Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

https://www.reuters.com/technology/germany-doesnt-rule-out-closing-telegram-interior-minister-2022-01-12/

by dsnr • 5 years ago

86 162 5 years ago

kkjjkgjjgg2• 5 years ago

Maybe they could license the Great Firewall from China, they have many years of experience with that kind of thing.

While they are at it, they could look into other fancy tech from China, for example video surveillance that checks if people conform to Corona rules.

After all, why not - China seems to be so successful, what could go wrong?

mantas2• 5 years ago

Nothing goes wrong in China, comrade.

emteycz4• 5 years ago

They are already working on making EU do that.

bpmayer2• 5 years ago

Great idea!

mantas2• 5 years ago

Send dissent back to kitchens.

uniqueuid4• 5 years ago

This will be interesting.

Some background for the discussion:

- Germany has a different take on freedom of speech from the US. There are things that you cannot say (holocaust denial, inciting racial violence). We can argue about this, but it's deeply ingrained in the legal system and unrealistic to change

- Germany has a special law regulating responsibilities and content moderation in social media (NetzDG, think section 230 but wider). This law - among other things - mandates content moderation and cooperation with law enforcement

- A key point in the debate surrounding Telegram is the question of whether or not it is a "platform", that is an open social network. Telegram argues that it's a messenger, but in practice, there are many open and public groups used for public debates. So Germany argues that it should be regulated in accordance with the NetzDG, which Telegram denies.

- Recently, there have been a number of death threats and criminal conspiracies which were orchestrated via Telegram; on top, a huge chunk of covid deniers and co are active in this space.

- Telegram so far has not cooperated at all (in contrast with other social platforms, even TikTok).

So in essence, this is currently a battle about the German government saying: Look here, you got a bunch of criminals and terrorists (literally, with weapons) on your platform, you need to do something about it.

[edit] Here is a report on the assassination plot and subsequent raids: https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/15/german-police-launch-rai...

emteycz4• 5 years ago

The notion of a government watching over group conversations is scary.

kybernetyk3• 5 years ago

Sadly to most Europeans it's not scary. Even with the terrible track record of European governments.

sveme3• 5 years ago

Is it a group or a public forum? With the t.me links, isn't it more like a public forum?

dtech• 5 years ago

We seem pretty used to the idea that the NSA basically watches everything, which we've known since Snowden

BurningPenguin3• 5 years ago

Most governments are not interested in you talking nonsense in your group. They're interested in people planning to overthrow them or other criminal acts. Depending on the type of government that might be good or bad.

Applejinx2• 5 years ago

The notion of a platform watching over group conversations, with its only purpose being engagement, is scarier.

There is nothing more engaging than existential threat. As long as anybody anywhere stands to benefit from fomenting the idea of existential threat and using the terror thus inspired to get a social group to exterminate a selected other social group… which is then itself under existential threat and can respond in kind… the only refuge to this is something like a government or legal system watching over this.

Otherwise competitive pressure will ensure that the platform fomenting the most fear of existential threat will have the most engagement and will prosper. YouTube seems to have already recognized this and is grappling with it in its own way. I doubt Telegram has any wish to moderate its real purpose for existence and undermine the engagement it must have to survive.

And there is nobody who cannot be turned monstrous through invoking existential threat: all the better if it's a realistic fear, it will persist long after the tables are turned and the victim has become the monster in turn. History has shown this really clearly.

kybernetyk3• 5 years ago

Terrorists AND covid deniers? By God, Telegram must be closed ASAP!

Aerroon2• 5 years ago

Sadly, cutting out Germany means that you'd eventually have to cut out the entire EU. If you just block Germany they're going to push on the EU to take up this fight for them. It'll all be in the name of "stopping online abuse" or something like that.

Germany, in general, seems to be a very poor country to do digital business compared to most other places. This is the same country that required (requires?) streamers to get a broadcasting license that cost thousands of euros to stream to more than 500 people.

danbruc• 5 years ago

[...] to stream to more than 500 people.

More than 20,000 simultaneous viewers on averaged over a six months period and if the content is considered relevant for public opinion formation.

b3orn• 5 years ago

It's the other way around, if it's not going through local legislation it gets pushed to the EU level. Doing digital business doesn't seem to be that hard considering that in the end everyone still tries to get german customers/subscribers. And the ruling on broadcasting licenses for streamers was relaxed a lot, it's required if you had more than 20 000 viewers on average over the last 6 months, only very few german streamers are affected by that.

vetinari4• 5 years ago

Sadly, cutting out Germany means that you'd eventually have to cut out the entire EU.

Not really; some countries would be against just because it is Germany pushing for it. If necessary, they would call out Germany doing the nazi thing, again, and forcing the rest of Europe to do the same, again.

akho2• 5 years ago

the German government saying: Look here, you got a bunch of criminals and terrorists (literally, with weapons) on your platform, you need to do something about it.

This sounds like a police matter, and should be a question that is asked to, not by, the government.

Not that any government understands that…

sascha_sl3• 5 years ago

Unfortunately, it turns out that it is not too rare that these people doing something in between prepping and planned terrorism are police or military.

Milner08• 5 years ago

That is exactly what has happened? The police will be aware of this, and the government need to decide what to do.... The first step is clearly to engage with the platform. Maybe its you that doesn't understand?

sascha_sl3• 5 years ago

The equivalent to section 230 would be Section 10 Telemediengesetz, but from my own experience law enforcement here seizes first and asks questions later for anyone that's not a household name.

NetzDG is much less broad, only applying to social networks (so not Telegram) with more than 2M users.

sveme3• 5 years ago

Why is Telegram not a social network? What's the key differences between a social network, a forum and a messenger service (with groups) that we could define to figure out what telegram actually is?

sveme3• 5 years ago

Thank you for providing a balanced argument containing facts and further descriptions, in the best spirit of HN. Sadly, it will not keep this thread from becoming dominated by single liners and cheap shots. For evidence, see below.

It all boils down to the question of whether Telegram is a public forum or a messenger service.

dathinab2• 5 years ago

For me the answer is it's both.

A 1000+ group isn't really a messenger service anymore.

A 20 people family group clearly is a messenger service.

So IMHO the question is where is the limit? And is the limit based on other factors then just the number of involved people?

Also pushing this IMHO this doesn't change any of the problems they want to change. It likely even makes them worse.

ascar• 5 years ago

I feel this comment is unfairly treated and should be upvoted not downvoted. It provides pretty good insight about the situation.

As someone with family members that are being fed conspiracy theories through telegram groups I'm definitely suspicious. On the other hand, if telegram or the telegram group feature is banned another service will just take its place and these people will just feel more oppressed/attacked possibly making the situation worse.

Overall I feel social media is a net negative for society because it creates a feedback loop of your own "bubble" with more and more extremist and radical ideas, often with no scientific or even remotely factual basis.

dathinab2• 5 years ago

It might not be a popular opinion, but a group chat of 1000+ people is less messaging(1) and more either social network (through a badly implemented one) or a something like a publishing channel (if used mainly one directional).

(1): Messaging in the sense of a digital continuation of letter writing.

Still, it's a stupid move.

There are endless alternatives.

And the problem isn't really caused or amplified by Telegram, Telegram is just an arbitrary chosen tool which happen to meet the requirements for the given use case.

It's not even the best tool out there for the given use case.

In the end this is nothing more then trying to find a scapegoat to blame a out of control situation on. A situation caused by years of political/social negligence of increasingly out-of-touch political parties combined with out-of-touch media.

The choice of choosing it as a scapegoat already shows how out of touch it is, I mean like did they forget that it's one of the most widely used messengers in Germany by all parts of the society?? You are literally telling people which have gotten increasingly suspect of the government and media that the tool they are nicely using since years is supposedly easier. Putting people into a very obvious perceived difference between their reality and what you tell them, without a good reasoning basis, is a pretty sure fire way to lose more trust.

dabber21• 5 years ago

- Germany has a different take on freedom of speech from the US.

Germany has freedom of opinion, they explicitly decided against American style freedom of speech after WW2

dafoex• 5 years ago

I'm glad you've explained it. Maybe I'm being dumb, but I can't see where the article actually says what laws are being violated.

rndgermandude2• 5 years ago

Yeah, and that wasn't the only example. Here is another recent one[1]: German soldier (so a guy who had prolonged training and access to serious weapons) gives German government an "ultimatum". He was a heavy telegram user as well.

I am generally a proponent of as much free speech as possible, as long as it is lawful, and the laws in question are not just authoritarian wet dreams. Inciting violence or making threats is not lawful. It's unlawful not just in Germany but in most other places including the US too, and for good reason.

When it comes to these kinds of German telegram groups we're not even talking about thinly-veiled threats where there is wiggle room in interpretation, we're talking about people saying "we're at war and must fight until every politician and traitor is executed. Arm yourself today!".

Telegram groups promoting these kinds of threats daily with tens of thousands of members exist, and telegram provides tools to create and promote such groups easily. So I am not buying any claim that they are a mere messenger service.

This is therefore one of the few cases where I do not mind the government demanding the company take action, or else face legal consequences up to effectively shutting them down within Germany.

What gives me pause at the same time is that German politicians usually do not just demand Telegram shut down clearly illegal speech like threats, but also constantly talk about vague "misinformation"/"fake news"/"conspiracy theories". As much as "fake news" sucks, it cannot be the government in a free society deciding what is "real news".

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5q5vx/german-soldier-covid-...

kybernetyk3• 5 years ago

yeah, that's going to work. just like outlawing porn sites that wouldn't use a german age verification system ;)

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo4• 5 years ago

iPhone users have no sideloading capabilities and for androids you need to be at least a bit tech savvy. speaking only for mobile access if telegram gets dropped from the app stores it would shrink the user base.

BurningPenguin3• 5 years ago

It is possible for iPhone. But as you say, you need to be tech savvy for that.

odiroot2• 5 years ago

The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

tut-urut-utut4• 5 years ago

At she same time, Telegram gets praised in German media when it comes to allowing supporting pro western activist and opposition in Belarus, Russia, Hong-Kong and other “enemy” states.

It's hilarious to watch both praising and bashing Telegram in the same evening news, and how no journalist seems to care.

Schlaefer• 5 years ago

The news shows the extraordinary. It also reports car accidents and car shows, but not all the millions of people driving everyday.

zaik2• 5 years ago

So they're mentioning both the good and bad uses of something. What's wrong?

guerrilla2• 5 years ago

Tagesschau

Can you give me a date to look for an example in? I haven't see that yet.

bijant2• 5 years ago

https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/funk/todesdrohungen-t... „In Germany, alleged individual cases of calls for killing from the lateral thinker scene have been discussed for days. Research now shows that there have been calls to kill every day since mid-November.“

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/telegram-verfassungsschutz-... „Radicalized Corona Deniers What can the state do about Telegram? Corona deniers use the Telegram messenger service to let their fantasies of violence run free. The state wants to take action against it. The new interior minister is facing a mammoth task.“

https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/wdr-st... „North Rhine-Westphalia State security investigates corona demos: anti-Semitism in Telegram chats At a demonstration against the Corona measures in Kamp-Lintfort, a participant is said to have shown the Hitler salute on Tuesday. The Duisburg State Security is now investigating. The Duisburg State Security is investigating in the vicinity of the demonstrators who demonstrate as self-proclaimed "walkers" against the corona policy. The allegations are massive: It is about anti-Semitic hate speech. The focus is on chat groups that run via the "Telegram" service. The demonstrations are planned there.“

https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/br-recherche/querdenk... „MAD is investigating two other soldiers Investigations are currently underway against at least two other Bundeswehr soldiers because they made radical statements against corona measures. Research by BR and tagesschau.de revealed this . One should pay close attention to the choice of words, according to a mountain hunter in a more than seven-minute voice message published on the Telegram messenger platform in December last year. The Bundeswehr is a "company" in which everything is done to "destroy us patriots who are trapped in the Bundeswehr". What is meant is the obligation to enforce corona vaccinations for soldiers.“

pera• 5 years ago

Hilarious, everyone I know in Germany uses Telegram, it seems quite popular over there.

uniqueuid4• 5 years ago

It is, ~12 million users in a country of ~90 million.

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo4• 5 years ago

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

iqanq9• 5 years ago

I don't see the issue. People (should) have a right to meet other people with similar interests and organise.

theshrike79• 5 years ago

What if I distributed stickers with a phone number where to call to get drugs? Would Germany ban phones?

If I did it with an email address, would they ban email? :)

bijant2• 5 years ago

It's not like you need Telegram to buy Drugs in Hamburg. There are places like the U-Bahn Sternschanze or the Hafentreppe where Dealers have been continuously offering light and hard drugs for over a decade with an uptime that puts FAANG SLAs to shame. They occasionally get raided whenever the police wants to have their pictures in the local papers but it's not like there is anything you could get via Telegram that you couldn't get through a five minute walk. The only difference is that the Dealers protect their turf, so Telegram opens new avenues for competing dealers to enter the market.

thathndude2• 5 years ago

I’m willing to bet that for every drug deal facilitated on Telegram, there are 2x+ being facilitated on the WhatsApp and SMS networks of Germany.

ahiknsr• 5 years ago

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker

if those stickers contained email address rather than telegram channel then would we consider banning email services? Blocking Telegram because it is being used for drugs is absurd. Telegram is a messenger and if people are using it for drugs then what do you expect Telegram to do?

ce4• 5 years ago

and also: recently I get dragged into "free-thinking" circles, the same mechanism as with crypto and other spam applies. Apparently bots harvest accounts from big public groups, and once you join them the querdenker-spam appears.

It also doesn't help when Telegram doesnt act on laws being broken on their platform as well as being out of reach and effectively evading jurisdiction.

Also: My guess is that moderation is worse for non-english content. Just search via the "users and groups nearby" feature and you'll find drugs, prostitution, racist groups, vaccination certificate "services", covid denial groups and so on. It's a cesspool of shady stuff you won't find that easily on other messengers. Addendum: the 1.5gb-per-file file-sharing feature is also frequently used for piracy. There's PDF bots for serving NYT paywalled content and so on.

LargoLasskhyfv2• 5 years ago

What the F do you mean by all over Hamburg? I only see them around Sternschanze, St.Pauli and sometimes in and around stations of the Hoch-/S-Bahn, but much less, and more random. Ottensen? Almost none. Elbvororte? None, with the exception of the stations. Blankenese? None. Not even the station. Berliner Tor? Sticker heavy, but nothing special caught my eye so far. Although I haven't had a need to be there for about 4 months. Hm, Jungfernstieg. Clean. Hafencity. Clean. Reeperbahn maybe? No clue, I avoid being there as much as possible. Same goes for Hauptbahnhof.

shaan7• 5 years ago

Yep, just like "Oh you are downloading via torrent? Why do you do illegal stuff like that?"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

thathndude2• 5 years ago

What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations.

A bad actor that wants to hobble free speech and communication could flood a system with illegal, antisemitic speech, and then turn around and use that speech that they are spreading as a justification to have the communication platform taken down.

captainmuon• 5 years ago

You don't even need false flag operations. Real COVID-deniers and Nazis are damn convenient if you want to ban telegram. They are also convenient if you want to prevent more strict COVID measures in order to "save the economy". Or to get everybody infected in a semi-controlled manner so you can "return back to normal". Or if you want to close the borders and restrict immigration.

A lot of these people who think they are very edgy, critical and radical are just being played by the establishment.

ChuckNorris892• 5 years ago

What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations.

Yeah, the German police/state is not new to this. There are always reports that the German police in plain clothes infiltrate protest groups and start throwing rocks at the riot police in uniforms, in order to justify police intervention by force to break up the protest.

Arnt2• 5 years ago

Well, almost, but the difference is significant.

Only one Telegram feature is mentioned in the source documents I've read, namely public searchable groups. I've heard that people in the ministries and agencies worry that nazis can recruit e.g. by searching for groups where people worry about this or that threat to nature, then joining and gradually trying to turn conversation towards threats to the Homeland. That kind of thing.

A communication platform doesn't have to have that. Signal has groups, but you can't search for and join a group except by knowing a person in the group. Facebok has groups too, and some of those are (rumour has it) used/mentioned like the Telegram ones.

I don't understand why the general media talk about "encrypted messenger service" when the source documents focus on a single feature that is essentially unencrypted, because public and searchable.

ekianjo• 5 years ago

Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

When the media is used as propaganda - surely this has never happened before?

iqanq9• 5 years ago

On an unrelated note - Telegram is already heavily censored on iPhones because of app store policies and the team refuses to put out an uncensored IPA file that we can sideload to our phones. If someone from the team reads this (I doubt it, since they are very disconnected from western media) please consider it. You already do it for Android!

throwawayacc23• 5 years ago

Out of curiosity what do you mean by censored? Are there groups that cannot be listed on the iphone app?

iqanq9• 5 years ago

Exactly, channels, groups, and bots.

omnicognate• 5 years ago

Wouldn't they be kicked off the app store for that?

therufa• 5 years ago

you can always build your own app from source IF that's an option. The app itself is open source. https://github.com/TelegramMessenger/Telegram-iOS

zaik2• 5 years ago

Don't buy a phone where a single company can decide what software you are allowed to run.

iqanq9• 5 years ago

I haven't. I can sideload apps just fine. But Telegram doesn't provide me with the app file to sideload.

As another comment says, I could compile it myself, but that is hard for someone with no expertise. Not to mention that I wouldn't trust an IPA that someone else put out. It's better if telegram themselves built and host that IPA file.

vetinari4• 5 years ago

It is not possible to do what you are asking for on iOS. They do it for Android because it is possible to sideload apks, but they cannot do the same for iOS.

iqanq9• 5 years ago

You can sideload apps on ios without even being jailbroken using sideloadly or altstore.

estranhosidade• 5 years ago

We are also having this discussion here in Brazil, some supreme court minister is all fussy and triggered because telegram doesn't bans ""misinformation"" and ""hate speech"".

elforce002• 5 years ago

What about whatsapp?

uniqueuid4• 5 years ago

Ok, a lot of the points raised here come up all the time; maybe it helps if I summarize some more of them:

- Argument: States cannot ban/close platforms - sure they can, as soon as you kick an app off the app store it's over for most of the users. That's a severe step though, and could be legally contested; my personal opinion is that it's realistic a court could deem a complete shutdown unconstitutional.

- Argument: This is censorship - not really, censorship in the German legal context means pre-control of messages before dissemination. The deal here is about implementing measures to follow German laws. Of course, in a wider sense, this is some sort of censorship mechanism which has some technical similarity with other infrastructures such as those in china. But that's the tradeoff in Germany - it's restricting free speech to protect pro-democratic elements. Whether that works or not is going to be an important question in the next years.

tux3• 5 years ago

This is censorship - not really, censorship in the German legal context [...]

Censorship, and the legal concept of censorship, are such very different things that using one as the response to the other is silly!

The local lawmaker's definition of censorship in a legal context, when transposed in a non-legal discussion, is just one country's opinion, not an authoritative answer to whether something is censorship.

brazzy• 5 years ago

What is the authoritative answer then?

uniqueuid4• 5 years ago

I'm not sure I follow - the definition of censorship is in some way the most important question here.

It's absolutely vital to understand that prohibiting some speech has been a core feature of Germany's democracy since 1945. At the same time, the public use of the word "censorship" has diluted so much (especially online) that it's hardly useful.

So I'd argue that it totally makes sense to try and define what we're talking about, and how and why the state intervenes.

wreath3• 5 years ago

. But that's the tradeoff in Germany - it's restricting free speech to protect pro-democratic elements. Whether that works or not is going to be an important question in the next years.

It's a tradeoff and before you know it, you are the one sitting on the wrong side of the table. Watcha gonna do then?

EGreg6• 5 years ago

Another example of how centralized messengers are more vulnerable than decentralized, end-to-end encrypted networks, where anyone can run a client.

To clarify how regular people could get access to a client… any https website could host a front end widget, for instance. Easy delivery via web browser (which is general-purpose enough that it can’t ban all possible widgets and hard to ban).

throw8932894• 5 years ago

Where is antifa when you need them :)

ryanar• 5 years ago

Germany banned Wolfenstein 3D when it came out in the 90s. What happened? Wolfenstein became one of the most viral games in Germany. If people want to get Telegram in Germany, they will one way or another.

hnbad2• 5 years ago

Wolfenstein became "viral" because there was no legal way to obtain a copy and peer-to-peer spread is by definition "viral". I'd wager Wolfenstein significantly underperformed both in sales and number of players compared to if it had been commercially available. Remember that this was pre-WWW, also PC gaming was much more of a technologically literate hobbyist space and copying floppies was fairly straightforward.

Most Android users probably don't sideload apps at the moment. Telegram is a vital communication tool for the Querdenker (antivax) movement as well as far-right extremist groups. Extremely motivated extremists will surely jump to another platform, but censorship is amazingly effective at hindering recruitment and keeping out the "normies".

FWIW the ban of Wolfenstein was informed by an understanding of games as pure entertainment for kids in the vein of Tetris, Pacman or Space Invaders. "We put swastikas and nazis in this video game" was a legitimately horrifying prospect at the time. If modern Wolfenstein games insisted on not modifying the releases for Germany, they would likely initially be banned but be able to overturn this ban once and for all given we now understand games as a narrative medium like film and nobody ever had to worry about removing the nazis from the Indiana Jones movies.

VLM• 5 years ago

"I want to ban the other guy's political speech" is business as usual for centuries even in the "free" west.

Whats new is "I want to band all criticism of my religion", that aspect is new for the "free" west.

lampe35• 5 years ago

So leaking addresses of politicians you don't like and calling on your day by day getting more aggressive and extreme far right telegram group is okay for you?

disgu• 5 years ago

This is just another version of the "so you don't care about the children?" argument.

wreath3• 5 years ago

and do you think if the stupid government shuts off Telegram, these groups will cease their activity and change their minds?

oleg_antonyan• 5 years ago

They tried to block it in Russia in 2018. And failed miserably. Blocking entire subnets, millions of IP addresses on AWS, DigitalOcean and other providers, but Telegram servers can hope between different instances, so it ended up as wack-a-moll where thousands of innocents sites were blocked including some government-related services, banks, payment processing, my little startup project hosted on DO, but not Telegram

vetinari4• 5 years ago

In 2018, domain fronting was a thing. Since then, it became more difficult, as the cloud providers prohibited it.

However, to compensate, there's now encrypted SNI, so the situation is returning back to the 2018 one.

323• 5 years ago

Not just Germany, a lot of very respectable publications are worried about Telegram:

White supremacists openly organize racist violence on Telegram, report finds

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-t...

Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot? Telegram and Signal, the encrypted services that keep conversations confidential, are increasingly popular. Our tech columnists discuss whether this could get ugly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/t...

A report this week found that the messaging app had emerged as a central hub for several conspiracy movements espousing antisemitic tropes and memes, including QAnon, as well as others on the extreme right promoting violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/15/parler-...

Far-right groups move online conversations from social media to chat apps — and out of view of law enforcement

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/14/telegram-war...

In collaboration with anti-fascist research group the White Rose Society, the Guardian has tracked McLean’s activity through the rabbit warren of largely unregulated Telegram groups and found that he describes a vastly different version of his intentions.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/26/where...

Why right-wing extremists’ favorite new platform is so dangerous. Telegram’s lax content moderation and encrypted chats make it a convenient tool for extremists.

https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-socia...

0x_rs• 5 years ago

But none of the links you provided make an argument against Telegram itself, and you wouldn't find one anywhere. Encryption is free, and so is the ability to use any platform or communication method. It's pointless to argue against "lax content moderation", or "trendy radicalization platform of the month".. but I would expect no less from a website such as Vox. Perhaps those complaining currently about it in Germany may consider spending their time more wisely tackling the societal issues that cause such phenomena?

rvz• 5 years ago

So we should ban anything that these 'white supremacists', 'right-wing extremists' or 'conspiracy movements' are using, even if it is end-to-end encryption which can be used by anybody? Does that mean we should we ban encryption in general because the same so-called 'Nazis' can also use something like Signal for secure communications?

No. Why? Simply because not only it is free to use, but the roads to hell are paved with good intentions. This is what these 'journalists' from these publications fail to highlight each time privacy or free software supporters build tools that can also be used by terrorists and extremists.

Like one of the comments, the links provided make no argument against Telegram or similar tools like Telegram itself. The responses of these editors in those links towards mentioning a tool used for good now being abused by malicious users is highly predictable, repetitive and at most unsurprising.

lamp987• 5 years ago

a lot of very respectable publications
links CNN, Guardian and Vox

hamilyon2• 5 years ago

Does Apple comply is some judge rules that telegram app should be deleted from devices?

Does Germany have legal and technical means to block the web version, web.telegram.org ?

taubek• 5 years ago

You shutdown one app, people move to another one. I don't see how could this work.

ChuckNorris892• 5 years ago

This is how it works: The Government will shut down the apps that refuse to cooperate with the state until either they start to cooperate, or people migrate to the ones who already do cooperate with the state. Simple.

Either way, the state wins, since not all chat apps are self-righteous enough to say no to a lucrative market on principle of refusing to cooperate with a nation state. They learned that from watching companies bend over backwards for the Chinese market.

hnbad2• 5 years ago

This doesn't clarify what "shutdown" means. The last thing I heard was pressuring Google to remove it from the Play Store in Germany but this sounds like it could also mean a DNS block (which notably doesn't prevent traffic to the IP addresses).

blackbear_• 5 years ago

Great, what am I gonna use on the pinephone now?!

sebow• 5 years ago

Good luck to Germany in this futile approach.Also, what happened to WhatsApp,Wickr, or even Facebook?Those have been aswell used in terrorist attacks years ago when the crisis hit Germany, UK, and France more than the rest of the continent.Suddenly they're not a problem at all, we only need to ban something when it's going against the current narrative.

amelius• 5 years ago

Makes sense. After closing down their nuclear plants, Germany is now completely dependent on Russian gas. They don't want to be dependent on Russian telecom as well.

dntRa• 5 years ago

This should remind people that the SPD ("Social" Democrats) is an authoritarian party that is nicknamed "the traitor party" for repeatedly backstabbing its voters.

Schroeder has destroyed the welfare state, increased reliance on Russia's natural gas and got a job at Gazprom after he retired from politics.

I'm sure that Putin will be very glad to shut down Telegram as well.

Same as in the U.S., liberals in Germany are very happy to spread COVID-19 misinformation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/08/sotomayor...

bpmayer2• 5 years ago

Let's ban the good old mail service. There are many nasty and unpleasant people who use paper.

TacticalCoder• 5 years ago

550 MAU and growing fast. 7th most download iOS and Android app. All the "But WhatsApp, there's nothing to do vs FB, they are too powerful" have to admit Telegram is quite the success story.

mschuster91• 5 years ago

German here.

While I do agree with her that something must be done about Telegram given that criminal activity including Holocaust denial and plotting murder of governors [1] can go on there without any moderation while requests for providing IP addresses and other user data are being routinely ignored by the service, she is falling into the same trap as many interior politicians do and thinks that the solution is primarily to put pressure on Telegram.

It would be better to put police pressure on the ringleaders and participators of such Telegram channels. They are often enough known by clear name and march on the streets so they can be arrested there, but that requires actual effort from a police force that is already under suspicion of far-right infiltration.

[1] https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/kretschmer-drohung-razzia-1...

beardedman2• 5 years ago

You've had censorship in Germany for a very long time now, but I don't think people like to think of it as censorship. You (literally) can land up in jail for verbalising certain things. IMO, the scary part is how positively people view this, like it's a feature (and then proceed to talk about the CCP or Russia like they are stuck in the mid 1500's).

foepys• 5 years ago

You (literally) can land up in jail for verbalising certain things.

Go to the US, go to a police officer, and just tell them you want to kill the President.

Watch what happens.

There is no such thing as absolute free speech, even in the US.

beardedman2• 5 years ago

Do not confuse threatening bodily harm to a person with free speech - they are very different.

Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

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