After years of conflict and instability, Iraq is opening up to tourism

https://monocle.com/magazine/issues/144/open-invitation/

by fortran77 • 5 years ago

164 84 5 years ago

colpabar• 5 years ago

I bet some western tourists would get a kick out of some kind of joke "weapons of mass destruction" attraction. I don't know if any Iraqi people would though.

whatshisface• 5 years ago

The red carpet leads up to a huge vault door. The carnie promises you the sight of your life. You tell all your friends and bring them along. Your buddy Dubois stays home, and you resent him for it. The vault door opens, and you walk around the corner. You see a roped-in platform. The platform is empty and the carnie is gone.

The price of admission: two trillion dollars. The door is now locked from the outside.

vmception2• 5 years ago

This reminds me how I used to smooth out people's extreme views of areas and regimes:

One day your child will be going on a senior trip to Disneyland Iraq and your protest against it will simply make you look like the old prejudiced bigot. Nobody will care that you were fed propaganda and also reality for 20 years straight. No different than our parents, grandparents or refugees having haunting views of other countries that are major allies now.

calvinmorrison• 5 years ago

Reminds me of the Mad Men scene where the old guy is in a conference with a Japanese firm and freaks out, still mentally fighting the war, while everyone else stares at him like he's crazy

sebmellen2• 5 years ago

Though I understand your point, “Disneyland Iraq” still sounds like an extremely remote possibility.

tonyedgecombe• 5 years ago

I'm sure Tokyo Disneyland sounded extremely unlikely forty years before it opened.

Apocryphon2• 5 years ago

Might be Netflixland by then.

bloaf2• 5 years ago

While possible, it is equally possible that the Iraq of 30 years from now is just as unsafe for LGBTQ people as it is today.

ixacto• 5 years ago

Yes but we don’t know. Saudi Arabia could be a secular dictatorship/kingdom similar to Turkey or Syria by then.

Iraq might be much more inclusive by then.

Then again Turkey could go full Islamist crazy and be more Saudi Arabia and Erdoğan could declare himself president for life.

But I think globalization will somewhat liberalize all of the above in the coming years, and the desire to fit in and do business globally will push for liberalization.

throwaway8943452• 5 years ago

Is the implication that Islamic terrorist groups operating in Iraq were propagandist fiction? That the real reason westerners fear Iraq is bigotry? I’m specifically unfamiliar with “grandparents and refugees having haunting views of other countries”. I have grandfathers who served in WWII and Korea and they don’t have any particular antipathy for Germans or Koreans. I’m not really familiar with that meme.

the_only_law2• 5 years ago

If Islamic terrorist groups were a major factor in destroying and destabilizing a country it’s a wonder Saudi Arabia is still standing.

vmception2• 5 years ago

The answer to your first question is no. It's still up to you to figure out which parts were propaganda and which parts were reality. The only distinction between a terrorist group or otherwise is sovereign immunity, if you succeed in getting a state then you aren't a terrorist anymore by definition of having political goals met.

And the answer to everything else is now you are familiar with the meme.

Enjoy the new valid experience you went your whole life unaware of.

thaumasiotes• 5 years ago

That the real reason westerners fear Iraq is bigotry?

Hm? Westerners don't fear Iraq. It can't do anything to them.

lucian1900• 5 years ago

The terrorists were US-funded and trained for the purpose of destabilising the region and as excuse for invasion. Just like the lies about WMDs.

exo-pla-net• 5 years ago

It's almost like countries comprise human beings with varying attitudes, and the fanatics don't speak for everybody, much less the kids currently being born.

jgilias• 5 years ago

There are only a few dozen countries that allow people to express those attitudes, or even recognize the right of people to harbor varying attitudes in the first place. No matter how much you might not believe in God, there are plenty of places where your life will be in danger for expressing that attitude, so you don't.

jacobwilliamroy• 5 years ago

I regularly play Arab pop music at parties: Nancy Ajram, Amr Diab, Mohammed Assaf.

pjc50• 5 years ago

I think you're being a bit obtuse about a perfectly reasonable point that yes, someday the war is over and the other side becomes entirely normal. It happened relatively quickly with Germany, in fact maybe quicker than the rehabilitation of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_city

(well, West Germany anyway!)

On the other hand, the war has to end first. Some simply haven't. Europe's oldest frozen warzone is still there, the Green Line across Cyprus. The tourist resort of Nicosia is still a no man's land. https://artsandculture.google.com/story/the-green-line-nicos...

DSingularity• 5 years ago

The West should pay reparations to Iraq for both the illegal war and all the war crimes.

papito2• 5 years ago

Plenty of suitcases full of cash travelled to Iraq when the neocons were looting the treasury during the project. It's not like that money is going to go to the right people anyway - but nice houses will be built.

papito2• 5 years ago

"Clashes between security forces and protesters left one person dead and over a dozen injured Tuesday after hundreds of Iraqis took to the streets in Baghdad to protest a rise in targeted killings of prominent activists and journalists."[1]

Cool.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/iraq-middle-east-health-coronavir...

dang2• 5 years ago

"Don't be snarky."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

colechristensen• 5 years ago

How often could something like that be written about an event in an american city?

I’m not trying to say there’s equivalent danger, but these kinds of things happen all over the world even in “safe” places.

soared• 5 years ago

Targeted killing of journalists? Uhhh.. basically never in the us?

Apocryphon2• 5 years ago

Sounds similar to what's been happening in certain cities of Colombia this past month. And that country is still a tourist hotspot.

peteretep• 5 years ago

Worth remembering that visiting there (or Iran) will mean your ESTA privileges are revoked, and you’ll need a visa to travel to ‘merika.

usrme• 5 years ago

This was news to me and it turns out that this is indeed the case: https://e-visa.ie/usa/news/iran-and-esta. They mention the 1st of March, 2011 as the cut off point, but I haven't been able to suss out why it's that date exactly. I'm guessing it has to do with the Arab Spring, but that is just conjecture. Hopefully someone can correct me if I am way off base.

fsloth• 5 years ago

Holy moley, thanks for the heads up! Your comment should be the top comment, given the business of business which for us non-US citizens still requires often interacting with the said polity!

Also - US, hello? That kind of sucks. Tourism would be a great way to integrate these areas more to the "western" spheres of business (I'm not saying that is a valuable value as such, I take no sides, but I presume US would consider this still advantageous to it's positioning).

When I read this news I immediately thought I could go and visit the ruins of Babylon (yes, I can go and see pieces of it museums in non-ESTA-nulling places but it's not the same thing). Now - ancient babylon vs. ESTA privileges? Oh man, choices, choices.

bassdropvroom• 5 years ago

I'm European-Kurd, and had to travel to Kurdistan Region (northern Iraq) for my sister's wedding a few years before I had to go to the US. I was denied my ESTA without a refund (it was $20 iirc, so not a huge amount but as someone who had just graduated, every penny counted for me) due to this exemption. Had to get a full visitors visa to go which took a lot longer, and was way more expensive. The exemption, which was put in place due to ISIS in 2013, seems reasonable though unfortunate.

verelo• 5 years ago

Years back i seriously considered an Iran trip out of general curiosity about the region. It quickly became clear this would inhibit future travel to the US so i figured it wasn’t worth the trouble. Super disappointing, it would be cool to see the area.

selphy1• 5 years ago

Lets say you have two passports. One Irish and one Russian. If you use Russian passport to enter Iraq, will you still have trouble with ESTA with your Irish passport?

bzzzt• 5 years ago

You're asked to fill in a questionnaire when entering the US as a foreigner. I think lying at the 'did you visit...' questions would be grounds for the US to declare you 'persona non grata', so it's not a risk you'd want to take if want to keep the possibility of entering the US again.

hawk_• 5 years ago

usually such places (destination under embargo or sanctions) are happy to not mark your travel document in any way and let you through. they may issue a booklet to indicate when your stay there should end which you can discard when you're out.

short_sells_poo• 5 years ago

The problem is if the US authorities ever find out, you may be fully banned from the country. Is that a risk worth running?

saiya-jin3• 5 years ago

This, plus also if you change passports because they happen to expire or you lose them, the trail is completely broken. US immigration doesn't have a clue, not from global flight data, not from your IDs. The negative side is you have to lie on ESTA form which sucks, but the whole US approach to Iran is plain stupid and amoral so I didn't mind it.

I went to Iran, it was the most amazing 1-week trip vacation I've ever done (Damavand, Isfahan, Yazd, a bit of Tehran). Amazingly friendly people, everybody spoke english, most signs are dual farsi/english, and the best part - its completely untouched by mass tourism. Feels surreal in current world, in the best way possible.

Even if this trip would ban me for life from US which is practically impossible with current tech, trips like these are 100x worth it. Can't recommend enough.

kweks4• 5 years ago

You get stamped into Kurdistan. It's unobtrusive. As other posters have said, refreshing your passport before traveling to the US works.

fortran77• 5 years ago

Just get another passport. Or have them stamp your entry on a piece of paper separate from the passport.

Notice it says in the article:

Entry: If there is evidence of travel to Israel in your passport entry is unlikely to be granted.

Israel will, upon request, give you a removable sticker for your passport instead of stamping it if you also need to travel to unfriendly countries. I'm sure Iraq will figure out the same thing. (despite the irony!)

krisoft• 5 years ago

Just get another passport.

That unfortunately is a very dangerous and very bad advice in this case. The ESTA doesn't just check your passport for evidence of you being traveled to these countries. They ask you if you did. If you tell the truth, you don't get a visa waiver. If you lie and they learn about it from some source you can be in a heap of trouble. This trouble can include deportation, inability to ever again enter the USA, complications with entering many other western nations, etc.

I don't know about the probabilities of them figuring out the lie. It can be anywhere between "being hit by lightning" and "almost certainty". The potential consequences on the other hand are known and quite dire.

ucha• 5 years ago

IIRC ESTA only asks for 5 years of travel history so maybe it wouldn't affect people who don't plan to visit the US in the next 5 years...

dang2• 5 years ago

All: please avoid cheap comments about inflammatory issues. If you have something thoughtful to say, say it substantively; otherwise, please don't post it here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Mediterraneo10• 5 years ago

It should be noted that tourism to Iraq's Kurdistan province has been going on for years, with a steady stream of backpackers entering from Turkey. That region is autonomously governed and has been relatively spared the violence of the rest of the country. But the opening of tourism to the south of the country is a surprising development.

sebmellen2• 5 years ago

Great video on that by Yes Theory here: https://youtu.be/TWRlPKMAkRk.

blueblisters• 5 years ago

That was a great video, thanks for the share!

giuliomagnifico5• 5 years ago

This. I agree, I’ve been there 3 times during the war against ISIS (as a journalist) and I was really surprised about the Kurdistan. Very nice!

amerine• 5 years ago

As an American, how could I plan and arrange for a travel visit? Is there a service that can arrange everything for me?

ipaddr• 5 years ago

Opening up for tourism would imply flights probably to a major city.

Haemm0r• 5 years ago

e.g. direct flight VIE-EBL(mainly due Austrian to involvement in the oil business in the region) or Istanbul-EBL is served regularly.

devoutsalsa• 5 years ago

As an American who has been traveling for over 18 months now, I have two suggestions:

- find & join an expat group on Facebook to ask questions like this

- consider not over planning and just go, figuring it out when you’re there, as I promise you there will be plenty of locals willing to arrange things for you when you get there

- for a place like Iraq, the hardest part might be getting cash. I was in Pakistan last year and a lot of the ATMs wouldn’t work with my debit card. Eventually I found one. Just don’t assume you’ll be able to pay with a Visa card everywhere. In Pakistan I simply sent myself a bunch of money via Western Union.

- register with the State Department’s STEP program if you go.

giuliomagnifico5• 5 years ago

As an European journalist I’ve been to Iraq, Mosul and Sinjar during the war 3 times in 2014-17-18. I’m a photographer, here are my reportages www.giuliomagnifico.it (under reportage menu).

The north Iraq (Kurdistan region) is a wonderful place for tourist! I absolutely suggest to go there, with all the precautions of course.

If you need something, just ask me. I’ve got some contacts/friends in Kurdistan.

stevoski• 5 years ago

The north Iraq (Kurdistan region) is a wonderful place for tourist!

I've been there, as a backpacking tourist. "A wonderful place for tourist" is overselling it, I think.

giuliomagnifico5• 5 years ago

Beauty is subjective but the people are very friendly, there aren’t other tourists and the city like Erbil are very very nice IMO.

Here I’ve uploaded(G. Photos) some “stupid/phone” photos from my last trip to Iraq: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TrRVhH6uDAmMU5cNA so you can view that there are a lot of tourists attractions and beautiful places!

postsantum• 5 years ago

Could you elaborate a bit? "Meh" type of reviews are rare to encounter, especially for a place that is off the beaten path

josefrichter• 5 years ago

I am one of those who’d seriously consider going. I was even watching many videos of people traveling to the region. One big disadvantage is that once you go there, you won’t get ESTA to the US and would have to go thru lengthy visa process. And I’m afraid you’d be getting more attention in general, unfortunately.

kweks4• 5 years ago

For what it's worth, Kurdistan, the north of Iraq has been open for tourism for many years.

Kurdistan is the semi-autonomous region of Iraq, whose capital is Erbil.

I've been through twice, the first time at possibly the the 'worst' time - just after the rise of ISIS in Mossul, and when the US was bombing just south of Erbil.

Despite initial concerns, safety was never a problem. I felt safe; did not feel like an unwelcome presence, and moreover, it was an incredible experience.

No visa is required, you get stamped in at the border. The police and Pershmerga were kind, dutiful and not overbearing.

Although it's a sliver of the rest of the country, there are many very interesting things to see (the spiritual centre of the Yzidi, Erbil, the mountains to the North, etc etc).

Kurdistan is secular, with a mix of ethnicities and religions. There is at least one third of women who do not wear the hijab, and the burqua is rare. (You see more burquas in the east of Turkey).

My second visit was during Ramadan, and I was surprised to see people drinking alcohol in the streets and bars.

(Please note, I don't consider a country's "modernity" by its acceptation of alcohol. The point is more that there is a deep culture of tolerance and acceptance within Kurdistan, which can be demonstrated with examples such as the consumption of alcohol).

In regards to losing rights to travel under ESTA, I have visited the US since without issue, even with an Iraqi stamp in the passport. With that said, I imagine that simply replacing your passport after a trip would be a workable solution as well.

Photos for the interested: http://travel.ninjito.com/2014-08-10-Kurdistan http://www.ninjito.com/2019-05-15-Iraq

smcl2• 5 years ago

How did you find getting around outside the cities (or between them)? Did you hire a car, or a driver, or was there good enough public transport?

kweks4• 5 years ago

The first time I had my motorbike.

Second time just hired a car. Car hire from the airport is quick and easy (it's Hertz).

Without transport, you'd be severely limited I'd say, but it depends how you like to travel.

kweks4• 5 years ago

For anyone considering visiting this region, or any regions with potential conflict (or anyone with an interest in 'raw Intel', https://liveuamap.com/ is a vital resource.

Borders and zones are classed green/yellow/orange/red, incidents (ranging from protests to bombings) are in realtime.

It allows for pragmatic decisions relating to movement than the standard news channels.

nickdothutton• 5 years ago

Iran has good relations with the Arab Shia elite currently attempting to govern in Iraq. Iraq is today as it was in antiquity, the key to greater Iranian influence throughout the region. You might want to consider that before funding that government with your tourist dollar.

gherkinnn• 5 years ago

There's barely a place on earth where you don't fund $OBJECTIONABLE with your tourist dollars.

On the other hand, being within the Iranian sphere of influence might grant you access to delicious food [0]

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_cuisine

austincheney• 5 years ago

I remember my tourism moment in northern Baghdad in 2010. I actually flew there from Kuwait to take a scheduled CISSP exam. I got to tour palace row on Camp Liberty. I got lost the evening I arrived which made me nervous because I recently paid $700 to attend this exam the next morning despite sleeping only about 2 hours and using almost the full 6 hours of test time I still passed (first time go).

I remember the enormous catfish in the largest palace moat and the bats swarm from the local bat tower at night. That large palace was truly exquisite with tall brilliant marble walls and gold lettering in-laid. I also remember the Flintstones palace for Saddam’s grandchildren.

Then I spent a week at Balad playing Guitar Hero awaiting transportation back to Kuwait.

WinstonSmith84• 5 years ago

Iraq is taking tourists for cash cow. 0.01€ for the shared mini-bus, then what we've got to hire a driver for $100 / day and sleeps in a $200 hotel!?

sonthonax• 5 years ago

I’d advise against this unless you have an insane appetite for risk. The problem with going there as a white tourist (and not a Turkish backpacker) is that you will look like you belong in some way to coalition forces. This poses a kidnapping risk in a country that doesn’t have a functional legal system, but also has a internal passport system enforced by semi-state militias.

Problem is, if something does go wrong, it is not entirely clear who’s responsibility it is to get you out.

Your life is not necessarily in danger, but if anything does go wrong you’re in deep shit.

But if you want to see Abbasid and Mesopotamian ruins all the power to you. Just remember, you’re going to be in rural areas with a very flakey state.

Iraq isn’t a poor country either, it’s just incredibly poorly managed. You’ll find the food and hotels there surprisingly expensive and bad. Bribes will also cost you western sums. Infuriatingly, if you’re American you might even be committing a federal crime by giving one demanded at a checkpoint.

One thing that’s properly weird about getting an Iraqi visa is that the process is like stepping back into the late 70s. The USA disbanded rather than reformed the civil service (before it engorged itself to an absurd size post civil war again) but what’s left of it is properly dysfunctional and dated.

Another thing now that precludes actually going is that there are regular ‘lockdowns’ ostensibly for COVID, but are just really an excuse to stymie protests.

tinus_hn• 5 years ago

How’s the covid situation over there? Is it under control and are they ready to accept the risks that tourists bring?

After years of conflict and instability, Iraq is opening up to tourism

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