Ask YC: Where's the escape hatch? I'd like to leave the US, but to where?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=259355

by isoadventure • 18 years ago

21 101 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm sick of the US. Politics gone mad, an economy driven by greed, police state evidence all around - I'm ready for a change.

1) Are there any countries where I can emigrate and start a company? If so, what are some startup hubs around the world?

2) What about any countries that are simply looking for high-tech web workers?

3) As someone who speaks English and only passable Spanish, how easy would it be to get a job in a non-English-speaking country like Japan? Is English typically spoken in the workplace?

byrneseyeview4• 18 years ago

Singapore. Orderly, English-speaking, low taxes, tax breaks for startups (your corporate income tax on your first $100K/year for your first three years is zero).

Although if you're worried that the US is a police state, you might not like it there. It seems to be a country where you're free to do whatever a sensible adult would do, and you really shouldn't deviate from that norm.

william42• 18 years ago

Except chew gum.

bluelu3• 18 years ago

You can buy chewing gum at drug stores if you show your passport. But remember to flush the public toilet when you are done, or you will be fined 500€.

briansmith4• 18 years ago

"Although if you're worried that the US is a police state, you might not like it there." That is putting it mildly. It is illegal to possess chewing gum there. Vandalism is punishable by torture.

byrneseyeview4• 18 years ago

'Punishable by torture' is ridiculous. Caning is rarely used, and I would probably prefer it to a prison sentence.

But again, this is a matter of preference. If you love being an antisocial asshole, Singapore will be hell for you until they kick you out (if they let you in). If you're a responsible adult, you won't notice the laws because they won't apply to you -- the penalty for vandalism or heroin use or spitting on the sidewalk is inconsequential to me.

steveplace2• 18 years ago

That's when it comes in handy to have a U.S. passport.

rms4• 18 years ago

The US gum lobbyists actually won. You can buy medicinal chewing gum (the sugar free kind commonly marketed as "white" here) from an approved healthcare professional, such as a dentist or a pharmacist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore

adrianwaj2• 18 years ago

Try Bahamas or Hawaii, at least the weather will be good.

rit2• 18 years ago

... Except for the fact that Hawaii is in the US.

adrianwaj2• 18 years ago

at least the weather will be good.

tomh• 18 years ago

If you need to pick a country right now, sight unseen, I say Ireland or Scotland. Probably hard to break in without an EU work permit, but if you are talented enough or can telecommute, then you might not have such a problem.

I add Scotland because Dundee seems to attract a lot of IT types, we had dealings with folks in Dundee and they were all whip-smart individuals.

If you want to do a little research before you go, you can pick something a little neater, like Estonia. Estonia would be choice #1 for me, just because it's actually a not-bad economy, good ties to the rest of Scandinavia, orderly/not corrupt, and definitely part of the startup world (Skype and Kazaa, hello?).

And then you could visit Russia and Ukraine and say hello to a real police state...

gaius5• 18 years ago

Scotland's fairly lenient; I've a Canadian friend whose (IIRC) great-grandfather was Scottish and he got in with no problems. Not long after that I signed his citizenship papers.

garrydanger• 18 years ago

Don't the same laws that apply to Scotland also apply to England and Northen Ireland seeings as they are all states inside of the United Kingdom?

gaius5• 18 years ago

Sweden or Iceland would get my vote. New Zealand is a popular option for Brits. Ireland I'm not so sure about; their massive economy growth was funded by EU grants, and now the EU is turning its attention to the former Warsaw Pact countries. Romania or Estonia would be a good bet. A lot of Western companies are buying their IT services there now, where you can fly in for a lunchtime meeting, rather than India. They're stable and everyone speaks English for business.

The big risk to the Scottish economy is that the SNP finally win Scottish independence and Westminster cancels the GBP 45Bn (approx USD 100Bn) subsidy from English taxes. At that point, unless the EU steps in, the Scottish economy will plummet like a rock.

rit2• 18 years ago

Of course, it's also possible that they can replace those with EU grants as well.

However, looking like continued devolution is much more likely than independence in the near future. I believe the polls show only about 1 in 3 adults supporting full independence, but most support continued freedom [e.g. continuing in the vein of having a parliament again].

gaius5• 18 years ago

The elephant in the corner is the West Lothian problem.

And over and above that, the Scots have got nowhere to vote. They can't vote New Labour, they won't vote Tory, the Lib Dems are a joke, the SNP is about the only way to vote up there right now. If the SNP force the issue, the West Lothian problem may not be resolved in a way that favours the Scots...

brk2• 18 years ago

The "economy driven by greed" is, in essence, what also makes the US the best place in the world to start and operate a for-profit business.

Good luck finding another country that is hospitable to a non-citizen starting a business, presents a ready market (all the Web2.0 stuff aside, it is still helpful to be close to the majority of your initial user base), has a legal system that affords you some protection, and lastly - has a tax system that allows you to actually keep a fair percentage of the money you earn.

I don't really care if you mod me down or not, but your post sounds childish and naive. You want to "start a company", but you don't even know where in the world to go, or where English is spoken? Have you done any research at all on this topic (and I wouldn't count posting a question here and expecting people to do your homework 'research')?

isoadventure5• 18 years ago

Gosh that's negative. I simply haven't yet worked outside the US, and thought perhaps some countries with national languages other than english might have english-speaking workplaces. Since News.YC has such an international following, I figured that others could answer (and they have). Sheesh.

brk2• 18 years ago

"I simply haven't yet worked outside the US" is much different than "I'm sick of the US"

You're asking about leaving the US to supposedly start a company. This is much different than looking for the change of scenery and experience of exploring a different country.

You're in the BEST place in the world to start a company. Not recognizing that fact and wanting to start a company shows, to me, a level of immaturity and short-sightedness that is somewhat frustrating.

Sorry if you didn't like my post, I write what I feel.

Allocator2008• 18 years ago

"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. It captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit."

- Gordon Gekko

gaius5• 18 years ago

"... and greed will not only save Teldar Paper but that other malfunctioning corporation, the United States of America"

Tichy• 18 years ago

Welcome to the human condition.

timcederman• 18 years ago

Australia

wrigley• 18 years ago

I am quite surprised by this post and the majority of recommendations. I currently run a startup in the UK, the scene is quite frankly awful, staffing costs in the UK are possibly the highest around.

You need to ask yourself if your possible employees can count leading web/software firms in their CV as more than likely in the US, no is the answer.

We have had extremely bad experiences with UK firms and now outsource all our IT projects via Guru/elance to Eastern European countries like Slovenia and further afield to Kenya (fast becoming a call centre and data alternative to India) and India.itself. The UK currently is in a financial crisis, we are experiencing a hard knock on from the US housing crisis and our inflation is currently at around 3.8% which is well above average. Additionally you will find it shocking to note the Petrol prices here are near on the highest in the world - approx £5.42 per gallon at the moment (approx $11) an earlier comment about EU countries is very viable and moving around between countries is relatively easy within the EU.

From a startup scene perspective there are little in the way of the numerous startup meets and socials I see startups being able to attend in San Fransisco. There just isnt a central hub as you have in the US for technology yet, maybe in 10 years there will be but for now its diluted.

Personally I know of the beauty and appeal of New Zealand and understand the benefits but for the pure weather, excellent salaries and quality of life Australia would be my preferred choice. Suffice to say I have been looking at moving to the US for the reason of the benefits it would bring a new startup and the networking facilities. The Venture Capital reach alone is staggering.

Hope this helps. Additionally to note, setting up a company in the UK will require a UK bank account which in turn requires a permanant address and credit checks etc.

noodle• 18 years ago

if i were you i'd do more research on what countries are open to people in your situation. there aren't really that many countries where you can just walk in and get a work visa or citizenship. some specific examples are japan and italy. if you want to live/work there, you're going to need to know some of the language and a minor mirale.

uuilly• 18 years ago

Stop reading reddit. Wait a month. See how you feel.

ideas101• 18 years ago

And if you're addicted to reddit and cant help it then following are your choices:

Americas: Canada (English speaking, diversified society, encouraging entrepreneurship etc.)

Asia: Singapore, India, Indonesia, Philippines (all countries are english speaking for business)

Europe: any eastern Europe that has good weather and encouraging environment for start-ups.

Far East: Australia/ NewZealand (they have immigration policy, and fantastic weather)

Middle East: Abu-dhabi and Dubai (most happening place, no tax, you just need to find good geeks or import it from India).

Good Luck.

P.S: Find out everything about Australia and Canada - they both have immigration policy and temporary work visa policy ...

tjpick• 18 years ago

I'm in Christchurch, NZ. I just biked to work and "fantastic weather" is not the way I'd describe it. But then we are also not the "Far East". Other material in OP may or may not be true.

anewaccountname2• 18 years ago

>Middle East: Abu-dhabi and Dubai (most happening place, no tax, you just need to find good geeks or import it from India).

If you are from the US, you can never escape paying income tax unless you plan on never returning. You can't legally renounce your citizenship.

isoadventure5• 18 years ago

I don't read reddit, but I do read the news.

I shouldn't have mentioned the politics stuff in my post. That confused the issue for some. The top reason for me asking is that I'm just ready for a change. I know every place has its downside, but without ever living anywhere else - how can I know for certain what is important to me?

chris_l• 18 years ago

Well seriously, forget about the news too. It's like negativity programming for the brain. See how you feel after a month w/o it.

neilk• 18 years ago

Well, hang on. The USA is probably the most hospitable environment for business in the known universe. Not only is it harder to start businesses in most other countries, but expats face additional restrictions on business activity in most places. So if you want to start a business, stay in the USA. If you still want a change, the USA is a very diverse country, you can find all sorts of cultures just by moving a couple of states in any direction.

Challenges can also be found by giving yourself some handicaps.I knew a guy who was a moderately successful programmer, who sold all his belongings and hitchhiked across the USA.

If you want some sort of adventure that will test your sense of yourself, try someplace very different. India, Africa, China. Best handled with a buddy traveler, but they are not so hard to find.

Extreme short term, you can try Burning Man, that's on in a month and it will definitely stretch your imagination.

JFred• 18 years ago

Go for the weather and prices, not the politics. You can live as you want in the US. Plenty of hippy communes, survivalists, polygamists, vegetarians.

Work in the web, relax in good weather. The best weather in the US is either in Hawaii or on the coast north of San Diego.

Used to be people who wanted to get away went to the Soviet Union to help build the freedom of the Workers Paradise. I'd say be careful. It could be a one-way trip.

Tell us your politics, religion, sexual orientation and age and we can be of more help. I gather you're looking for a left-wing tech incubator. Don't know of any, but Israel and Ireland come close.

alanmccann• 18 years ago

So sorry - but everywhere else is downhill on all aspects that bother you about the US.

Greed- just expresses itself through different channels Police state - give me a break Politics gone mad - freedom has its price

Unfortunately, as much as it sucks, it is better than every other alternative.

urlwolf• 18 years ago

I say Berlin. Not the rest of Germany, though.

alaskamiller3• 18 years ago

Have you personally experience the ill effects of the US or is this just from reading Reddit all day? I had the same feeling and took time to travel within the US and disconnect from the Internet.

As for finding another place, there are problems with any other places you pick. Can you pick up a high-tech job in Japan without knowing Japanese? Not likely. Japan is also a nifty place to visit but rarely a good place to stay.

Maybe you can run to Canada.

menloparkbum3• 18 years ago

The thing about working in tech in Japan is that whereas Japanese engineers are good at making games and consumer electronics, they are not very good at typical desktop or web software. In my experience, most "software engineers" in Japan were actually Chinese... who could also speak English. Thus, it isn't that hard to get hired, even if you don't know much Japanese. It is hard to find the job in the first place, though.

alaskamiller3• 18 years ago

There's two routes: traditional software development in big corporations where it's all Japanese university graduates or with smaller proto-startups with a bigger mix. They're not clustered in anywhere in particular. If you have contacts, give that a shot.

isoadventure5• 18 years ago

Do you mean "unplug from reddit" or "unplug from the news"? Because while I know doing the latter would make me feel a lot better, I wouldn't want to live in a place where I'd have to do that to feel better.

rms4• 18 years ago

Reddit is an extreme example of showing the world at its most negative. Sometimes you need to remind yourself that despite the corruption, the insanity, the maliciousness, and the violence of our globalized society, everything continues to function! Despite the best efforts of many, worldwide standard of living increases every year and you can start to see the system we live in as bringing about positive change, despite its imperfections. Try and look at the biggest picture and not the monthly debate about civil liberties: realize the debate itself is what keeps your civil liberties mostly intact.

If you're looking for a different, more serious, more pro-globalization news source, try the CFR. They are our friends, I think. http://www.cfr.org/

alaskamiller3• 18 years ago

Sometimes you have to realize there are by far worse things out there. Having been in the military and seen what real fucked-up circumstances are like in other countries, I much prefer what we have in the States over anything else.

And have you considered that the bickering, the analysis, the corruption, the this and that is part of the evolution of our republic and culture? That the introspection is required and Reddit being the lens is only one part of that? The only other thing that can make you feel better, albeit still hollow, is voting. Aside from that all you have left is to be personally involved in politics. I dropped what I was doing and bought a ticket to join the Ron Paul protest and rally. It made me feel better.

mdasen• 18 years ago

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but what you're looking for doesn't exist. The US still has more protections against police interference in personal life than Europe. Europeans do tend to be more liberal than Americans and Europeans are more likely to force governments to their will. That is both good and bad. On the good side, democracy is more fulfilled. On the bad side, democracy can look like mob rule (especially when it comes to immigration today). This isn't to defend bad things in the US or make Europe look bad - more to point out that they're not as far apart as the original premise.

Every place has its faults. For example, Canada tends to be a bastion of liberalism and multi-culturalism. However, in the province of Ontario, Catholic denominated schools are public funded while schools of other religions must be privately funded. That doesn't mean that Ontario is a bad place to live or that its governors are bad people; it means that every place has these huge annoying faults that just suck.

So, the question isn't "where is better than America". That's a silly question. "Where do the annoyances annoy me personally less" is a better question. Maybe you care about domestic spying, but don't mind the state funding Catholic schools. Maybe you hate republicans for crying terror all the time, but don't mind European leaders yelling at immigrants for looking different. Maybe you hate the greed, but don't mind massive consumerism and vending machines selling everything everywhere in Japan.

For what it's worth, I'd have to agree with the couple of people that have mentioned Ireland. It's wealthy, immigrant-friendly, high-tech, with a good and stable government. It's environmentalist and a tad socialist without being anti-business. OH, and it's English speaking. The downsides? Well, broadband is crappy and everything costs a boatload. Police can stop and search without suspicion (as is the case in most countries); that mostly applies to things like drunk driving which has a zero-tolerance policy (as in, no driving if you've had a beer).

You have to figure out what you value - and whether a certain place has it. The Economist's Quality of Life Index (http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/quality_of_life.pdf) is a good place to narrow your list and it's important to note that there are only a dozen countries scoring higher than the US. I'd say, based on who I am, I'd be happy in half to three-quarters of those. Hope this has provided help.

ambition• 18 years ago

Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto have reasonable startup scenes.

modoc• 18 years ago

Vancouver is a beautiful city. I love it there.

ibsulon• 18 years ago

If only Toronto wasn't so cold...

mrtron2• 18 years ago

Motivation to stay indoors 6 months of the year?

As long as you don't really hate the cold - and enjoy winter sports, the winter is bearable. (yes, that was for laughs, and yes I just thought it up now)

It does make it harder to get focussed right now when the weather is delightful.

dan-kruchinin2• 18 years ago

Very naive. Do you know anything about immigration policy in different countries? Do you really think that foreign governments are waiting you with open arms? For them you're just useless foreigner if they can't get profit from you. You may be profitable if 1) Foreign country need high qualified specialists. If you one of them you could get work permit. 2) You have enough money to open your own business there. (actually some countries have "business-based" immigration policy(as Australia for example) and some have not).

And note, there are not so many "IT-countries" but most of IT companies in them depend on IT industry in US. So you could lose your money.

nraynaud2• 18 years ago

I think since he is coming from a rich country he won't have too much immigration problem.

davidw3• 18 years ago

You are, unfortunately, wrong, though. In many places it's not easy, no matter where you're from.

isoadventure5• 18 years ago

Very negative. Curious as to where you get your expertise. From my (admittedly limited) research, immigration for skilled workers is easy if not encouraged. Take for example, NZ, which lists hundreds of "qualified" jobs on their immigration site that will get you fast-tracked toward 2+ year documents.

mdemare• 18 years ago

NZ is exceptionally positive toward qualified immigrants.

dan-kruchinin2• 18 years ago

Note, I didn't say that immigration is impossible. All immigrant needs is to be profitable for the country he wants to move to. If he has really good skills in a priority area and if purposed country has a lack of qualified workers in that area, he has a chance to get a work permit. In this case all depends on his skills. And it's not "pessimistic" point of view, rather it's realistic.

Actually I don't know much about NZ immigration policy, but in some countries(CZ for example) you can find a job on the spot, in other countries(for example in Australia) you have to prove your skills via some tests and only after you have appropriate number of points you get a work permit.

wheels2• 18 years ago

Some countries, at least the UK and Australia have a points system whereby if you qualify it's relatively easy to move over. Most countries require you to have lined up a specific job (i.e. not starting a company) that couldn't be filled by a local. Understand that "relatively easy" means, "a huge amount of effort, waiting and frustration, bordering on traumatic".

Moving away from the US is a huge amount of work. I have done it and I have to say that I agree with the negative tone here -- if you're not completely determined to do it, and haven't done the due diligence to have a strong desire to go to a specific place and really dig deep into their immigration requirements, then it bodes ill for your scheming. It's just not something you can do on a whim.

As for workplaces, some are in English, especially in international firms, but usually to feel comfortable in a place you'll want to learn the local language. Aside from it being necessary for building up a social circle, say, when you go to the doctor, or need to get your utilities set up, or have to fill out your tax forms, that will naturally all be in the local language.

Setting up a new business, without a local co-founder, would be next to impossible without speaking the local language ( aside from the fact that in most countries you wouldn't be allowed to do so anyway). You need to put so many things -- taxes, incorporation, insurance, contracts, banking -- and again, naturally all of those things will happen in the local language.

And then, to top things off, for doing a startup, the US is the most convenient place to be. You can do it elsewhere, and there are a couple hot spots -- Tel Aviv, London -- but it seems best to focus on where you want to be, figure out if you could possible get there, and then figure out if there's a startup scene. Keep in mind that if you start sorting this out today, it'll probably be 6-12 months before you could move.

buga• 18 years ago

Try Costa Rica. Many big companies outsourcing there, English widely spoken and many talented and educated employees available.

nraynaud2• 18 years ago

good idea I think. I'd say north Europe. Or maybe trying a country in Latin America, to get out of beaten paths.

While being abroard, people tends to loose interest in politics : they're not concerned by home politics, and they're not citizens of their hosting country. Maybe it's not true for americans since even their internal affairs are covered worldwide.

andr• 18 years ago

The Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany have a lot of English-speaking workplaces. A lot of web jobs in London. New Zealand has an interesting albeit small startup scene.

bluelu3• 18 years ago

If you are good and bring in capital, I think probably every country will give you a working permit. Just remember that as US citizen you will always to have to pay taxes in the US even if you work outside the US. (in addition to the taxes you pay in the country you are working in) :)

ninguem1• 18 years ago

A lot of countries have tax treaties with the US. So you can deduct the taxes you pay in that country from your US tax. You don't get double taxed. Of course, if you go to a place with very little taxes, you don't get to enjoy that.

bluelu3• 18 years ago

Thanks for clarifying. I actually heard that you would get double taxed, but this was probably wrong.

bubaker• 18 years ago

U.S. citizens don't necessarily have to pay U.S. income taxes on income they earn abroad, depending on length of residency abroad and level/type of income:

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc853.html

Much clearer information at About.com:

http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm

Short version: if you move abroad, you pay taxes only on income over $87,600, at least for 2008.

You can also exclude some housing allowance, but the amount is not as standard or clear (see About.com).

BTW - I'm an American living abroad; I agree that you should seek to solve the problems you have / perceive, and not expect anything close to perfect anywhere. I miss a good number of things about the U.S., and many things... not so much. YMMV...

briansmith4• 18 years ago

Never, ever give up your US citizenship. It is one of the most valuable things in the world, inside or outside the United States. I don't think that will change for at least 25 years, due to inertia if nothing else.

If you don't speak Japanese then it isn't easy to get a job in Japan. But, anything is possible. I've talked with many people that moved to Japan and they often found it to be a cold and isolating place after they outgrew the "cute American boy" look and role. You can count on doing most stuff in Japanese in Japan. I have a friend that came to the US and learned a lot of English, and she works as a liaison between her Japanese coworkers and their foreign business partners. Other than that kind of job, everything is Japanese, and Japanese people are much less willing to try to speak to you in English than the natives of other countries in my experience. Anyway, Speaking Japanese is not hard but it takes a long time to read and write. If you save up some money you can take an intensive course for a year and you will be more than good for getting a job that doesn't require too much reading, assuming you have a US degree already.

Anyway, you can go anywhere and do anything. But, there are few places in the world where you can go and do anything easier than you can in the US. When I left, I thought it was great at first; in the end I was making plans to bring my new friends back here with me so they would have more opportunities and a fairer chance at a good life. Becoming a foreigner in another country doesn't increase your freedom whatsoever; you are staying in their country at their pleasure, and you have very little leverage in any situation.

Regardless of where you go, it really helps to have a lot of money relative to those around you. Stick around a little bit and make a nice pile of money to take with you, if you don't have one already.

gills• 18 years ago

Rather than running away, why don't you try voting or running for a public office? Do something about your situation, don't try to get others to fix it for you (and yes, running to some 'better' country is exactly that).

mechanical_fish2• 18 years ago

- uuilly is right: Stop reading the news. It's just making you depressed.

- The USA has got its problems, but other countries also have their problems. Half the problems that plague the USA also plague the world. (Example: Our housing bubble is also, in part, a global housing bubble -- easy credit can cross national boundaries, and it has!) And many of the problems that are new to the USA are old news in the rest of the world. (Ask a Londoner about police-state surveillance. Ask (e.g.) a Brazilian from the slums of Rio about police violence. Ask a Chinese person about what it's like to live without a First Amendment... or ask an old Chinese person, or (god help us) a Cambodian, what "politics gone mad" really looks like.)

- You need to travel, no question. Just take some long trips. If you put all your stuff in storage you can spend your rent money in foreign countries for months at a time.

- The best place for you to start a company is almost certainly the USA. You know the language. You know the culture. You've got a lot of contacts. You have no legal issues.

- You're a web worker. Think about it: Just because your company is in the USA doesn't mean your office needs to be in the USA. You can have an office on a beach in Argentina for a month, then have an office in a cafe in Japan for a month, then have an office in a hostel in Australia for a month. Just learn the local words for "wifi" and remember: When a customs official asks if your trip is for pleasure you say yes.

isoadventure5• 18 years ago

> - You're a web worker All my adult life I've dreamed about doing this. But how many people actually do that? It sounds practical, but in practice, there is really no substitute for presence.

mechanical_fish2• 18 years ago

Oddly, over half my consulting clients have never met me. Some have never spoken to me. All of them seem reasonably happy.

gm2• 18 years ago

I moved the f*ck out of the US and set up a business in Mexico. I will not say what or exactly where, but my quality of life has shot straight up. Everything's cheaper, the girls are great, no Bush politics, I don't hear stories of police murde^H^H^H^H^Hacting in self-defense against normal people, and i'm a de facto super hero here for helping the economy pick up.

Like someone else said: Look at what bothers you, then look for places that don't have that shit, rather than looking for the perfect place. Every place has its downside.

NZ seems like good place, so does France (if you want to have a 35 hour work week). There are lots of options.

ssanders82• 18 years ago

Hey, question for you: can you say approximately where are you in Mexico? I started looking at the Baja, like Cabo, but got very quickly turned off by many stories of violence/robberies against Americans.

gm2• 18 years ago

A couple hours away from Guadalajara. Look for a city without drug gang problems.

menloparkbum3• 18 years ago

1) You can emigrate almost anywhere to start a company, if you have half a million dollars or more, in cash. If you don't have any money, it is hard(er) to emigrate anywhere in the "first world."

2) Nowhere in particular is facing a shortage of high-tech web workers.

3) It is easy to get a job in Japan if you know someone who can get you a job in Japan. The hard part is finding the job in the first place. If you don't already have a connection, your best bet is to already be in Japan, and then apply somewhere that is known for hiring non-japanese people... like an investment bank or JENS or Dell. English is not typically spoken in the workplace in Japan, but in my experience, one out of 30 people spoke decent english. I wouldn't say Japan is a great place to go if you are simply sick of the USA. It is fun for 3-6 months. It is very expensive and a "closed society," so after a while you will get very homesick.

__• 18 years ago

I'm not sure your strategy is sound. Nonetheless, if you're determined to work in another country (assuming you're not a citizen), you will quickly run into legal trouble: in most countries, you need to have some sort of work permit, which can be difficult or impossible to get.

If any of your ancestors are from Europe, you may be able to claim citizenship in their country of origin. This is the legal principle of jus sanguinis. The Wikipedia article on jus sanguinis has a list of countries that have that style of citizenship law (not all are European).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis

This is cool, because -- as I understand it -- if you're a citizen of a European Union member country, you can legally work anywhere else in the EU. For example, if you can claim Spanish citizenship through your grandfather, you can go work at a startup in London. (Starting your own company might be a different matter, though.)

If you're descended from Jews, you may be able to claim Israeli citizenship. I don't know much about this, but Israel does have a startup scene.

davidw3• 18 years ago

Yeah, once you're in the EU, you can go anywhere. I'm married to an Italian woman (a strategy I can't recommend highly enough:-), and we can move anywhere within the EU - for instance we're in Austria right now. We're thinking of going back to the US though, as there are more and better opportunities there, especially for her.

czcar• 18 years ago

Try New Zealand, starting a business takes 5 minutes and $160, and it has to be done online. We also have a growing population of startups in Auckland and Wellington.

www.nzte.govt.nz www.med.govt.nz

mindslight• 18 years ago

If you aren't really bothered by the _present_ effects but instead the long term conditions, then I would suggest moving some assets overseas (foreign bank accounts or gold), so that you've got resources to flee should the need arise, but otherwise staying put and pursuing what you'd like.

I see most of what is happening in the US (militarized police/information privacy/corporate rule) as a greater worldwide trend. Running away from the leading edge is only going to buy you a little time.

rms4• 18 years ago

I always hear good things about Argentina/Buenos Aires; if you speak passable Spanish you'll be up to fluent in a year of immersion.

aggieben• 18 years ago

There is no place in the Western world that doesn't have

(a) politics that are even more mad (b) a worse economy (c) less police state.

Not reading reddit is probably the best advice you've gotten.

helveticaman• 18 years ago

Chile, perhaps. Latin America is pretty insulated from the housing bubble, Chile in particular. It also has these innovative concepts called capitalism and democracy. As an entrepreneur, you barely pay taxes. I've met people who pay whatever you want (because of loopholes) or whatever your con, save VAT, which is at 18%. You can hire anybody, from anywhere on earth, with minimal amounts of immigration bullshit [1]. Engineers cost about the same as they do in India. Weather is as good as SV. On top of that, the elite is largely made up of engineer entrepreneurs, and they run the place. It more free trade agreements than any other country, and is the only Western country with a FTA with China.

However, you're far from big markets, and people are xenophobic, and the universities are not on a par with Stanford or Harvard. Plus, it's not Silicon Valley. Starting a company isn't easy, but it is less hard than it is at a lot of other places. Also, quality is hard to find.

I would never recommend going to another country to start a company because emigrating is starting from scratch, and you might know less Spanish than you think. But if you were really set on going somewhere else, and set on going to Latin America, Santiago's not a bad place to go.

[1] There's a limit: no more than 15% of your employees can be non-Chileans.

thomatas• 18 years ago

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

volida• 18 years ago

what if the problem is the solution?

mrtron2• 18 years ago

Get some contract work within the US, and be making a good American salary while travelling/working. Don't take too much work on so you can relax.

It is something I have considered.

mick_m• 18 years ago

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/24/75-threatening-to...

flashgordon• 18 years ago

well i am going to india in september for 3 weeks to check out the startup scene!!

gimme a buzz if are considering India :D:D

rob• 18 years ago

South Africa.

patrocles• 18 years ago

John Walker from AutoCad chose Switzerland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_%28programmer%29

Any other famous ex-pats? I figure that if immigration doesn't go up, taxes will (or services go to hell)... and that will lead to more ex-pats.

oxo• 18 years ago

As I understand it there is a 30% tax on worldwide possessions to surrender a US passport. Apparently the Russians used to do it to Jews as they fled the border but since the cold war ended theres no reason not to copy it.

Ask YC: Where's the escape hatch? I'd like to leave the US, but to where?

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