Netherlands judge rules Samsung Galaxy S, S II violate Apple patents, bans sales

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/netherlands-judge-rules-that-samsung-galaxy-s-s-ii-violate-appl/

by bond • 15 years ago

171 135 15 years ago

davedx• 15 years ago

Original FOSS article: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/dutch-court-orders-e...

That article makes the interesting point (which I'll repeat here for those who can't be bothered to read it) that Samsung logistics use the Netherlands as a hub for Europe.

While the ban doesn't stretch across Europe, they would have to change that to get devices into other European countries.

bond• 15 years ago

I think that if they don't generate the sales from that hub and only from the subsidiaries on each country then they can still use it...

jwn• 15 years ago

Can anyone speculate on the likelyhood of Apple getting such a ban enacted in the US? If it looks impending I want to order one before it happens.

microtonal• 15 years ago

Given that the ban starts only on October 13 and Android 3.0 does not violate the relevant patents (according to Dutch news sites). Couldn't Samsung just update the firmware in the meanwhile to change the behavior of touch-based photo browsing to whatever Android 3.0 uses?

Edit: according to the judgment summary the Galaxy Tab does not violate said patents.

pieter• 15 years ago

Yes, this is exactly what they're going to do. They've already said they'll update the firmware before the deadline to remove the scrolling behavior, so their phones won't get taken out of the stores.

[1] Dutch: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76361/samsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-...

[2] Translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...

CWIZO• 15 years ago

As ridiculous as this is, I hope that this at least means we'll get the 3.0 update sooner to our SGSII phones ...

MicahNance• 15 years ago

Based on how long they took to upgrade the Galaxy S (Captivate) to 2.2, no. That may have been mostly due to AT&T's involvement, though.

epaga2• 15 years ago

Seems like the violations are software-only (slide to unlock for example), so an Android update by October 13 should solve their problem...or am I missing something?

bonzoesc• 15 years ago

Do you think Samsung could get an update out in under two months?

Kylekramer• 15 years ago

In most circumstances, no. When the motivation is update or have your products removed from stores, I'd think you'd be surprised how quick Samsung can be.

epaga2• 15 years ago

actually, yes! see pieter's remark up top and this (translated) article where their lawyer says they'll do just that:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...

syjer3• 15 years ago

If it's only the gallery that need an update, they could push it through the market I think.

iamdave2• 15 years ago

Maybe.

Seeing how much difficulty they had supporting the 1st Generation Galaxy and updating the device in a timely manner, probably not.

syjer3• 15 years ago

What I don't understand is, if EU don't have software patents, how that ruling is even possible ?

yardie• 15 years ago

They have design patents, which are even more insidious. These were added in 2003 and didn't get much interest accept from the big fashion houses trying to stop counterfeits from entering their territory.

As you can see the law has been widely spun out of it's original scope to include all types of things design related.

masklinn• 15 years ago

Slide to unlock was not found to be a violation.

pkandathil• 15 years ago

There were the violations by Samsung of the Apple patent:

EP 2,058,868 - method of scrolling / browsing gallery;

EP 2098948 - recording a "flag" in connection with multiple screen taps, of which Samsung would use the system by using Android 2.3 or later version;

EP 1,964,022 - method of "unlocking" of a portable device through the touch screen an "unlock image" in a way to drag.

Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move.

wgx2• 15 years ago

>Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move.

But they did invent the "Swipe to Unlock" interaction did they not?

Previous to that it was always a clunky button combination (Menu + * on the old Nokia handsets) and this is an elegant alternative.

Why can't other manufacturers come up with a new, novel unlock method like Apple did?

kayoone2• 15 years ago

Yeah Apple invented it, i give them that. But do they need to patent it and sue manufactures of other smartphones that use the same technique ? Sadly, Apple became the new MS years ago..

jsvaughan• 15 years ago

the "interaction" is a virtual representation of a sliding lock. apple did not invent the sliding lock.

martingordon• 15 years ago

The post says that Samsung was found guilty of violating 2,058,868, not the other two, and that 1,964,022 was rules to be null and void and Apple can no longer make claims in the Netherlands based on that patent.

metachris• 15 years ago

That's pretty incorrect. The judge did find that Samsung only violated EP 2,058,868 - method of scrolling / browsing gallery, but not the other two. In fact EP 1,964,022 was declared null and void, meaning "Apple can no longer make claims in the Netherlands based on this patent".

sjs4• 15 years ago

Yeah, it is a dick move. At the same time if it moves the whole industry forward then it's good for us as well. Mixed feelings.

Do you remember how we unlocked phones before the iPhone? On Nokia phones it was Menu, * which was great but my mom never remembered to use it and was always pocket-calling me. I promise you that problem has not occurred since she got an iPhone. The first time I saw slide to unlock I was amazed, yes over such a small thing. And it's a great example of why I like Apple's products. They take the time to find good solutions to common, everyday problems.

Now everyone uses slide to unlock. I like competition as much as the next guy but it's hard to see how most of Apple's competition is not riding on their coattails with Android. We all know what Android was going to be prior to the iPhone's release, a BlackBerry wannabe.

Microsoft is notably not just copying Apple. HP/Palm also. Mostly just the Android OEMs who seem to wish Android were iOS.

icebraining3• 15 years ago

Nokia did have slide to unlock way before the iPhone: http://netdna.webdesignerdepot.com/uploads/cellphone_design/...

This is a clear case of adding "...on a computer" like that was some great revolutionary advance. It isn't. It's the obvious translation of an existing concept.

WalterBright• 15 years ago

My ancient Dell laptop has a "slide to unlock" mechanical catch on it, and seen such catches on old storage boxes, etc. I fail to see how making a soft analog of it constitutes non-obvious innovation.

mcantelon2• 15 years ago

>I like competition as much as the next guy but it's hard to see how most of Apple's competition is not riding on their coattails with Android.

You don't see movie producers suing eachother for incorporating eachother's plot devices... it's ridiculous. If someone is incorporating design elements with intent to confuse the consumer, or incorporating complex design elements, then I am prepared to entertain the validity of legal action.

kayoone2• 15 years ago

This is so ridiculous. I cant decide between a S2 and a Iphone 5 anyway but this makes me lean heavily towards the Samsung device. Patenting the way to unlock a phone via dragging an image ? God, i need to puke.

chaostheory• 15 years ago

Yeah I'm part of the Apple cult, but if Apple keeps this legal circus up, as much as I'd hate to, I'm probably going to leave it.

re_todd• 15 years ago

I've never bought Apple, but I've recommended them to non-tech friends and family that sought my advice. From now on, no more recommendations from me.

wladimir2• 15 years ago

This is indeed ridiculous.

I've always been pretty neutral towards Apple but I this is just appalling. Seemingly they cannot compete with Android in the normal way so they try the patent troll angle. I hope this backfires on them big time.

I don't want to live in Apple's locked-down walled garden.

mhd• 15 years ago

Hardly surprising[1]. And I don't think this will make a big splash against them. The public doesn't care and Apple fanboys will be Apple fanboys. I expect some apologetics any moment on Daring Fireball any moment now…

NB: I'm typing this on a Mac. I really like the OS and the desktop/laptop systems, but since they've become the big mobile player, there's not a lot of progress in those fields and they're getting increasingly litigious. Time to install Arch on some spare machine again…

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso...

monochromatic• 15 years ago

This is not what "patent troll" means. Apple is not a non-practicing entity.

tjogin3• 15 years ago

Apple can't compete with Android? That's your conclusion? Maybe you should revisit that thought, I mean considering the mountain of evidence (money) to the contrary?

white_devil• 15 years ago

Seemingly they cannot compete with Android in the normal way so they try the patent troll angle.

Ah yes, it's overwhelmingly obvious that Apple is the underdog in the mobile phone space! They've never been able to compete on their own, and that's why they resort to such tactics.

Look, everyone is suing everyone in utterly ridiculous greed/patent-lawsuits: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/whos-suing-whom-i...

It's just the way the sad, sad game is played.

SoftwareMaven3• 15 years ago

Just remember Apple is being sued as much as it's suing. Yes, it is disgusting business practice across the industry, but nobody is immune and nobody is pure. Apple gets the most air time because they are Apple.

Take some of your anger and let your representatives know how sick the patent system is. Then do it again and again. We need to get the message to them!

EDIT: Yes, this case is Europe, but if America became more intelligent with patents, Europe, who already is more intelligent, would likely follow.

KirinDave2• 15 years ago

> Just remember Apple is being sued as much as it's suing.

That doesn't make it acceptable. I'm tired of making excuses for Apple, personally. I like their products, but they've worn my goodwill towards their brand down to a nub by being one of the most ruthless and (in my opinion) unethical brandishers of patents worldwide.

mcantelon2• 15 years ago

>Just remember Apple is being sued as much as it's suing. Yes, it is disgusting business practice across the industry, but nobody is immune and nobody is pure. Apple gets the most air time because they are Apple.

Samsung didn't sue Apple until Apple sued them. This kind of "everybody's doing it" thing doesn't quite wash. Google, for example, isn't playing this cheap game.

ZeroGravitas2• 15 years ago

There's a difference between suing and counter-suing. Apple is clearly a patent aggressor in this arena. The system is clearly broken, but Apple is rich and powerful enough to be able to choose whether to get involved and can be held accountable for those decisions.

guelo• 15 years ago

That is a very disingenuous thing to say. Apple sued HTC, Samsung and Motorola. The only lawsuits against Apple are the countersuits in the cases that Apple started.

There is plenty of reason to be mad primarily at Apple.

chc2• 15 years ago

Most of the suits against Apple are defensive. Apple was definitely the aggressor in this battle.

wtallis• 15 years ago

If this litigation influences you against Apple and in favor of Samsung, then you must either think that Samsung is a more ethical company, or you are holding Apple to a higher standard. I think you'll find that neither position can be logically justified.

SnowLprd4• 15 years ago

From an ethical perspective, I find Samsung's inability to innovate and subsequent willingness to carbon-copy the iPhone and iPad to be reprehensible and wrong. It's sad that Samsung seemingly can't come up with much original on their own.

From the perspective of fostering general innovation in the marketplace and increasing the greater good, software and design patents need to go bye-bye. Apple's just playing the game according to the current rules, and the current rules really need to change.

hessenwolf5• 15 years ago

I find my Samsung Galaxy S really different to the iphones I have tried, and to have a similarity to the samsung netbook I have kicking around at home. These patent infringements seem absurdly minor to me.

nodata2• 15 years ago

My G2 has a back button, a home button and an options button below the screen which takes up most of the device. An iPhone doesn't.

The battery is user replaceable. I can plug in an sd card. On an iPhone I can't.

On the G2 I can switch between recent applications by holding the home button. I can access the contents of my phone by using a web browser. I can sync without iTunes.

Doesn't sound like a carbon copy to me.

evilduck4• 15 years ago

Samsung didn't invent any of that.

Roritharr2• 15 years ago

This is simply untrue. The Galaxy S2 is much more feature-rich than any iPhone to Date. The Voice Control and Speech-To-Text Functions are outstanding. The HDMI Output via MHL Port is useful, i've used it as a backup for holding a presentation once now and was glad that it was possible... there are so much features i love about this device that i can't fathom why someone would say that Samsung isn't innovating...

SnowLprd4• 15 years ago

Did Samsung add voice control and speech-to-text functions, or is that part of the Android OS that Google provides Samsung for free?

While I don't have any need for HDMI output on my phone, I applaud Samsung's efforts to add differentiating features. That said, adding an HDMI port falls short of the type of innovation to which I referred in my original comment.

Look at the following photo and tell me that Samsung didn't completely rip off the iPhone's look and feel, right down to the icon layout:

http://www.gadgetfolder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Samsu...

Samsung had an opportunity to innovate in a way that would make the Galaxy S2 look and feel nothing like an iPhone and instead look and feel like a new, innovative product. They clearly didn't do that.

Comments like "My G2 has a back button unlike the iPhone" or "But the icons have square corners instead of rounded corners!!", in my opinion, completely miss the point. I'm not claiming that Samsung copies Apple's products down to the last molecule/pixel, nor do I believe that Samsung is incapable of adding ports/buttons that Apple chooses to omit.

The point is that Samsung is clearly trying their hardest to make their products look very similar to Apple's products. I personally believe Samsung should try to imbue their products with their own brand design/identity.

stewbrew• 15 years ago

It could be a consequence of actually building a third of the iphone. (I know the above statement isn't exact.)

Jun87• 15 years ago

I think this will be a minority report but:

Although I hate Apple's heavy-handed approach to this, I also like the message that this sends to Asian companies, who have quite a cavalier approach when it comes to "borrowing & adapting" the designs and innovations from others. The list is long and is by no means limited to Apple: Routers from Cisco, phone designs from Motorola, etc. etc.

It may be impossible to properly enforce copyright and trademarks in China and other neighbors but at least this shows that Europe may be a different battle ground.

guywithabike• 15 years ago

I'd love to hear from people who are downvoting you. Why are they downvoting you?

Jun87• 15 years ago

I've been on HN for some time and haven't formed a good theory about downvoting behavior here. I think in this particular case people are so anti-{apple, software patents} that they automatically resist looking at it from another angle. Same usually happens when you mention FB in a positive light on HN.

EDIT: As I've said in my comment, this doesn't mean that I think Apple's ruthless approach to patents and its draconian methods of platform control are good things. It's just that the other guys do have a copy and paste problem. Maybe not in this case, but generally definitely they do.

cageface2• 15 years ago

I almost never downvote, and didn't in this case, but I don't think this is sending the right message. Android is not a copy and adds more than enough of its own twists and innovations to justify its existence. If anything losing on trivial patents like this this is going to send the message to Asian companies that the Western markets are stacked against them no matter what they do.

jeffool2• 15 years ago

This is about Samsung using Google's software and getting sued for it. How is that "teaching the East a lesson"? That's framing it as some cultural pudding match that makes no sense to most HN readers (or else he'd have a positive ranking.)

Add in the fact that most people here think software patents have serious problems, at the least... And it's pretty easy to see why it was down-voted to me.

nkassis2• 15 years ago

This to me feels different than fake cisco gear. In the case of the fake cisco gear they are built to look and pass for cicso gear even running stolen copies of cisco catalyst and IOS software. Samsung isn't claiming their phone is an iPhone. You can tell they are different and the OS looks different. Customers are not getting fooled into buying Samsung phone thinking it's a real iPhone.

Jun87• 15 years ago

I was referring to not selling fake Cisco gear but the theft of Cisco router code and using it on Huawei's routers. According to some estimates 40% of the code on those routers were Cisco's. This was a famous case and everybody knew about it but Cisco couldn't do anything!

wmf• 15 years ago

BTW, in this case it looks like Google (you know, from California) is doing the copying. Samsung is just shipping it.

Jun87• 15 years ago

In this very particular case you're right, as far as I understand the situation the infringing Gallery app is a standard Android app.

However, why did Apple focus on Samsung? Yes they are #2, but could it also be how the original looked imitated an iPhone, e.g. http://www.edibleapple.com/did-samsung-make-last-minute-desi...? Compare these looks with a aMotorola Droid 3.

goombastic• 15 years ago

Companies should make phones completely without an OS and allow people to load them up with the OS of their choice. Something like Cyanogenmod on a blank phone would be awesome.

hessenwolf5• 15 years ago

I'd pay extra not to have to bother spending 8 weeks compiling gentoo.

sukuriant• 15 years ago

Why the downvote. He has a point. Preinstalled operating systems are incredibly convenient, something the average user doesn't want to have to do.

krelian• 15 years ago

If there is any chance that this will lead to some people in power realizing the ridiculousness of it all then it was all worth it.

Astrohacker• 15 years ago

Patent laws should be ignored. Run your company pseudonymously, and violate patents all you want. No one will be able to stop you.

kenyan_komu• 15 years ago

Guess what I just invented a new way of opening my kitchen door, just press it with your butt. Now I'm going sue the remaining of you 5, 999, 999, 999 humans. Seriously though they say that the thing with th gallery is the default in android 2.3. So it is more like they are suing google? Its it time google sued someone for violating the mobile phone patent they acquired from motorola? they can do it in a small country like Nicaragua, u know, just to send a msg of intent

yaix• 15 years ago

What's with the headline?

Samsung does not violate Apple patents, it just violates one patent.

And sales are not banned, they are just to be banned (in more than a month's time), if Samsung does not make changes.

But it made me click through, which is probably what all those inaccuracies had been introduced for.

biot• 15 years ago

Headlines are written for brevity and to get you to read the article. However, you'll note the corrections made to the article indicate the original version said that Samsung violated other Apple patents and that the ban was immediate. Only once the Dutch was properly translated did the corrections render the headline a bit off.

jonknee• 15 years ago

... Because it was multiple patents. And because a ban was indeed made (with a fairly standard delay enabling them to change the product).

iamdave2• 15 years ago

So does anyone know if Samsung's decision to bring Cyanogenmod aboard was prompted by the events leading up to this? Any links/reading/conjecture on the matter?

IsaacL• 15 years ago

International law is something I'm trying to improve my knowledge of. Can someone explain why it is that a judge in the Netherlands can block the sales of the Samsung Galaxy throughout Europe?

mechnik2• 15 years ago

The Netherlands is the Dutch uncle of Europe so naturally they are taken seriously throughout the continent. Kidding aside, I believe since the NL is part of the European Union the judicial rulings passed there apply to the other countries-members of the E.U..

ConstantineXVI• 15 years ago

I'm not clear on if there's any direct effect on the rest of the EU from this ruling, however the Netherlands happens to be Samsung's primary hub in the EU. So even if the ban has no legal weight in other countries, Samsung would need to re-route their supply chain through another country to continue bringing their phones into the rest of the EU.

ugh• 15 years ago

Because “European Union” is not just a name.

(At its core the EU is all about creating a common market. Harmonized patent law and enforcement is obviously a big part of that.)

speleding• 15 years ago

All the stuff shipped into Europe by Samsung (and by many other companies) goes through the Netherlands. If you ban import into the Netherlands you would need to route around it. Setting up an entire operation in another country is hard enough to make it unprofitable to do for a few models.

The Netherlands has Europe's largest port (Rotterdam) owing to its lucky geographic position at the end of the Rhine and Meuse, two of the largest rivers. Since transportation by boat is several times cheaper than rail or truck this has caused most logistics companies to set up shop there.

reddit_clone2• 15 years ago

Didn't apple do a blatant rip off of Android notification center concept?

I didn't see any outrage from Apple fanboys then.

cheald• 15 years ago

Well, you see, Apple never steals ideas, they just invent them out of chronological order sometimes. </snark>

Netherlands judge rules Samsung Galaxy S, S II violate Apple patents, bans sales

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