Ask HN: Do you feel bad for having a good job?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30998586

by paulwooden • 4 years ago

34 44 4 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

When I interact with people who have demanding jobs that give them little pay or respect, I feel bad because I'm younger than they are, but I make much more money doing much more comfortable work.

You might say I "deserve" my current place in life. Nothing has been handed to me, and I'm unusually smart and hard working. But I believe that I was born smart, and I've always had a compulsion to work hard.

I feel uncomfortable interacting with people of lower social classes. I don't care what they think about me. I just feel bad that they might lack respect or comfort in their work, or that their general life position may be unpleasant.

I give rather large tips, but it doesn't make me feel better. I usually tell myself that they probably greatly appreciate the jobs that they have and are using it as a stepping stone to achieve their dreams - that makes me feel better. I've also decided to stop avoiding discomfort/pain in my life, which makes me feel better.

Do you experience this? How do you deal with it?

shahbaby• 4 years ago

No need to feel sorry for them.

Unless you have financial independence, you're in the same class as them.

muzani• 4 years ago

This feels like lacking empathy. Many people are forced to work much longer hours. Some are working in dehumanizing conditions; worried that getting pregnant might lead to starvation or homelessness. Some do dangerous jobs for much less pay. I've never been shot at. I've never had to worry about being killed by an industrial machine. Some of my relatives have had to bribe people to cover up deaths.

I'm not sure what class really means here, but I'm happier where I am, and I try to help people out of their situation where possible.

samh748• 4 years ago

I am not someone with a high-paying job, so I don't have a direct answer to your question, but I do want to give you a big hug for being such an empathetic human being.

Empathy and emotional intelligence are very important skills and you will probably benefit greatly from growing them into strengths. By developing these areas, you'll probably experience less guilt in general, but more importantly, you'll become a real gift to the world in ways you wouldn't have imagined. :)

rektide• 4 years ago

It is so sad how inaccessible the better parts of the world are. I feel so sad that so few have access to anything genuine. The opportunities dwindle & I feel terrible for that- I want an electrified humanity, with vast potential everywhere. With few exceptions it feels like this world is falling so far away from empowered stances, and it's so sad, and so little of tech tries to rectify & enhance humanity's greater potential.

Reciprocally- and this isnt necessarily better- I look at how squandered this interesting field is. It's so fortunate & gifted a field, to have exposure to so much, to be so uniquely empowered & entrusted. Yet I see so much partial pursuit, so much partial interest, so much moderated enthusiasm. The really good people in this field have so little support, so few who can help them or who work at their level. I don't begrudge anyone their existence here but to see the tip of the spear, the vanguard of humanity so dulled & un-trying is sad. I see such limited futures everywhere, but to see such limited uniterested unengauged potential so close to a heart of power & potential is truly dismaying. Who if not the techies can inspire us, reawaken our potentail? I feel as uncomfortable with my professional class as I do with anyone else: they at least have potential. And yet that just makes me feel further apart from them than the every-person, who has such limited chances to find an enabling empowering path.

j7ake• 4 years ago

One can always donate your salaries to those less fortunate than you.

schmookeeg• 4 years ago

I have an excellent job and have since I was a teenager.

I use my financial means to pretend to have a terrible job. I steal time from my employer to sneak off and play mechanic on my various mechanical toys. When I do a bad job, I hire a real mechanic to come behind me and fix my mistakes. Then I get a little better. I enjoy learning, and when I can, teaching.

But I take issue with one part of your post:

Don't assume the people you interact with are in a lower class. Some of the people you describe are happier than I ever could be, and lead richer lives too. I'd argue that all you have is freedom from financial stress and not much else. I'd put them in a higher class, from what I see here.

Maybe go learn what their secret is. I doubt they'd trade for yours.

$0.02.

zaidw• 4 years ago

With that thinking, there’s a lot to feel bad for. People with demanding jobs, people who are sick, people in countries with no freedom, people with death of loved ones, people who give life pursuing dreams and failed, lonely people, people with disabilities, people experiencing war / natural disasters / pollutions.

I think as human we should aim to contribute to betterment of the world. Empathy is good, but feeling bad for isn’t at grand scale. You can feel bad for your friend’s misfortune I suppose.

beardyw• 4 years ago

Everyone is your equal. Tip what you like but treat everyone with respect. Being English of an older generation I cannot ask for something without saying please and thank you. I find it appalling when people don't. Every person you deal with deserves your care and attention.

Quietly giving and working for good causes is important. Also, if you are not evading taxation, regard your taxes as a blessing on others too.

drakonka• 4 years ago

I feel very privileged and sometimes out of touch, but I don't think people outside of tech are in a "lower social class" than me. The difference between us isn't that great in the end, and there are _many_ people who earn less than me but lead richer lives. One great thing is that where I live, it's generally expected that a job will pay a living wage, and healthcare is free. People working in retail or food service are able to lead comfortable lives, take vacations, have job security, etc.

One way in which I feel out of touch is the ability to buy something on a whim. I want that new robot vacuum cleaner? I'll just get it. I want a pet stroller for my cats to travel with me? I'll order the best fricking pet stroller I can find. I have a number I try to stick to each month of a maximum spending amount, but in the end there's always the knowledge that I can probably just buy that thing I want sooner rather than later. I feel very lucky, but also a bit disconnected from the realities of budgeting.

Having said that, my cat has almost gone through her yearly pet insurance allowance, so I'm now meeting the reality of putting extra money aside for vet bills just in case her health continues to be unstable for the rest of the year. Luckily I have an emergency fund for several months of living expenses, but the vet costs here might burn through even that.

UncleEntity• 4 years ago

I feel bad because I have a crappy job, mostly because they keep me really busy because of the “supply chain crisis” and I can’t slack off as much as I want.

georgia_peach• 4 years ago

Grew up poor, went to a rough school, feel zero guilt over my position as a well-paid tech prostitute.

Specialization just means knowing more and more about less and less. Rather than pitying the normies, try learning something from them instead.

nickmyersdt• 4 years ago

I only feel bad that life is a lottery and our global and local economies are rigged to improve the lives of winners whilst grinding the life out of losers.

jwilber• 4 years ago

“I feel uncomfortable interacting with people of lower social classes.”

Jeez.

I’m very fortunate to have grown up with lifelong hobbies (surfing, skateboarding) filled with people who are about as far from the typical high-paid tech worker as possible.

Thanks for the reminder.

BrS96bVxXBLzf5B• 4 years ago

All the time. I don't have an outrageous salary (£40k/yr) but I have such an easy-going schedule and light workload. If I need to do a life errand I don't have to plan and can go out and do it. If I didn't sleep well and need a nap I can take Slack notifications off mute (so they wake me up) and rest. If some complex work comes up it can be taken at its own pace. My boss and coworkers are all the loveliest people.

When I feel guilty it's because I feel like I'm 'cheating' life, like I shouldn't be able to take an hour long walk in the middle of a random day if the sun is shining - but really I feel it's something _everyone_ in a non-critical remote role should be able to do without question or worry.

Do you experience this? How do you deal with it?

I do the only thing I can do (I think) whilst being in an internal leadership position but not an employer: continue to emphasise within the company that everyone should work without stress, be visibly lax, and outside of the company make sure to communicate that this style of working is possible and acceptable and it should be a societal goal for everyone to have this option.

paskozdilar• 4 years ago

I definitely feel like this a lot, especially living in a country with low living standards.

But you are not responsible for the well-being of the people, the government is, and they are failing to do their job. Unless you wanna do something about it, there's no point in feeling bad about it. You've been dealt a good hand - there is absolutely no reason to be ashamed of that.

user_named• 4 years ago

It is very possible that people who get paid less than you have a better job than you do. They just get paid less.

throwmenow_0140• 4 years ago

I feel bad because I'm younger than they are, but [I enjoy privileges]

The world is not fair. You are not responsible for the way the world currently is, but you have a responsibility as a citizen of the world to work on lessening the inequality and pain.

It’s good that you feel bad, but the next step is to use this feeling effectively and act on it by volunteering, working in politics and working in businesses that have a positive impact on society.

You might say I "deserve" my current place in life.

No, you don’t deserve it. Nobody deserves their current place in life, some just got luckier with their genetics and circumstances. Believing in a just world is useful for society and the individual („they’ve earned it“), but it’s not true (truth is more „they got lucky they weren’t hit by a truck when they were 7 years old“).

I can, however, respect your effort and that you work hard. Doesn't mean that somebody else who can't work like that is deserving of a lesser place.

I feel uncomfortable interacting with people of lower social classes.

Spend more time with different people from different backgrounds. This sentence is the result of being alienated from your fellow human beings and honestly sad to hear. Realize that we’re all the same.

I give rather large tips, but it doesn't make me feel better.

You try to minimize your bad feelings with small gestures and you know it. That's why it doesn't make you feel better. To truly feel better, you need to involve yourself in making the world a better, more equal place for all human beings.

I usually tell myself that they probably greatly appreciate the jobs that they have and are using it as a stepping stone to achieve their dreams

Stop telling lies to yourself. Many people are stuck in soul-sucking jobs and are imprisoned by their responsibilities to their families. The US is unkind because the system makes you feel responsible and seems to judge you for the outcome of your life while your life has a lot of randomness and luck in it. It needs to change. - https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/21/17687402/ky...

devilbunny• 4 years ago

Spend more time with different people from different backgrounds. This sentence is the result of being alienated from your fellow human beings and honestly sad to hear. Realize that we’re all the same.

This is a very kind, very real statement right up until the moment that people realize that I can spend far more than they can. At which point I frequently become, in their opinion, either an asshole or a mark. I don't think I'm better than the guy who regularly waits my table at a favorite local restaurant - in fact, he works at least as hard as I do, has a great personality, and is always pleasant with us, and he gets GREAT tips (and not just from me). But I've seen a lot of people try to fuck me over just because I have more than they do. Not like a 20% markup. Try 200%. And labor on top.

Lucky for me, I've cultivated good relationships with solidly blue-collar folks over the years. I could tell them that I wanted XYZ done, and I wasn't particular as long as it happened in the next few years. So when their business went slack, and they needed the money, they had a job for more or less as long as they needed to pay the bills. I get a little price break, they get a steady income. And when I need to pay them, I'm happy to do it in cash. Maybe they report it, maybe they don't, not my concern but the one great thing about cash is that you never have to worry if my check will clear (yes, this is a very US-centric problem).

FWKevents2• 4 years ago

I wish I could give your answer 10 upvotes instead of just one.

codingdave• 4 years ago

It sounds like you have created a distance between yourself and people who make less money. You think your being smarter makes you different. You experience discomfort when dealing with "them" as if they are not people just like yourself, and talk about "different social classes" as if that is anything more than a social construct.

Honestly, step one is to stop segregating people in your mind, and just look at them as people just like yourself. Then you could actually get to know them and find out if their work makes them happy, whether it is just a job or something they are passionate about. You likely will find people who are satisfied with life at almost all wealth levels, just like you find people who are miserable at all wealth levels.

I'd recommend that you step back from your desire to avoid all discomfort, and instead step out of your comfort zone, explore the diversity this world has to offer, and get to know more people.

Tabular-Iceberg2• 4 years ago

Is this a GPT-3 generated post? It reads like an answer to a completely different different question that just happens to hit the same keywords (e.g. "pay", "smart", "comfort", "social class"...)

nameisname• 4 years ago

I think it's real and it makes sense. Look at the post. It reads borderline iamverysmart. He says people who work way harder making making less money but clearly has something going on with his own brain to assume that. I know someone whose worked hard their entire life and they run a small CNC shop. They're a multi millionaire. I know people who are software developers who bust their ass 12-16 hours a day for half of my own salary at the same company. The OPs issue is 100% their own issue and they have to work through it. Superiority complex is strong.

rramadass• 4 years ago

You SHOULD feel bad.

That shows that you have empathy for the less privileged folks.

A note first; you don't deserve anything, the World is not fair and much of what we achieve is blind luck (read Nassim Taleb) and then us muddling through to a possible local maximum.

The way to deal with it is to be thankful to providence and help your less privileged brethren. Have a keen sense of History and a desire to right the wrongs of the past much of which may have contributed to your success. Strive for a just equitable Society where everybody gets a fair shot at a chance to make it.

__s• 4 years ago

I worked in flooring one summer. Everyone there thought it was wrong for me to be there; they knew I should be somewhere else programming. We got along. They were happy for me when I eventually got back to where I belong

Sometimes I've heard people remark that tech salaries are ridiculous. But it's not like me taking a smaller cut is going to help them out: that margin would get sucked up by some corporate offshore account

vegai_3• 4 years ago

Having been bullied by some parts of the lower social classes half of my child life makes it all so much easier to handle. Having the lower social classes use their democratic rights to screw things up also helps. In contrast, the higher classes I've met in my life have typically been, well, classy. Some of them might have acted against me, but not in a tormenting and barbaric way.

Another viewpoint is that even if you could say that I don't deserve my currently pretty good place in life, neither would I really deserve a worse part either. Nobody would be doing better if I was doing worse.

lazyeye4• 4 years ago

"Having the lower social classes use their democratic rights to screw things up.."

Screw things up for who? Maybe they deserve it...

vegai_3• 4 years ago

For everyone. Yes, maybe we deserve it.

shapefrog• 4 years ago

I do pity you and I too would feel uncomfortable interacting with someone lower down such as yourself. Knowing that you have a shittier life than me would just make being in your presence a burdeon that would drag me down.

No doubt you still have to fly commercial or even worse rent your time on a private jet, not to mention going to a job (cant you find a better way, pull yourselves up by your bootstraps??!) Urgh, the thought of such an existence is actually too uncomfortable for me to imagine, it must be unplesant beyond my grasp.

I hope you can leverage your unusually great intellect and worth ethic into something with more success, and perhaps you too can achieve some happiness.

strikelaserclaw• 4 years ago

Life is unfair and there is nothing we can do about it.

toomuchtodo• 4 years ago

Half true. You can improve the situation within your sphere of influence, and if you so choose, grow that sphere based on time and resources.

Life is unfair though, no doubt about that. Find joy in making it less unfair when you can, we're only here for a blink of existence.

anamax• 4 years ago

I don't care what they think about me.

Fair enough.

I just feel bad that they might lack respect

Might? You certainly don't respect them.

giantg2• 4 years ago

I hate my job and am not that well paid. I have also worked jobs like warehouse worker, janitor, retail, etc. So I've been there and it wasn't that bad.

I have slightly considered quitting and working in a warehouse. They are advertising $25-30/hr jobs plus overtime. At least I wouldn't have to deal with the bullshit at my current job. Unfortunately, I can't really do that since I have a family.

bick_nyers• 4 years ago

I grew up poor, now I'm 26 and making 6 figures. Yes, being smart and working hard is part of the success story, but it's not the whole picture.

The reality of the situation, is that I got lucky at a young age with math and logic skills, got lucky to have some decent teachers who helped me develop those skills, then got lucky to adopt video games and computers as my main interest. I was lucky that software engineering just so happens to be a lucrative job. Everything else that has happened since I was a child has been an extension of that foundation.

Most people's success trajectories are not largely defined in their 20s, it just feels that way because that's the point in which you start really having agency and independence. Your 20s don't really determine if you are going to be successful or not, but rather how successful are you going to be.

Pitfalls exist, you can definitely be on the right track until the age of 22 and then screw up so badly that you never recover, it happens.

You got lucky, now go help other people get lucky, because the system isn't robust enough to perfectly equate success with hard work and/or intelligence. You got lucky, and that's ok, but there's no reason to look down on people, even if it seems that they are the ones screwing up their own life. You may have more wisdom than them that brought you to your current situation, but the idea is that you got to your level of wisdom through a series of lesser and lesser wisdoms at earlier and earlier points in time. You are not living the same life as that person, so you can't expect that person to do a full 180 overnight. Success takes a long time, you just didn't realize it at the time.

krnlpnc• 4 years ago

It’s important to find things in common with people on a human level. Hobbies or other special interests are good for this.

My advice is to simply not think about work outside of work and build friendships from other common interests.

Also, social class comparisons aren't helpful. A mechanic is smart, and in their eyes a person who can’t change their own oil isn’t.

kelseyfrog• 4 years ago

I feel bad because I'm younger than they are, but I make much more money doing much more comfortable work.

It feels like this is the start of understanding where this is coming from. If you wish, we could do a 5 Whys[1] session.

So, why do you feel bad about being younger, but making more money doing more comfortable work?

1. https://buffer.com/resources/5-whys-process/

lazyeye4• 4 years ago

Just be very woke to compensate.

It costs you nothing as all you have to do is express an opinion. And it allows you to feel morally superior (in your own mind) to all those poor people around you.

Its an excellent zero-effort, cost-free way to erase that guilt.

tomcam• 4 years ago

I feel uncomfortable interacting with people of lower social classes. I don't care what they think about me. I just feel bad that they might lack respect or comfort in their work, or that their general life position may be unpleasant.

Just so you know, starting at say $80K for family income there's no difference in happiness between the lowest and highest ends of the income scale. Do you think Will Smith is happier than you?

Also watch any of Mike Rowe's shows, namely "Dirty Jobs", and tell me that these people are less happy with their jobs than you.

FWKevents2• 4 years ago

Thank you for your honest question. The short answer is yes. The more complicated answer is I know I'm doing small things to ameliorate inequalities in my corner of the world, so I feel I'm doing something in a world where injustice will, unfortunately, probably always exist.

An example: I used Google's "black owned business" feature to hire an African-American handyman from another part of the city. I gave him the time and money he needed to figure out how to re-do my bathroom, even though it was the first time he'd done such a complicated renovation. He was slow, and made some mistakes. My patience and ability to see past the mistakes will help him move from handyman to contractor.

I used to be among the class of people who work hard for little pay before I opened my own business. I always maintained my dignity. By not falling into self-pity or complaining, and working with others in politics and the community to right injustices, (when I could find the time-- being poor is time-consuming) I felt empowered despite my low station in life at that time. So the poor can be noble at heart, and that can sustain through the many indignities of their condition.

This is not meant to let the well-to-do off the hook. For years I had a business that catered exclusively to the wealthy. It was common for me to have clients with an insular self-centeredness and entitled attitude.

Since you recognize inequality and injustice, you are already way ahead of the wealthy people I dealt with regularly. It may make you feel better to take action on those feelings in small ways or large ways, such as through volunteer work with refugees or the poor.

Guest19023892• 4 years ago

I was watching the news last night and they interviewed an older woman who left her high paying finance career to work as a florist. It's far less pay, and she finds her life much more rewarding and happy now.

Based on your post, you would look down at her florist job and think it's unfortunate she never achieved her dream in life. Meanwhile, she realized her dream, and she left her high paying comfortable career to achieve it.

In short, stop making assumptions that other people have the same dream as you or want to be in your position. Not everyone thinks a comfortable job is the definition of success or happiness in life. You know nothing about these people, their families, their friends, their hobbies, or their goals. It's really rude to assume they need your large tips or that they have a less fulfilling life. You'd probably be surprised how many of these people have no interest in trading places with you.

Ask HN: Do you feel bad for having a good job?

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