Microsoft backs Epic in court filing

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53888087

by colinprince • 6 years ago

164 131 6 years ago

bbc.com

notafraudster• 6 years ago

Dupe of:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24253943 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24257455

Razengan2• 6 years ago

Does Microsoft allow any other stores on the Xbox?

What % do they take from game sales?

ameen• 6 years ago

Yup - physical stores such as GameStop, Bestbuy, Target, etc have been selling Xbox media for quite sometime.

djsumdog3• 6 years ago

That's true for games distributed via disc (I'm very glad the PS5 still has a disc option; I do not want to lose the used game market), but that's only for the big titles.

Independent developers don't have used game sales and still dependent on xbox, PS Store, Steam, Humble, GoG, etc.

criddell5• 6 years ago

That's not a very meaningful distinction. Microsoft still gets their cut and till approves every title. An independent XBox store would remove Microsoft from the loop.

If Epic wins in court (and I hope they do), then the consoles are next in line to be forced open.

jtsiskin2• 6 years ago

This is pretty funny because Xbox has the same store restrictions (impossible to install from another source, all games approved by them, takes a revenue percentage) Apple does.

addicted• 6 years ago

I know this is a popular rebuttal, but are video games consoles really comparable to phones, which are nothing but general purpose computers?

akersten3• 6 years ago

What is the difference between the capabilities of the console hardware and the phone hardware? The console hardware is actually more powerful. PS3's were used as general purpose computers until Sony removed OtherOS functionality.

This is nothing but defensive "don't sue us next" posturing by Microsoft. Consoles are just as general purpose as a phone. The only difference is the software veneer running on top.

Rebelgecko• 6 years ago

I don't see why video game consoles are any less general purpose computers than phones. Its easier to install Fedora on a PS3 than an iPhone

vernie• 6 years ago

The PS4, PS5, Xbox One and Xbox One Series X all run more or less the same type of AMD CPU & GPU. They all have HDMI And USB type A ports. They're much closer to a desktop PC than any smartphone.

Jtsummers4• 6 years ago

I think a case could be made for it, yes. The original Xbox was, in fact, a general purpose computer in disguise (barely, lots of people took advantage of that capability). There have been Linux versions released for PlayStation.

It's not like 80s and 90s consoles which were much more limited and more clearly streamlined to just play games (limited or no internal memory, limited input device support, though some of them supported keyboards and could even be hooked up to modems). The lock down on gaming consoles today is mostly artificial.

rpdillon2• 6 years ago

100% agree. Game consoles are entertainment, but our lives are run through our smartphone. It tracks our location, is required by many employers so you can run job-related apps, supports multiple financial activities like banking, investing, and payments, and acts as the primary 2FA device for many folks. Comparing the capabilities of the hardware is beside the point: it's about the scope of the intended/expected usage.

DivisionSol• 6 years ago

Yes. Game consoles are just as much “general purpose computers” as phones are. Volume and ubiquity doesn’t change that (modern) game consoles have the architecture required to run anything you want, even easier than needing to compile for Arm through Xcode.

One could argue that any console pre-CD days were specialized computing devices that required additional circuitry to run (cartridges.) But in my mind, any console that downloads contents of a storage medium to RAM and executes it is general purpose. You could make Spreadsheets for the Xbox or PlayStation or Switch, if you so chose.

makomk• 6 years ago

The current generation of video games consoles are all x86-based systems with Radeon graphics, USB, Bluetooth, HDMI out, etc - they're basically full-on desktop class PCs with a few minor changes and a lot of lockdown. One of the big console hacking groups even managed to get the Linux versions of Steam and Portal 2 running on the PS4, with some slight hacks to the graphics drivers to deal with the slightly modified GPU.

firemanx• 6 years ago

This was mentioned in one of the other threads about this - but you can purchase XBox games outside the Microsoft Store platform just fine - Best Buy, Amazon, Walmart, even resell on eBay, and Microsoft doesn't take a cut.

Apple does not allow for this model.

hobofan2• 6 years ago

I may be misinformed, but I'm pretty sure that Microsoft also takes a cut from physically distributed XBox games.

EDIT: Apparently during the Xbox 360 days, that was ~20%. Couldn't find any newer numbers.

Retric• 6 years ago

Microsoft still get’s their ~20% for games sold in other stores. So, in terms of Microsoft’s profit on XBox those sales channels are closer to downloading over WiFi vs cellular modems.

They also prevent other digital retailers from selling on the XBox which is very relevant for in game purchases.

TheRealSteel• 6 years ago

That isn't true at all, Microsoft absolutely takes a cut from physical game sales, and also places arbitrary restrictions on what can be sold and requires pre approval for everything. That's literally the business model of the Xbox.

It's no different to the iPhone at all. It's just less controversial because people think of their phone like a mini computer but always expected consoles to be closed.

CobrastanJorji• 6 years ago

That applies to many devices, but try using any of those games in your brand new Xbox One S All-Digital Edition.

threeseed9• 6 years ago

Nintendo takes 40-60% depending on their level of investment.

Whether it's bought in a store or not is irrelevant.

m0xte• 6 years ago

Not necessarily the case. The newer xboxes don’t come with removable media and the bought keys are tied to your Microsoft account.

The whole thing is slippery mass of corporate worms trying to fuck each other over for market control and the only losers are the end users. I want nothing to do with any of them any more.

pwinnski3• 6 years ago

We're talking about a free game with in-app purchases. Where it comes from initially isn't very relevant.

Microsoft takes 30% of IAP.

wayneftw2• 6 years ago

You think game consoles are nearly as important to society as smart phones are, or as ubiquitous?

jtsiskin2• 6 years ago

No. But having the same software distribution monopoly on their device which Epic is challenging seems hypocritical to me.

izacus3• 6 years ago

First of all, I can buy Xbox games in many stores - GameStop, MediaMarkt, etc. etc.

iOS devices (especially iPads) are marketed as general purpose computers and as such should be compared with Windows and Linux where software authors can:

- Distribute their app without approval of the platform owner.

- Can freely communicate about pricing and availability of their software.

Apple forbids even talking about lower prices or other platforms, essentially forcing us developers to mislead and misinform customers of their platforms. It's deeply against the principles of a free market competition.

robertlagrant3• 6 years ago

Sigh. Various comments already pointing out console vendors also take a cut from physical game sales.

I don't know where the "especially iPads" comes from - they are the only ones that could come even close to not being called a watch or a phone. What else apart from iPads are you talking about?

threeseed9• 6 years ago

If you walk into a retail store to buy a game do you see a flyer on the game advertising to buy it cheaper at a different store ?

Do you actually think they would tolerate this sort of behaviour ? Because they absolutely do not.

partiallypro• 6 years ago

Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life. A gaming console is not. Apple also sells their products at a HUGE profit margin of 30%+ where Microsoft/Sony often sell their gaming hardware at a loss and make it up in software fees.

threeseed9• 6 years ago

Phones aren't really a "luxury" anymore, they are a necessity to life

Tell that to the billions of people without one.

And interestingly with us in Australia being under a mandatory COVID-19 stay at home order I have not used my phone in over a week. I can do everything it does on my laptop just fine e.g. messaging, banking etc.

Food, shelter etc are necessities. Phone is just a nice to have.

AnIdiotOnTheNet• 6 years ago

There are vendors of phones that are not Apple. Trying to play it off like Apple is some kind of monster denying people life necessities for the sake of profit is pretty damned stupid even by HN standards.

thekyle• 6 years ago

I think it comes down to the way they're marketed towards consumers. Video game consoles are marketed as appliances that do only one thing (play video games). Apple markets iDevices as "your next computer".

romanoderoma10• 6 years ago

But you can still use developer tools on Windows

sjroot2• 6 years ago

For context, the Microsoft Store platform takes a 5% fee compared to Apple’s 30%. https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2018/05/07/a-new-...

This isn’t super surprising. Microsoft is desperate to get people to develop for the Windows platform and this obviously an incentive that developers will find attractive.

koolba• 6 years ago

That’s peanuts considering the credit card fee itself is going to be 3% as I’d expect there is significantly more fraud for in game purchases than a vanilla shop.

RaptorJ• 6 years ago

If MS wants to peel developers away from the apple store, why wouldn't they support apple being allowed to maintain their onerous percentage?

Jtsummers4• 6 years ago

The best outcome for MS would be if the Apple App Store itself were to become one of several app stores on iOS devices. Then MS could build out the pipeline (largely already possess it) to have their own MS App Store on iOS and Android, paired with their development tools which, really, are topnotch. They wouldn't necessarily need to undercut Apple's percentage, but just reduce friction for development and deployment across OSes.

nabla9• 6 years ago

Competition law does not apply to everyone equally, or every market equally.

Smaller the player, smaller the market, less they have restrictions.

twodave• 6 years ago

Are Windows PC gaming and the XBOX line in such a decline that they could be described as desperate? I really doubt it, but I'm having trouble finding data to back up either argument.

freeone3000• 6 years ago

Most applications run on Windows are not distributed through the Microsoft Store.

cptskippy4• 6 years ago

I believe he was referring to the Store on Windows platforms, not Xbox platforms. The Windows Store has games but Microsoft never made a fight against Steam the way Epic has.

ppseafield• 6 years ago

This is only for the Microsoft Store, and it was 30% as well before it was dropped last year. I doubt their app store for Windows 10 devices pulls in very much since "side loading" has been the default distribution model for decades.

mcintyre1994• 6 years ago

The 5% split doesn’t cover Xbox. I’m pretty sure Microsoft’s share of PC game sales is really small, not PC gaming itself but the Microsoft share. As an example this article talks about Steam vs Epic with Steam described as the clear market leader: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/16/18334865/epic-games-store...

staticman2• 6 years ago

Pretty much nobody wants to buy games from the Windows Store instead of Steam. Even Microsoft has moved to selling their first party games on Steam.

Oddly enough, part of the unpopularity of the windows store comes from frequent reports of instability in the performance of the windows store software. You would think the world's biggest software company could figure out how to create a digital store that's as stable as their competition, but apparently they cannot.

IdoRA• 6 years ago

The new fee structure is applicable to purchases made on Windows 10 PC, Windows Mixed Reality, Windows 10 Mobile and Surface Hub devices and excludes purchases on Xbox consoles.

(italics added for emphasis)

hn_check• 6 years ago

https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-is-apparently-cancelin...

Note that Microsoft is not backing Epic in their court case against Apple, because that would be quite the glass house given the xbox (which is a 70/30 split, with virtually identical restrictions as the App Store). Instead they are merely backing them for the injunction to prevent Epic from losing immediate access to development tools.

Razengan2• 6 years ago

Starting later this year, consumer applications (not including games)

samfisher83• 6 years ago

You don't need to go through Microsoft store you can just run your application.

Negitivefrags• 6 years ago

They take 5% if the customer gets to your app via a direct link. But they take 15% if the customer gets to your app via their store.

This actually aligns incentives really well. If the user came to you because of the marketing you directly did, you don't pay much more than if you had organised the sale directly on your website.

But Microsoft is incentivised to attract people to buying apps through their shop experience directly, and if they do, they get rewarded for it. These are customers that you might not otherwise have attracted yourself, so it's not unreasonable to pay a higher amount for them.

I think it's a really great model and I wish that other stores would adopt it.

parliament322• 6 years ago

Outdated[1], MS takes mostly 30%, occasionally 15% in edge cases[2]... see page 14: https://query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE...

[1]https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-is-apparently-cancelin...

[2]if your app is 1) not a "game", 2) not on xbox or win8, and 3) not purchased in the "for business" or "for education" store

dylan6042• 6 years ago

2) Who is releasing content for Win8?

gamblor9563• 6 years ago

Those edge cases describe most of the software sold through the MS store...

zxcvbn4038• 6 years ago

Quite a change, I remember when Microsoft could kill software just by announcing it intended to develop a competing product. If you had told me then that one day I'd be using a Mac for daily work I would have not believed it.

djsumdog3• 6 years ago

We should view MS with scrutiny due to their history (trying to compete and kill Linux; the SCO bullshit, etc.), but they are the underdog in this particular case and the market has changed quite a bit. I wouldn't think of Microsoft holistically.

That being said, this isn't the underdogs vis big players. These are big players, taken on other bigger players, and just kinda incidentally helping a lot of the smaller players ... for now .. but this could just as easily turn again if one of them gets back on top.

echelon2• 6 years ago

You can install whatever software you want on Windows. It isn't locked down to just the Microsoft Store.

There's a giant gulf between Apple's tyrannical platform and the rest of the world.

schrodinger• 6 years ago

You can do that on a Mac too… the obsolete Windows Phone would be a better comparison.

muststopmyths• 6 years ago

For further context, they used to take 30% on the Phone and Desktop store when they launched with Windows/Phone 8. The only reason they take less now is because those were miserable failures.

And no, no one finds the Windows store attractive.

lern_too_spel• 6 years ago

For an apples to apples comparison, Windows Phone allowed sideloading apps, so you could avoid the avoid paying a giving a cut to the store. The sideloading process was convoluted, but it worked.

giancarlostoro2• 6 years ago

For those who missed it this is the quote that matters here:

In an escalation, Apple then said it would pull Epic's access to developer tools on iOS and Mac.
But Microsoft said this would damage a "critical technology" for many third-party game creators.
That is because Epic also owns the Unreal Engine - a tool widely used by developers from other studios to build games, virtual-reality VR experiences and special effects in major television shows and films.
Microsoft uses the technology itself.

YIKES, how much longer is this going to go on?

stingraycharles2• 6 years ago

I may be missing the point, but does this imply that no games based on the Unreal engine could be developed for Mac anymore, as Epic themselves will be unable to develop for it / support it?

yegle• 6 years ago

It means they cannot fix breakages before a new version of iOS/macOS is generally available, and they won't have access to the new ARM CPU devkit that's critical to port their engine to ARM based macOS.

chipgap98• 6 years ago

I think it's more that Epic wouldn't be able to make changes to Unreal Related applications they've published on their Apple developer account

coronadisaster• 6 years ago

Maybe the same length as that unix lawsuit way back when (SCO vs IBM)

throWaythxMod2• 6 years ago

Epic needs to offer a 30% discount for anyone who gets their content from their website.

And while I'm not sure if you can side load on Apple products, if you can't, don't offer your services on Apple products. Customers will move as they wakeup to their horrible business practices.

izacus3• 6 years ago

- Apple forbids people from buying content on their website.

- Apple forbids developers from mentioning that the content might be cheaper elsewhere.

So that won't work.

throWaythxMod2• 6 years ago

Kk, so my other answer. Refuse to develop for Apple.

eyesee• 6 years ago

- Apple forbids people from buying content on their website.

Not quite. Apple forbids directing users to a web site from within your app to sidestep in-app purchases. If you offer any digital purchases through your app, they must use IAP.

gruez• 6 years ago

AFAIK they did something like that before (ie. they offered x% off coupon, paid out of their own pocket), and several publishers adjusted their pricing up/down so their games wouldn't be eligible for the discount. I believe the reason was that they didn't want to "devalue" their games. random source: https://www.vg247.com/2020/05/18/the-witcher-3-epic-store-10...

wayneftw2• 6 years ago

I wonder what car manufacturing companies think about all of this?

In my state and I think in much of the US, we're not allowed to buy directly from the car manufacturer. I never liked that law because I don't like car dealerships, but now I'm beginning to see why those laws that keep car dealerships in business might have passed.

djsumdog3• 6 years ago

Tangential: right to repair laws in some places state that a consumer should be able to buy any tool, part or manual that is available to a dealership.

Tesla manages to get around selling parts to consumers ... because they don't have any dealerships.

stingraycharles2• 6 years ago

In my state and I think in much of the US, we're not allowed to buy directly from the car manufacturer.

Huh, what, in what way is that law a good thing?

dylan6042• 6 years ago

If you're a dealership, it's an amazing thing.

This is why you cannot buy a Tesla in TX.

mikewhy• 6 years ago

Part of me wonders if this is Microsoft just trying to align with Epic, in the cast that the courts do side with Epic, who in turn use that ruling against Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo.

Okawari• 6 years ago

I wonder if it is because they believe that their cloud gaming platform will be more lucrative than XBox in a few years and think that not having to pay apple the 30% and still have access to the iOS userbase will be more profitable.

I for one wouldn't mind if this case ended up forcing Apple to loosen their restrictions in regards to sideloading and other app stores on the device.

A pipe dream, but one can hope.

EdwinLarkin• 6 years ago

I hope we can also get rid of VAT. I dont want to pay the 20% on everything because my government cant manage things more efficiently.

You say I should just move to a country with a lower VAT? Yeah not that easy.

I dont condone apple on what they are doing with their platform but you need to understand that Apple sets a standard and that standard costs money.

newbie578• 6 years ago

Full support for Msft and Epic! Time to bring the dictator (Apple) down. And when that day arrives, it will be a tragedy on HN since tears will be shed by Apple fanboys. Hint: You cannot support anti-competitive practices because you like your Mac :)

mandeeeeeep• 6 years ago

Microsoft seems to be doing everything they can to push everyone to writing platform agnostic software:

1. Game streaming, which opens the doors to app streaming

2. Progressive Web Apps, teaming with google to create a tool to publish them directly to the Android Play Store

3. At one point, they created tools to port iOS and Android apps to windows mobile

4. Investing in React Native and Xamarin

Personally, I am not a fan since today, the quality of these apps are really bad and give developers too much power. But seems Microsoft is trying to get a foothold to relaunch Windows Mobile again once more apps switch over

Microsoft backs Epic in court filing

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