Apple Silicon M1 Macs do not support eGPUs

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/10/apple-silicon-m1-macs-do-not-support-egpus/

by MobileVet • 6 years ago

81 102 6 years ago

lathiat• 6 years ago

Also only a single external display (6K@60Hz) for the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro as per the tech specs, which is a deal breaker for me. The Mac Mini supports one on thunderbolt also and a second at 4K 60Hz that has to be on the HDMI port.

https://www.apple.com/au/macbook-pro-13/specs/

“Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display in millions of colours and: One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz”

rowanG0774• 6 years ago

WTF. That's insane. Instant dealbreaker.

rbanffy4• 6 years ago

Those people can still get an Intel-based Mac. For me, the dealbreaker is the 16GB memory limit - it's too little for comfort right now and I assume a 32 or 64GB machine is what it would take to carry me for the next five years or so.

lastofthemojito• 6 years ago

The memory limit was the dealbreaker for me, but I've seen people mention several others for their uses cases - no eGPUs, weak multi-monitor support out-of-the-box, etc.

Apple obviously knows that a lot of people rely on those power-user features, so I'm sure at some point you'll be able to buy an ARM Mac with 128GB RAM that you can hook 6 monitors up to.

I do think starting at the low end makes sense for Apple though. These machines will sell mostly to everyday folks who just use a handful of common apps - I wouldn't be surprised if Safari is the #1 app used on these machines. That gives Apple a start to this transition, without the reputational hit that might have occurred if they sold a bunch of machines to power users right away. We'll whine a little bit that the machines weren't what we wanted, and then we'll just wait for the M1X machines. But that's better than if we all bought M1X MacBook Pros yesterday and then were disappointed when a couple of crucial apps didn't work yet. This "flattens the curve" of application incompatibility reports if you will.

coldtea4• 6 years ago

I'd say that's an exaggeration. Hannibal Lecter is insane.

An entry-level laptop not supporting dual 4K screens (for whatever reason) sounds more tame, especially if the vendor has statistics that show that a tiny minority use theirs with such a setup even in the Intel version that does support it...

The 16GB max memory is another problem, but again mostly not for the kind of users the machine is intended for.

m-p-3• 6 years ago

I'm wondering if a DisplayLink docking station like the Dell D6000 would support more, if they manage to get the drivers working for it (or if Apple integrates DisplayLink support natively, which I doubt will happen).

nhumrich• 6 years ago

Apple has never supported Displaylink or even the DisplayPort 1.2 spec that allows daisy chaining using MST

m463• 6 years ago

We're not the target market.

I suspect what macs may become to many of us is the trusted machine we buy for child/spouse/parent, then run off to our linux machine.

I was going to say windows for games, but it seems I wasn't paying attention and linux machines run lots of games well nowadays.

Shivetya• 6 years ago

I really hope some of the limitations we are seeing with the M1 chip being from a slow roll out to the new technology and not some sign of a new wall.

the biggest concern to me is the on die memory. while nice from a performance perspective I do not understand how they will do this going forward for true Pro models where users want 64g or even more memory. I also await their on dGPU solution.

A few users have also commented on the lack of ports and while I have not dug into this, are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip?

capableweb3• 6 years ago

I think you (and users like you) are simply not the target customer for Apple anymore. They used to aim for the professional market segment, where people are using multiple displays, need external GPU for creative work and other external gear, and computers that don't throttle their CPU that easily.

But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.

physicsguy2• 6 years ago

Bit of a problem if you want to write iPhone or Mac apps though...

ericmay2• 6 years ago

Overreaction much? Last I checked the vast majority of their devices are sold with Intel chipsets. So if having multiple displays while running your MacBook Air for "professional work" is a deal-breaker then you can just get a different Mac. M2 chips and later will obviously support multiple external displays. Not everyone needs to be an early adopter. Sheesh.

As a "professional", getting a PC is a deal breaker. It's not a Mac. It doesn't run macOS. That's the whole point.

NovemberWhiskey2• 6 years ago

But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.

Was the new Mac Pro not 'professional' enough for you? Up to 28 core CPU, 1.5 TB of RAM, capable of driving six 6K monitors and so on? Even the iMac Pro is absurdly overpowered for 'casual' usage.

d3nj4l• 6 years ago

are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip?

Yes, in the unveiling video they showed the thunderbolt controller as one of the things they'd put in the SoC. I'm not sure if this is reflected in the documentation, but in the video itself it was pretty clear.

warp• 6 years ago

I wonder if it would be feasible to release a product with different classes of memory. So you'd have the 8GB or 16GB in the M1 chip + an extra 48 GB elsewhere one the board.

Obviously the M1 memory would be faster, but e.g. Xbox series X has 16GB memory of which 10GB is considerably faster than the remaining 6GB.

So I guess it becomes a software challenge then... can they make the necessary changes to MacOS to manage different classes of memory efficiently?

rbanffy4• 6 years ago

Xeon Phi's had that - up to 16GB of ridiculously fast memory in-package and the ability to drive external memory at more pedestrian speeds.

IIRC the 16GB could be configured as an "L4 cache" for the rest of the memory.

I assume the same approach could be taken.

OTOH, it shouldn't be too complicated to just add more memory dies to the package as higher densities become available.

anentropic• 6 years ago

Yes the Thunderbolt controller etc are integrated into the SoC of the M1

Yesterday's models just replace the Air and lowest spec Pro

Seems likely that next year or so there would be an "M1X" chip with more RAM to support the higher end Pro models - the 16" and rumoured 14", hopefully both with four ports

gameswithgo2• 6 years ago

32gb l4 cache + however much normal ram?

hocuspocus3• 6 years ago

I also await their on dGPU solution.

Genuine question from someone who doesn't know hardware architecture that well:

It seems clear that we'll see non-PoP variants of their SoC's, for instance to support multiple RAM configurations in the high-end models.

However, at this point, if Apple's own GPU scales well, should we except 3rd party dGPU at all? Can't Apple ship SoCs with multiple times the M1 core count and graphics units, package 8 or 16GB of fast memory (GDDR or HBM), and call it a day? They're going to push their own software stack anyway, why bother with AMD GPUs fabbed on a previous generation TSMC process.

alisonkisk3• 6 years ago

Dedicated/external GPUs are 10x as powerful as internal ones. Apple doesn't have a miracle technology that can make a fanless 2080 Ti. AMD and Nvidia arent stopping improving cards just because M1 exists

wmf• 6 years ago

In theory there's nothing stopping Apple from making a large single die that contains a desktop-class CPU and desktop-class GPU. There are also rumors that Apple is designing their own "Lifuka" discrete GPU that would presumably be a larger version of the same design that they use in their SoCs.

gameswithgo2• 6 years ago

i dont think the memory is on die, its just chiplets on the same substrate ala ryzen.

gumby6• 6 years ago

This is correct. One distinction is that AFAICT they are not stacked, a decision that improves the thermals immensely.

einarfd• 6 years ago

It looks like what Apple did was take their cellphone Arm processors. Do the minimal changes to get it to work in a laptop, and jammed that into laptops they already had. Which seems to me, to be the right strategy, but you do then end up with some weird limitations. I expect these issues to be sorted in the future generations of Apple silicon laptops.

stuff4ben• 6 years ago

Yeah, like most first gen Apple gear, it's probably wise to hold off until they work the kinks out. That being said, my MacBook Air is getting a little long in the tooth so I may upgrade sooner rather than later.

alistairSH2• 6 years ago

I'm torn between a refurb Intel-based MBA or a new M1-based MBA. Or making a leap over to the 12" iPad Pro.

gutnor• 6 years ago

That's also why they updated their large sales volume, entry level to average hardware.

That will give them loads of data to smooth out the kinks out of Rosetta and the rest of software chain while having enough time to work on the M2.

I expect the first "real" Apple silicon hardware will be in November 2021 staring iMac and MBP 16.

Then 2022/2023 for the MacPro where Apple really goes all out, deprecate the last of their x86 line up but at this stage we are at the M4 and nobody cares anymore.

wlesieutre3• 6 years ago

In terms of core count (4 performance cores, 4 efficient cores, 8 GPU cores) it’s the tier of hardware used in the iPad Pro, except those are currently based on the A12 instead of the A14.

But yeah, I agree they must have a roadmap past these limitations. When we get a 16” MBP I’d bet on it having more RAM and 4 thunderbolt ports. They’ve launched the low end machines with M1 first because this is a first step in the M-processors, and it’s the first time they’ve had any sort of thunderbolt controller with this architecture.

Makes me wonder if any of these changes will make their way back to the iPad Pro. Right now they’re USB-C without thunderbolt, but the new iPad Air is getting awfully close to the iPad Pro’s territory. Thunderbolt support and being able to drive a 6K display would be an interesting differentiator.

seotut2• 6 years ago

But I assume the SoC or the processor itself does have PCIe expansion ports, right? Internal GPUs should in theory work should the part be sold by itself.

verroq• 6 years ago

I doubt they’d implement PCIe since they don’t need that for their baked in GPU to talk to their baked in CPU.

avian• 6 years ago

The slides shows an external "Thunderbold controller" chip. Seems like something they would have hanging off a PCIe bus.

crgwbr• 6 years ago

The slides explicitly mentioned PCIe support. They just don’t make any M1 machines with standard slots yet.

solarkraft• 6 years ago

The iPhone talks to its storage through NVMe, which is based on PCIe, suggesting to me that they already have the infrastructure.

webmobdev• 6 years ago

Unless Apple starts selling some overpriced PCIe devices, don't hold your hopes up on this. Ram is soldered / integrated into the SoC. Tomorrow even the SSD will be (if it isn't already). Ultimately you will not be able to upgrade anything, just like your iPhone or iPad.

floatingatoll• 6 years ago

Apple Silicon has not yet been made available in a Mac Pro enclosure (where PCIe internal GPUs could be used). We can only guess what the story will be when it is, as no statement has been made by Apple either way.

jmuguy3• 6 years ago

That's distressing to hear. For many months I struggled with performance issues and throttling on my Macbook Pro (15 inch, mid 2017). I went down a bunch of rabbit holes, messing with Time Machine backup, paranoia about specific apps pegging the CPU. The issue with one side of the thunderbolt ports running hotter than the other, and maybe that was causing the system to heat up to the point of throttling.

Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both. This apparently strains the integrated GPU, heats up the system, and caused the throttling. As ridiculous as it was to purchase an external enclosure and video card - that solved the issue. Now the system runs flawlessly.

masklinn• 6 years ago

Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both.

M1 (or at least the macbooks) only supports a single external display, problem solved!

rickyc091• 6 years ago

This problem still occurs with the latest MBPs even with one 4k monitor. As you mentioned, it's a heat issue. Once I turn on the AC, it starts to pick up speed again.

alisonkisk3• 6 years ago

It's far worse on the new ones (18W vs 8W) and the problem occurs on almost all monitors, even 2560x1440.

alisonkisk3• 6 years ago

The integrated GPU isn't the problem. The MBP only uses the dGPU for external monitors. The problem is that the dGPU driver/firmware/whatever is broken so it runs at a minimum of 8W even when there's no work to do, overloading the thermals.

The 2019 16" MPB made this problem far worse, raising the minimum dGPU to 18W, making external displays almost completely unusable for more than 1hr at a time unless you put the laptop aside in an external cooling solution (stand and fans) where you can't ergonomically use the integrated keyboard.

jmuguy3• 6 years ago

That makes me glad I figured things out, and got the eGPU, because I was really close to buying a newer model in hopes that it would fix things.

I really don't understand how this isn't more of an issue for Apple. Surely theres a lot of pros out there using external monitors. Two external monitors is pretty standard - in my previous life as an IT guy we set that up for probably half of our clients.

wil4212• 6 years ago

How do you know there is performance throttling?

I run a 4K monitor, 1440p gaming monitor, and the internal monitor without issues. Lots of scaling on all of them.

My windows computer has an issue with the 4K monitor. The cursor has notice ticks and other weird refresh issues. I even bought a 2070 and the issues remain.

What GPU enclosure do you use?

jmuguy3• 6 years ago

I could see "kernel_task" running and eating up CPU, in an attempt to throttle the system and cool things off. At least that's my understanding of it. Basically it came down to process of elimination, although I'm sure someone more experienced in the various fan and temperature readings on the Mac could have diagnosed it sooner.

It completely stopped once I ran the 4k monitors at native resolution, and when I got the eGPU setup.

The enclosure I purchased is the Razer Core X Chroma. One silver lining is it basically acts like a dock - has USB, wired NIC, and powers the system. Video card is a Radeon RX 580.

GeekyBear2• 6 years ago

I'm kind of shocked that they got an integrated Thunderbolt controller working as fast as they did, even if version one doesn't support every feature.

Apple is shipping an integrated Thunderbolt controller before Intel does with Tigerlake.

vetinari• 6 years ago

Intel Tiger Lake machines are already being sold. XPS 13 9310, for example.

GeekyBear2• 6 years ago

Well, what do you know. PC Magazine just reviewed it yesterday.

wil4212• 6 years ago

Thunderbolt is one of the things keeping me on intel for now. I am happy Apple added it but not sure Apple Silicon can handle the video editing and transcoding at the speed I’d like it to.

hajile• 6 years ago

Ice Lake had integrated Thunderbolt last year.

gumby6• 6 years ago

I'm actually excited by this aspect, even if incomplete. This means it can come to future iPads as well.

bartvk• 6 years ago

Yeah, I always figured this would be one of the major obstacles to overcome. In hindsight, it's now clear why there are so much Apple people in these USB-C standards documents.

Do we know whose IP they use? And is it integrated on die, or integrated in the package of the SoC?

jmull• 6 years ago

I wouldn’t read too much into this, at least not at this point. Same for some of the other technical limitations.

The Apple slotted these M1 macs into the entry-level position for their lower-end models. One thing that lets them do is focus on fundamentals of this migration first and take on more sophisticated use-cases over time.

Support for more RAM, more external displays, etc. is coming.

dev_tty012• 6 years ago

I agree this will improve, but I think the previous commenter was referring to these particular models.

I was considering the 13 inch until i noticed only 2 Thunderbolt/USB 4 ports. There is a $100 discount from the equivalently configured Intel Pro. I guess that is for the external USB4 hub you'll need. The lack of a 32 GB option also gives me pause.

Looks like I am holding out for the 16 inch with the M1X...

selsta• 6 years ago

Is this really surprising? Apple said the transition is going to take 2 years. As predicted, they only updated their entry level devices yesterday.

More pro machines (e.g. 16" MBP) will probably get announced Q1 - Q2 2021. These will also have more available RAM, support more displays, etc.)

aldanor2• 6 years ago

It almost feels like they've intentionally limited this batch to 16G so that next year they can say "We've Quadrupled the RAM!"

pwinnski• 6 years ago

This seems very, very much like a first generation product, but I hope future iteration of their M-chip SoCs support more RAM, more ports, eGPUs, etc.

I'm pretty sure they'll support more RAM and more ports and more displays in the future, but I'm worried about the eGPU support. Pulling a GPU into the SoC might make them think they've got that covered, but it won't be enough.

whywhywhywhy• 6 years ago

Showing Cinema4D front and centre during your reveal without being able to take advantage of high end gpus is strange.

gumby6• 6 years ago

Not if your objective is to demonstrate that your onboard GPU is up to the task.

sschueller• 6 years ago

This and the eventual lockout of non-signed apps makes this a no go.

I'm not supporting a device that will give the EU the power to force removal of apps that don't have an encryption back door [1]. Same goes for apple's app store. At least I can still side load android apps for now.

Thanks to Apple and everyone copying these "for security" features we are rapidly loosing our democracy and freedoms. 1984 is already here and most want it.

Sadly no one seems to realize that in these last few acts of terrorism in France and Austria the purpatraitors where known. In fact some where already in prison before. Reading their IMs wouldn't have made any difference with the amount that was known and the incompetent government bureaucracy. Killing encryption won't fix that.

[1] https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2020/cryptowars-2020

daxelrod• 6 years ago

Have you heard any additional news about "the eventual lockout of non-signed apps" on Apple Silicon? I'm curious if they announced anything besides the behavior we already know about in Big Sur.

chokeartist• 6 years ago

Your criticism is legitimate, and I am not buying a new Macbook with the M1 for the same reasons.

I will however say there is a legitimate, non-crippleware reason: Secure Boot (device boot/kernel integrity).

Before we had basic constructs like TPMs it was quite trivial to long-term rootkit a box or specifically a network security appliance.

Secure Boot with the keys in the hand of the owner of the hardware is a very useful tool to ensure you aren't silently running an owned kernel/etc.

But it is like any story: A useful tool immediately becomes a weapon.

Apple Silicon M1 Macs do not support eGPUs

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