Boeing 737 Max Is Cleared by FAA to Resume Flights

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/business/boeing-737-max-faa.html

by Kaibeezy • 6 years ago

67 90 6 years ago

nytimes.com

Darmody• 6 years ago

I won't fly on that thing.

throwaway4good• 6 years ago

Who will buy this? Are they not being boycotted by the Chinese?

tartoran• 6 years ago

They don’t need to be boycotted, they simply have a bad design addressed with a software workaround. The bad early track record is enough to keep a large chunk of people terrified of flying on them that airlines would probablty invest into different planes. Not sure what would happen to the current fleet, they would probably continue to fly successfully having that pilots are now aware of the shortcomings but I don’t see this plane making any further success in sales

flippyhead• 6 years ago

My plan is to not fly on these for 6 - 12 month; see if any more crash. On the one hand, I would be terrified because, obviously! But on the other, they must now be extremely safe, with all the scrutiny, right?

donkeyd• 6 years ago

Not flying at all for the next 6-12 months seems reasonable too, in light of the ongoing pandemic.

DennisP2• 6 years ago

They crashed because they made an unstable airframe and tried to make up for it with sensors and software. They've presumably improved the sensors and software, along with training, but the airframe is the same.

I'd much rather ride some boring old design that's been flying safely for decades without needing fancy software to keep it in the air.

mumblemumble• 6 years ago

My understanding is that the airframe wasn't unstable in a way that's particularly unusual for commercial aircraft, and these sorts of things are regularly handled just fine with pilot training.

The problem was that it was unstable in a way that wasn't exactly like previous 737 models. Except actually that probably wasn't a problem so much as an annoyance. The problem was that, since retraining pilots for the MAX's quirks would have been unpalatable for customers, they decided to try and use software to sweep it under the carpet. Except perhaps the even more fundamental problem was that the FAA was so deeply asleep on their post that this glaring snow job apparently flew past them without notice.

tzs• 6 years ago

It is not an unstable airframe. See this prior thread for more detail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21245975

rob742• 6 years ago

No. The MAX is basically a boring old design that's been flying safely for decades, and it is perfectly stable. The only problem was a small handling issue that appeared at very steep climbs because of the new engines. And because they wanted to keep the same type certificate, the MAX had to handle exactly the same as the "old" 737, so they introduces MCAS to adjust the "maneuvering characteristics" automatically. Which was so badly designed that it led to the crashes. So the problem is not with the basic 737 design, the problem is that the new MCAS was much worse than the problem it was supposed to fix.

danpalmer2• 6 years ago

The hot take is "I won't fly on these anymore", and I totally get it. However, this is a plane with a ton of recent scrutiny from the FAA, and the product of Boeing cultural failings.

Is the better version of this take "I won't fly Boeing anymore"? With the possible exception of this plane given its recent scrutiny.

The other planes in use are updated on a rolling basis, they've had "minor" changes here and there, potentially the same level of "minor" that the Max was – and we know how that performed.

Dirlewanger• 6 years ago

Is the better version of this take "I won't fly Boeing anymore"?

I'd love not to, but that basically means not flying domestically anymore ever, only directly out of the US, and even then it may still be Boeing.

syshum• 6 years ago

pre-covid almost all of the flights I took where on bombardier CRJ regional Jets

Uncomfortable as hell.... I hate them

kube-system2• 6 years ago

If you are really serious about not flying Boeing, you could always book flights at small regional airports.

Not sure I’d personally prefer a Cessna 208 to a MAX 8, though.

amyjess3• 6 years ago

Spirit operates an all-Airbus fleet and has extensive domestic coverage.

cm21872• 6 years ago

And I think the take would be different for a regular flyer than occasional flyer.

Even before the fix, the probability of an occasional flyer getting in a crash was already negligible. For someone taking the same flight twice a week, or worse for the cabin crew spending half of the year in this plane, the risk was unacceptable.

So unless you fly very often, it is rational to not worry which model you board. One dodges small risks all day long, crossing the street, eating food, being exposed to animals or germs, etc. It’s just one more.

danpalmer2• 6 years ago

Edit: for clarity, I'm not suggesting this is my take, but I think it might be the more logical version of that hot take.

amyjess3• 6 years ago

I've decided that once the pandemic is over and it'll be safe to fly again, I'll be flying Spirit exclusively because they operate an all-Airbus fleet.

I'm not risking ever getting on a Boeing ever again.

capableweb7• 6 years ago

The agency’s chief, Stephen Dickson, signed an order Wednesday formally lifting the grounding [...] “I am 100 percent comfortable with my family flying on it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5cpPGEj1Q

I'm looking forward to seeing a video of him and his family on this plane, unless this is just marketing speak. It sure would help raise the public image of the FAA and Boeing slightly if they put their money (family?) where their mouth is.

inquirerofsorts• 6 years ago

This seems like an excellent gofundme cause, I'll chip in for him and his family to go cross-continental while happily smiling for the cameras.

capableweb7• 6 years ago

What? How is funding a executive and the current administrator of the FAA a good cause? Now I know people in general like capitalism, but to fund the very people on the top with your money? He surely get free travels as the admin for the FAA, but if he doesn't, he can surely afford travelling many times over with his family without making a dent in his own economy.

Maybe your comment was sarcastic and I missed that. Sorry if that was the case.

cameldrv• 6 years ago

TBF He’s a former airline pilot and personally took the training for the MAX and flew one of the certification flights himself.

mprovost• 6 years ago

After a series of accidents in coal mines in China, bosses are required to spend a certain amount of hours each year underground or they face huge fines and losing their job.

cmcaine• 6 years ago

The regulation has yielded questionable results, however. Last month in Guangxi, mine bosses visited a pit for a routine inspection. Shortly after, seven assistants were promoted to managerial roles to complete their bosses' former obligation in the mine, according to local news reports.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/10/13/china.mining...

chosenbreed37• 6 years ago

After a series of accidents in coal mines in China, bosses are required to spend a certain amount of hours each year underground or they face huge fines and losing their job.

Sounds like an application of the Hammurabi code

yread• 6 years ago

It's not like every other MAX fell out of the sky. There were two accidents out of 42000 flights. 2/42000 is a decent risk to take if your job depends on it and absolutely terrible for normal everyday flying

capableweb7• 6 years ago

absolutely terrible for normal everyday flying

You're right. So I raise my bid: Instead of just putting him and his family on one flight, let's put them on one flight per day for a month.

DN1010• 6 years ago

Didn't he actually fly it himself as part of the process?

capableweb7• 6 years ago

Yes, in the video I linked he speaks about it, this is the full quote

After that, I flew the aircraft for about two hours to evaluate its handling qualities and the functionality of the flight control system. Now, based on all the activities that we've undertaken during the past 20 months, and my personal experience flying the aircraft, I can tell you now that I am 100 percent comfortable with my family flying on it

So, he done 2 hours of what pilots will do for more hours, every single day they work. He also haven't trusted other pilots, let's say from Ethiopian Airlines, with his family.

asciimov2• 6 years ago

Boeing needs to do some publicity stunts to get the public interested in flying on these. Best thing they could do I put their Board of Directors and their families one one and fly it around the world.

walls• 6 years ago

That's a good start, then they need to send it into the ocean.

The negligence of that group of individuals led to the deaths of over 300 people.

yk• 6 years ago

OP suggested they fly 737 Max

rootusrootus5• 6 years ago

If I were in charge of PR for Boeing, I'd do exactly the opposite. I'd quietly get them back into production and I'd happily pony up for every last plane to have the paint scheme altered so it didn't say MAX anywhere on it.

asciimov2• 6 years ago

That's what they are doing. The 787-Max 8 is being rebranded as the 787-8.

robotnikman• 6 years ago

Or have a stunt pilot fly some crazy maneuvers in one, pushing it to its limits.

They have actually done this with some of their other planes before.

yummypaint• 6 years ago

The fundamental reason these planes have killed so many people is because of structural problems at boeing and the FAA. Technical band-aids have fixed none of the factors that caused such an unconscionably unsafe aircraft to be produced and rammed through certification in the first place. Engineers are still taking a back seat to MBAs on critical design and safety decisions. Every step of the way in this saga Boeing has shown itself to be a bad faith actor unworthy of the public's trust. They know they are too big to fail, and are cynically exploiting their position.

MaxBarraclough• 6 years ago

They know they are too big to fail, and are cynically exploiting their position.

They aren't going to bust over this, sure, but this has still been a very costly black eye for them, no? Even if they get their FAA approval, I imagine fewer airlines will be buying Boeing. (Discounting the enormous impact of the pandemic, that is.)

drcross2• 6 years ago

Probably. And we all know what Boeing will prioritise to minimise these losses when faced with the chance of these two options: making a demonstratively better and safer plane which increases profits or reducing costs.

dingaling2• 6 years ago

I imagine fewer airlines will be buying Boeing.

Why? Plenty of airlines kept ordering the DC-10 after its grounding was lifted. If the aircraft is certificated it's good to buy, in business terms.

Buying Boeing right now is an excellent idea for most airlines since discounts will be deep in order to get the order book filled.

I'll bet Ryanair will announce a big top-up order soon.

raverbashing• 6 years ago

Just to be clear: No, it is not cleared to resume flights yet, airlines still have to approve their supplementary 737MAX training with the FAA, and they have to take the planes out of storage, which requires some maintenance work.

So no MAX planes flying immediately. But soon.

cm21872• 6 years ago

Plus I think air traffic was picking up in the US, but in Europe, with all the new lockdowns, there cannot be a huge appetite to get those planes out of storage.

interestica• 6 years ago

The storage/maintenance issue is of greatest concern to me. It's an easy way to cut corners for smaller airlines during a pandemic. And if a plane goes down due to faults in that process, Boeing may again see criticism if it just happens to be one of theirs (even if it was an airline maintenance fault). I really don't feel like flying for a while.

DennisP2• 6 years ago

Ok so who's going to build the travel site that helps you avoid riding a 737 Max?

I know the airlines can switch planes without notice, but it seems possible to improve your odds at least.

frutiger• 6 years ago

That site already exists: delta.com.

Kaibeezy• 6 years ago

Thanks for that. I feel better already.

LittlePeter• 6 years ago

You can look up the aircraft used for last 7 flights of a particular flight on flightradar24.com. The aircraft type serving a route typically stays fixed.

Additionally you can look up an airline's fleet on Wikipedia and avoid ones with the Max.

amyjess3• 6 years ago

Fly Spirit exclusively. They have an all-Airbus fleet.

kayoone• 6 years ago

This might be one of the safest planes now though.

kozak• 6 years ago

I would be 100% comfortable flying the MAX if they either added a third AoA sensor or removed MCAS altogether (introducing a new type). They did neither.

snarf212• 6 years ago

I also want ALL pilots trained on the differences on this plane. It is not the same as a 737 and we need to stop pretending it is. People should be in jail over this.

DangitBobby• 6 years ago

Training is required to my understanding.

JumpCrisscross2• 6 years ago

I would be 100% comfortable flying the MAX if they either added a third AoA sensor or removed MCAS altogether

You prefer a plane that stalls?

salex89• 6 years ago

MCAS is not there to prevent stalls, it's there to make the MAX fly like the NG.

rootusrootus5• 6 years ago

The MCAS tries to help save a plane that has already gotten in a bad situation. To need it, the pilots have already let the plane get into a dangerous flight regime, your odds of recovery at that point even without MCAS are not ideal.

kube-system2• 6 years ago

All planes stall. If you are type certified to fly the aircraft, you know how not to do that.

MCAS was a type certification workaround, not a stall workaround.

comeonseriously• 6 years ago

My cynical take is they know they're going to get the planes back in the air eventually, so do it during a pandemic so when one does go down again it will presumably have fewer casualties.

neom• 6 years ago

FAA, EASA, Transport Canada and ANAC have all not only re-certified the planes but also checked all each others work. I'm sure the 737 Max is as safe as any other plane to fly in.

What's still troubling to me is that the FAA was allowing Boeing to parlay it's way into 2017 using 1967 certifications.

"The 737 was first certified by the FAA in 1967. Like every new 737 model since then, the MAX has been approved partially with the original requirements and partially with more current regulations, enabling certain rules and requirements to be grandfathered in. Chief executive Dai Whittingham of the independent trade group UK Flight Safety Committee disputed the idea that the MAX was just another 737, saying, "It is a different body and aircraft but certifiers gave it the same type rating."

eaandkw• 6 years ago

Just understand that the 737 Max was approved by the same government that tried running an election. Thanks but nope.

capableweb7• 6 years ago

Agree fully. While the US never been 100% trustworthy, the election of Donald Trump, the handling of the pandemic, the handling of the 737 Max fiasco and the handling of this years election are very embarrassing and has made the trust hit rock bottom for the nation.

dariusj18• 6 years ago

What do you mean? Elections are run by the states, individually, in the US.

jug• 6 years ago

I honestly don't think an unstable airframe 100% relying on proper pilot education synchronized with software feels great. But I must also admit that I'm not sure if this is the norm nowadays as aircraft keep being pushed for higher efficiency (and the Max simply had poor education and software), or if this indeed is a very special aircraft.

wil421• 6 years ago

Pilots have been relying on software to fly commercial planes for ages.

When a pilot is given clearance to land they punch numbers into the flight computer corresponding to the airport and approach. The plane will automatically line up with the correct runway. The glideslope will also tell the plane where it needs to be as it is descending.

The planes are also able to land themselves. Pilots are there to make people feel comfortable and handle rare edge cases. They will be monitoring the autopilot at all times.

drcross2• 6 years ago

I think Op was more referring to fly by wire.

rootusrootus5• 6 years ago

Now the question is ... how long are people's memories? This isn't the first time Boeing has been in this position, and they came back just fine.

My guess is that people will forget very quickly. The planes will be rebranded to de-emphasize the MAX name, and flying will return to normal in 2021. Boeing will benefit from the cluster of a year 2020 has been. People have had plenty of distractions since the crashes.

samsa• 6 years ago

I for one will continue my post-737 Max strategy of only flying Delta (Airbus). Not that I fly often.

dingaling2• 6 years ago

Delta have been in talks to take some of the stored, unallocated 737 Max ( 'whitetails' ) to replace their MD-95 / 717 fleet.

hourislate• 6 years ago

Boeing has an interesting relationship with many Agencies and the US Government. They're like part of the Family. Their failures are overlooked and even rewarded. The MAX could crash again and the circus will continue, they will pretend to fix it and move on. Their Starliner Space Craft was a failure and they were given more Government funds and time. People should have went to jail, massive fines or Boeing should have been forced to scrap the entire fleet of 737 MAX and never allowed to create an abomination like that again.

This Companies products are designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys.

bmking• 6 years ago

I won't fly on it and I don't care how safe it is. The precedent it sets is terrifying. I know people say Boeing got a "black eye" from it, but in reality getting out of this that easy sets them up to a dangerous advantage over competitors in my perspective. Competitors can't compete on safe terms and will have to reduce safety to stay competitive, which ignites a very bad spiral...

dreamcompiler4• 6 years ago

I wouldn't mind flying on it if I was the pilot, because I'd know how to disconnect the stupid MCAS and fly the damned plane. But as a passenger I have no idea how well the pilot has been trained or whether he/she has sense enough to disconnect the MCAS and rely on piloting skills.

Although in reality it's kind of hard to imagine any qualified pilot missing the 737Max memo, so I'm probably awfulizing.

It's still a poorly-designed plane built by a poorly-managed company with its flaws spackled over by software, and that alone makes me want to avoid it.

alkonaut• 6 years ago

I’m 100% happy to fly on it if both the US and EU authorities deem it safe. Has the EASA said anything yet?

detaro• 6 years ago

EASA said in September that they'll likely lift the ban this month.

zero_deg_kevin• 6 years ago

I’ll fly it as soon as we’ve fixed the legal/regulatory issues that led to its initial certification. Until the process is fixed, I refuse to accept its conclusions.

Boeing 737 Max Is Cleared by FAA to Resume Flights

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