and I’m/they are a victim”. When you add the word “victim”, you leave yourself open to bickering about what a “victim” is and how you/they should respond as such, which is distracting from the main point of effectuating change.

Allowing the reader/listener themselves to complete the thought “wow, you/they really got screwed over” in their own mind takes advantage of their natural psychological need for closure. Since the reader/listener themselves will be making that closure, your/their disadvantaged situation will make a more powerful impact on them and the description would be more likely to lead to positive action.

If you are simply looking for an enabler to help feed your psychological need for being perceived as a victim, well, call yourself a “victim” all you want, and good luck in finding someone to complete that folie à deux.

random314• 4 years ago

I have never met anyone who doesn't think of themselves as a victim. I include myself. It is almost like a fundamental human trait. I think Dale Carnegies "7 habits" book should have made this concept well known.

FooBarBizBazz• 4 years ago

This seems related to David Graeber's idea that money was originally a moral instrument more associated with temples, than a purely secular phenomenon emerging from trade.

To have-been-wronged becomes a fact of accounting.

I think of --

-- sacrifices that people make. Mortifications of the flesh and so on. "Wrong yourself so the universe owes you something."

-- blood money paid in the Islamic and old Germanic worlds.

-- a brokerage account, with assets and liabilities.

-- how much of the New Testament is full of financial metaphors. The rich man accumulates his fortune on earth, but the righteous man accumulates his fortune in heaven.

But then I also think of

-- central bankers, who magic money into existence

-- Bitcoin, Ethereum, and the rest.

Which brings me back to the observation --

-- Bitcoin is structured like a cult, in which you make a sacrifice to join (exchanging money for it, or wasting electricity), after which you then have an incentive for membership in the tribe (ownership of Bitcoin) to confer benefits (i.e., for the price to appreciate faster than other assets).

You really want to be able to say "to hell with it" and escape the game. To stop accumulating karma and live perched up on a cliff face.

New study suggests people with dark personalities weaponize victimhood (2021)

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