Ford’s electric car engineers go crazy with 1,400hp Mustang Mach-E

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/07/check-out-this-bonkers-1400-horsepower-ford-mustang-mach-e/

by elsewhen • 6 years ago

85 145 6 years ago

raiyu• 6 years ago

You can make electric cars very fast if don't mind that they can run at full throttle only for a few minutes ;)

>a requirement was an hour of continuous use followed by an hour of high-speed charging, then another hour of continuous use.

Seems good enough for most people daily drivers

thisisnico• 6 years ago

This is good enough for a race track!

speedgoose• 6 years ago

As an average driver, I like to drift and burn a set of tires when I commute to the office.

clickbyclick• 6 years ago

Eventually, ALL automotive production records will be held by EVs, only question is when.

kmonsen2• 6 years ago

Not long range, unless you allow for gimmicks like changing batteries that will not be available for the general population.

reducesuffering2• 6 years ago

The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? Most ICE are at about ~450 mile range, Model S is at 400 now. There's going to be a lot of battery improvements over the next couple decades pushing EV range far past ICE.

Diederich3• 6 years ago

More specifically, it's range over time.

We made a recent long trip with our Tesla Model S, which has about a 325 mile max range. There were plenty of superchargers, but it takes time.

You also end up stopping a lot more than once every 300 miles, because the rate of charge up to 90% is very fast, but the last 10% is very slow. We usually ran down to between 50 and 100 miles of range, and charged it up to about 290-300 miles, which took between 15 and 20 minutes.

It's not terrible, but compared to a gas engine, it's a good bit slower over time.

On the upside, it forces you to have a more 'easy going' drive.

thesh4d0w• 6 years ago

I appreciate the dash shows the actual min/max cell voltages (min 3.96 max 4.01v in one of the pics)

robotresearcher• 6 years ago

What would you do with that information?

(not snark: I'm genuinely interested)

natch3• 6 years ago

Ford is really good at blowing smoke about EVs lately. Like their truck pull demo where the camera shot they released showed only one angle, leading to speculation that there was a massive power cord tether hidden behind the bulk of the truck.

But I appreciate that traditional car makers are finally getting it that people want EVs that are not just golf carts. Too bad this is just another demo but let’s hope they make some of it real.

anonymousCar• 6 years ago

First makes 5.9M cars per year and is planning 50k Mach e. That's 0.8% of their line electric.

VW seems to be the only major manufacturer that's really going all in on electric and it's only after wringing their hands from the emissions scandal.

The old automakers seem to only want to do this in the face of bankruptcy.

panpanna3• 6 years ago

Didn't Volvo say they would go 100% electric before 2023?

They are not as big as VW, but that sure should "all in" to me..

Sebb7672• 6 years ago

That's 0.8% of their line electric.

And that's probably what they expect to sell. Producing 5.9M electric cars is one thing (and that's not easy on its own), but selling them is the problem.

Kuinox• 6 years ago

Renault does have some electric vehicle.

hinkley4• 6 years ago

The cynic in me still thinks the EV1 was a honey pot engineered by GM to kill two birds with one stone.

One, get the government off their back. Two, round up all the 'whiners' lay half of them off and demoralize the rest.

It is said, with only a very small sense of irony, that the only vehicle to come from the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles was the Toyota Prius. See, Toyoda thought we were serious, was blocked from joining the partnership (Bush/Gore era protectionism at its finest) and built a brain trust to compete with what turned out to be a bluff. Detroit may be the biggest bunch of learned helplessness foot-draggers there is. It's too haaard. See? We can't do it.

kllrnohj6• 6 years ago

Like their truck pull demo where the camera shot they released showed only one angle, leading to speculation that there was a massive power cord tether hidden behind the bulk of the truck.

No, it was just a silly physics trick, same as Tesla's Cybertruck pulling the F-150 stunt (which was just because the cybertruck was heavier & therefore had a friction advantage, had nothing to do with being more powerful or anything like that).

As for the train, weighing 1.25 million pounds doesn't mean it took 1.25 million pounds of force to move it, not at all. Just like it doesn't take you ~150 lbs of force to move yourself forward on a bicycle. Wheels are pretty great, and so is a low rolling resistance. A train's steel wheels on a steel track mean super low rolling resistances, and estimates are the Ford only needed around 1875 pounds of force to move that 1.25 million pound train. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28506476/ford-electri...

That's well within the capacity of a bunch of vehicles, no trickery required.

jjeaff4• 6 years ago

1800 lbs of pulling force should be well within the ability of most all vehicles on the road, I think. As long as they have enough weight to keep traction.

natch3• 6 years ago

But that isn’t the part I suspect they faked.

I suspect they didn’t actually build a battery powered truck, not even a prototype or demo.

Instead they just bolted a big electric motor into an existing truck, rigged it up to the crankshaft, and wired it up to power. Lame, if true. But it’s just my suspicion and I don’t know if it’s true. It was clearly a PR stunt timed to take some of the limelight away from Tesla.

beamatronic2• 6 years ago

Good things happen when car engineers "go crazy"! Meaning, management lifts their BS restrictions.

panpanna3• 6 years ago

Some of the most successful projects I know started of as unsanctioned "skunkworks".

kllrnohj6• 6 years ago

Meaning, management lifts their BS restrictions.

Like needing to make money? Many of these cars never see production not because of "BS restrictions" but because they can't be feasibly produced for an amount that they think they could sell the car at. This is the equivalent of a hacky prototype. It has a value, and that value is endorsed by management as well.

xhrpost• 6 years ago

I wonder if the street racers and car mechanic hobbyists of the near future will become electrical engineers to effectively do the same thing. Instead of installing better spark plugs or cylinder heads, enthusiasts start playing with capacitor improvements and voltage tuning?

ChuckNorris895• 6 years ago

Maybe just with the software but with the hardware no way. On modern EVs it's too complex, miniaturized and tightly integrated to be able to play around.

Anyway, just like with Tesla, I expect that if you mess with the factory software to extract more features or performance you'd normally have to pay for, the manufacturer will void your warranty or lock you out of their charging networks.

The EV future doesn't look good for custom tuning.

kevin_thibedeau• 6 years ago

You replace that with aftermarket upgrades. Nobody is going to care that a Leaf "R-type" isn't stock.

roflchoppa• 6 years ago

People already retrofitting tesla motors inside of vintage Porsches, I’m sure as more EVs end up in junkyards more will make their way into speed junkies hands.

Personally if I could retrofit my 240z with an electric drivetrain I would, I just wanna smoke some Tesla’s off the line :)

bestouff• 6 years ago

ICE look way more complex than EV to me. More moving parts, more feedback loops. I wouldn't be surprised if enthusiasts were able to swap the controller for something else.

But then I perfectly know you are right about the general tendency of integrated and locked-in parts in engineering nowadays.

jessriedel2• 6 years ago

How much are electric cars limited by raw torque and power? My impression is that a stock Tesla (pricy, but far from "supercar" prices) already has enough torque that it can turn the wheels past the point where they lose traction even up to quite high speeds. (Anyone know what speed?) If so, then the car's performance in that regime is limited not by engine power but presumably by things like the aerodynamics, sophisticated anti-slip electronics, and chassis movement.

Judgmentality3• 6 years ago

What really limits electric vehicles for racing is weight and batteries. Weight is always bad, and batteries are heavy. And batteries can overheat, which means going into limp mode. The overheating seems to be getting solved relatively quickly, but the weight of batteries isn't going to come down drastically any time soon.

They're just different - electric is better in a lot of ways and gasoline is better in a lot of ways. I don't think you'll see electric cars doing endurance racing anytime soon.

KMnO4• 6 years ago

A lot, actually. Tesla batteries are capable of 1500A @ 350V (and much more on a temporary basis, ie Ludicrous mode), which is already 535kW ≈ 717 HP.

jdashg• 6 years ago

Not at high speeds! Or at least, not in a way that's unique to electric motors. ICEs use multiple gears, but it's a similar overall torque picture. (Try multiplying out ICE torque with its gear ratios some time!)

Torque is k*HP/rpm, whether electric or ICE. If you can slip the wheels you can go faster. It's well known in the supercar world that you can often do a great estimate of top speed based on HP alone, given how aero dominates at speeds above 100mph and these cars aren't wildly more drag-efficient than one-another.

kllrnohj6• 6 years ago

For raw 0-60 times a big "advantage" of the Teslas are actually their massive curb weight. There's no shortage of gas cars that can also spin their wheels at launch (or even after shifting to 2nd gear). The limiting factor for a launch is mostly friction, and you can get more friction by either increasing the tire's contact patch (such as wider tires) or by adding more weight. Yes that's now more weight you need to accelerate, but assuming you have enough power it's still a net-win.

That weight is terrible for all sorts of other reasons, but that massive ~4,900lb curb weight combined with all-wheel drive is a major factor in the Model S's 2.3 second 0-60 times.

AtlasBarfed3• 6 years ago

I've heard that EV motors need to be guardrailed to keep them from snapping the axles.

The axle strength on this thing must be crazy.

7 electric motors must be able to crank out torque.

m4632• 6 years ago

look at the youtube videos where tesla updated "track mode" for the model 3.

(people don't generally realize the model 3 performance is almost 500 hp)

newsclues• 6 years ago

After the drivetrain is perfected, will they become chemists and work on tire compounds?

gexla• 6 years ago

It would be interesting to see them pop up on a quarter mile drag strip. Probably they already have, I just haven't been to drag races for decades.

I remember them being quite the experience though. The eye burning fumes in the air. The sound so violent that you feel like the thing could turn the entire track into a crater. When the things took off you could feel your organs shaking.

Not sure you can replicate that experience with an electric car. More likely tastes change and maybe drag racing dies out. Those races were the pinnacle of the ICE experience for me though.

mikereedell• 6 years ago

I had the experience of getting an all access pass to an NHRA event at Bandimere in Colorado a few years back. I stood behind the start line, about 15 yards for most of the event. Being that close to a top fuel drag car at launch was a sensory experience: extreme noise even with plugs inside of over-ear protection, sound waves pushing me back, bits of rubber hitting my legs, and a little bit of "rain" from the water in the exhaust falling.

Animats• 6 years ago

The 1950s and 1960s were the heyday of the dragstrip. Look at movies of that period. They look so slow. Many production cars today could easily outrun "hot rods" of that period.

It's been a long time since power was the problem in racing. It's all about keeping the wheels on the ground now. If you're burning rubber, you're not getting max acceleration.

annoyingnoob2• 6 years ago

Seems like they'll run into 'right to repair' issues, where they'll need to replace much of the electronics to get the proper access.

Junk_Collector• 6 years ago

There is already a large market of jailbroken and aftermarket ECUs as well as alternative firmware for tractors because of this. If it gets popular and stays legal, people will find a way around it.

bob1029• 6 years ago

My next hobby car is going to be something purely mechanical. New cars are virtually impossible to work on and have mountains of compromises to deal with.

I am not enjoying having a computer constantly between me and the road. I also don't like the new lower bound for car weight due to all of the modern safety regulations. Even if you have a modern car with a ton of power, you can never truly compensate for the physics equation imposed by all of that weight.

For example: A 1988 Honda Civic weighs somewhere in the realm of 2000-2200 lbs. A 2020 model year weighs somewhere between 2700-3000 lbs. This makes a huge difference in how a car feels to drive, especially at extremes that are more likely to be explored by enthusiasts.

Something like a BMW M3 E30 would be a dream hobby car for me. There is a reason the 80s-90s model years are starting to go up in value. Car enthusiasts want that sweet spot of purely analog controls, but also with working factory A/C.

organsnyder• 6 years ago

It seems like that should be easier with an electric drivetrain. Much of the complexity of modern vehicles is the controls for the fuel injection, transmission, timing, and the like. An electric motor—perhaps even without a transmission—is a hell of a lot simpler.

mywittyname4• 6 years ago

due to all of the modern safety regulations.

People love to say this is due to regulation, but it really isn't. Safety regulations in the USA for automobiles are not terribly strict. It adds weight, for sure, but you can buy a 2100lb Mitsubishi Mirage with a stick shift. So mandatory safety aren't the biggest contributor to inflated curb weights.

Size inflation is predominantly driven by NVH and interior volume requirements from consumers. Dodge doesn't have to make the Challenger Hellcat a 4500lb two-door car. This car isn't fat for safety reasons, in fact, it score pretty damn low on safety tests.

Manufacture make heavy cars it because customers want gigantic, comfortable cruisers, with big engines, all-wheel job, 20" wheels on 265mm-wide tires, heavy duty lifted suspension, and full-length under-body trays.

Honda isn't immune to this, they don't even sell a car today that's as small in volume as your 88 Civic. The closest would be the discontinued CR-Z, which was a hyrbrid, or the no-long-sold-in-the-US Jazz/Fit, which is still quite a bit larger but only 2600lbs with a stickshift.

I love old Hondas, and you're right, they have a driving sensation that's impossible to get with modern cars. But don't blame regulations for Honda changing their ways, blame consumers. If people wanted a Civic with a 90hp engine, stick shift, four-wheel double-wishbone suspension, and 13" wheels, they'd sell one. Mitsu still does (for now).

throwaway0a5e4• 6 years ago

There is a reason the 80s-90s model years are starting to go up in value. Car enthusiasts want that sweet spot of purely analog controls, but also with working factory A/C.

People have said this exact thing for decades. It's because people old enough to remember being carted around in those cars as kids are finally getting old enough to be settled down and wealthy enough to have project cars. It has nothing to do with the vehicles themselves.

Within any given decade the things the rich kids got carted around in (or their dad commuted in) always command a premium.

kllrnohj6• 6 years ago

My next hobby car is going to be something purely mechanical. [..] For example: A 1988 Honda Civic

A 1988 Honda Civic isn't purely mechanical. It still has an ECU, for example. It still relies on electrical sensors for basic operation.

Car enthusiasts want that sweet spot of purely analog controls, but also with working factory A/C.

There's no shortage of new cars that still offer that, too, or recently used. You don't have to go back to the late-80s to get that. It seems to be mechanical steering combined with low curb weight that you're actually focusing on, which is still a market segment receiving new models. You've basically described every Porsche up until the 2012 model year, for example (when they first introduced electronic steering). Or the entire Lotus brand. Or specialty cars like the Alfa Romeo 4c, Toyota/Subaru FRS/GT86/BRZ, etc...

And, of course, you can't forget the king of sports cars - the Mazda Miata. 30 years later & it's still just as light as it's always been. And just as good.

Something like a BMW M3 E30 would be a dream hobby car for me.

There's so much more to a car than spec sheets, and you should absolutely chase your dreams, but realize you can also basically buy a brand new M3 E30 today. The power, weight, size, etc... of the E30 is withing spitting distance of the GT86.

Both are front-engine rear-wheel drive. Both have manual transmissions (although a 6-speed in the GT86 vs. the 5-speed in the E30). Both have a ~2700lb curb weight. Both have a 101 in wheelbase. The 86 is a bit shorter length, bit shorter height, and a bit larger width, but all within a few inches. Both have a 4-cylinder engine at around 200hp, and both rev to about 7000 rpm. Both have responsive, playful suspensions, and direct steering feedback.

Regulations definitely didn't kill anything here as the same core specs still exist.

mywittyname4• 6 years ago

Probably.

Lots of dedicated automotive hobbyists end up being specialized mechanical engineers. They might not know the formal math behind systems, but they have a reason to learn. Today's hobbyists might look up tables for calculating fueling requirements for the expected airflow of their setups, as tuning an engine invariably means figuring out airflow volume for an intake setup, then calculating injector duty cycles to deliver a set volume of fuel over a specific timespan.

I doubt there will be many people modifying new EVs due to their complexity. But people are definitely converting old cars to EVs and that requires a pretty deep knowledge of EE principals.

nabilhat• 6 years ago

Already done! NEDRA [0] is the north American drag racing scene that has been around over 20 years. Much of the best DC EV equipment was developed by the hobbyist market. Perhaps the most impressive example of hobbyists becoming electrical engineers is the self-taught inventor of the Zilla DC motor controller [1], which is still a force to be reckoned with in performance EV conversions. Electrathon [2] is a series that's highly accessible to high schools and individual hobbyists - the goal being to cover as much ground as possible in one hour on one kWh.

EVs are comparatively easy to get started on as a hobby. The production EVs are only making it easier by populating the secondhand parts market, and electric drivetrains are much simpler and easier to fit than ICE conversions.

[0] http://www.nedra.com/

[1] http://cafeelectric.com/zilla.php

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrathon

holri• 6 years ago

Probably the wrong optimization in times of climate crises.

edm0nd• 6 years ago

In between the new Bronco and the new F-150 launching soon, Ford looks to have some interesting new vehicles in the near future.

AWildC182• 6 years ago

Yea, it seems like the whole off-road community has been drooling over the bronco as a possible jeep alternative. They seem to have finally figured out that there are some wide open markets out there.

mywittyname4• 6 years ago

The Wrangler is hard, hard, hard to compete with. It's had several competitors, and none of them survived. They don't survive because Wranglers are terrible daily drivers. But Wranglers aren't terrible because they're a Jeep, they are terrible because of the compromises Jeep needs to make for the Wrangler to maintain offroad credibility.

Thus, most people tolerate Wranglers because A) they enjoy it, B) they like the image driving one projects. It's really not any different from a Dodge Viper, it's a terrible car that people drive mainly for image, or because melted shoe soles and burned legs are worth it for the fun.

So what happens is, Toyota/Ford/Chevy/Suzuki make a "better" competitor. But hardly anyone buys it because it's a terrible daily driver, and it doesn't have the image of a Wrangler for people to overlook it.

Even Jeep sells mostly comfy SUVs.

spaetzleesser• 6 years ago

All these super high powered electric cars are neat but I think this is going totally the wrong directions. This could be used as an opportunity to rethink cars in general and hopefully switching to smaller and more efficient cars. Instead cars are becoming even bigger and heavier. In terms of environment this is also a bad trend. EVs don’t pollute while driving but the energy still has to come from somewhere.

t0mbstone• 6 years ago

For true mass adoption and real progress to happen, you have to overcome the notion that electric power is for "sissies".

It's a real problem that is very prevalent, especially in more rural areas.

I agree with you that building a bunch of electric supercars isn't the ideal long-term plan, but you have to admit that Tesla's roadster and their very fast cars have had an enormous impact when it comes to driving adoption and combatting the negative perceptions around electric cars.

Psychology is a huge factor when you are talking about progress and convincing an entire population to switch their way of thinking.

brohee3• 6 years ago

Citroën Ami is about Smart sized and doesn't even require a license... But for most people it's at best a third car https://uk-media.citroen.com/en-gb/default-title-164

m4632• 6 years ago

They ARE much more efficient. Smaller is possible (think the electric fiat 500), but it would also not be as safe.

in3d• 6 years ago

“But if you want to chase lap records or quarter-mile times instead, it'll do that, too—it just requires a few suspension tweaks like changing to shorter control arms that allow for less extreme steering angles.”

Not happening. The most important thing is not mentioned: weight. The production version can be 1000 lbs heavier than a regular Mustang. This model can cut some of it but more will be added in batteries to get more power. And then there is nothing you can do on the track - can’t fight physics.

Not the first time I see such misleading claims about cars made by tech sites. Linking to articles written by car magazines would be better - they wouldn’t believe the PR so easily.

Edit: I should mention I’m talking about the lap times more than the 1/4 mile times.

bitexploder2• 6 years ago

My Tesla Model 3 weighs over 4000 lbs and still cranks out 3.2 second 0-60 and turns out competitive laps on the track in its class (BMW M3, etc) For reference my giant ford raptor only weighs like 1000 more lbs. it’s not as nimble in turns, but it makes up for it with on demand torque coming out of corners. Also, Mustangs have never been true sports/track cars in their mass consumer versions. They do make more trackable mustang variants, but I can still see a market for a stupidly powerful pony car.

rootusrootus5• 6 years ago

It's been a number of years now since a garden variety Mustang GT became faster than an M3 around a road course. Now we have things like the PP2 and the Camaro SS 1LE that are nipping at the heals of really high end performance cars. Gone are the days when pony cars couldn't turn.

mardifoufs• 6 years ago

Yep, Power is important but aerodynamic forces are a much harder problem when you reach a certain point. Too much power and you will fly off like an airplane very quickly [0]! I can't imagine a production road legal car using even close to 1400 HP. You'd need serious, serious tuning!

[0] https://youtu.be/Zxe_DqAkeAk

AtlasBarfed3• 6 years ago

Battery improvements will drop the battery weight by 50% in 5-10 years I'd guess. Especially a super high performance platform that can be designed to swap out higher density but lower durability solid state or air batteries

AtlasBarfed3• 6 years ago

I've been saying for a year now that EV will be death for hypercar price tags.

1500 HP for an ICE is a multimillion price tag 1500 HP for an EV in 5-10 years will be 1/10th that.

The design of this underlines that. the 1500HP is from just serially adding motors to the axles. It didn't involve a 10 year development cycle for a W-12 quad-turbo'd megaengine.

They pulled 7 motors off the shelf and attached them.

gedy• 6 years ago

That does not look much like a Mustang, more like they are going for a Tesla Model X

Ford’s electric car engineers go crazy with 1,400hp Mustang Mach-E

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