CEO Shadow Program

https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/ceo/shadow/

by romanzubenko • 4 years ago

415 123 4 years ago

about.gitlab.com

hbcondo7142• 4 years ago

Looks like a great program that will yield insight, especially being able to travel with the CEO. Anyone aware of other companies doing this or something similar?

prteja11• 4 years ago

Amazon.

jason-phillips• 4 years ago

Anyone aware of other companies doing this or something similar?

Samsung Austin Semiconductor used to have an "eat lunch with the president" program where groups of four or five from each department would each lunch with the president at least once a year. Obviously nowhere near as immersive as this program, but still having the opportunity to ask several off-the-cuff questions like, "Why did Samsung choose Austin?" definitely added value for me.

georgyo• 4 years ago

I have been at several lunches with executives type events at different places. The groups are small so it makes more casual back and forth questions much easier, which is useful.

From my perspective, the real value of the lunches was strictly building rapport across the company. At some places high level employees (doesn't necessarily have to be management) often feel unapproachable and they feel more abstract concepts than people. Having lunch with them re-enforces they are also people, people you may even get along with.

Other companies I've been at only do Q&A sessions with large groups of employees, and this is still useful, but the format doesn't help the culture. The answers you get are often the company line, and you cannot dig deeper. The people answering the questions are still abstract identities that appear to tout that company line, with no real personality.

hackernewds3• 4 years ago

I know of a small-ish company where the exec was seeking to have lunch info sessions. But only with the women's group. It was shady to say the least

spaetzleesser2• 4 years ago

I habe been to several of similar lunches and every time it quickly turned into a long monologue by the executive.

swyx3• 4 years ago

andy jassy was famously a Bezos shadow before they landed on the idea for AWS (no idea how true this is just repeating what i heard)

chaboud• 4 years ago

We have TA's at Amazon for L12 (Jassy) and L11 (SVP).

However, being a TA also involves active advising and commenting first on document reviews (a lot of executive communication at Amazon is via written documents and review meetings that begin with a doc read). Many of our executives were former TA's.

ranman• 4 years ago

FWIW there's a lot of politics in this process. Existing talent in SEA is far more likely to get selected for these roles rather than offering global top talent a 2 year stint in SEA to see if it fits. The people that receive these TA positions are purposefully selected and groomed for future exec roles. The program does have a good track record of success but they made a few bad bets as well.

Cederfjard3• 4 years ago

Stupid question here, what does TA spell out?

nickhalfasleep• 4 years ago

I keep thinking for fiduciary responsibility, CEO's and executives should wear a chest mounted camera like police. For shareholder value.

theboonies• 4 years ago

This is the plot of the book “The Circle” but it was more expansive than just for CEOs

tibbar• 4 years ago

It’s surprising to me that a CEO can allow all of their meetings to be shadowed by a (relatively low-level) employee — surely there must be highly confidential information, performance feedback, sensitive legal matters, etc that can only be attended by specific executives?

sytse2• 4 years ago

It is about 80% of my meetings that they can join, some are no shadows.

And in quarter of the meetings they do join they are asked to leave towards the end so that there can be a short closed session.

We also have extra confidentiality restrictions for the shadows.

swyx3• 4 years ago

you are one of my heroes, but i just have to say i cannot imagine how you aren’t absolutely exhausted after having to be so transparent 24/7 for like a decade. i’m a pretty transparent guy, but having to have my meetings streamed on youtube and someone shadowing me 80% of the time seeing me at my worst, i can’t imagine. hats off but also i would like your secret to eternal youth, internal consistency and unlimited energy.

sheerun2• 4 years ago

I guess your life is over, legally speaking, after you take the position

leaflets26• 4 years ago

The shadow's legal life? I don't understand :-)

sheerun2• 4 years ago

George Orwell's 1984 vibes

Edit: So you're downvoting this comment? Some feedback? How is it not surveillance with extra steps?

throwthere• 4 years ago

I think you're missing what this program actually is in a big way, but it's hard to know where you're coming from exactly because that post is pretty terse--

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_shadow

noirbot• 4 years ago

Because the point of it decidedly isn't sinister? Having someone watching you and learning from you shouldn't be creepy, it should be exactly what people in a high-pressure job should be trying to foster.

Just because someone is watching you doesn't mean they're surveilling you. When I mentor coworkers by letting them watch me do a task, it's not chilling me or oppressing me.

People are downing you because you're making a rather absurd conflation between "they aren't working in total secrecy" and "now it's an oppressive police state"

marcinzm• 4 years ago

So you're downvoting this comment?

You made a snide comment without enough content in it to fuel a decent discussion. If you want a discussion then it's on you to initiate it properly.

ben_jones• 4 years ago

We talk about leading by example but this is actual leadership by example.

quartz• 4 years ago

The "What it's like" posts are really cool. Especially enjoyed this account[1] from a content writer who shadowed the CEO during a half-day meeting with a major investor and got to see the impact of their work in a context they never expected:

Next we met with Vinod, Bruce, and investment partners Brian Byun and Sven Strohband for a company brief and brainstorm session. Sid began with an update on the financials, and detailed our massive growth and expansion both in terms of people and product. There were no slides presented. Instead, Sid used our website as a visual aid. Nearly every question or discussion point was first addressed with a Google search to pull up the appropriate GitLab web page to reference.

[...]

I’ve been working at GitLab for two and a half years as a content writer on our marketing team and at times have been extremely frustrated with our marketing website—the content on it, how it’s organized, what we’re presenting, etc. It doesn’t look or operate in a way I’m familiar with so my instinct was to not trust it. But nothing we do at GitLab is “normal,” and witnessing our CEO use the website as a single source of public truth to inform our investors is just one example of what it means to be a transparent company.

[1] https://about.gitlab.com/blog/2019/04/08/khosla-ventures-git...

Swizec• 4 years ago

And if the CEO needed to use Google to find every page, maybe the navigation needs some work

reidjs• 4 years ago

Disagree, it makes sense for the nav on gitlab to be code/repo focused. It makes sense for these articles to be more easily found through Google IMO

germinalphrase• 4 years ago

I don’t think that necessarily follows.

gonzo41• 4 years ago

Be index-able should be a motto of every website on the net.

hackernewds3• 4 years ago

Hm not precisely. Users are not seeking to navigate to them sequentially. But they are seeking to find what they want, a morsel at a time.

aasasd3• 4 years ago

If you know what you want, text search is much faster than leafing through a list of items. It's what every touch-typist discovers in the first months with their newfound power, especially if they have decent software available—like Spotlight or Alfred.

spiddy• 4 years ago

From the investor's perspective starting from Google is a lot better, and I bet this was done deliberately. It provides him the insight he doesn't need the CEO to find the articles.

evansmidwa• 4 years ago

so true

jdmarble• 4 years ago

I was surprised by the volume of the handbook material that applies to the role of CEO shadow. To me it implied a high level of formality and expectation of rigid adherence. Then I found this:

CEO shadows label the handbook MRs they create with the ceo-shadow label. It's a point of competition between CEO shadows to try to best the previous shadows' number of merge requests.

I am no longer surprised by the length of this section of the handbook.

lbotos• 4 years ago

As a shadow, you would contribute anywhere, not just on the CEO Shadow process.

I see them often on slack updating various random pages:

https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/merge_request...

stonlyb• 4 years ago

CEO shadow as a service would be a great startup.

hackernewds3• 4 years ago

Who is the customer? Why would CEOs sign up? How to prevent abuse (glucose guardian seeking)?

jgalt212• 4 years ago

Pretty much how Jamie Dimon and Andy Jassy got their starts.

targetinglewood2• 4 years ago

Does gitlab have any hidden pages on the handbook? That is accessible to select few?

sytse2• 4 years ago

Yes, there is an internal handbook for things that can’t be public. Also see our confidentiality level classification https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/communication/confidential...

targetinglewood2• 4 years ago

This is awesome! I love the way you have done this. Plus amazingly transparent.

drc500free3• 4 years ago

I was fortunate enough to spend about 18 months as staff assistant to my CEO, including access to their email and basically all meetings. This was a PE-backed roll-up that was in the midst of acquiring several smaller companies, and then pursuing an exit.

The experience really opened my eyes about the requirements for the job. The amount of code-switching required to communicate well with ownership, the other C-levels, employees, customers, and potential acquirers could make my head swim. The breadth and depth of technical, financial, and human expertise necessary to verify all the parts of the business and smell out where issues might be hiding. All of that before even getting to (in this case) integrating several businesses into a whole, identifying up-and-coming leaders, and keeping the employees happy; let alone actually having a strategy, getting buy-in, and implementing it. And then spending most evenings networking with the elite class that you need to know to have access to capital. You can never have a bad day. Ever.

This was for an org that was comfortably under 1000 employees, all located in the US, where none of the VPs were the kind of political operators you get in meatier companies.

I walked away thinking that there can't be even 100k people in the country with the ability to do even a non-laughable job as the CEO of a 500ish employee company. Not even do a good job, just do a job that doesn't look like one of those 80s child-parent-bodyswap movies where the kid tries to work in an office.

I still think CEO pay is out of control, but I understand better why boards end up paying what they do. Any weakness in any of these skills is an existential threat, and you don't know for sure what will hit you this year.

Aperocky2• 4 years ago

weakness in any of these skills is an existential threat

Feigned/false strength might be much more disastrous.

I can think of a few household name companies whose CEO was widely lauded during the time, but might have fared better had a tree trunk was there instead.

jdkee• 4 years ago

Jack Welch comes to mind.

"The New York Times business columnist James B. Stewart wrote in 2017, “Hardly anyone considers Mr. Welch a management role model anymore, and the conglomerate model he championed at G.E. — that with strict discipline, you could successfully manage any business as long as your market share was first or second — has been thoroughly discredited, at least in the United States.”

The financial crisis of 2008 delivered a blow to G.E.’s fortunes. In the years before the crisis, the company had built sprawling lending operations that helped drive its growth. But the finance businesses became a crippling liability when, during the crisis, credit markets froze and borrowers struggled to pay back their loans.

G.E., like many large banks, tapped emergency government loans to help it get through the upheaval. In the years following the crisis, G.E. sold off most of its lending businesses, but other problems emerged, some of which were in its large power unit.

G.E.’s stock price now trades roughly 80 percent below the high it hit in 2000. The company has significantly lower revenue than it did that year. Last year, G.E. reported a loss of $5.4 billion."

See https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/business/jack-welch-died....

mbesto2• 4 years ago

Super interesting insight and generally agree with the gist of what you are saying.

Any weakness in any of these skills is an existential threat, and you don't know for sure what will hit you this year.

Hard disagree with this conclusion. I regularly work with businesses from 100~1000 employees and at a certain scale (number of employees might not be a great proxy), the engine of the company simply takes over - good or bad CEO.

There are great CEOs that can do ALL of the things you mention, but I've also sat in board meetings with some pretty terrible CEOs of $100M revenue businesses. To the point where I would seriously question how the company still was operating, but alas, it chugged along.

It's actually incredible to me how many businesses that do have poor leadership that continually survive. Once you've built a brand, a reputation, a network of clients and a somewhat steady book of business, it's surprisingly hard for most businesses to fail.

Note - tech companies on a VC track are a bit of an exception to this, but thats usually because they are spending more than they earn, so they literally strangle themselves. It's important to remember in the grand scheme the number of VC backed companies is greatly dwarfed by the number of businesses that exist.

remus• 4 years ago

It's actually incredible to me how many businesses that do have poor leadership that continually survive. Once you've built a brand, a reputation, a network of clients and a somewhat steady book of business, it's surprisingly hard for most businesses to fail.

I suspect this is the case when there are competent people at other levels in the org. It seems like the rest of the company is often aware when leadership is bad and each push back against poor decisions in their own little way to try and keep their parts of the business running smoothly.

aynsof• 4 years ago

I've had experiences of senior executives joining organisations and completely ruining them in 1-2 years.

One exec in particular:

- Made power grabs for other execs' areas, forcing those execs out to other organisations.

- Continually shifted goal posts for key technical staff. In the words of one of these people, this was the primary cause of their mental breakdown.

- Filled positions with his own cohort of sycophants and yes-men from previous organisations.

- Defunded major projects, turning them from promising potential businesses into graveyards.

After just a couple of years, the organisation was a shell of its former self.

ghaff4• 4 years ago

Certainly a well-established company can probably already tick along reasonably well with a so-so CEO who isn't actively bad in some way. After all, it's not like the wheels come off the bus if the CEO takes a vacation.

drc500free3• 4 years ago

I love this comment. It gets to a fundamental question of what the role is for, what the value is, and what investors think they are paying for when they hire one.

In my experience the CEO does three things uniquely that other roles don't:

1. They are the ultimate authority in tradeoffs between internal interests; 2. they are the interface between ownership and the company; and 3. they are the driver of strategic change.

When the whole company is aligned and rolling downhill with product-market fit around a single offering, those functions aren't as necessary. It just works. When you start branching out, you need a final referee that can determine the exchange rate between the desires of internal kingdoms.

But it's the second and third functions that IMO drive the executive compensation bubble. Our economy is kind of hourglass-shaped, with an economy of wealthy asset owners barely joined to an economy of consumers. The thing that is supposed to tie everything together is that the value of the assets owned in one of the bulbs is tied to DCFs of the money circulating in the other bulb. The CEO is at the narrow opening between the bulbs, mediating between the investors in the equity-class-relationships economy and the actual operating business in the actual-humans-buying-things economy.

There has always been a "strategic" layer that insists upon its own inevitability, the BCG/Bain mindset that says that things can't just run on autopilot and someone needs to be looking Towards The Future. For any given company there's going to be someone out there who has an investment thesis for how that company could make more money with some changes, using whatever that decade's version of the Cash Cows/Dogs/Stars matrix is.

What's different (IMO) is the massive amount of inflation we had only amongst the asset owners, that hasn't until recently been matched by inflation in consumer sectors. Valuations have gone up simply because there is so much money to invest, and investors have been given basically two options: keep your money in cash because equity is over-valued, or believe someone with a thesis of how a company with a NPV of $300M can actually be worth $1B with a few changes. The CEO's job is to prevent the uninflated DCF from fully decoupling from the inflated company valuation.

So we get all sorts of businesses that are doing fine for what they are, but not doing fine enough to justify their new valuation. At a macro level it's driven by QE2 and other Fed schemes, but for this one particular company it's an intriguing and reasonable idea. Now the investors put the CEO to work implementing the thesis that will will justify the valuation premium. I think that's the driver behind a lot of the exec comp and the flailing about.

jbellis• 4 years ago

Completely agree. I've had about as much visibility as possible into the job of tech startup CEO from zero to 500+ employees, across two successful CEO transitions, and it's a very, very demanding role. Very few people have the skill and the experience to do it successfully, and they can make or break the company.

(Corollary: I also have a ton of respect for technical people who become successful CEOs, like Jay Kreps, Peter Zaitsev, Aaron Skonnard. I have a high opinion of my own abilities and I don't think I could do it.)

refurb3• 4 years ago

Yup, I had a similar experience and what CEOs spend their time doing was vastly different than what I expected.

- Their calendar is often broken up into 15 minute meetings

- Lots of external meetings because a big part of the job is "being the face of the company"

- The 15 minute meetings are often just a final "sign off" on some important decision; CEO bring the company-level perspective and can highlight key issues identified by the board

- What a department might spend 3 months working on, the CEO often has to understand and make a decision on in 10 min (see prior HN post "how to communicate to executives")

- What people presenting to the CEO thought was important was often very different than what CEO thought was important (e.g. team thought product launch price was critical while CEO was worried about a $500M supplier contract that was in the final stages of negotiation and if this product launch could be leveraged to close the deal and save the company millions)

- The political side was very important; HN likes to think raw intellectual horsepower matters, but ability to communicate and "get people on your side" is at least 50% of a CEOs job; your idea might be brilliant but if you can't convince the sales team of it, your idea is worthless

calvinmorrison2• 4 years ago

but ability to communicate and "get people on your side" is at least 50% of a CEOs job;

It's gotta be 50% of every job. Heck, even on open source projects, you need to be lucid and explain what you are doing.

Look no further than for example, the ANTS project, which has done some very cool work in the plan9 space but hasn't always gotten a good reception due to the author being somewhere between Terry A. Davis and a normal programmer. And it's in the communication that's key.

bjacobt• 4 years ago

prior HN post "how to communicate to executives"

Can you share a link?

ghaff4• 4 years ago

A lot of individual contributors probably don't appreciate just how massively scheduled the days of CEOs and other senior executives are. Want an hour to work something in private? It's going to have to be on a calendar. Traveling? Your meals are probably be mostly scheduled with customers, etc.

Many CEOs are, of course, very well compensated. But, whether or not you think it's extraordinarily difficult, it's certainly very demanding in terms of time and schedule.

geysersam3• 4 years ago

I'm sure it's an incredibly difficult job. Interesting it's still such a common way to run organizations. Sounds like it'd be better, more scalable, cheaper, safer etc. to not depend on a single person with extremely unusual skills for the company to function.

ghaff4• 4 years ago

Even just co-CEO organizations have usually been a disaster. Companies can and do delegate decision-making--even to the point of having relatively autonomous divisions. This can work reasonably well. It can also mean that the CEO is mostly involved in financial engineering (GE, private equity much of the time) or you end with warring fiefdoms competing with each other (Ballmer-era Microsoft).

Large companies can accomplish things that smaller companies cannot but keeping the ship reasonably on course is a really hard organizational problem. When I was an analyst and spent a fair bit of time with senior execs at tech companies, I often saw how much fragmentation and lack of coordination there was among different groups. But my wonder wasn't that this existed but that the companies were able to function at all.

crazygringo• 4 years ago

Well, in a way you're simply describing the job of the C Suite minus the CEO -- the CFO, CTO, CSO, and so on.

But each of the C Suite members can't spend all their time staying up-to-date and coordinated on everything each other is doing, and they'll also often disagree.

So you need somebody to manage the C Suite, understand and integrate and make decisions... and that's the CEO.

At the end of the day, somebody has to be in charge, or else it's either a) anarchy or b) incredibly inefficient as too much time is taken up in NxN communication and lengthy group debating and decision-making.

And somebody who's capable of managing every C Suite member effectively, whose areas span the entire company... that's going to be an inherently fiendishly difficult and complex job.

calvinmorrison2• 4 years ago

but I understand better why boards end up paying what they do.

maybe simple supply and demand?

Mezzie• 4 years ago

Yes and no.

I think you're right about the number of people who could effectively do those things. I think you're missing a key skill that a CEO can have that can make them effective if they're lacking in one or two key areas if the company is big enough: delegation.

I'm a generalist and have some leadership skills (nothing like what would be needed to CEO a company of a thousand employees, but I could do a decent job with a dozen or two), and one of the first things I do in team situations is figure out who in the group is good at things I am weakest in and whether or not I can trust their judgement/work ethic/etc. For example, if I'm working on/helping to manage a tech project, it's probably not a good use of my time to do get into the technical weeds even though I can do so, because that is something that a good, trustworthy CTO can do for me, and it's easier to find someone with technical acumen whose judgement I trust than to find someone with communication acumen whose judgment I trust.

Team and bench-building is a key component to managing big companies well, particularly given part of reducing risk is reducing single points of failure, including making the company overly reliant on one person to function.

This is also why somebody's network/reputation is a big deal - it signals what 'bench' they might have available if you choose them as a leader.

So while it's very true few people can solo lead, there are a decent amount of people with ~80% of the skills needed and a network that can cover the 20%, so it's not completely dire.

mhb• 4 years ago

Competent Elites

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/CKpByWmsZ8WmpHtYa/competent-...

drc500free3• 4 years ago

Great read, and as usual EY is more pithy and eloquent than I can be.

zmmmmm• 4 years ago

I'm constantly in awe of Gitlab's radical transparency approach. I have no idea if this is actually a good idea (surely every competitor of Gitlab has a huge amount of assymetrical information about Gitlab that Gitlab does not have in return) - but I am fascinated by it and truly grateful for them for daring to go out on a limb and do this experiment. My fingers are crossed that this brings them amazing success as I wish all companies worked this way.

swyx3• 4 years ago

well, if you drown your competitors with more information per day than they can consume per day, do they really have any information :)

vasco2• 4 years ago

If you're sprinting in a race, the fact that the others can see how you run makes no difference. Most people worry too much about looking to the side, and if the others are looking at you, rather than with the running speed. Gitlab seems to be focused on running.

leaflets26• 4 years ago

Good point. Still, can matter some years later, when new runners have joined the races and are now using the best of your ideas plus some of their own that you don't know about?

perlgeek• 4 years ago

I've come across so many cases where information wasn't properly shared within a company (much because information was only disseminated on a need-to-know basis or some vague fear of leaking information), and that hurt the company in some way or another. Usually useless work done that needed rework, employee frustration, decisions not being made because of missing information.

I could well imagine that avoiding this one pitfall raises productivity enough to make up for any potential advantage that competitors have.

yalogin• 4 years ago

This is great! I would love to shadow the CEO like this and understand what they do and how they do it. However I fail to understand how this gives the CEO nay feedback about their own job as mentioned in the post.

leaflets26• 4 years ago

I interpreted that as the shadow and CEO spoke with each other sometimes, and the CEO asked for the shadow's thoughts (it would be odd if they didn't talk with each other?).

And a bit from the shadow updating the online docs, but maybe that's not for the CEO.

monkpit• 4 years ago

This is so cringey. Instructions on how/where/when to pet the cat.

Cederfjard3• 4 years ago

It’s a small part of the document. What’s wrong with a little levity? Not everything has to be super serious all the time, even for a corporation.

urthor3• 4 years ago

GitLab is a company I've always felt hasn't quite found product market fit.

However, its "open source internal practices" model is the gold plated standard for a 21st Business.

If you're any kind of manager of anything, do this.

See: http://blog.idonethis.com/managers-write/ for more.

rrdharan• 4 years ago

Wouldn’t we need to see it done, at a company that has found product market fit, before we can decide that it is clearly “the gold plated standard for a 21st (century) business”?

hbcondo7142• 4 years ago

As a recent publicly traded company, I would read their annual report[1] as Gitlab describes their product fit well, even stating their product "is available to any company, regardless of the size, scope, and complexity" and their CEO saying in their earnings release[1] they "are seeing continued strong momentum for customers adopting our DevOps platform, as revenue increased 69% year-over-year"

[1] https://last10k.com/sec-filings/gtlb

urthor3• 4 years ago

Oh, my view is given the size of the opportunity they are underachieving.

In terms of the actually forming a business product market fit, they definitely have.

However, they're seen as a cut price second supplier to GitHub Enterprise + Atlassian. Not an ideal situation.

In terms of "maybe we should become more user friendly instead of going all in on enterprise features," not so much. And that's important.

nextos• 4 years ago

However, its "open source internal practices" model is the gold plated standard for a 21st Business.

I hope some small national or regional government takes the lead and also adopts similar openness practices, whenever possible.

geysersam3• 4 years ago

Yes that would be fantastic.

lmeyerov2• 4 years ago

They are fast follow / undercutting by bundling ideas innovated by GitHub and CI/CD etc co's and boost marketing via OSS. Fuel rapid sprawling dev by offshoring and VC. It's a financial innovation, not tech. New tech may appear as a side-effect of ^^^^.

It's pretty darn cynical bc market fit is pre-established. Must be frustrating for folks coming from the technical innovation side of their market.

urthor3• 4 years ago

I feel like first mover advantage is more than enough reward for the conceiver of product market fit.

Ultimately, product market fit isn't lawfully protected intellectual property.

voydik• 4 years ago

Looks like this was from March 2021

m00n• 4 years ago

If you are interested in this kind of role, it is usually called Executive Assistant in the corporate world. Had the fortune to support my CEO and attend e.g. all board meetings (because I did the minutes). This is at a >10$ bn revenue established company. Very rewarding, but experience depends very much on the style of your boss.

basileafe2• 4 years ago

Couple of years ago the idea of CEO Shadowing was mentioned on Kernal. https://kern.al/idea/shadow-a-ceo-lessons-courses-programs

Since then no one picked it up, not sure why. But I'm interested and want to make a real living application for CEO and who want to be CEO Shadow. Is it worth it?

skatanski• 4 years ago

I’d recommend anyone who finds this interesting to give a listen to Matt Mullenweg’s Distributed podcast episode with gitlab’s CEO. An abridged version of various different initiatives, which make gitlab different: https://distributed.blog/2021/05/20/episode-27-leading-with-...

brainzap• 4 years ago

This makes me think of the book Working backwards, shadow of bezos

ThinkBeat2• 4 years ago

I think the reverse would be equally as informative if not more. (Which has been the subject of a tv show)

CEO shadows an employee all day. Get a feel for how the peons live.

Understand why it is so hard to get things done in the company.

TheRealPomax• 4 years ago

A CEO taking a day out of their schedule to shadow "an employee" makes for viewer counts on TV, but it can't give them any insight they can personally action on, and it can't give them the several different perspectives they need to properly action on without doing _lots_ of shadowing of various employees in various positions: so this is why there's a management and feedback structure. If there are things the CEO should learn, they should be able to rely on their executive team to bring that up.

If you're not a CEO, you can learn a lot from shadowing your CEO, without impacting the viability of your company. But if you're the CEO, all you can learn is "how something seems to work at a level you are not supposed to have control over." Unless your company has an incredibly flat org, without a board that the CEO is accountable to, and where the CEO is actually makes direct hiring, product, etc decisions, realistically having the CEO shadow employees means that they're not being the CEO. The larger the org, the more people they'd need to shadow to get meaningful insight, and the more the board will go "we need you to be the CEO of this multi-hundred-million dollar company, so if you want insights: you should already have a team in place for that."

ThinkBeat2• 4 years ago

It has been the case with most companies I have consulted with, as a management consultant that this is rarely the case.

The CEO and his favorite executives and VPs salesmen live inside their own little bubble with little real knowledge of the problems and challenges that the company is facing internally.

This is why I made good money.

It is easy to see this when management sends out decrees on how to improve performance or throughput .. etc that does not contain any mention of, nor solutions to the problems that is keeping the performance / throughput /(or whatever fitting metrics are for the company)

I might have a bias in that I have mostly worked with companies that hired us to help them. It is possible that the pool I have been exposed to is different than the majority but I do not think so.

I know of companies that are run in a more sane way but they are usually smaller, at least in number of employees and thus leadership is more aware of how things work.

sand500• 4 years ago

feedback structure

This is broken or non-existent at many companies.

jononomo• 4 years ago

My first impression of this idea is that it is fantastic, and maybe the US government should pass a regulation requiring this of all companies.

AtNightWeCode• 4 years ago

Gitlab sums up the problems with GIT and the culture around GIT. Do things as complicated as possible. Gitlab mainly solves all the problems it created.

I think this role is good though. We have similar staff that been included in all the things and they got up to speed fast.

basileafe2• 4 years ago

I really like this idea and want to see if it is possible to come t live as an online service where CEO finds the right CEO shadow.

Couple of years ago the idea of CEO Shadowing was mentioned on Kernal. https://kern.al/idea/shadow-a-ceo-lessons-courses-programs Since then no one picked it up, not sure why. But I'm interested and want to make a real living application for CEO and who want to be CEO Shadow.

Is it worth it?

CEO Shadow Program

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