Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes (2013)

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22751415

by Hooke • 5 years ago

235 165 5 years ago

axegon_2• 5 years ago

Come to think of it, this is great thinking. Sure, it's mostly symbolic but the message itself is beautiful: Finland is a wealthy nation and even in wealthy nations people don't get equal start: surely you'd have better options when your dad is an F1 world champion than the local plumber, but even so, this serves as a nice reminder. Sort of reminds me of a short story written about a century ago(and only one English translation that I'm aware of which is absolute crap annoyingly). With that in mind this[1] is probably more worthy of reading than the wretched translation.

[1] https://lamfyk.wordpress.com/2020/05/02/the-tale-of-the-stai...

masklinn2• 5 years ago

Sure, it's mostly symbolic

Is it? The maternity box is worth a lot, and that the box itself doubles up as a crib (by design) seems like a huge convenience.

Hamuko• 5 years ago

FWIW, you can actually choose a cash payment (170 euro) instead of receiving the maternity package, but 95% of first-time mothers choose the maternity package and two thirds of all mothers.

smoe• 5 years ago

I’m not sure if saying it’s a beautiful message does the initiative justice. It was introduced all the way back in 1938 for low income families at a time Finland was quite a bit a poorer country.

I remember reading that a big goal initially was to reduce child mortality rate. One only gets the box if you visit a doctor during pregnancy for consultations which often wasn’t the case back then. But I don’t have source at hand writing on the phone, so might be wrong on that.

axegon_2• 5 years ago

I'm talking about today: Finland is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. In that aspect, it's mostly symbolic.

reidjs3• 5 years ago

I think even considering using a box instead of a crib in the states may get you a visit from child protective services, or at least looks of disgust from your family or in-laws. Does anyone have experience trying this out?

unlikelymordant• 5 years ago

Does anyone have experience trying this out?

Everybody in finland?

reidjs3• 5 years ago

Oh I meant suggesting it in the United States. I feel like it would not go over well, unless of course you or your SO are from Finland!

analog313• 5 years ago

There's a widespread legend that poor parents in the US would put a dresser drawer on the floor. Sometimes the baby came before all of the preparations had been made. Sometimes folks were just poor, or smart, or both.

AnIdiotOnTheNet• 5 years ago

I slept in dresser drawers frequently as an infant, or so I've been told. It was convenient when staying with family out of town and the like apparently.

pandemicsoul2• 5 years ago

Probably besides the point, but you have an extremely skewed idea of what prompts a visit from Child Protective Services in the United States.

rectang2• 5 years ago

https://wehavekids.com/parenting/InsideCPS#what-about-ridicu...

It does not matter how ridiculous or false a claim may be. When an investigator receives the referral, they are legally obligated to investigate.

It only takes a judgmental busybody to get a visit from CPS. Then you better pray CPS doesn't find fault with you. And it helps if you're white:

https://www.parents.com/news/cps-has-a-systemic-racism-probl...

systemBuilder3• 5 years ago

How about leaving your 16 year old twin boys to fend for themselves at home? Yes. We got a visit from CPS ... SHEESH!

authed2• 5 years ago

Doesn't CO2 accumulate in the box since there are no holes on the sides?

thepete2• 5 years ago

apparently co2's density is only slightly higher than the other gases, so they all mix. Otherwise all of the atmosphere's co2 would be at ground level too, wouldn't it?

atomicnumber3• 5 years ago

Disclaimer: this is just my general impression after googling around for how much CO2 buildup/concentration might be a factor/cause of SIDS after becoming a parent. It's by no means any kind of reputable research, just the googling of a dad.

The relative differences in weight/density between CO2, nitrogen, and oxygen just aren't big enough to matter much compared to the other forces that mix room air: convection, currents from forced air HVAC, air leakage, etc.

Air is already 80% nitrogen, and when we exhale we only drop the % of oxygen from 20% to 16%. And consider the fairly small lung volume of the kind of infant who would be sleeping in the box.

I'm sure you could get CO2 buildup in the box in very controlled lab settings, but in general practice as a crib it doesn't seem to be an issue.

And in case you were wondering about the general case: is CO2 buildup an issue for infants? The answer seems to just be: no, and it doesn't even depend much on how much you run your HVAC or if you have a fan or how hole-y your crib is, etc. Room air just mixes enough normally that it's not that big of a deal.

Thlom• 5 years ago

It could be a problem in the stroller. Some parents cover the stroller with a blanket to shield the child from direct sun light or wind. That is not a good idea, but don’t think many kids die from it to be honest. And I have left all our kids sleeping in the stroller with a rain cover without any issues.

By the way, letting children sleep outside in the stroller is great. They sleep so much better outside. Especially if it’s cold outside, just put the child in a sleeping bag and put on a hat and they will sleep like a rock. Just saying since I have the impression this is a very Scandinavian thing?

kupopuffs• 5 years ago

is cardboard airtight?

authed2• 5 years ago

I don't think that it can leak CO2 in any significant way... other commenters made more convincing arguments though

wongarsu• 5 years ago

Gases really like to mix, much more so than liquids. The box contains a baby that causes air movement (breathing and moving), I would be surprised if the box contains substantially different air than the immediate surroundings.

usrbinbash2• 5 years ago

Plus, the human body radiates off a lot of thermal energy, warm gases rise, so purely by thermal convection enough mixing occurs.

Retric• 5 years ago

Effectively no, first if you look at the picture there are holes on the sides and no body is putting the lid on.

More widely Cold CO2 from dry ice or pressurized tanks is a problem because it’s both releasing a lot of CO2 and that CO2 is very cold which means it sinks quickly. On the other hand babies breath is both fairly slow and has a relatively low CO2 concentration which makes it easier to mix with the air. On top of this breath is warm so combined with a convection current from body heat in otherwise still air it has a tendency to rise which improves mixing.

An extreme version of this happens when a baby or small child falls down a pipe and can avoid suffocating for hours.

nextlevelwizard4• 5 years ago

You don't put the lid on, mate.

n4bz0r• 5 years ago

From the list of the box contents:

Condoms

Given you've received the box, isn't it a bit too late for that?

darrylb42• 5 years ago

Condoms will hopefully prevent a second box arriving too soon.

thaumasiotes2• 5 years ago

Nursing will do that job automatically.

usr1106• 5 years ago

Getting pregnant too early again is not recommended. The body of the new mother should get some time too fully recover.

dzhiurgis• 5 years ago

Women can be very fertile right after birth, although most don’t get their periods for months while breastfeeding.

We got like 100 condoms after birth, which would mean years of sex given the stress and discomfort after birth.

AussieWog934• 5 years ago

We got like 100 condoms after birth, which would mean years of sex given the stress and discomfort after birth.

Are you speaking from experience or is this just your expectation? My wife and I were back to normal pretty much as soon as everything healed up (4-6 weeks or so)

analog313• 5 years ago

Actually, immediately after the birth of a child is a time when a lot of people re-think their birth control strategy.

29athrowaway• 5 years ago

A cushioned cardboard box is enough for a newborn. Its weakness could be moisture and high flammability. But aside from that it is perfect.

pandemicsoul2• 5 years ago

I mean, they've been doing this for decades. Don't you think their dataset is probably more informed than your speculation?

jmchuster• 5 years ago

as my dad loves to say, 3000 years of chinese medicine _can't_ be wrong

2muchcoffeeman• 5 years ago

Well, those 2 criticisms are true. You can test that out yourself.

What’s missing is that lots of things in your home are bad in water and are flammable. But how often do you need to save a baby from an evil villain by tossing their little box into a river and hope a nice childless couple who always wanted a child finds them and raises them as their own?

Situations where the material is a liability are few and far between.

dragonwriter2• 5 years ago

The maternity kit includes more than just the box itself, which (along with concurrent economic development and other changes) confounds study of its effects.

In fact, with imitations of the maternity kit (or just the box as a sleeping spot) becoming more popular outside of Finland recently, often boosted by marketing playing on the correlation of the kit and the decline in infant mortality in Finland, a number of health entities in recent years have raised concerns that the box-as-crib itself may be a safety risk rather than an aid.

tomcam• 5 years ago

Don’t worry, in my experience the vast majority of infants, while fairly moist, are not particularly flammable.

jhgb• 5 years ago

while fairly moist, are not particularly flammable

These two things seem to be connected. In my experience infants get more flammable as they get drier.

nextlevelwizard4• 5 years ago

This is really odd comment. Like, yes, if you leave it outside in the rain that probably isn't the best for it, but it is a bed thous usually stay indoors. I don't get what your imaginary scenario is where the structure of the box is randomly compromised by the moisture.

The flammability is even more strange. Again yeah, maybe don't put your baby box right in from the of the fireplace, but you probably wouldn't leave your baby there unsupervised anyway. Also babies usually aren't smokers so you don't have to worry about them dozing off with a cigarette and burning down the house.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

Commenting on flammability is rather odd, but I have actually seen flammability warning tags attached to kids clothing — perhaps a sign of our overly litigious society.

jsnell• 5 years ago

There's three previous 250+ comment discussions of this article:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12547353

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20884456

Loranubi• 5 years ago

In Taiwan these cardboard boxes for infants are sold in most baby shops as well. Although much more expensive than a comparable box from the post office...

alliao• 5 years ago

I wanted one so bad I asked whether they'd send to New Zealand, and it was almost $700 USD or so, luckily after some searching I come across NZ version of it minus all the supplies

https://www.wdhb.org.nz/other/wahakurapepi-pods/

songzme• 5 years ago

My baby is due in 4 weeks. My wife and I shopped for weeks trying to buy a 2nd hand crib that was affordable (We ended up getting one for free from a neighbor on nextdoor).

Never did it cross my mind that I could just use a cardboard box! I will definitely make a cardboard box for my upcoming baby, use it as much as I can, and see if I could get by without a crib! Perfect DIY project for a stay home dad, cribs always felt excessive to me.

Swizec• 5 years ago

As a non parent surrounded by friends having kids I often wonder how much money and faff is wasted on things kids won’t even remember.

JasonFruit• 5 years ago

As a parent, I look back and think how much time and money I've wasted on things and actions my kids neither wanted nor remember. I look at my current life and wonder what I'll feel that way about in the future. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell what is worthwhile and what is not at the time.

analog313• 5 years ago

A side effect of birth rates and other demographic trends, people no longer have a huge network of friends and relatives with kids, to talk sense into us, and to share outgrown stuff. When I was an infant, my parents probably had a dozen other families with young kids all living on the same block. You also experienced the baby-hood of siblings and neighbors while you were still a kid yourself.

pomian• 5 years ago

As with most gifts, the giving of presents is often more meaningful for the person giving. The save with kids toys. The parents are really buying it for themselves, perhaps to express their feelings. As an aside, the parents are also learning. No one is born with experience, so experimenting witj things until you get it right, happens with kids stuff too.

t0mas883• 5 years ago

Many things you buy for a baby are more to make your own life easier. Doesn't really matter that the baby remembers nothing about it.

refurb• 5 years ago

Not only that, but money wasted on stuff that gets used for 1-2 years then is no longer needed.

My wife and I joined a "free baby stuff" facebook group and got almost everything we needed for free.

watwut• 5 years ago

Why would you set the benchmark at "the kid remembering it"?

pmorici• 5 years ago

I went with this solid wood crib from IKEA and stained it myself. Looks great pretty darn cheap and easy to break down and store. Can also convert to a trundle style and double as the child’s first real bed so it gets several years of use.

My wife got one of those boxes from a places that gives them out for free but the kid out grows it fast and it is hell on your back since it is really unsafe to leave it on a table or dresser where it could be easily knocked off. Now it collects dust and junk and I can’t get her to dispose of it.

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/sniglar-crib-beech-50248541/

neal_jones• 5 years ago

That ikea crib is perfectly executed- I couldn’t come up with a good reason to pay more for something

qqqwerty• 5 years ago

Check out your local Buy Nothing group on facebook as well. I have gotten tons of baby stuff from there. While we have purchased quite a few things over the past year, had I had a little more patience, and had my wife been more on board, I am pretty sure we could have acquired pretty much everything except diapers from Buy Nothing.

geoduck14• 5 years ago

I have several kids. Let me share some experiences with you:

A card board box is probably fine starting out, but your baby will out grow it.

The sleeping container should have walls high enough to prevent him/her from climbing out - this might take 9 months, but younwill want it

You NEED to remove all fluf and excess padding in your DIY "crib". Babies can suffocate on cute "fluffy" blankets

If you build a wooden crib, pay special care to the distance between vertical bars. Specifically, you want narrow slats so your baby cannot stick his/her head through it

My current child is in a portable "pack and play". They are cheap, portable, and fit in our closet. She turns 2 next month and it was a really good idea.

seibelj• 5 years ago

Not worth DIYing anything that can potentially kill your baby. All of the stuff sold is engineered to prevent this from happening. Zero percent chance I'm hammering some 2 x 4's together to save $80.

PebblesRox3• 5 years ago

The recommendation for crib slats is narrow enough so that the body can't get through, not just the head (so they can't wiggle out feet first and then get their heads stuck).

https://www.cpsc.gov/safety-education/safety-guides/cribs/cr...

t43562• 5 years ago

Just for balance - I bought a crib and we never used it. My daughter only stayed asleep when next to us.

CapitalistCartr• 5 years ago

Pack 'n Plays are a Godsend. Whomever invented them is a saint, and every first-time parent should be issued one.

danielheath• 5 years ago

Bear in mind:

* Mass manufactured Finnish ones have a base-mat that fits snugly. A very slight gap is a suffocation risk.

* When your first baby arrives, you spend a lot more time than you're used to on your knees. Cribs, being raised, are far easier on your knees than a box on the floor.

learc83• 5 years ago

Very true. I have a 2 month old and I’m tall enough that the bassinet we bought was uncomfortably low. I ended up building a platform to raise it.

gjhh244• 5 years ago

My wife's grandparents actually made a metal frame specifically designed to hold the Finnish maternity box at a comfortable height. Now it's in use for our newborn, since the box size hasn't changed.

qwertox• 5 years ago

Not sure if an Amazon box would be equal, they have a smell to them. It looks like the Finnish boxes are wrapped in some material and I'd guess that some kind of checks would be made to ensure safety.

I wish your family all the best.

PebblesRox3• 5 years ago

For the early months (or longer if you child proof the entire room), you can do just the crib mattress directly on the floor. This is also an easy way to set up a secondary nap spot somewhere else in the house (since it's safer for small infants to sleep in the same room as an adult vs. by themselves).

cranekam• 5 years ago

If your baby is due in 4 weeks it’s likely it’ll be quite a few months until a crib is needed. The first months will pass in a tired blur of the baby sleeping only on you or your partner, followed waking up the second you try to put them on anything else. Once they use a crib though just buy one — you won’t have time to build and it’s important to make it safe.

params2• 5 years ago

That's not the case for all babies, imho they come with different habits right from the start. I have ~10 kids in my closest family, all with different sleeping habits.

whatshisface• 5 years ago

Don't forget about wet cardboard smell, which is full of weird volatile organic compounds.

xorcist• 5 years ago

Don't stress too much about it. Very few items are really necessary for a newborn, most things can be gotten when you need them.

As DIY projects go, check out something called a "baby nest". It's an insert that can be used for either a shared bed or a crib, easy to sew and can be convenient.

pxeboot• 5 years ago

They give these out at some hospitals in the US too [1].

[1] https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/health/2016/07/04/alaskas-la...

d0gsg0w00f• 5 years ago

"I'll require a second box as we're doing a Lotus Birth"

[Weak stomach warning] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_birth

daenz2• 5 years ago

It's a tradition that dates back to the 1930s and it's designed to give all children in Finland, no matter what background they're from, an equal start in life.

That's like saying that because we have public school, all kids have an equal education. It's plain wrong. It doesn't work unless you force everyone to use the box and force everyone to go to public schools.

wutwutwutwut• 5 years ago

If the box is designed for that purpose then it's designed for that purpose. Then it's not plain wrong. The article is not saying that all the kids have an equal start in life so not sure where you got that from.

Your reasoning is like saying Red Cross isn't designed to reduce the suffering of people because there are still suffering people. It's an odd claim to make.

bobsmooth• 5 years ago

Read "equal start" as "guaranteed minimum".

andi999• 5 years ago

Public schools are very good in Finland.

raptorraver• 5 years ago

Yes, also (at least) 95% of kids go to public school in Finland.

nextlevelwizard4• 5 years ago

I don't get what your comment is trying to say. If someone doesn't want to take the box they take the cash. If they take the box and immediately throw it into trash that is on them. Everyone still gets equal start.

daenz2• 5 years ago

Equal start...when you disregard all the pre-existing advantages and disadvantages that people have accumulated generationally. "Equal start" apparently means "equal bare minimum" not "everyone starting from the same place."

nxpnsv• 5 years ago

When we were travelling our baby slept in a suit case, (thinking outside the box?). I bought a clone from https://www.finnishbabybox.com/learn/tradition/, the content is great too, and the box is now used for toys...

koksik202• 5 years ago

Being a father of two and seeing how much money and decisions goes into buying baby stuff and thinking how struggling family might find it inaccessible it makes me cry to read “give all children in Finland, no matter what background they're from, an equal start in life.” Other countries give welfare benefits in form of money but that can be spent on things like addictions, in this case giving the set of necessary care items is much better

Crosseye_Jack• 5 years ago

Other countries give welfare benefits in form of money but that can be spent on things like addictions

Why is it that when discussing welfare benefits the topic of them being spent on addictions is often brought up.

If an addiction is a problem, treat the addiction instead of treating welfare recipients as children. How pissed would you be if your employer dictated how you spent your wages because certain activities went against their beliefs. No donating to your local church because they believe religion is silly and their employees shouldn’t be wasting money on such things. People would be pissed. An extreme example I know but helps get the point across, but same could also be said about any vice we partake in.

Coming from a shitty childhood myself such things were often brought up and implemented poorly which tbh actually hurt us as kids growing up.

Yeah a few will exploit what ever system that’s put into place, you have only got to look at most tax systems to see that, but you don’t punish the many just because of the few.

But just a bit further down the article

Mothers have a choice between taking the box, or a cash grant, currently set at 140 euros, but 95% opt for the box as it's worth much more.

Bulk ordering and a fairly consistent birth rate will mean the government are not paying retail for these items so the box can be worth more than straight cash even if the cost of the government per box is close to the cash grant but gives an incentive to parents take higher value to them option.

Sorry for the rant, it just pisses me off having been though it. EDIT: Also lack of coffee, I'm grumpy without coffee :-P

op00to• 5 years ago

It’s a belief that one is “more moral” than the “addict” so more deserving of government help.

randunel• 5 years ago

Your opinion is different than others', and that's fine. I'll vote for MPs and governments which limit the welfare to goods and services, and you're free to vote for MPs which hand out cash, no questions asked. And that's fine, because we are the taxpayers, and we contribute to these decisions through our votes.

otrahuevada• 5 years ago

In some countries, government support networks grow out of christian charity schemes where a powerful person will discretionarily share a tiny portion of their time and wealth with the destitute of their choosing and gets to be enthusiastically cheered on for this sacrifice.

This often does not translate well to actual country-scale structural problems. Especially if in some of those countries' individuals also happen to consider paying taxes as a way in to government-scale decision making.

palijer2• 5 years ago

How pissed would you be if your employer dictated how you spent your wages because certain activities went against their beliefs.

A drug addiction is a disease, not a belief. Spending money that should be used for necessities on drugs is not a belief, it is a symptom of a disease and should be regarded as such.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

I would appreciate this baby box even as a parent fortunate enough to afford the material goods it contains. A large part of its value lies in the time and effort saved and the psychological comfort in knowing I haven’t forgotten anything essential.

mikewarot2• 5 years ago

Here in the US we had a special high strength box that allowed our child to sleep between us when warranted, it was strong enough to keep us from rolling over accidents.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

Was this special box something you purchased or something you put together yourself?

mikewarot2• 5 years ago

It was over a decade ago, and google fails me. Sorry.

shifty1• 5 years ago

Scotland also has a very similar baby box, introduced a few years ago due to the success of the Finnish one. https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box

Content of the box: https://www.parentclub.scot/baby-box

Study on impact of the box: https://www.gov.scot/publications/baby-box-evaluation/pages/...

test1235• 5 years ago

We got a one of these in Scotland, and I have to say a few years on, we're only just getting rid of the last of the items. Some items were arguably more useful than others (but I think the inventory is reviewed and updated constantly) - we never used the baby box as intended and it could be argued that we never really needed the support, but I can't understand the people who would argue against such an initiative.

People in this country were up in arms when this was first suggested ... bristling with the absolute indignity at the thought of money being spent to help others.

iso16312• 5 years ago

People in this country were up in arms when this was first suggested ... bristling with the absolute indignity at the thought of money being spent to help others.

Really? At General Elections Scotland tends to vote dramatically in favour of parties that do redistribution, far more than the rest of the UK

spurtrenolds• 5 years ago

People in this country were up in arms when this was first suggested ...

Very strongly disagree with this.

Yes there was some grumbling from the usual attention seeking (read 'shit-stirring') pundits in the right wing media, but to suggest the country was up in arms is simply false. The plan was rather welcomed, the only concerns being how best it fit it in with other NHS natal treatment.

wombatmobile• 5 years ago

In Sweden new parents get a few pieces of pine and an Allen key.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

This approach has been successfully exported all around the world, wonderfully packaged as compact 3D puzzles.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

There are ~3.75 million babies born in the US each year [1]. If each baby box costs ~200 USD [2] the country could supply baby boxes for all babies with an annual outlay of ~750 million USD.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/births.htm

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29646674

rich_sasha3• 5 years ago

I’m perpetually amazed how well Finland is ran. It’s just a country with its shit frozen together.

It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way.

burntoutfire• 5 years ago

At least four factors differentiate the two:

1. Finland had only one scary and ravenous empire near its border. Poland had two: Russia and Germany/Prussia, or even three, if you count the Austro-Hungarians.

2. Finland is much easier to defend.

3. Finland was a free, market-based country since WWII, whereas Poland had to implement the insane communist policies. So, essentially Finland had a 45-year head start over Poland in building free society and economy.

4. Finland is much less populous. It's much easier to bring wealth via industrialization to a country of 5 millions than to country of 38 millions.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 5 years ago

Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire, but only one year under communist rule. Poland spent 50 years under the communists. Two generations of brain washing and negative selection.

nickff• 5 years ago

"It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way."

Poland seems to be doing much better than many of the other countries which suffered behind the iron curtain. The comparable countries would seem to be the other former members of the Warsaw Pact: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, and Romania.

rich_sasha3• 5 years ago

Economically, yes, possibly. I'm rather concerned about the societal growth. Poland is, if anything, growing more intolerant, partisan, narrow-minded, and at times just outright stupid.

For example, the current, still fairly popular government, is alienating literally all allies around, for no apparent reason. Pissing off Americans over a forced sale of a US-owned TV channel, pissing off the EU for a host of petty and ultimately futile little sorties for years now, pissing off Czechs over an, ultimately, minor border conflict to do with a power plant, perpetual beef with Russia. Out of all our neighbours, we're not in conflict only with the Baltic Sea right now, but it's still early in the day.

This has all in fact intensified over the last few months, which see hybrid aggression from Belarus and a Russian army ready to strike at Ukraine, Poland's immediate neighbour. So not a good time to alienate allies and friends.

And worst of all, this seems to be popular. Screw these meddling foreigners. Education is being ripped to shreds for ideological battles. School history is being replaced with "History and Present", where the "Present" is literally recounting how amazing the current government is. Public funds are being raided for political points.

Meanwhile, Finland seems calm and collected. For its 2018 100th anniversary of independence, they built a huge library, and IIRC sent every child a book. Poland founded an enormous museum to its own awesomeness, somewhere in the middle of nowhere (so it can be grand enough), and hasn't finished it still in December 2021.

divbzero6• 5 years ago

Finnbin [1] is a company that sold Finnish style baby boxes in the US up until July 2021. Oddly enough, they appear to have suspended operations due to a US Consumer Product Safety Commission ruling that effectively bans baby boxes.

[1] https://www.finnbin.com/

[2] https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operatio...

stevehawk• 5 years ago

It appears that the CPSC in the US has decided that it's safer for babies to sleep in objects that can be tipped over (must have legs) than in a box on the ground.

sgerenser• 5 years ago

I’m sure the issue is actually that most people don’t want it on the ground, they want it up higher where it’s easier to see, change, and interact with the baby. So people were probably placing the box onto tables, shelves, etc. where the risk of it falling off were deemed too high.

systemBuilder3• 5 years ago

CPSC has always been a way to get your chief competitor's products banned! Good old fashioned American corruption!

leobg• 5 years ago

I actually built an Aircrib, B.F. Skinner style. Basically, a wooden baby box on wheels, raised to eye level, and with heat and humidity control.

leokennis• 5 years ago

On the same subject, I only recently came to know that "Kraamzorg" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraamzorg) is not or hardly offered in other countries.

When you become parents (whether that is for the first or the nth time), a specialized nurse will visit your home for 24-80 hours spread over multiple days to help with anything required. If it's your first, she/he will mainly focus on teaching (how to bathe a baby, how to give breastfeeding etc.). If it's your second or more, the focus will be more on keeping the house tidy (vacuuming, cleaning up) and helping with the older kids (getting them from school etc.). And all the while, the kraamzorger will keep a log of the baby (weight, temperature, how often it poops and pees etc.) to make sure it's healthy.

Seriously, I don't know how I would have handled having my first newborn without the hands-on-live-counseling kraamzorg provides.

InsomniacL• 5 years ago

Apparently in America it can cost tens of thousands of dollars to give birth in a hospital.

Also, 'skin-on-skin' contact after giving birth is a chargeable extra.

We don't know how fortunate we are here in the UK with the NHS.

zthrowaway• 5 years ago

Also, 'skin-on-skin' contact after giving birth is a chargeable extra.

Just had a kid in the US, not true. I’m curious to see where you learned this from, it seems hyperbolic.

Also, it cost me $2k after all was said and done.

mmarq• 5 years ago

I had a child relatively recently in the UK, and we had to pay for many visits and scans that anywhere else in Europe would have been free. For instance you never see a gynaecologist unless something very very bad is going on. If you want the same level of care you would receive in Italy or Germany, you end up spending 2-3K£.

Probably better than the US, but given the taxes we pay, I’d expect something more. I’d rather pay half the taxes I pay now and spend 10K£ to give birth, than paying 40K£ a year of income tax and get the level of service of a developing country.

lbreakjai• 5 years ago

We had our first baby in June. We're expats, without any family around. Kraamzorg was a godsent. The nurse turned what's been a chaotic and frightening time for all of my acquaintances back home, into a blissful week.

We'd take a long nap every afternoon, and wake up to a fresh bowl of fruit salad. We had such a peace of mind to know that we were being supervised and taught by a pro, and that we therefore could do no wrong.

We were a bit skeptical about the Dutch system at first, but I really grew fond of their approach.

saiya-jin• 5 years ago

It is very much a standard post natal package in Switzerland, and in France too IIRC. We had tons of visits for the first one, quite helpful, spread over longer period. Only 1-2 for second one, but it could be more if needed. The only difference is that they don't do cleaning, at least ours didn't.

They are called "sage-femme" in french (wise woman in literal translation). Most od advices were nothing new to my wife since she is a doctor, but even for her sometimes best practices brought something new and more efficient/safe. And of course regular basic checks on the baby are helpful without the need to visit doctor.

We never paid anything extra, covered by health insurance.

prmoustache• 5 years ago

Have had 2 kids in the last decade in Switzerland and we only had a visit or two and it was mostly about providing councelling, not helping you in your daily task as a proper kraamzorgster.

Keep in mind that these kinds of systems are not necessarily compatible with some cultures/usages. My gf has a friend who is leaving in the Netherlands and was getting crazy about having that krammzorgster around in the house all day long while her mother was already here for a few months. It looked like it isn't even optionnal and they couldn't just tell her to go elsewhere. They are mexicans.

8fingerlouie• 5 years ago

It's divided into two parts in Denmark, After birth of the first child, you're offered to stay at the hospital for a few days (unspecified duration, depending on issues being faced) to get help with getting breastfeeding going, diapers, and monitoring the babys health.

After you get home, a nurse will schedule regular (weekly at first, then gradually longer between) visits to weigh/measure the child and record if the baby appears to be developing correctly, and provide advice in matters concerning childcare. This goes on for the first year.

noodlesUK• 5 years ago

I would not exist if my mother had been in the US or another location with private healthcare when she was pregnant with me. She had a tough pregnancy and had to take a significant amount of time off work and was on bedrest for approximately 3 months. During those ~3 months, she had a medical professional come to her home every day (her midwife and doctor alternated days). This would simply not be possible if healthcare were not free at the point of care as it is in the UK and many other countries. I don’t know much about the postnatal care, and I know things have gotten worse in the UK over the past decades, but I’m eternally grateful to the prenatal care that the NHS provided.

Notanothertoo• 5 years ago

This is not entirely unique situation. There is insurance for all of the above. It's just not everyone has access to it, but I'd wager if you don't then you like shouldn't be having kids.

cjrp• 5 years ago

Sounds sort of similar to a doula here in the UK, but they're not very common in my experience.

shard• 5 years ago

In Korea there are birthcare centers where mothers can go for two weeks to a month to rest and recuperate after delivering a baby, and nurses will care for the baby and teach the mothers how to care for the baby. Of course food, laundry etc are taken care of by the centers. Hospitals offer that service as well, but bed spaces are typically more limited in hospitals.

Fnoord• 5 years ago

Its fantastic, indeed. But you need to insure yourself if you want the costs to be reimbursed, and its never free to insure yourself outside the basisverzekering (basic insurance package, the mandatory default which has become less and less over the years). Our first one was due in February, second in September. Both came roughly on time. But you start your insurance package in December (before new year) so for second we had to pay ourselves cause was conceived in January, while first one was 7 months in so a very easy choice.

bigbassroller• 5 years ago

They had this in SF via The Baby Box Co, but sadly they seem to be no longer around. It was nice having a nice colorful happy box to keep new born in. Here is an article about what it was https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/baby-box-co-launche...

kristofferR• 5 years ago

Baby boxes are apparently going to be banned in the US Summer 2022 because they don't have legs.

https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operatio...

systemBuilder3• 5 years ago

If I am reading the graph of infant mortality in Finland correctly their rate is 2 per thousand children and the USA rate is 6deaths per 1000! Maybe we should write to Biden and get cpsc crooked rules revoked and start giving out baby boxes?

Medical Xpress: U.S. infant mortality reached historic low in 2019. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-12-infant-mortality-hist...

mattlondon• 5 years ago

We paid for a Finnish style box here in the UK. Baby fairly rapidly outgrew it with 3 months or so, but not before he started to wake us up by hitting his arms on the side and making a thumping noise.

We were warned by some pros to make sure to monitor the temperature closely - don't leave it on the floor where it might be too cold, and allow air to circulate to avoid it getting too hot etc. We bought a cheap Ikea side-table that was approx the same size and built a basic barrier around the edge by screwing in some shelf supports to the side-table (as well as some up-stands on the table surface to allow air to circulate) so that it was basically like any other bassinet thing you can buy. Price-wise we probably mad a loss compared to just buying something prebuilt, but I think my wife quite liked me "building a bed for baby".

The box is now used as a toy box! We'll certainly get another one for the next baby.

Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes (2013)

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