Oculess – Removes account requirements and telemetry from Oculus Quest devices

by detaro • 5 years ago

816 382 5 years ago

onkoe3• 5 years ago

This kinda breaks online and also kneecaps some offline apps. Still, if your Quest is just your portal to Virtual Desktop, you'll find this very useful as it removes the worst parts of the Quest as a wireless PCVR headset. Good luck!

lapetitejort• 5 years ago

Do you know by chance what breaks? For example, would immersed [0] still work, or tethered Steam VR?

[0] https://immersed.com/

onkoe3• 5 years ago

Sadly, I'm just a secondary source as someone who uses Linux full-time (and thus can't use Virtual Desktop). I'll ask my friend who did this and get back to you if he has any information.

spurgu6• 5 years ago

I don't know either, but from the description it doesn't sound too good:

What doesn’t work?
Most apps downloaded through the Oculus Store because of entitlement errors (including Virtual Desktop :/)

I would assume Immersed uses this.

Disclaimer: Considering getting a Quest 2 just for Immersed.

mattowen_uk• 5 years ago

According to the instructions it also prevents you from using Virtual Desktop.

What Doesn't Work?

Most apps downloaded through the Oculus Store because of entitlement errors (including Virtual Desktop :/ )

sleepybrett2• 5 years ago

uh virtual desktop is available on steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/382110/Virtual_Desktop/

joshspankit3• 5 years ago

Presumably you can side-load Virtual Desktop after

fartcannon• 5 years ago

Stuff like this is great fun, but if we just don't buy things from known bad actors in the first place, we can save ourselves the trouble of playing whack-a-mole.

Mountain_Skies• 5 years ago

Agree in general but if the hardware is subsidized and you're able to excise the bad actor's trash from the device, you come out ahead and the company loses a bit.

ziml772• 5 years ago

But it would be much better to support a company that isn't horrible over costing the evil company an amount of money they won't even notice.

dylan60413• 5 years ago

This is similar to iOS or Android. You can stand on your soapbox and preach to the choir, but at the end of the day there is only so many choices.

I like this solution because you still get to use the hardware and use the apps, but it denies the overlords of the thing they want the most.

kova122• 5 years ago

There's GrapheneOS

marticode• 5 years ago

This is not quite similar because there are VR headsets from several manufacturers that don't come with a mandatory social network login attached. (in fact FB is the only one that does)

Even with Android vs iOS, they aren't quite the same because Android clearly gives you more control and freedom as a consumer. If you care about any of this at least don't buy the worse offender.

diskzero• 5 years ago

I agree with you and I would really like to buy VR hardware from a good actor, but they are few and far between. This is great for now for rescuing hardware that might be going straight to the landfill or for those who finally understand the implication of buying the hardware in the first place.

slim2• 5 years ago

What if bad actor took your family and friends as hostages and made them beg you to join them.

makeitdouble4• 5 years ago

This would be great if there was any hope to see a better actor coming in. Currently buying a Quest 2 equivalent from a "good" actor is just thought exercise.

Looking at Vive, they don't seem ready to enter the regular consumer market anytime soon. Google and Samsung threw the towel long ago. I'm not sure Microsoft could be a better actor than Facebook if they wanted to (remember it all came down on us way after the devices were sold).

Then chances are Facebook would also kill any incoming competitor in the egg.

HWR_146• 5 years ago

I'm not sure Microsoft could be a better actor than Facebook if they wanted to (remember it all came down on us way after the devices were sold).

Huh?

zucker42• 5 years ago

There is a good guy in the space already it's Valve. The Index was good, and there are rumors that they are developing their own standalone VR headset (search "Deckard") which would theoretically compete directly with Quest 2.

system22• 5 years ago

Why not HTC Vive though? Better development, better privacy, more game support.

dylan60413• 5 years ago

Don't take away the satisfaction this dev received from accomplishing a big FUCK YOU to the Zuck by releasing this. I'm sure it'll be a cat&mouse type of situation where Oculus will release an update that renders this useless, then these devs will update their end, and on it goes.

jreese• 5 years ago

Zuck doesn't think about this at all.

sneak• 5 years ago

https://youtu.be/l3kjsbmZ-g0

sgregnt6• 5 years ago

In my opinion a world is a much better place with people like Zuck.

ddalex2• 5 years ago

Zuck laughs all the way to the bank, the primary objectives of expanding the platform footprint and getting the consumer to pay for it are already achieved

412092• 5 years ago

I just saw the announcement for the new HTC Vive standalone. I'm going to wait until someone figures out a way to run games on the thing, and then I might consider dropping $600 on that setup.

It's not a great idea to buy products which require you to hack them.

dylan60413• 5 years ago

Unless your an, ahem, hacker. What site is this? Then these kinds of things make you drool at the possibilities.

lostgame6• 5 years ago

I just use Unity and create my own experiences - I don’t find the SDK limiting in any way as it is. There’s nothing I’d like to create that I can’t, beyond maybe a custom home room?

okwubodu• 5 years ago

The Quest is standalone giving it the lowest barrier to entry even without the current PC market being terrible.

LegitShady22• 5 years ago

standalone VR is pretty garbage running off a phone graphics card. The quest is only interesting where you connect to PCVR, and then its not standalone.

thebigman4335• 5 years ago

The Vive is all but irrelevant. It's specs are wildly outdated. It also doesnt have more game support, since Quest can play everything thats native to it and all the PCVR titles the Vive can.

superkuh• 5 years ago

It's specs are wildly outdated.

The original v1 release vive specs still exceed the quest and quest 2 in all ways related to hardware except maybe comfort and peripherals. Framerate, resolution, diopter adjustment, external tracking, the ability to actually use a real PC and video card without extra latency. The vive wins. And later vives and valve headsets like the index win more.

mhh__• 5 years ago

The vive may be outdated but it's still some of the best fun you can have on a PC.

I will upgrade eventually now that I can afford it but except for high res applications the vive still holds it own. The tracking is excellent to this day.

unclefishbits5• 5 years ago

Vive Pro 2 is literally the best specs on the market right now, followed by Valve Index.

Ph0X3• 5 years ago

more game support

Is that true? From my understanding, Oculus has exclusive games, as well as supporting all open games, so Oculus basically supports all Vive games + a bunch of exclusives Vive doesn't. What games do Vive support that Oculus doesn't?

filoleg2• 5 years ago

Yeah, I am not sure either. Unless there is some Vive Store (similar to Oculus Store), that doesn't seem right.

I know for a fact that on my Quest 2 I can play any games from Oculus Store (both for Quest and Rift), as well as any SteamVR games (played halfway through Half-Life:Alyx with Quest2). Wasn't aware of any Vive-exclusive SteamVR games though.

sleepybrett2• 5 years ago

I'm not sure why people are talking about the vive, the valve index is the current 'contender' as I see it.

Tajnymag• 5 years ago

Vive is far more expensive. That alone is a huge reason why Quest and Quest 2 are so popular.

cyborgx7• 5 years ago

Because their cheapest offer is double the price without including controllers?

rhacker6• 5 years ago

Facebook keeps asking Congress to make laws. How about this one:

Peripherals, including mice, monitors, keyboards, VR headsets or any other device used to process input or output from a computer, may NOT be connected to any cloud service with an account. Any such cloud connections MUST be for software updates only and software updates MUST be capable of permanent opt-out without any loss of usage.

I mean I grew up with my logitech mouse, keyboard and monitor not connected to a cloud account and I expect to die that way. Why does Facebook get to do things differently.

ipsum2• 5 years ago

How do you define a peripheral? An Oculus Quest is basically a repackaged smart phone.

rhacker6• 5 years ago

I mean I don't see why this couldn't apply cart-blanche to all computers. I don't need to sign into MS, Mac to use the computers (though I do for my mac because of corp. policy).

It has been getting harder, but fuck, why not use this opportunity to turn this shit around?

dougmwne2• 5 years ago

Great way to make Facebook drop PCVR support and allow standalone apps only. At this point, I think things are going in that direction rapidly anyway. Oculus has already shifted most of it's game development resources away from PCVR.

mmastrac2• 5 years ago

Laws can always be amended.

arsome• 5 years ago

I'm not so sure, Facebook did just invest a bunch of effort in getting AirLink working to allow wireless PC VR support and they seem to keep improving it.

thebigman4335• 5 years ago

What makes you think theyre dropping PCVR support? They just spent 3 years getting wired and wireless Link working. They clearly want to unify their products into a single hybrid standalone/pcvr lineup.

PCVR software sales are just absolutely abysmal, there is no way to make a profit on a large scale app, so theyre only going to invest in AAA content for standalone now.

Kuinox• 5 years ago

Virtual Desktop run fines and I never needed the Oculus PCVR support.

SamuelAdams• 5 years ago

Docking stations and printers too. Here’s a recent HP printer that requires an account.

https://reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/pwrgb1/buyer_beware_s...

dylan60413• 5 years ago

Thanks. I don't typically read reddit, so I had not seen this. Starting to contemplate getting a new inkjet for the home office. I now have something else to keep in mind during the researching. This plus all of the ink jet forensic marking, I'm leaning towards the extra cost for color laser instead, and definitely not an HP.

kfarr• 5 years ago

This has to apply to "smart tvs" too. Those things are out of control.

akerl_15• 5 years ago

Why is it desirable for Congress to make laws limiting how electronics manufacturers can design their electronics?

If Facebook wants to make a VR headset that requires that you upload a monthly video of you doing the chicken dance, just don’t buy their product.

Attempting to use government to make private entities build the kinds of technology you like is a pretty heavy hammer to drop on individual freedoms.

Kaze404• 5 years ago

Companies are not individuals.

rhacker6• 5 years ago

Why is it desirable for Congress

Humans are dumb and they buy it, and it sets the precedent. We have to make laws sometimes. You can barely even buy a TV without smart features now and yet everyone that knows about such features that don't want them still HAVE to buy them if they want a gd tv.

Should we just make it legal for oil companies to have no consequences for oil spills because it doesn't really affect much, we can just stop eating fish in the sea. There's still plenty of food elsewhere.

jdc• 5 years ago

How about the freedom to use your property, electronic or otherwise, as you see fit?

MereInterest• 5 years ago

Because freedom can be infringed upon by more than just the government. The market is not infallible, and must be curtailed in order to protect individual rights.

paranoidrobot• 5 years ago

just don’t buy their product.

That works in theory, but in practice when all the products from all the vendors work that way, you no longer have a choice.

Plenty of examples like that - Try buying a TV that's not a "smart" TV nowdays, you basically can't. If you want a good quality picture, then it's also coming with telemetry and in many cases advertisements, too.

loktarogar2• 5 years ago

If I spend $50,000 on a tractor that also has a cloud component that drives the tractor around for me, is it also not fair to expect that I can use that tractor just as a tractor if I don't have internet access at my farm?

It's a different story if it's eg. an Alexa device thats primary purpose is to be connected to the internet.

If a device is in a class of product that doesn't necessarily need a cloud connection/account/whatever, it shouldn't require it.

Often it's not practical to switch to a competing product. Sometimes it's not possible at all. Consumers should have rights here, and it's legislation's job to provide them, in a just society.

malermeister8• 5 years ago

Because government power is not the only power capable of suppressing individual freedoms. Corporate power is too and we need the government to keep it in check. Case in point, Facebook trying to restrict how you use hardware you own.

dmead• 5 years ago

Actually it's completely fine and pretty narrow.

Allowing tones of resources and brains to be dumped into the advertising industry is a pretty terrible use of what we usually call a "society".

ghostly_s• 5 years ago

just don't but their product

What alternatives are even available for standalone VR? Vive has something that's about 4x the price...

jtsuken• 5 years ago

It is desirable for any country to have laws that limit the ways how legal or government entities collect data.

Some of the strictest privacy laws existed in Germany for a reason, because the country new what an SS or a Stasi would do with the data once it gets its hands on it.

Some of the laxest privacy laws are in the US, the country whose businesses supplied the SS[1] and nowadays the CCP[2] with surveillance technology to facilitate genocide.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

[2]https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/us-tech-products-080...

ipaddr3• 5 years ago

Your freedom stops when you decide not to make your own oculus and use the common market. Using that market you are governed by all kind of rules like safety around food, lemon laws around purchases, laws that protect against predatory practices like bait and switch.

javajosh• 5 years ago

Because the market is imperfect. There is a profound information asymmetry between the consumer and the purveyor of high-tech products, and this asymmetry is exploited to raise the price of the product, in secret, without customer consent.

This is, of course, fraud. Why doesn't current law apply? I think it does. But courts are funny: when fraud becomes common and accepted, and people cease to recognize it as fraud, it becomes acceptable. In those cases, a new law is reasonable.

Bayart• 5 years ago

Because the natural behavioural pattern of dominant companies is single-minded resource extraction, including from the commons which the government is in charge of safeguarding. On top of it the relationship they have to private citizens is extremely asymmetric.

All-consuming capitalism isn't a public liberty, and if companies are in the mind of lowering costs by using cancer-inducing materials, slave work, corruption or indeed trading people's very identities, then it's in the purview of political institutions to intervene.

spurgu6• 5 years ago

I'm right now watching "The Billion Dollar Code" on Netflix and due to that I have an answer readily at hand: Someone needs to stand up to the big guys exerting excessive power and force[0].

[0] This phenomenom is inherent to and a natural byproduct of a free market, which is why regulation and laws are essential to keep some sort of balance.

satellite2• 5 years ago

Because different people have different expectations for a given product and some level of expertise is required to understand basic requirements which most people don't have.

For instance most people don't know what is an acceptable level for various pollutants in drinking water. As such if there was no government oversight most people would be happy drinking poluted water and the few that care wouldn't be serviced as the cost of cleaning water for a niche wouldn't make it profitable. But hopefully we have laws that dictate safe levels and vendors have to respect them.

For hardware it's the same, experts are pretty clear about the risks: at the most basic level if hardware stop to function when some server crash then the whole society becomes dependant on this and as such any outages starts to have catastrophic consequences by domino effect. On the spying activity linked to those accounts the risk is pretty clear as well: it opens people to leaks of intimate details about their life to Facebook employees and various hackers in case of failure.

So it seems clear that public safety would require making those two activities illegal.

honkycat• 5 years ago

Because this is something people purchased, and then the log-in requirements were added later.

camkego• 5 years ago

Has anyone else noticed what a large add campaign Facebook has launched featuring Millennials asking for new and re-vamped Internet regulation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kur94OyXf3U

What is this all about?

voltaireodactyl• 5 years ago

My strong suspicion is that the general plan is essentially:

- let a whistleblower (who seems intent on describing Facebook employees as smart and humanistic folks, despite those employees designing and maintaining FBs content delivery systems) make a case that Facebook needs government regulation.

- agree that such a regulatory agency should be created, and offer FBs assistance in outlining the parameters involved — because who better than the problem to design the solution?

- agency is created. Perhaps the whistleblower can even be a high level figure within it, as the face of the issue.

- Suddenly FB is no longer liable for anything because they are “adhering to government regulation”.

- Regulatory capture ensues as expected.

FOR FB this is preferable to thr other options:

1. Calls for FB to be broken up

2. Regulation that FB doesn’t have a primary role in designing.

slim2• 5 years ago

Marketing + regulatory capture. They seem pretty confident any regulation won't mandate they open their social graph to competition

batty_alex• 5 years ago

Facebook wants to be the ones in the room helping write the new regulations to make sure it works in their favor, mostly

a-dub2• 5 years ago

hmm. it doesn't seem all that different from sony or microsoft subsizing the cost of gaming consoles and then locking down what can run on them so they can recoup those costs by getting a slice of the game sales.

nor is it all that different from apple or google dumping millions and millions into ios and android os/base level platform development, software update/delivery infrastructure and proactive platform security and then recouping those costs on sales and in-app purchases through the app stores.

it's been going on since the original nintendo entertainment system with its approval process. prior to that was the atari 2600 debacle, where the platform languished and the ecosystem of software was such crap that people just sort of gave up on it.

that said, are they a form of monopoly? it certainly amortizes the costs of developing hardware and os platforms to the point that consumers are willing to buy in, but it also results in undue control over the resulting platforms. hard to say... i think it all comes down to how that control is wielded... (and without it, it's the atari 2600 all over again)

only alternatives i can think of are to regulate the platforms for fairness or force platform vendors to offer full price/off contract versions of their hardware.

a-dub2• 5 years ago

plus, shrug it seems that locked down platforms present a nice challenge for young tinkerers to break that can ultimately kindle their interests in technology.

sgregnt6• 5 years ago

If for some reason,now or in the future, I prefer my peripherals to be connected to cloud. Your law deprives me of this freedom. Just a thought.

ipaddr3• 5 years ago

There is a balance to achieve. It might be better than facebook forcing a cloud account on everyone.

3np• 5 years ago

No, it does not. It requires that they should be usable without. Why is that unreasonable?

phkahler• 5 years ago

Oculus Quest is not a peripheral, it's a standalone device. Having an app store is nice, but tying to Facebook is not needed or wanted.

reilly30002• 5 years ago

I hate to break it to you, but Logitech now runs always-on ‘Cloud Settings’ sync and telemetry software called Logi Options. It comes with a way to use a mouse across devices seamlessly (Flow) which requires low-level networking permissions and a daemon on all participating devices.

It’s not required that you have an account or even use the software, but of course they actively push all of the above and require it to use special device features.

Razer, Steelseries, and the rest do the same, and I think Razer’s account is mandatory.

I don’t like it one bit. Thankfully most of that crap doesn’t work on Linux.

Ph0X3• 5 years ago

It’s not required that you have an account or even use the software

That's the key point. The fact that some people weren't even able to use their Oculus device when FB went down for hours is insane. Imagine not being able to use your mouse or keyboard because Logitech went down.

There's a very big difference between an optional cloud system that brings convenience (settings sync) vs a required cloud system that the device cannot be used without.

From my understanding, the comment about was specifically trying to write regulation against the latter.

ziml772• 5 years ago

Razer is even worse than a mandatory account. When you connect a Razer device (including changing the port it's plugged into), Windows will try to execute the Razer software installer. It's really annoying.

mmis1000• 5 years ago

It's actually totally a scam. the setting file lies plainly in your c:/users/<username>/appdata/roaming/logishrd/logiOptions

And they are just plain xml file that are not even being encrypted.

mastax• 5 years ago

Logitech recently(?) released software plainly called "Onboard Memory Manager." In their own words:

OnBoard Memory Manager (OMM) is a utility for pro gamers to quickly configure the on-board memory profiles of compatible Logitech G mice by adjusting DPI, report rate, assignments, and by enabling the pairing/unpairing of devices. In an effort to meet the critical requirements for tournament use, OMM does not install itself, does not leave files on your drive(s), and does not access the internet. While OMM is used for on-board memory settings, additional device settings and customization are available through G HUB.

The current version is a little buggy with configuring the different DPI modes on my mouse (which I was disabling anyway), but I'm glad it exists. Thanks, pro gaming tournaments!

drdaeman• 5 years ago

Razer's account is not absolutely mandatory, there is a button for "guest mode" (note the phrasing, ha!), but it's annoying to use.

smolder3• 5 years ago

Yes, Razer's software makes login mandatory, which is why I recommend against buying them at every opportunity, and will never buy anything else from them. It's not acceptable to me to gatekeep local features with spyware.

baby• 5 years ago

I think you'll want to talk to Apple first.

lostmsu• 5 years ago

Peripheral might be complicated.

But I would like to see such a legislation for anything that is Turing-complete and sufficiently performant (e.g. can run Doom at 800x600 32bpp 60FPS).

HWR_146• 5 years ago

Why bother specifying hardware? No, thank you, I have no desire to have a cloud account for my purely offline software either.

charcircuit4• 5 years ago

If it requires a cloud account it isn't purely offline software. How else do they authenticate you?

porknubbins• 5 years ago

I agree with the spirit of the rule but that seems too restrictive to freedom to contract. I feel like there will always be a market solution for peripherals where someone is selling them unrestricted. With VR is the issue not that the business model itself is still not good so FB was kind of subsidising the Oculus? If VR were highly profitable it seems like other companies with less restrictive terms would come in.

Impossible• 5 years ago

Quest is basically a game console and not a peripheral. Even "dumb" non-standalone HMDs like Index have complex software stacks for tracking, input and rendering (compositor). HN loves the narrative of a VR device being "just" a monitor but that's really not the case. If this rule is applied to VR as it exists in 2021 (not 2013 DK1 which kind of was a 2nd monitor + HID) then it has to apply to all PCs, game consoles, smartphones, IOT devices etc. I'm not saying that legislation shouldn't happen but it does have ramifications for users and for security. On Quest you could do this, but social features and store might stop working at some point, and newer games and applications would definitely stop working, especially ones that use new features implemented in software like hand tracking.

TLDR this legislation could be fine but it would have to target Windows, Android, Steam, Playstation, Mac OS, etc and has ramifications that eventually software might just stop working. It might accelerate the push to move everything to the cloud also and make all devices dumb terminals that play video.

dTal3• 5 years ago

So, what can you do with a (de-Facebooked) one of these then?

psd1• 5 years ago

Half-Life 3

pm903• 5 years ago

Opt out of an identity system that you don't want to associate with in any way. Make it more difficult for Facebook to track you in their identity graph.

They're everywhere and its a problem. Google taught humanity that its OK to have tracking everywhere, if that's used only to enhance user experience. However, now other identity ecosystems are using that power for purposes which people may not be ok with. It should be easy to opt out of it [0].

EDIT: Apologies, I re-read your question and it appears to be a genuine one which I did not answer i.e. if doing this hampers the usage of the oculus device. I'll leave my answer up though, if anyone else is interested in this aspect of the discussion.

[0]: Facebook does appear to have an opt out page. Try going there and opting out. Just go there, please, before responding: https://www.facebook.com/ads/settings

wincy• 5 years ago

Watch an astonishing amount of extremely high quality VR pornography.

rpastuszak• 5 years ago

Did anyone have luck using EQ2 with a fake FB account? I know that my partner (who doesn't use her real name on FB) kept getting asked by FB for pictures of her ID, which I find super creepy.

I don't mind using EQ2 with telemetry off as long as my activity in it is detached from my other devices.

LegitShady22• 5 years ago

Just a reminder Oculus is a company founded on taking tech from other companies and getting away with it. Don't give them money, don't buy their devices. Getting acquired by facebook and turning the VR sets into spyware and facebook funnels just makes them worse.

If you want to be ethical get an HMD from someone other than Oculus/Facebook. I wouldn't give them a dime.

Sources:

alan yates (posting as vk2zay on reddit) said the CV1 architecture was identical to the valve room headset architecture with its own tracking implementation and its own fresnel lens system.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4klu94/oculus_becomin...

While that is generally true in this case every core feature of both the Rift and Vive HMDs are directly derived from Valve's research program. Oculus has their own CV-based tracking implementation and frensel lens design but the CV1 is otherwise a direct copy of the architecture of the 1080p Steam Sight prototype Valve lent Oculus when we installed a copy of the "Valve Room" at their headquarters. I would call Oculus the first SteamVR licensee, but history will likely record a somewhat different term for it...

---

Ben Krasnow (former valve employee who now has the youtube channel "Applied Science" https://www.youtube.com/c/AppliedScience/ which you should check out if you haven't yet) posted here on hackernews back in 2017 during the oculus lawsuit.

It fits a pattern. I was a hardware engineer at Valve during the early VR days, working mostly on Lighthouse and the internal dev headset. There were a few employees who insisted that the Valve VR group give away both hardware and software to Oculus with the hope that they would work together with Valve on VR. The tech was literally given away -- no contract, no license. After the facebook acquisition, these folks presumably received large financial incentives to join facebook, which they did. It was the most questionable thing I've seen in my whole career, and was partially caused by Valve's flat management structure and general lack of oversight. I left shortly after.

and then further down that thread

Overall, I think Valve is a good place to work, and I learned a lot from all of the incredibly smart people there. The main reason that I left was the difficulty in merging hardware development with the company's exceptionally successful business model. The hardware team was pressured to give away lots of IP that could have been licensed, with the explanation that hardware is just so worthless anyway compared to online software sales, there was no other choice. It's possible that this was a good faith gamble, however it still doesn't preclude the use of business contracts that would have protected our investment. It also isn't so great for morale to hear everyday that your years of work are going to be given away to another company, and then watch that company get acquired for $2B. This is especially the case since many employees strongly voiced concerns about just such a scenario.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13414190

Oculus was built on stolen tech taken by employees working at valve who convinced valve to give the tech away in the spirit of cooperation, and then jumped ship to facebook right away for the $$$.

Every time people post things praising John Carmack all I can think about is that he was doing the same thing from his former employer to oculus as well. No matter what he did back in the day to make video game engines amazing, his involvement in oculus is a stain on his reputation. Even if you think he was innocent in a vacuum, along with the rest of the shenanigans with oculus and valve tech I don't think it was so innocent. He took the source code he wrote for another company, sent it to himself, then he was involved in the "clean room" reimplementation? I don't believe it no matter what the courts ruled could be proven.

HWR_146• 5 years ago

with the explanation that hardware is just so worthless anyway compared to online software sales, there was no other choice.

This is especially strange since Apple makes tons of money off online software sales tied to their hardware. I believe several other companies (like all the console manufacturers in the game space that Valve is in) do to.

It's fundamentally a very bad call.

LegitShady22• 5 years ago

valve is very differently structured and has had a very tough time pivoting to hardware. We can see this obviously with steam machines where they just didn't want to get involved. Then the steam controller, steam link, and now steam deck...

they're getting there but they're not exactly there yet. I think oculus taking their research tech and turning it into a $2b acquisition and a threat to steam because of its closed garden was a big wake up call.

We'll see how they do in the future I guess.

fastball4• 5 years ago

It's not stealing if it's given to you.

pm903• 5 years ago

Not legally, sure. But it sure is quite shady.

LegitShady22• 5 years ago

In the court of law, probably, although it will depend on how much was discussed in advance with those employees of valve.

But ethically, oculus is bankrupt.

ahupp• 5 years ago

Oculus has their own CV-based tracking implementation and frensel lens design but the CV1 is otherwise a direct copy

Tracking and lenses are what make headset. I'm struggling to think of what non-trivial decisions are even left if you exclude those. Panel choice and illumination strategy I guess?

LegitShady22• 5 years ago

architecture, component choice, etc etc hard stuff that isn't obvious to a consumer.

I guess you haven't thought deeply about developing hardware

azinman2• 5 years ago

Anyone know why fitness tracking would not work after disabling telemetry? That’s very strange they’re intertwined.

If you own a quest, what’s the appeal of disabling the fb part? To me it’s the telemetry that’s most incendiary, especially as a friend at Oculus suspected people’s video is uploaded as part of data sets for training the tracking algorithms (which means the inside of my home is in FB servers… even worse if you consider some popular VR movies and their related activities…)

fomine32• 5 years ago

For me, Facebook itself is far more problem than basic telemetry (for dev purpose) for privacy.

charcircuit4• 5 years ago

especially as a friend at Oculus suspected people’s video is uploaded as part of data sets for training the tracking algorithms

How would this even be useful as part of a dataset? The official story is that Oculus created the dataset for Oculus Insight by also using OptiTrack to also track the HMD and controllers to create a ground truth of what be the actual location should be. For robustness certain Oculus employees took this setup home to capture data in various environments. Being able to test changes to your tracking algorithm and see how close you get to what it should be is clearly useful. Recording videos from random people seems much less useful.

oriel• 5 years ago

Is there an equivalent jailbreak for the other Oculus devices? I have a CV1 I would love to rehabilitate.

canada_dry• 5 years ago

Won't Oculus simply add some oculess detection code to their next developer release so that any future apps and updates to existing apps stop working all together if detected?

malermeister8• 5 years ago

And then inevitably somebody will find a way around that. It's a cat-and-mouse game as old as the concept of digital licensing - see the piracy space, where all sorts of uncrackable protections keep getting cracked

iamtheworstdev• 5 years ago

but it's a cat and mouse game to effectively disable your hardware because you can't use any of the software you want to use with it?

i feel like simply not playing is the real way to win this game. otherwise facebook still profits

polyomino• 5 years ago

This reminds me of the time that Steve Ballmer did an Q&A with Microsoft interns saying basically that he's happy everyone in China pirates Windows because then Microsoft sets the standard.

ChuckNorris897• 5 years ago

Reminds me of the time when the president of Romania told Bill Gates to his face that the Romanian IT industry has grown to where it is today thanks to everyone pirating Windows.[1]

I'm still wondering what went through Bill's head hearing that.

[1]https://www.wired.com/2007/02/romanian-presid/

mmastrac2• 5 years ago

"This will be a massive licensing stream in the future"

r00fus• 5 years ago

"World domination, one step at a time"

beezischillin• 5 years ago

I don’t really think he was worried, they sell endless amounts of licenses to the government.

In Hungary Ballmer got eggs thrown at him by an OSS activist for that exact reason in 08.

ddalex2• 5 years ago

Imagine where Romania would be if windows licencing cops would do their jobs and everyone would be forced off to Linux

ghego1• 5 years ago

Most likely, he already knew

qwerty4561272• 5 years ago

Never heard about Steve Ballmer saying this but I always believed this was (or became at some point) the plan. 100% of SOHO users pirated MS DOS, Windows and Office in Eastern Europe before broadband Internet became widely available. Then legal pressure on small business started so they began buying licenses as Windows and Office have already became the standard.

What I never understood though is why did Microsoft (or anybody else) invest in all this activation bullshit anyway. The only things working always were reasonably affordable pricing of legal copies, legal enforcement risk coming from the local police and the value of commercial support. All the software mechanisms of licensing enforcement have always been cracked and stopped no one. If I were to release commercial software I would only put a simple (no actual anti-crack protection at all) offline serial check to stop the most stupid and unmotivated people, everyone else will get a crack (which will inevitably emerge if the app actually is of any value) anyway.

Cpoll• 5 years ago

What I never understood though is why did Microsoft (or anybody else) invest in all this activation bullshit anyway.

I relate this to the adage "locks are to keep honest people honest."

Similarly, bypassing a valid license has to be just hard enough that people have time to think about what they're doing.

To push the metaphor a bit further, someone is more likely to try the credit card trick to shim a door open (type in a fake or shared serial key) than acquire lockpicking tools (download a crack).

There's probably some convenience factor there as well...

vermilingua• 5 years ago

Can anyone comment on the Quest vs Quest 2? I've heard that it's a difficult tradeoff, as the build quality of the Quest is better while the screen quality of the Quest 2 is a huge improvement.

If the plan is to use one for a monitor replacement for extended periods, which is a better choice?

bradneuberg• 5 years ago

I have both -- the Oculus Quest 2 is better on both fronts, it's lighter and the screen is better.

coolspot• 5 years ago

I don’t think you can comfortably use Q1 as monitor replacement. IMO, resolution is not enough for comfortable reading.

d3nj4l3• 5 years ago

I have a quest 2 and I don’t think it’s a great monitor replacement, especially as someone with multiple 4K screens. The resolution isn’t good enough to comfortably read for extended periods IMO.

E: out of curiosity, I pulled up immersed to browse this thread on HN and my eyes can't take it for too long.

If you do use it as a monitor replacement, here's a suggestion: make your screens small and keep them close to you. Scanning with your eyes doesn't work as well, you should be moving your head a lot more.

ChuckNorris897• 5 years ago

I have had both and although the Quest 2 has shitty lens adjustment that doesn't fit my IPD (pupillary distance) correctly, the clarity on the Quest 2, thanks to the higher resolution display and full-RGB pixel matrix vs pentile on the Quest 1, was just miles better than on the Quest 1 which had a better IPD adjustment system that fitted my eyesight. Couple this with the lower weight, more comfortable strap (I know), more powerful processor, higher refresh rate, the Quest 1 can't even hold a candle to the Quest 2.

Sold the Quest 1 immediately and kept the Quest 2.

Although I wouldn't use either as a monitor replacement for more than 30 minutes. The tech is just not there yet for eye-stranious work like reading small text like code. Best kept for entertainment and content consumption.

fastball4• 5 years ago

This guy[1] seems to like using the Quest 2 as a monitor replacement for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Previous HN discussion[2].

[1] https://blog.immersed.team/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d385

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041

krajzeg• 5 years ago

Just a heads-up from another Quest 2 user - if you're gentle, you can push the lenses in between the 3 predefined settings, and they will stay there. This helped me a lot, since my IPD is somewhere in between the middle and the wide setting.

Only 3 options is definitely a weird choice on Oculus' part (especially since the device apparently includes a potentiometer, so it actually acknowledges in-between settings!), but at least there's a workaround.

numpad04• 5 years ago

I have a multi monitor setup for no good reason[1] and for me the standard 90-100deg FOV of common binocular VR headsets didn't seem wide enough for my daily use cases.

1: bad reason: because good-enough displays are cheap! why not double down on it.

quickthrower2• 5 years ago

Cease! Desist!

arpa• 5 years ago

Fork! Streisand!

tdrdt2• 5 years ago

Looking at the source code it seems only some system flags are (un)set.

So unless you disable all updates I assume most settings will be reset after an update.

This app is more like an interface for some settings than a hack.

chinathrow• 5 years ago

This app is more like an interface for some settings than a hack.

It's also a statement.

tdrdt2• 5 years ago

Yes absolutely!

rapnie• 5 years ago

Cool work. I would like something like this to make my old Samsung Gear VR / Oculus Go usable again by removing the need to sign up to FB/Oculus.

schleck8• 5 years ago

The dev is 17 apparently

cardanome• 5 years ago

Facebook should have never been allowed to buy them. It is really annoying because there is basically no alternative to it if you want a stand alone VR headset.

dabber21• 5 years ago

There are rumours that Valve will enter the game

roguas• 5 years ago

They already did. A lot of companies entered the game, but none of them can sell headsets with such heavy losses as facebook. None of them have successful all-in-one headset which after sometime facebook has learned is the headset type that sells (not everybody has money for 2k pc).

yummypaint• 5 years ago

They make possibly the best overall VR system on the market currently, and it has been the best on the market for almost 2 years now. I've used the quest also, and there is no substitute for the processing power of an actual computer, not to mention ease of future upgrades via the pc.

gremIin• 5 years ago

History will not look kindly at our stupidity for allowing the creators of Pervy Stalker App to buy up the only good VR tech.

snvzz3• 5 years ago

They do not have a "stand alone VR headset".

It's tied to the FB cloud. Not standalone AT ALL.

SimpleMinds• 5 years ago

There are some good news on this front. Recently, ByteDance (owner of TikTok) acquired Pico, Chinese Occulus-style headset. I have their hardware and it's not on the same level as Quest - yet - but getting close. They also have a couple of great solution that Quest was lacking: balancer in the back, eye tracking in newer headsets. I hope now that they have bigger cash stacks, they can spearhead a competition race.

(it also makes sense, as Quest doesn't work in CN due to blocked FB)

hobo_mark• 5 years ago

How is ByteDance-controlled ecosystem a lesser evil than a Facebook-controlled one?

unclefishbits5• 5 years ago

HTC Vive, Vive Pro 2 are stellar and fun. I use it with Steam. VP2 is basically market leader right now. The Valve Index is also wonderful.

tristor• 5 years ago

I've been wanting to use PCVR for a long time, especially for virtual desktop scenarios, not even just for gaming. But the reality is I will never buy anything that puts money in Facebook's pocket. End of story. I really appreciate the work the developer did on this, but philosophically I see things like this that attempt to break the walled garden as a net-benefit to a bad actor (Facebook) rather than a net-benefit to consumers and users. It's actually better for the world and better for users if they have to make a hard choice about the ethics of their purchases, rather than feeling like they have an "out". So I commend the work, but Oculus is a no-go for anyone who gives any care at all about ethics for SO MANY reasons, Facebook owning it just being the largest (read the origin story for more).

lacksconfidence• 5 years ago

Lucky for you, FB doesn't care about PCVR either. They are clearly all-in on untethered consumer devices. PCVR will remain for the enthusiests with various smaller companies providing more impressive headsets than FB.

joshspankit3• 5 years ago

I mean, I very successfully did PCVR via 5Ghz wifi to the Quest 2. Alyx in full-res was gorgeous, and about 15ms of render to screen latency. I’m extremely aware of flicker and latency issues, and 95% of the experience was flawless (5% was dropped packets over wifi. It dropped to less than 1% by: hardwiring the PC, staying in the room with the router, and switching all other devices to 2.4Ghz)

Guillaume86• 5 years ago

Why do you think it's a net benefit for facebook? They probably make a loss if you buy a headset, don't buy anything on the store and un-facebook it.

Epskampie• 5 years ago

The team at facebook will be able to show bigger sales, making the next version more likely. You will count as a "oculus quest user" in steam stats etc. Developers will be more likely to support this headset. Etc etc etc. The market is still so small that network effect like these can be huge.

Facebook is selling at a loss in an attempt to destroy the competition and build another monopoly. They don't care if they don't make a profit now, as they will be able to gauge you later.

Don't buy facebook stuff.

unclefishbits5• 5 years ago

HTC Vive Pro, therefore, is a wonderful solution. It's spendy because its properly priced without marketing gimmicks like Uber, Amazon, or FB do to subsidize the price to take over the world. It's the most fun "entertainment" experience of my life.

stavros4• 5 years ago

Is that wired? The Quest has spoiled me, unfortunately, and any VR headset I buy will have to be wire-optional at least.

I don't mind it needing a PC, but I don't want to have a wire to tangle up in.

Oculess – Removes account requirements and telemetry from Oculus Quest devices

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