The secretive, semi-illicit world of WhatsApp mango importing

https://www.eater.com/22618349/pakistani-mangoes-chaunsa-anwar-ratol-buy-usa-whatsapp-shipping-supply-chain

by ryzvonusef • 5 years ago

135 91 5 years ago

ryzvonusef6• 5 years ago

Customs restrictions, high transport costs, and a short shelf life have made the world’s greatest mangoes — grown in Pakistan — difficult to come by in the U.S.

ramraj07• 5 years ago

“Worlds greatest mangoes”

“Grown in Pakistan”

[citation needed] I’ll argue South Indian grown mangoes are the tastiest (also I’m South Indian). Given the fruit likely originated there (along with its name).

jfk13• 5 years ago

No doubt this is to some extent a question of personal taste. For me, although the Chaunsa mentioned in the article is among the best, nothing beats a beautifully ripe Sindhri mango. I lived in that region for a while, and the all-too-short Sindhri season was one of the highlights of the year.

ryzvonusef6• 5 years ago

Citation: Me, a paki who has lived abroad in different countries and tasted kenyan, thai, indian and paki mangoes

might be the patriot in me, or maybe i've had access to more mangoes (both in quantity and variety), but mangoes here just taste ....orgasmic

and we don't even get the good stuff, that's exported

gadders• 5 years ago

I thought that claim might start a battle with South Asian neighbours :-)

hulitu• 5 years ago

I thought that the United Fruit Company has the "world greatest mangos". If you believe that fruits shipped half the globe are great, no comment.In europe fruits and vegetables from more than a couple of hundred kilometers are terrible. They are picked up green and get ripe in the supermarket.

krylon• 5 years ago

So it's a lot like software development, then. (SCNR)

But I agree, when I buy fruit, I usually have to let it sit for a while before it is good to eat.

ryzvonusef6• 5 years ago

export pre-processing of preishable fruits greatly affects quality IMHO; I know it's probably in my head, but I sometimes feel I can judge the lower quality in the Ethylene ripened products

petre• 5 years ago

It depends. Cherry tomatoes from Italy or Morocco are okay.

notdang• 5 years ago

That's not only in Europe. I live in Mexico, but in a huge city of millions of people. Guess what, most of the fruits and vegetables are terrible, even from the street markets.

Turns out if it's a city of millions you need an industrial scale agriculture and logistics. So yes, the fruits/vegetables are picked green and are tasteless.

To get something more tasteful I have to escape to a much smaller place.

newyankee• 5 years ago

The greatest mangoes come from Ratnagiri in India, something difficult to import to US as well

spikengineer• 5 years ago

Not a problem since the last two years - widely available but expensive. They are irradiated at BRIT, Navi Mumbai and shipped of directly to Atlanta. India now has many irradiation facilities and exports are picking up.

KarlKemp• 5 years ago

I tend to find it somewhat gauche to shill for your own country[0] in such an obvious way. It’s transparently obvious that it’s not objective, and all it does is leave an ugly impression of the speaker, the country, and, in this case, the mangos.

The fact that it happens predominantly, almost to the exclusion of other nations, with India doesn't escape anyone's notice. Three times in this thread alone, by my count.

0: based on similar comments in the past

jeswin• 5 years ago

Upvoting you, what you're saying is quite accurate and as an Indian, it's embarrassing for me.

Part of the problem is that India doesn't have too many things to brag about - so we're super sensitive about culture, food, umm fruits etc. The right wing tends to be especially loud on these matters.

vrc• 5 years ago

At the same time, mangoes in the US are not good. One out of many will have the right flavor. But in mango regions, you do have far more extreme and distinct textures and flavors. So it may not be shilling a country’s product — if you read most people are shilling their region’s mangoes that they grew up loving. This is far from shilling a country as I bet these shillers are claiming superiority over other Indian varieties as well.

eat_veggies• 5 years ago

This is such a weird comment. India is well known for its mangos, and the article is about importing them from Pakistan and India because they're so good compared to mangos from the U.S. Why shouldn't Indians share their clearly relevant experiences and opinions here? And why are you bothering to keep count?

wolfretcrap• 5 years ago

Indian mangoes also have heavy metal.

India does not have good industrial waste disposal so a lot of toxic stuff ends up in the food supply from vegetables and fruits and other produce.

Infact there was a recent study in India which provided evidence for this claim

People can shill as much as for their country as possible but please do not put others life in jeopardy to make a quick buck and fame for your country.

Also i am a farmer in india

blueblisters• 5 years ago

I would like a double-blind randomized study to verify this please.

Tepix• 5 years ago

I'm voluneering to be a tester!

capybara_2020• 5 years ago

I will fight you on that...the best ones are the Alphanso mangoes from Salem in India. The problem is they are so scarce even in Salem. So they are not as available as the Ratnagiri version.

The is a variety of mango called Sugar Baby(Direct translation), a whole different type of mango. You bite into it and suck the flesh out, and there is no cutting.

End of season Banganapalli is also fantastic. The ones, in the beginning, have a sulfuric tinge to them sometimes.

I think the west misses out a lot on mangoes. The same thing with bananas, the west has the most boring type of banana. Unfortunately, even in India, the more exotic varieties of bananas are dying out.

vishnugupta• 5 years ago

Raspuri is the greatest of them all.

keyrat• 5 years ago

Seeing this on HN, the first thing I focus on is WhatsApp. But if you read the article, this is a story that could play out on many networks in 2021; it just so happens WhatsApp is the most popular.

In my town, in the US, WhatsApp also plays a large role in civic life, commerce, rumors, etc., for better or for worse. It does feel like the medium is the message, but all the alternatives seek to more or less replicate the medium.

There is something to be said about WhatsApp being so integral to this story, but if you read the article, that's not really the story.

Anywho, we have pretty good mangoes here either way.

dendriti• 5 years ago

That's interesting. I was under the impression that Facebook filled the group chat niche in the US.

lotsofpulp3• 5 years ago

If you had any international contacts, then WhatsApp was the no brainer when it came out because it was the best cross platform messaging solution at the time. The only people who did not use WhatsApp were people who did not have international contacts (or maybe used WeChat, but I am not familiar with those social circles).

atatatat• 5 years ago

There's pockets of everything.

hollerith• 5 years ago

Facebook owns WhatsApp now, so . . .

nvusuvu• 5 years ago

From the article, it mentioned that WhatsApp lets users make free international calls. Not sure if that distinguishes it above other comms channels.

lotsofpulp3• 5 years ago

There is no “international” calling distinction when using the internet. FaceTime audio, Google Duo/allo/whatever, Skype/Teams, WeChat, and I’m sure there are plenty of other apps that let people communicate via audio.

el-salvador• 5 years ago

WhatsApp is the main method of communication in some countries.

Where I live my most recent experiences interacting with businesses after a short phone call is switching to WhatsApp. "Do you have WhatsApp in this number?".

I'm not surprised that mangos can be ordered via WhatsApp. Like a friend of mine works in a purchasing department in company, and the last two cars the company bought were negotiated via WhatsApp.

baybal22• 5 years ago

USA has a lot of non-tariff barriers, and they are applied very arbitrary. USA is very protective of its food market.

Some times it looks very silly how one country is burdened to the neck with sanitary restrictions, while its neighbour not so far away can be having none of that.

mschuster91• 5 years ago

This is not something specific to the US per se, but a commonplace thing in pest control.

For example, I'm German. Up to September 2020, we exported lots of pig parts across the world... then we got hit by a single case of an infected wild pig, and since then we can't export much outside the EU any more.

op00to• 5 years ago

It’s almost as if the risk of fruit pests is greater coming from a country that does not share a border (or hemisphere).

baybal22• 5 years ago

Well, take for example how US treats Indonesia, and Malaysia.

Sanitary restrictions are up there against one type of fruit pests, but Malaysia, being an ex-British colony, has it much easier.

cout• 5 years ago

The Asian longhorn beetle is one such pest that is thought to have come to the US through shipping containers and is one of the reasons for strict shipping regulations. I knew nothing of it until the forestry service came knocking on my door informing me of an infestation near where I live and asking permission to test my trees. I like my habitat the way it is, and I'd like it to continue to be healthy.

edge172• 5 years ago

A bunch of people are pointing out the phytosanitary concerns. For mangos coming from India, they were made legal under Bush. But the problem is the Latin American market has a strong hold on the US mango market and does not want India or others to enter it. All the fibrous [low quality] Tommy Atkins mangos come from Latin America.

USDA inspection requires the US side to place agents in the country of export to do the inspection. The US, while making it legal, never did place enough agents. My guess is this was done via lobbyists for the Latin American exporters.

Also, I should point out that before covid I was able to find boxes of Alphonso mangos at some of the local Indian grocers, albeit very expensive ($70-$80).

yitchelle• 5 years ago

Similar scenarios are being played out Durians as well in many countries, mainly due to its pungent smell. :-)

GordonS• 5 years ago

Heh, was a member of a similar group a couple of years back, but for curry leaves. There was some kind of blight going round in parts of India, and they were banned from import into the UK.

debarshri3• 5 years ago

This reminds me of the Bangapalli mango dealer of den haag. I vividly remember that day. It was really dark night with full moon. He gave me a location which was near schildersbuurt which is a shady place in hague. In reached on time, but no one was there. But the moment he arrive at the spot, out of no where there were 50 people or so just came out to collect their mangoes.

It was pretty cool experience.

One of the thing, which was really nice about that guy was if mangoes would get spoil during the travel, he wouldn't charge you money.

I remember someone told me once that importing alphonso mango was banned in netherlands because of invasive fruit flies that could come with it.

owenversteeg2• 5 years ago

Wow, that's crazy, I think I tried to buy mangoes from the same exact guy in The Hague! It didn't work out the year I tried it for whatever reason unfortunately...

_hyn3• 5 years ago

"semi-illicit"? It's flat-out illegal, not semi-illicit.

Inadvertently or not, illegal imports can bring in invasive species, like the Asian carp or even less interesting things like fruit molds that threaten native species and often spread like crazy. There's a reason why imports are regulated.

And, it's potentially a felony under the Lacey Act. That's why it's secretive. This isn't sneaking out at night after your parents grounded you.. this potentially damages entire ecosystems.

Pyramus• 5 years ago

Did you actually read the article?

Semi-Illicit here is meant as "feels illicit", not that they are. They are fully certified imports and a great part of the article describes the logistics.

edko• 5 years ago

I wonder if they are they paying the corresponding sales and income taxes.

phekunde2• 5 years ago

Few years ago I tried to import Haapoos(English name, Alphonso) mangoes in the UK from India. I was informed by the authorities that bulk import is not allowed. A person can carry mangoes in luggage while entering the UK. But bulk importing was disallowed. That was a bummer, as these mangoes are very delicious and has some fantastic aroma.

Scoundreller• 5 years ago

What’s bulk VS personal? I can eat 3 a day and they ripen at different times so… that can be a lot.

Canada has a bunch of rules for when food imports are no longer personal, but it’s clearly protectionism. I can go through hundreds of pounds of potatoes over a winter.

phekunde2• 5 years ago

For personal use means mangoes that can be carried by one person in a box, usually it is max 2 dozens. Bulk means importing multiple boxes for distribution to others.

mc322• 5 years ago

This reminds me of a couple of odd Mango stories. One, the gift of Mangoes by the Paki diplomats to chairman Mao[1] back in the '60s. It looked like the Chinese didn't fully understand the symbolism of the mango, but ran with it and turned around and made it into a worker's symbol) and the one about the Miyazaki mango[2] where some random guy offered the sapling of an expensive mango to an unsuspecting recipient who later learned it was a very valuable variety.

[1]https://www.dawn.com/news/1457496

[2]https://www.vice.com/en/article/k783gy/worlds-most-expensive...

FlyingSnake3• 5 years ago

Paki is a ethnic slur (like N word) and should not be used in civil discussions.

mc322• 5 years ago

It seems that may be the case sometimes, in some parts of the world, but not unless the speaker intends it to be -which I don't. I shall try to avoid it, out of caution. If the mod pleases, please use the correct demonym, I'm outside the edit window.

People from Pakistan use this word themselves: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28167429

intended3• 5 years ago

The title of this article is going to create a (hopefully friendly) flame war.

Also for the record, the best mangoes are categorically Alphonso.

But it goes without saying - the varieties from mango season beat the supermarket fare by astronomic margins.

debarshri3• 5 years ago

Alphonso is the best!

stronglikedan• 5 years ago

I've never had an Alphonso, but my research indicates that it is very similar to my beloved Carrie, just from different regions. So can we agree to let them share the throne?

FlyingSnake3• 5 years ago

I think this might be a coping mechanism as PK thinks they’re the inheritors of Mughal empire. But Pakistanis claim falls flat as the best mangoes in the world naturally come from the area where Mangifera Indica is native to.

Compared to the Langda, Haapus, Dashehri, Banganapalli, and countless other stellar varieties, PK has nothing to show.

ryzvonusef6• 5 years ago

jfc, can you please keep the regional elitism out of HN?

like we are in the same god damn region, mango is native to us too, we have the same cultivars as you, do you sincerely think we don't have Langras and Dusehris and what not?

mazelife2• 5 years ago

Well in the spirit of a friendly flame war, I'm going to put my stake in the ground and say that Carabao mangoes from the Philippines and specifically the Galila, Tablan, and Fresco varietals from the island of Guimaras are the best in the world. Twice I've been lucky enough to end up in Guimaras--a tiny island off the southern coast of Panay--once I ended up there during the annual Manggahan Festival just by lucky happenstance. And my god, are the mangoes amazing: perfumey, floral, intensely sweet; they're the Sauternes of mangoes.

They are quite delicate and my understanding is that almost all the exports from there end up in Japan. I've certainly never been able to find them on either coast of the US. They've somewhat spoiled me for mangoes now as everything you can get here is rather insipid by contrast.

ciguy• 5 years ago

I second this opinion. Guimaras Mangoes are simply the best. I don't know anyone who's tried them and disagrees.

lambdasquirrel• 5 years ago

Japan does have a thing going for fruit[0]... they even have a luxury fruit store[1].

[0] https://www.dw.com/en/japan-fascination-with-fruits/a-576983... [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/inside-japans-most-insane...

intended3• 5 years ago

Interesting, I've just had a massive Mango year (one of the silver linings of COVID I guess), and these are varietals I haven't seen before. I'll keep a look out for a chance to snag them.

It sounds like a rare variety to find though. Is this the case?

Alex3917• 5 years ago

Also for the record, the best mangoes are categorically Alphonso.

How do they compare with different Asimina triloba cultivars? Or just too different to even compare?

intended3• 5 years ago

Hmm, I have not heard of a paw paw before. But it looks like an interesting fruit to try!

FlyingSnake3• 5 years ago

While Paw Paw tastes great, there’s something special about Hapus. The texture and the flavours are amazing and the sweetness is just perfect. They go very well with Jack Fruit and Pineapples as well!

mint2• 5 years ago

This story makes me angry. Customs rules exist for a reason. Invasive species cause billions of dollars of damage annually and destroy ecosystems. Oh but you got to taste a rare mango so it’s okay!!

Edit: another comment mentioned it’s all legal and the title is bad. But I made it half through the very long article and it mentions illegals instances and only rare legal instance so far although I was skimming. I am still mad.

sciurus• 5 years ago

I think the title is bad and you're missing details due to skimming. The author walks through the entire process the mangoes he is purchasing go through, including irradiation at a USDA-approved facility.

divs1210• 5 years ago

Just pointing it out in case people are unaware, but anyone involved in illicit trade with Pakistan is, as a side effect, funding terrorist groups like Taliban.

weimerica• 5 years ago

but anyone involved in illicit trade with Pakistan is, as a side effect, funding terrorist groups like Taliban.

I'm not particularly educated or opinionated on the topic. With that said, why is it not possible one is simply funding criminals with monetary intent in an operation like this - does the Taliban have a strangehold on criminality throughout Pakistan?

dotted_vulcan• 5 years ago

In a similar way, any one engaged in illicit trade with India is funding terrorist groups like the RSS.

reactspa• 5 years ago

I'd be willing to bet that there's also tons of actual illegal stuff going to and fro in those mango boxes.

ryzvonusef6• 5 years ago

it's god damn mangoes, like seriously, the people growing them don't even share anything with the Taliban, not the same language or ethnic group, not the same sect, nothing in common.

edge172• 5 years ago

There is some subtlety that is being left out in the discussion here. Latin American and US producers have a huge incentive to keep others out, so even though it's legal to import in 2021 with the right inspections, importing still requires support from the USDA.

You can see the countries that dominate imports here (screenshots because USDA site is slow): https://imgur.com/a/Xkum5Kh

original USDA source: https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?programArea=fruit&top...

Worth noting, the National Mango Board, which operates under the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service oversight, lists it's roster here - https://www.mango.org/about-the-nmb/meet-the-nmb/meet-the-bo...

Going down the list, the country/region affiliations of the board members are mostly obvious and leaning in favor of Latin America. These appointments are until 2023 and have no representation for the largest mango producers - India, China, Thailand, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. - also the countries most people agree produce the best mangos in the world.

Taken as a whole, my interpretation is there's a strong lobby by Latin American and US producers keeping the USDA from supporting mango imports from non Latin American countries. In the end, competition drives quality - and until the Latin American and US producers have a need to compete, we will keep getting lower quality and fibrous mangos in the US.

whall6• 5 years ago

I’ve never had a mango from Pakistan, but I lived in Cambodia for two years and the mangoes there entirely eclipse the mangoes sold in the states. It’s just a different level.

I’m sure if someone is willing to go through that much effort to get some mangoes from Pakistan, they must be good. I’ll have to try some one day.

JamesSwift• 5 years ago

I just moved to a house in Florida that has mango trees. At least 2 varieties in fact. The 2 taste and feel so entirely different they could almost be different fruit.

Point being I'm not sure there is a way to cast a general attitude for mangos, let alone from a certain region. Its almost certainly the specific cultivars rather than the region that you don't care for.

sparrish• 5 years ago

I've eaten mangoes from China, Thailand, and Pakistan (not Cambodia). The best I've ever had was in Paraguay, South America. Brazil was a close second.

jareklupinski2• 5 years ago

i had a mango at my Pakistani friend's house when I was 8 and have been chasing that sweet, stringy, savory taste ever since

i can't understand a mango that you can slice

its gotta be soft like a marshmellow

MichaelZuo2• 5 years ago

The situation brings to mind Milton Friedman.

jareklupinski2• 5 years ago

first tomatoes, now mangoes...

is there some black market for produce from countries that don't lobby my poverty-stricken representatives?

draklor40• 5 years ago

Salem gundu and banganapalli FTW !

pierrebai• 5 years ago

People are discussing in hushed tones of mangoes at parties?

The world sure has changed.

Yes, this is a comment about what I call the New-Yorker tired long-form style of writing. Hype, hyperbole, weird mix of personal anecdotes, facts and always with a heavy syrup of cold-war-era like of under-cover midnight-meeting, world-weary, globe-trotting investigation.

IfOnlyYouKnew• 5 years ago

The main appeal of the article is that it uses the language you criticize, but applies it to a whimsical subject. It’s somewhat humorous and self-deprecating.

Your comment is similarly rich in adjectives, but lacking in all other regards.

barathr• 5 years ago

What's also not well known is that the 2006 U.S.-India nuclear deal is what opened the door to Indian mango imports:

https://georgetownvoice.com/2006/03/16/more-nukes-for-indian...

owenversteeg2• 5 years ago

Oh my god, I got into one of these mango buying groups once! I had no idea it was a worldwide phenomenon. The little group I found was in the Netherlands and, of course, conducted in a pretty shady way over Whatsapp. At some point someone was even going to charter a plane for the mangoes, but then something happened and it all fell apart at the last minute :(

[edit] apparently someone else in this thread has bought from the same sketchy Dutch mango dealer, this is hilarious.

rramadass• 5 years ago

Mangoes are the King of fruits. The best are from India and a close second are those from Thailand. When i lived in the US it was a shock to me that i could not find any good Mangoes at all. The ones imported from Latin America tasted like mud and were only used for Salsas. I could not convince my American friends that they had never tasted true Mangoes since they had had no exposure to the real thing. That any civilized being in this age of globalization could be unaware of how Mangoes really tasted blew my mind. The Agriculture Mafia in the Western countries are really denying their brethren some of nature's best bounties.

N1H1L• 5 years ago

Ohh man, how I miss the mangoes of my homeland. Nothing beats the taste of a cold Himsagar on a hot summer day.

The secretive, semi-illicit world of WhatsApp mango importing

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