Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/29/23048059/epic-games-google-bandcamp-play-store

by grmnygrmny2 • 4 years ago

103 124 4 years ago

ecf• 4 years ago

My cynical opinion is that it feels Tim Sweeney is purchasing companies in hopes he finds the “right” one that that causes enough public outrage to get his way in regards to App Store cuts.

valdiorn• 4 years ago

Good. It should cause outrage.

riversflow• 4 years ago

The only outrage I feel is that Tim Sweeney is using the compensation of starving artists, the main demographic on Bandcamp as I understand it, to try and make himself and EPIC richer or more relatively powerful. I don't give two hoots about "breaking up the App Store Model" and I doubt many/most musicians do either. I personally feel that 30% isn't even outrageous considering the value proposition.

Relatively rich/privileged software developers making their problem (App Stores wanting a 30% cut) the musicians' problem isn't noble, it's evil.

Edit: The way I see it, Tim Sweeney/EPIC is responsible for breaking the status quo that allowed bandcamp’s niche to operate the way they did, which seems a reasonable assumption. That acquisition turned the userbase into a pawn in the App store battle.

passivate• 4 years ago

So far he has lost a ton of cash on lawyer fees, M&A costs, etc. And EPIC now has to individually manage the acquired companies, make sure they're not competing against each other in the same market, etc, etc. I don't think this type of "spending current money to save future money" works. I don't care which company is doing it, but someone needs to break the App Store toll-booth.

Apple/Google/Anyone else trying to limit general purpose computing on mobile/PC platforms is a terrible thing for computing, but thats just my view. The ideal situation is we have a default app store - where the system integrator enforces all their policies, but then a user can voluntarily choose to download a separate app store where that store is run by different less exploitative policies. To make it easy for users, you can have an central store-front which then re-directs users to the different store pages. No different than a "Nike store" on Amazon.

fabianhjr• 4 years ago

At least in Android it is already the case, I have installed both F-Droid and Huawei's AppGallery in an otherwise stock android. (And prefer to get as much as possible from F-Droid)

Apple on the other hand has a war against "evil" sideloading. :P

echelon• 4 years ago

And EPIC now has to individually manage the acquired companies, make sure they're not competing against each other

Tim Sweeney is buying creator marketplaces. The Github in each market: 3D (sketchup/artstation), 2D (artstation), music (bandcamp), etc. It's the Microsoft play, but for creatives.

He's trying to leapfrog the gaming industry and build a content creation engine that encompasses Hollywood, marketing, architecture, automotive, you name it. He's actively cultivating skilled creator mindshare and winning.

He's also trying to set legal precedent that siloed distribution marketplaces can't charge an arm and a leg and enforce draconian rules, because his play is a two sided multi-channel marketplace where he wins regardless of where you buy or sell.

The endgame for Tim is huge if it works.

mkhpalm• 4 years ago

At this point I feel its fairly obvious that only real solution is a completely new mobile OS.

antihero• 4 years ago

I think it is pretty outrageous to spend a grand on a phone and then be told that I’m not allowed to put what I want on it or spend money supporting artists or publishers without a middle man. It’s absolutely insane and I’m not sure why it isn’t subject to a huge antitrust investigation. And this is coming from someone that likes Apple!

tpmoney• 4 years ago

Except this is about Google, and about Android, where you can put what you want and spend money without that middle man. You just need to side load, or install some other app store.

robonerd2• 4 years ago

Bless him for it.

MikusR• 4 years ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31203907

warning26• 4 years ago

While I generally agree with Epic's positions, it seems like a bit of a stretch here, considering that Android allows both sideloading and alternative app stores.

Unlike on iOS, there's nothing on Android stopping Bandcamp from releasing a standalone sideloadable app with any payment system they desire.

Tagbert• 4 years ago

Though the install rate would drop considerably. Most users are not comfortable with sideloading.

kevin_thibedeau• 4 years ago

Google ensures that they are they are frightened away with scary warnings.

1048576• 4 years ago

I'd guess most users don't know what sideloading is.

jollybean2• 4 years ago

I doubt that.

I don't think users really even care.

'Download Here' and it's good to go.

I don't think people think that much about 'viruses' in their mobile.

Some do of course.

PeterisP• 4 years ago

Antitrust rules apply for abuse of dominant market power (which Google certainly has) even if theoretical alternatives exist. It does not matter that it's not literally a monopoly, as that is not the legal bar that needs to be passed for Google to be limited in what they can and can't do.

bko2• 4 years ago

Bandcamp is using their own billing system, bypassing Google's cut. Every app could do this and cut Google out all together. An app could just let you download the app, pay some amount when you're in the app which would unlock the functionality. I don't think its unreasonable for Google to have a problem with this. They want to get the reach of the app store, and make money off it, without paying a cut to the host like everyone else. What am I missing here?

gigatexal• 4 years ago

But it does matter what the law says. If they’re not a monopoly in the eyes of the law what can a judge do?

RC_ITR3• 4 years ago

which Google certainly has

You’re conflating some ideas here. A marketplace owner always has “dominant market power” over the market they own. That’s the nature of marketplace, the owner gets to set certain rules like the types of payments accepted at the marketplace, because that is literally the job of a marketplace.

Google also has dominant market share, since their App Store is the best for android, but that’s legal (keep in mind Amazon, another $1tn company actively competes in this space) - the government does not want to force consumers to use worse app stores. Competition for the sake of competition is not pro consumer.

What Google probably isn’t doing (and what is illegal) is using its OS market power to crowd out other app marketplaces. As mentioned above Amazon meaningfully competes in this space. The closes you could get there is Google doesn’t publish its own apps to other app marketplaces, but that’s likely not across the bar of anti-competition.

ChrisLomont• 4 years ago

Antitrust rules apply for abuse of dominant market power (which Google certainly has)

Antitrust rules apply to monopolies, and Google has no where near monopoly over app stores or phones, the relevant systems here.

cma2• 4 years ago

At least in the past Android wouldn't allow security updates without having the user take a bunch of steps each time. Users couldn't just add a trusted authority permanently. Google also allegedly colluded with phone maker storefronts to keep them from working out deals with Epic.

Mk2000• 4 years ago

But those "alternatives app stores" can never do the things Play Store can, like automatic installing/updating apps without user needing to click "Install" for each one. (which gets quite annoying)

Google could've made it possible but did not, that's monopoly.

akvadrako• 4 years ago

They can with new versions of Android:

https://www.xda-developers.com/android-12-alternative-app-st...

GeekyBear2• 4 years ago

Unlike on iOS, there's nothing on Android stopping Bandcamp from releasing a standalone sideloadable app with any payment system they desire.

On iOS, just as on Android, there is nothing stopping you from handling purchases and payments through your own website and having your app only handle content consumption as companies like Netflix and Spotify have done on iOS for years.

hamburglar3• 4 years ago

If there is a path to sideload an app without google scaring the pants off users, then I agree. Making apps from the play store sound safe and apps from a 3rd party store sound scary and dangerous is abusing your position, however.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

Side-loading was covered in previous filings: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/22/22583467/epic-fortnite-go...

realusername2• 4 years ago

Sideloading is crippled behind warnings, that's never been a viable option.

Maybe Google should put the playstore behind a developer option flag in the menu with a warning that it's unsafe and see themselves if it'll work.

kotaKat• 4 years ago

So... Sweeney wasn't happy with 30%, and now he's not happy with a sweetheart 10% deal?

Pull the app and pull a Fortnite at this point and make people sideload it. I'm too tired of watching this fight over and over again, especially now that they're in the position of actually having a special deal that was given to them (even if it was pre-Epic).

spywaregorilla6• 4 years ago

He's not ok with sweet heart deals conceptually. Because they're bullshit

CharlesW2• 4 years ago

Then I have good news, in that this isn't some special "sweetheart deal". 10% is the standard rev share for music streaming apps that participate in Google's "Play Media Experience Program".

unethical_ban2• 4 years ago

I didn't think about it this way before, but it really looks like Epic might have bought out Bandcamp just to make this strategic legal play.

Some (niche reddit subs) think Musk bought out Twitter just to shit on the short sellers of TWTR that overlap with targeting Tesla, and "just because he could".

unethical_ban2• 4 years ago

Also - I think Android is still a superior OS for Bandcamp users, since iOS doesn't allow local loading of music through the app. Nevertheless, I downloaded all my purchases and put them on my Android FS.

thisarticle2• 4 years ago

More and more it looks like Epic just wants access to these major platforms and wants other companies and developers to pay for it.

belltaco2• 4 years ago

Is that what happens when a Windows program is not put on Windows Store? Thieves!

thisarticle2• 4 years ago

They’re free to distribute an APK like everyone else.

parkingrift4• 4 years ago

I’ll side with Epic when they agree to let me sideload skins in Fortnite. Open your platform, Epic!

spywaregorilla6• 4 years ago

Fortnite skins are a store, not a marketplace. There's a big difference.

parkingrift4• 4 years ago

While this is an absolutely true statement that distinction is an active choice by Fortnite to monopolize their platform.

stale20023• 4 years ago

The difference, of course, being that Google controls ~50 percent of the smartphone OS markets whereas Epic does not control anywhere close to half of the video game market.

Yes, if epic controlled 1 of only two serious video games in the entire world, then yes anti trust law should apply to them.

But that is clearly not the case, whereas Google and Apple clearly are much closer to being anti-competitive.

rchaud• 4 years ago

“However, Google is now modifying its rules to require Bandcamp (and other apps like it) to exclusively use Google Play Billing for payments for digital goods and services, and pay a revenue share to Google,” [Bandcamp CEO Ethan] Diamond says.

A great example of two polar opposite worlds:

- Bandcamp: lets artists set their prices, lets consumers purchase lossless DRM-free files. Mobile site works fine without Google. No uninvited algorithmic feeds ruining your personally curated collection.

- Google: entire business relies on the open web, yet the mobile platform follows a sharecropping model from the 1800s, the video platform pays creators fractions of a penny per view, and everything is nailed down with DRM.

mattkevan• 4 years ago

Feels like Epic bought Bandcamp just to use them as a pawn in their crusade.

Hoping nothing bad happens to it as it’s one of my favourite places on the Web.

SethMurphy• 4 years ago

So why can I make an Amazon purchase, using Amazon pay, through their android app installed through the Play Store. Is Google getting a cut there? Bandcamp must really be a threat to Google.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

I find it fascinating that the base assumption here is that it’s all a level playing field, rules are evenly enforced and it’s up to each developper to pull themselves from their bootstraps to make it work.

I have of course no idea how Amazon does their deals (just anyone outside Amazon I guess).

sentientslug• 4 years ago

I guess this is how I find out that Bandcamp was acquired by Epic...

smokey_circles• 4 years ago

I'm torn on this one.

I agreed with epic when they made this argument with Apple but that's because the App Store was the only way around.

Epic could just distribute an APK they build themselves. They just can't use the play store. Simple link on a website. Or the app. Doesn't the desktop launcher auto update?

Android is a lot more open so it's just weird to cry foul here but I also understand it does have an effect on their visibility.

Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

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