Air France cancels flights as Russia withholds clearance

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/air-france-delays-two-moscow-bound-flights-over-lack-russian-permits-ria-2021-05-31/

by underscore_ku • 5 years ago

191 173 5 years ago

reuters.com

nolok• 5 years ago

Such a weird move.

I want to start by saying I'm not sure Air France should be subsidized to the level we do. Its workers rules from the 80s are just not adapted anymore and protecting them with public money against normal competition is stupid. And I don't mean when compared to oil-funded middle east airlines (which are eating everyone's lunch in europe on an unfair basis), but compared with others EU airlines. KLM is being abused to pay for Air France's bills, for exemple, that's just wrong. They tried to push into low cost workers stopped it, they tried to keep competitive with high cost workers complained, it's stupid and weird. It has giant potential but we're ruining it.

With that said, Russia trying to punch our national carrier down means they guarantee we won't let Air France hurt too much. Why would Russia try to play the economic game against a country so much richer than it is a question I can't answer. Probably because we don't depend on their oil nor gaz and since that's virtually the only thing they do they don't have any thing else than their giant airspace to get back at us ...

All of that to say: Air France stock holders are probably happy at that news.

_ph_11• 5 years ago

Not sure why you think this move is weird. Air France submitted flight plans, which didn't get clearance, so they don't fly.

Jabbles• 5 years ago

The weird part is this:

"which didn't get clearance"

not this part:

"so they don't fly"

ehnto• 5 years ago

They were saying it was weird for Russia not to give clearance.

detritus3• 5 years ago

Mmm, I have much the same misgivings about the likes of EDF being allowed to go on spending sprees in other countres - including my own, Britain - when they are mostly owned by the French state.

At the less knuckle-dragging end of the Brexit voting spectrum, stuff like this showed a clear two-tier level of behaviour in the EU and was hard to rationalise in the minds of people somewhat on the fence.

I know that I - as a Remain voter - had an on-going irritation at the situation. Samesame huge state/EU loans to the likes of Spain's Ferrovial to go on spending sprees here too.

Perhaps if we'd as a country had a bit more spine and a bit less hesitance to occasionally mangle EU rules to our favour as our continental cousins were, our industrial Brexit-supporters (Dyson et al) might not have felt they were being so unduly hard done by.

Oh well, it matters not any more.

Daishiman• 5 years ago

Perhaps if we'd as a country had a bit more spine and a bit less hesitance to occasionally mangle EU rules to our favour as our continental cousins were, our industrial Brexit-supporters (Dyson et al) might not have felt they were being so unduly hard done by.

The British finance industry made out by bandits by having the best of EU, UK and worldwide financial markets. UK kept a much tighter control of its currency than mainland EU countries, and did pressure _constantly_ to get EU rulings in its favor.

pjc502• 5 years ago

EDF being allowed to go on spending sprees in other countres - including my own, Britain

Ssh, the only way we can get Hinkley Point C built at anything like reasonable cost is if the French government bails it out! :)

The British counterpart didn't fare so well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nuclear_Fuels_Ltd

Rexxar• 5 years ago

Mmm, I have much the same misgivings about the likes of EDF being allowed to go on spending sprees in other countres - including my own, Britain - when they are mostly owned by the French state.

This was a UK political choice, this could have been manage differently by UK government.

Perhaps if we'd as a country had a bit more spine and a bit less hesitance to occasionally mangle EU rules to our favour

UK is the country that has mangle EU rules the most.

omarish• 5 years ago

Why is it unfair that middle eastern carriers are offering a better product at a lower price?

DangitBobby• 5 years ago

It's hard to compete with the next-door-neighbor kids' lemonade stand when their daddy gives them free sugar and lemons. Or something like that.

Cantinflas• 5 years ago

Price dumping paid by oil&gas profits --> bye bye competition --> monopoly (duopoly?)

Glavnokoman4• 5 years ago

Allegedly because they get subsidies from the oil states. I personally do not know if above is true. Maybe they are just more effective not having to coordinate every move with unions and not having extra costs due to some stupid political moves. Maybe both. Maybe none...

jasode• 5 years ago

Such a weird move. [...] Russia trying to punch our national carrier down

It doesn't seem weird if Russia has a history of using its valuable airspace as a geopolitical weapon. (A 10 min video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdNDYBt9e_U)

France's Macron was vocal about EU issuing sanctions against Belarus. Putin supports Belarus and in a tit-for-tat show, they denied Russia clearance to Air France flights. The motivations for economic punishments from both sides seem obvious.

JPLeRouzic• 5 years ago

Its workers rules from the 80s are just not adapted anymore

I once spoke with an Air France flight attendant on a domestic flight (Paris => Rennes) and she told me that her employment contract was governed by Irish law. She was French. I don't know if this is representative of all the flight staff status. But for me it is a bit weird that a French company, owned by the French state, employs French people under an Irish status.

chki• 5 years ago

The parent company of Air France is AirFrance-KLM which is a publicly traded company. France and the Netherlands are the largest shareholders and hold about 14 and 12 % of the stock each. So it is probably not correct to identify Air France as a company owned by the French State.

As a publicly traded company they are to some extent required to choose employment options that are financially beneficial, I would guess that's happening here.

hef19898• 5 years ago

That became quite common, also for pilots. Apparently these jobs became so sought after that non-flag carriers, RyanAir being among the main offenders apparently, have their co-pilots pay to get the flight hours to keep their license. Gone are the days of lofty, high paid airline jobs. Even gone are the days you don't have to pay for pilot training, let alone being paid as airline trainee.

baybal2• 5 years ago

Such a weird move.
I want to start by saying I'm not sure Air France should be subsidized to the level we do.

This is the point. It's pork barrel of a flag carrier being under a gunpoint. The message is "I will not let even your most overpriced, over-subsidised, bathing in cash airline to make money"

I'm not sure if the idea above makes sense to somebody in American cultural context.

hodgesrm• 5 years ago

The US had a 40 year cold war with Russia. This looks like the standard playbook. The rules regarding flights into Berlin from the West were a game.

Great power politics don't change a lot.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin_Air_Corridor

WanderPanda• 5 years ago

Probably because we don't depend on their oil nor gaz and since that's virtually the only thing they do they don't have any thing else than their giant airspace to get back at us.

I don’t want to miss my dear JetBrains products ;)

underscore_ku• 5 years ago

JetBrains is Czech

TacticalCoder• 5 years ago

US is "so much richer" than Russia. China is "so much richer" than Russia.

France is not "so much richer" than Russia. You chop 40% of France's GDP and that's the GDP of Russia. Sure that's bigger but then Russia has 2x the amount of people and... 30x the country size. 30x.

I have absolutely zero doubts that Russia is going to overtake France's GDP in a not so distant future.

Since losing the Waterloo battle France went from world's 1st superpower (debatable) to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th (in the eighties and maybe still in the nineties?), then 6th and now 7th. And the path seems pretty clear to me.

(I'm not russian btw and I don't approve what Russia is doing here but I know how "cocorico" french people can be and I wouldn't want others to be mislead so I simply present facts: chop 40% of France's GDP and you've got Russia's GDP. Russia has 2x the population and 30x the land of France)

AnimalMuppet6• 5 years ago

And what evidence do you see that the GDP of Russia is going to grow faster than that of France?

pmorici3• 5 years ago

Seems like bureaucratic symbolism. I can't imagine there are many people who want to avoid being nabbed in Belarus but would still feel comfortable traveling to Russia.

oilbagz4• 5 years ago

More like a tit-for-tat show of support for Belarus on the part of the Russians.

I saw a televised meeting between Putin and Lukashenko yesterday that ended with Lukashenko making the statement that went something like "the Bolsheviks rose to great heights, and we will match them", to which Putin chuckled, demurely. Its maybe not obvious to Westerners, but they are trying to rebuild a "Union of ex-Soviet States" in the region these days .. one by one, preparing a Bloc that can be an attractive partner to the EU, I suppose.

With these kinds of tit-for-tat responses, though, I guess its a shrewd strategy. "If we are allowed into the EU econo-bloc, such re-routes won't be necessary", seems to be the planned negotiating point ..

_ph_11• 5 years ago

First of all, I do not see any indication that Russia or Belarus tries to get closer to the EU, rather the opposite. And this kind of blocking policy increases the separation. Also, it takes really a lot to have the EU make any decision within short notice, but Lukashenko definitely managed.

pmorici3• 5 years ago

They only have control on flights in and out of Russia though so how much leverage can it really provide? All the EU airlines can just say sure we will fly over Belarus on the way to Moscow while still avoiding it on every other city pair that doesn't involve a Russian destination. That is why I say it seems largely symbolic.

jopsen3• 5 years ago

"Union of ex-Soviet States" Like: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union

Isn't that great? We're not going to allow non-democratic countries like Russia into the EU. Certainly not when they are so clearly documenting that they have zero credibility, no treaty Russia signs can be trusted. So it's probably fine that they make own club.

I mean what else would we expect them to do?

chinathrow• 5 years ago

This whole development surrounding the diversion of a Ryanair flight to Minsk is interesting as it shows clearly how two nation states are trying out to see what they can get away with.

toomuchtodo• 5 years ago

Germany should cancel Nord Stream 2. Shot across the bow of Gazprom and Russia.

haram_masala• 5 years ago

That would be much more than a shot across the bow, given how much the Russian economy and federal budget depends on gas revenues.

mschuster91• 5 years ago

Why create a billions of dollars worth investment ruin when we can also complete it and go the "stick and carrots" route? Let it sit but demand concessions from Putin. He wants to sell the gas, after all...

quonn• 5 years ago

That would likely hurt Germany (by reducing options).

beefield• 5 years ago

I think that would be a shot at the bow. A shot across the bow would be to maybe stop buying gas from Russia for a week or two during the summer. I have no clue how much that would cost, but I have started to think that it might make sense also as an supply chain disruption exercise.

JumpCrisscross2• 5 years ago

Germany should cancel Nord Stream 2. Shot across the bow of Gazprom and Russia

Unlikely to happen until Merkel is out. She has been incredibly weak when it comes to Russia.

ArkanExplorer2• 5 years ago

Former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder oversaw the shutdown of Germany's nuclear industry. He is now chairman of the Russian gas conglomerate Rosneft.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41447603

The shutdown of Germany's nukes is a result of corruption at the most senior level, and represents one of the greatest betrayals of the German people, of Europe, and of indeed the planet given the additional emissions.

If the EU is really serious about Russian and energy independence, they should be begin a mass program of nuclear power building across the bloc.

But its more likely that all of the senior European bureaucrats and politicians are corrupted at some level.

thepangolino• 5 years ago

I'm starting to wonder why Belarus didn't just shoot that plane down and blame Russian tourists or something. Would have probably caused less trouble.

jopsen3• 5 years ago

I think the response would have been more prompt, and a lot harder for people to ignore.

Tourism in Belarus would disappear instantly..

Note. when Russia* shot down a commerical jet over Ukraine, it probably was a mistake. At-least the opposite is far fetch we're willing to believe it wasn't intentional.

* We can also say pro-russian separatists, but they are probably one and the same.

matwood• 5 years ago

s/interesting/concerning. This is the type of thing that leads to wars.

pjc502• 5 years ago

I get a very strong sense that the Iron Curtain is being rebuilt. Hopefully this time further to the east.

cm2187• 5 years ago

By cancelling foreign flights to and from Moscow, I am not sure who Putin thinks he is hurting most.

postsantum2• 5 years ago

This is not an unexpected move. In Russia, we even have an established phrase that refers to the common situation of hurting own citizens under the pretext of imposing sanctions on foreign powers

WesolyKubeczek5• 5 years ago

«назло маме отморожу уши» or «импортозамещение»?

mynegation• 5 years ago

Out of curiosity - what is this phrase? "Ни себе, ни людям" - (lit: "Not for one self, not for the people"), "Собака на сене" ("Dog on the hay"), "Напугали ежа голой задницей" ("Scare the hedgehog with the bare butt") or is it something more specific to the situation?

elvis70• 5 years ago

Mirror: https://archive.is/LFfCp

Glavnokoman4• 5 years ago

"withholds" seem very misleading here. The article says they did not get the clearance for the new route which is something very different.

[edit] My bad. Said rubbish. Apparently my understanding of this word is different from the common.

ncallaway2• 5 years ago

Not giving something is withholding it. I don’t see how that’s possibly misleading, it seems like the straightforward definition of the word.

Glavnokoman4• 5 years ago

I was under impression that word is usually used in the sense of taking something back. Could be wrong though.

jacksonkmarley3• 5 years ago

What does Putin get out of this? I feel like such a strong show of support for Lukashenko on this issue (above the existing general level of support) probably has some pretty significant strings attached.

jiofih• 5 years ago

He gets to force the EU to walk back on the restrictions imposed on Belarus. Russia’s interest is to stop the EU from advancing (in any form) over Eastern Europe.

jacksonkmarley3• 5 years ago

Good point about resisting EU control of Eastern Europe, although this doesn't seem like the optimal way to do that. Maybe this is step one, then step two is to cut a deal that imposes some limits on Belarus' actions but puts Russia in the control seat of negotiations etc.

relativ575• 5 years ago

If Russia's goal is to stop Eastern Europe to become unfriendly, then they already fail, since most of countries that Russia themselves consider "unfriendly" are already in that region -- Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Czech (in addition to the US and UK)

https://estonianworld.com/security/russia-puts-estonia-on-th...

URSpider94• 5 years ago

In general, Putin seems to be willing to invest on the side of any strongman, to support their ultimate right to take any action to put down their opposition.

a-nikolaev• 5 years ago

My guess us that for the Russian citizens, Putin wants to show that: 1) Lukashenko is the good guy fighting terrorists, 2) EU politicians have mistreated Belavia Belarusian airlines, so Russia had to step in and defend their allies, 3) generally trying to show that he is more powerful than EU politicians.

In terms of actual long-term goals, I think, he aims to replace Lukashenko with a new pro-Russia president, so he tries to keep Lukashenko happy in the process (also making him more dependent on Russia internationally), and proving that the two countries are still best allies...

jacksonkmarley3• 5 years ago

Something I have zero clue about, do everyday Russians see Belarus as an ally and Lukashenko as a good guy?

pydry12• 5 years ago

This week has been win/win/win for Putin and Lukashenko. The EU cutting ties with Belarus pushes the Belarussian people further into Russia's arms. Lukashenko got to cast terror into the heart of the opposition movement.

Russia needs the countries on its European border. It is completely exposed militarily - flat lands leading all the way to its heartland routinely used by invaders. It already has two NATO countries on its border and another country (Ukraine) that has asked to join. The last thing it needs is a wall of NATO countries pressed up against its jugular.

Having Belarus on side is critical for them.

AnimalMuppet6• 5 years ago

Completely exposed to who? The US? Germany? Lithuania? Who exactly is going to take advantage of this terrain and drive an army into Russia?

Nobody, that's who.

I'll tell you what Putin's really afraid of. He's afraid of Russians figuring out that the people in the USSR who wound up aligned with the west are better off than the people who are under Putin. He's afraid of that reality creeping too close to his borders.

(Now, in fairness, it was absolutely absurd that France would invade Russia... until it happened. But if Putin wants buffers big enough to prevent that from happening, then he's going to need to control both Germany and France. There are no buffers big enough to disarm Russia's fears, unless you give them at least all of Europe. And maybe you'd have to give them the whole planet.)

_ph_11• 5 years ago

That the NATO would invade Russia is a bizarre idea. They simply have no incentive, and even if they had any interest, they are lacking the troops and Russia is a nuclear power. If it were not, the west would probably have engaged more forcefully in Ukraine, especially as they had signed contracts to do so when Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.

dontbenebby• 5 years ago

So to clarify: Belarus forced a plane to land, the French try to respect the autonomy of both, now they're banning flights?

I had half joked I wanted to take the Moscow -> Bejing train at some point , but I guess I'll reasses (my IRL contacts know how much I absolutely LOVE trains), but shit like this makes me inclined to keep spending that money on overpriced coffee or whatever.

I looked at the data[1], and Russia made ~11 billion dollars from tourism in 2015, so they must really value being petty since reading these things make them sound unwelcoming, unfriendly, and straight up antisocial.

[1] a pdf in they wayback machine cited on wikipedia https://web.archive.org/web/20150112082549/http://www.e-unwt...

onlyrealcuzzo• 5 years ago

To put things in perspective, Russia's oil and gas contributes ₽5.2T ($720B in USD) to the federal budget alone:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1028682/russia-federal-b...

CalChris• 5 years ago

And those revenues have been in steep decline.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1028682/russia-federal-b...

jabajabadu• 5 years ago

Sadly, the criminal gang that runs Russia is not interested in the economic prosperity of its citizens. They want ordinary people to stay poor and isolated since this makes them so much easier to control. They fully understand (and welcome) the consequences of their actions.

vmception• 5 years ago

Can you shed some more light on this? Russia has been an accounting game since the fall of the soviet union: underpriced shares, diverted revenue/dividend to insiders, lucrative resource or revenue generating assets sold opaquely and also underpriced

Does this end at some point? Where there are no more formerly state owned resources to pillage and convert to Euros/CHF/USD?

sandworm101• 5 years ago

The tourists that Russia cares about are not flying Air France. They come and go on their own planes.

jryle70• 5 years ago

Who are they and how much they contribute compared to millions visiting Russia every year?

yongjik• 5 years ago

I always wonder what's the endgame for Russia. In terms of national GDP, it's sitting between Canada and South Korea. Can you imagine Canada hoarding nukes and sending troops for "vacation"? I don't think Canada could afford to, even if they wanted to (which, thankfully, they don't).

...Is Russia slowly bankrupting itself by pretending to be its former self?

pydry12• 5 years ago

It's trying to protect its western border. There are no mountains there. It's flat terrain leading right up to their heartland that has been invaded multiple times throughout history. The vulnerability they feel on this border is so intense it has shaped the national psyche.

Two countries (Latvia and Estonia) have already flipped to the west (NATO members). Ukraine is torn between Russia and the west (that's what Maidan morphed into after starting off as an anti corruption protest). Lukashenko was engaged in a struggle with pro western opponents.

There's a proxy war going on on its borders. I don't think this is about Russia trying to dominate the world. I think it's about Russia wanting to buffer its most exposed border.

If Western Canada joined in an alliance with Russia and Eastern Canada was run by a pro American dictator do you think America would behave differently?

ArtemZ• 5 years ago

Russian wages are MUCH lower than they are in Canada or South Korea. Average salary is something like ~500 USD per month, while in Canada it is closer to 5000 USD, so it is a way cheaper to operate nukes and send troops everywhere for Russia.

And if you think that nuclear engineers are making significantly more than an average Ivan, then I have a bad news for you, that's unlikely. For example, a friend of mine works for a subcontractor of Roscosmos (Russian space activities corporation, basically russian "NASA") as an electronic measurements instrumentation engineer and makes 60000 rubles per month before taxes (roughly 850$ per month). That's a joke of a salary and he is only able to work there because he is owning a property in Moscow.

novok• 5 years ago

If they really liked tourism, they would give tourist visas on arrival like all the other tourist loving countries, not make you go through a visa application song and dance.

berdario• 5 years ago

They were actually going to do something almost as good in 2020 (plans got postponed due to the pandemic)

https://evisa.kdmid.ru/

Most western countries can actually visit without getting a visa in your passport beforehand.

The US and the UK also benefit a lot from tourism, and yet they have an extremely hostile border control system + an extremely onerous visa application process (I got a Russian visa a few times... It's definitely simpler)

vbezhenar2• 5 years ago

As long as there's no official stance from Russia, I would consider those cancels to be caused by technical issues. Probably it's not that easy to re-route many flights very quickly.

myko• 5 years ago

Russia has been getting away with far too much for far too long on the international stage. Putin is out of control. The rest of the world should extract their people and ban all flights in/out of Russia.

ridiculous_leke• 5 years ago

Countries in the east, except Japan and South Korea will never do that.

fsloth2• 5 years ago

Russia has too much delicious raw materials - oil, gas and minerals. Now, for a country that does not export anything the world economy requires, it is simple to close it off, like Cuba. If Cuba produced oil and minerals it would not be so isolated. Nobody wants to stop trading with Russia.

So there is the global economic game, and then there is the global political game. All we ever talk about in media is the political game since it's easy to digest in sound bites, but the economics are running the real decision process as much as the politics.

amelius• 5 years ago

If only there was a psychological test for world leaders like we have for astronauts.

h_anna_h• 5 years ago

This was just an (expected) reaction to the banning of Belarusian airlines by the EU. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27273752

zxienin• 5 years ago

So, in a ‘who blinks first’ running next 1 year, who stands to lose most?

Air France cancels flights as Russia withholds clearance

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