Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/

by obilgic • 6 years ago

588 841 6 years ago

capitolhillautonomous.zone

kf15• 6 years ago

Bumping this towards front page discussion, the Wikipedia link on this got flag killed from the front page.

Drunkfoowl• 6 years ago

I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who are either living, or have been to Seattle/Cap Hill.

Politics aside for a moment, this is the pinnacle of Cap Hill IMO. Good on them, as long as they stay safe and try not to get too culty.

kf15• 6 years ago

So my question: will Trump quickly and lethally invoke the Insurrection act? Will the Joint Chiefs comply or create a constitutional crisis?

If this isn’t shut down quickly, I predict we see a national movement like this by Juneteenth.

Trasmatta• 6 years ago

His threat to use the Insurrection Act last week was one of the most unpopular acts of his entire presidency, and directly led to the major rebukes from people like Mattis. So I doubt it.

kf15• 6 years ago

While that’s a fair point, this situation is a more literal insurrection than the previously seen protests and taking of goods from stores. CHAZ has declared their independence from the USA and historically that kind of thing is really not allowed. Has Trump so thoroughly lost control that secession is legal now?

smkellat• 6 years ago

From 10 USC 253:

“ The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—

“(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or

“(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.

“In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution.”

I don’t know. Without sufficient intel as to what is happening on the ground I wouldn’t know if civil rights are being denied. If they are and the local authorities are cooperating with the rebellious group then there might be a way to utilize the act. It is just too soon to tell.

erdos4d• 6 years ago

It has the look of a mini Christiania, nice to see something like this sprout up in the US. I hope it sticks around and becomes something really cool.

albybisy• 6 years ago

From Wikipedia: Animal Farm by G.Orwell "The book tells the story of a group of farm animals who rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a society where the animals can be equal, free, and happy. Ultimately, however, the rebellion is betrayed, and the farm ends up in a state as bad as it was before, under the dictatorship of a pig named Napoleon." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

docdeek• 6 years ago

One reddit thread suggests it is already heading that way.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

ciarannolan3• 6 years ago

From the OP of that post:

tl;dw: Man was tagging over someone else's art, Raz and group approach and separate him from crowd, chasing him for two blocks. He begins to film them with his phone, they take it from him. He tries to get it back and they attack him, kicking him in the head and breaking his glasses. At one point, Raz threatens to shoot the man. They then begin to gaslight him that it was all his fault. Audio only for most of the end, because woman in Raz' crew filming puts the phone in her pocket while the stream continues. [1]

So it took about 3 days for this anarchist utopia to demonstrate exactly why police exist.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

Miner49er• 6 years ago

Yeah. Hopefully the people in CHAZ learn from Animal Farm and shut Raz down now.

Orwell would likely support CHAZ, he fight with the anarchists in Catalonia after all. People tend to not realize that Animal Farm was a criticism of the USSR from a socialist. It is not a criticism of all socialism or anarchism.

danharaj3• 6 years ago

"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism as I understand it." - George Orwell (1946)

yingw787• 6 years ago

I wonder if it's bigger than Sealand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

When I look at the list of demands I'm pretty quick to dismiss it. Then I remember how I dismissed the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle too, and how many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades. I might be too hopeful, but I really think the city leadership should talk to them and hear them out, instead of just trying to push them over.

kf15• 6 years ago

The city is already cooperating and providing portable toilets and tried to replace the barricades with nice planters. It’s a national conversation now.

ncallaway2• 6 years ago

The list of demands came from an open mic discussion. They let anyone come up and suggest a demand.

Someonen transcribed those demands and then posted them.

I think it would be better to view those demands as the union of demands of each person willing to speak to a crowd. Which is why you see inconsistency in then, why it's such a long list, etc.

I just think that list of demands is better understood in that context.

tomschlick2• 6 years ago

Its not a list of demands if it's ridiculous and can't be realistically filled. At that point its just a list of wishes.

rayiner4• 6 years ago

The list of demands is extremely tame for a fricking anarchist commune. Look at the list of "economic demands." The biggest ask is de-gentrification and rent control.

malandrew3• 6 years ago

Those asks seem pretty incompatible with property law and the legislative process. You can't just unilaterally demand something like rent control and de-gentrification measures. The city government shouldn't even have (and probably doesn't have) the power to meet such demands.

mmcgaha• 6 years ago

defunding police pensions is a bit much.

harryh• 6 years ago

many of the fears those protesters had were realized over the next two decades

Is there a list of these fears somewhere? Ideally as presented at the time.

kasey_junk• 6 years ago

It’s hard to enumerate the list as if it were some soviet collective document because one of the interesting parts of the wto protests were how decentralized they were. In that they were thoroughly modern.

But 2 issues that stand out as prescient are the environmental impact of an ascendant China and the changes to the US middle class globalization would render.

0x262d8• 6 years ago

well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.

hedora10• 6 years ago

The definitive write up of their fears is in the book “Has Globalization Gone too Far?” by Dani Rodrick (1997).

It was not well received at the time, but sadly, it’s predictions have been proven correct over time.

Here’s a contemporary negative review of the book with a point by point refutation of its contents (it is painful to read with the benefit of hindsight): https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewconten...

Here’s a chronology of related protests, ending in Trump. You could read up on the individual events, I suppose:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta-timeline-idUS...

blaser-waffle• 6 years ago

I believe Denmark had something like this for a while. It started with squatters taking over an area kind of like this.

Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

KozmoNau7• 6 years ago

Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city resources.

As someone living in Copenhagen, I would not consider that anything near an accurate description of the history of Christiania. What happened was that an old military area and barracks was left abandoned and disused, so a group of squatters moved in, fixed up the place and built a community.

It did not turn into a "serious drug venue". They had issues with hard drugs in the 1970s, but kicked all of that to the curb and there is a strict community-supported ban on all hard drugs. Over the years various sellers have popped up here and there, but they are generally shunned and chased out by the community.

It also did not "fall apart", although it has had its ups and downs. The political winds have varied from indifference to acceptance to attempts to abolish the entire things, raze the area and built apartments. The current state is that the area is owned by a foundation and is treated partly as a part of the city of Copenhagen and partly as an independent enclave. Danish law enforcement is grudgingly accepted in cases of actual crimes, but otherwise not exactly openly welcomed.

bathtub3652• 6 years ago

I was in Christiania late last year and there were at least a dozen tables with sellers selling drugs. It didn’t seem like the community was shunning them or running them out

giantDinosaur• 6 years ago

That place consisted of people selling weed, people consuming weed, or someone decrying the perception that it was all based around flouting Danish laws relating to weed. It's situated in a nice area of the city, though, if it was just a random suburb it would likely not be a place you'd go.

staplers4• 6 years ago

I would implore everyone to think critically about the term "serious drug use" when used in the media to vilify scenarios and people.

Often these people need help and are self-medicating as anyone using traditional western medicine does (albeit with non-corporate drugs).

This type of stereotype further allows police to run wild and unchecked to "solve the drug problem" by beating and harassing than by actually solving any problem like a social worker is more likely to.

1001101• 6 years ago

treated partly as a part of the city of Copenhagen and partly as an independent enclave.

The "Now Entering the EU" sign at the exit hints at the locals' view of its status.

basementcat• 6 years ago

Hong Kong had the Kowloon Walled City for nearly a century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

vmception2• 6 years ago

Its also how Vatican City exists as a sovereign state, and also many disputed territories that enjoy peaceful inaction as long as nobody brings it up

so if you squat long enough anything is possible.

scarlac• 6 years ago

Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart

This is not true. I am Danish and my apartment is in Copenhagen. It's in fact so successful it has turned into a tourist attraction. Lukas Graham[1] is a Danish musician who grew up there. I don't see how this community can be called a failure.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Graham

hedora10• 6 years ago

We visited Christiania a few years ago. It was lovely. The entire time, we felt just as safe as anywhere else in Copenhagen, and we didn’t see any evidence of drug use (certainly less than you’d see “on the wrong side of the tracks” in any other big city).

If you have a chance to visit Christiania, I recommend it. Copenhagen is one of my favorite towns. They have wonderful parks, museums, and even a really cool amusement park.

sharemywin• 6 years ago

According to a June 10 article by City Journal, hip hop artist Raz Simone acts as "co-leader and enforcer" of the Zone, while former mayoral candidate Nikkita Oliver formulates the commune's political aims.[24] However, according to Simone, the Zone has no central leadership, with all residents serving as leaders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone

kf15• 6 years ago

The City Journal article is interesting but has such a strange perspective and bias that I appreciate you not linking it here.

ciarannolan3• 6 years ago

I've lived in a neighborhood with an "enforcer". Let's just say most of us were happy when the police showed up from time to time.

kf15• 6 years ago

Living in a neighborhood in Oakland CA with no enforcer and annoyingly blatant property crime, I’m willing to give an enforcer a try cause it’s not like people trust the police here or that they even come when you call them.

ashtonkem9• 6 years ago

Enforcer is a pretty loaded word.

eplanit• 6 years ago

"Within the self governed blocks you can find food vendors, daily marches, public film screenings and community councils hosted throughout the day".

Performance Art, I guess. Reads like a story of children building a treehouse/fort.

quantummkv• 6 years ago

To me this whole thing reads more like the plot and gameplay of the next Far Cry game. What a time to be alive.

Pfhreak4• 6 years ago

Seattle police vacated the east precinct, fully expecting protesters to burn it down. Instead, the protesters set up an open zone, compiled a set of demands, and from all accounts set up something cool and unique.

Here's hoping it sustains itself for a while.

jerf• 6 years ago

No, not even remotely "by all accounts". There are plenty of accounts that isn't "cool and unique" but is just another place ruled by violent thugs: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h077uv/raz_simone_...

I'm not passing judgment yet since the days are young and the political bias on the ground is thick in both directions. But it is definitely not "by all accounts".

But my personal bias on the table is that yeah, trading police that were imperfectly constrained by the system for new police utterly and entirely unconstrained by the system is probably not going to go well. The real "fun" will start when Raz's faction pisses off enough people to form a violent counterfaction and you get a gang war, so give it a bit. It takes time for these things to develop. Let the honeymoon wear off and have this place showing a functioning system for, oh, say, at least a month before declaring victory. Not that you declared victory, I'm just saying, I recommend against getting too invested in this.

It's not as if "a place that has no police" is some shocking new experiment that has never been run before; you've got plenty of places you can look out in the world to see what happens next. It's not a difficult-to-predict progression.

Pfhreak4• 6 years ago

I watched that video, I saw someone coming in and defacing peoples homes. The people filming asked if they had permission, then asked the person to stop. The person refused to stop painting and pushed the group of folks and there was a scuffle that ended with the tagger walking away.

Aside, intentionally or unintentionally, calling a group of predominantly black people "thugs" is a common dog whistle.

0x262d8• 6 years ago

A handful of incidents like these are being distorted and blown up by media that treats cop lies uncritically. In comparison, just a few nights ago, cops were beating people and filling the area with tear gas (banned under geneva convention) and it was seeping into residential homes so badly that even nextdoor is anti-police in that area now.

shadowgovt2• 6 years ago

The "new police" are constrained by a different system than the officers. Namely, they weren't police-trained.

Whether that's going to be a positive or a negative remains to be seen, but that's one of the key notions in these protests.

viraptor• 6 years ago

Worth keeping in mind as well that situations like that likely happened before, but a group protecting territory and chasing someone while police is not around wasn't newsworthy.

hedora10• 6 years ago

it is definitely not "by all accounts"

By all honest, first person accounts then?

Two stories down in the link you sent, theres a picture of a bunch of people calmly watching a movie in a makeshift outdoor theater.

It sure doesn’t look like the tear-gassed, rubber bullet fests we’ve been seeing around the rest of the country.

nickfromseattle• 6 years ago

Here is an update: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/h7f01r/i_was_wrong...

My friends that have walked through the area can confirm.

Why predict defeat?

Why not appreciate the experiment as an alternative to our broken system?

Yeah, it'll eventually go away.

But maybe change will be secured, and there are some ideas that do make sense and will spread or stick around.

Is the worst that could happen worse than the status quo?

You sound like one of the commenters on Drew Houston's Ask HN telling him no-one will pay for rsync.

necrotic_comp• 6 years ago

I think it's going to be difficult to sustain without either strong leadership or strong collective decision making ; my gut tells me it's going to go the way of Zuccoti Park rather Christiana.

It would be nice if it could sustain itself, but it will likely creak under its own weight in a month or so.

Pfhreak4• 6 years ago

Yeah, I expect it'll be an eddy in the river of history and expend its energy pretty quickly. But it has some folks involved that have leadership experience, so it'll be interesting to watch.

troydavis• 6 years ago

One person did try to burn it down on June 12 and got pretty close: https://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2020/06/12/detectives-need-pu...

proc03• 6 years ago

It will be fun to watch how they eat each other alive.

I would have believed it plausible had they gone outside the city to some secluded area to create their utopia, but it's being done on existing buildings they did not build, and property that is not theirs but I guess their "revolution" is to not give two shits about anything.

I give them at most one more week.

Minor49er2• 6 years ago

Seattle doesn't want to be beaten by Minneapolis to becoming the next Detroit

jdhn2• 6 years ago

As someone who currently lives near Detroit, the city is faring remarkably well in light of everything that's been going on. I haven't heard anything about rioters, just people who are peacefully protesting.

Minor49er2• 6 years ago

I'm referring to Detroit circa 1967

evanlivingston• 6 years ago

What does this mean?

staplers4• 6 years ago

This whole thread really illuminates how racist and sheltered this community is.

tjr2252• 6 years ago

Ironically this would make the area much more affordable. I’m all for it :)

remarkEon10• 6 years ago

Uhh when was the last time you were in Detroit?

nikkwong5• 6 years ago

Yes, I'm personally very worried about this as someone who is heavily invested in the real estate market here. The issue of how to deal with the rapid growth in the city is multifaceted and it's difficult to pitch a stance on.

At the very least, you could easily make an argument that a rising tide does not lift all boats; i.e. many people are personally not benefiting much from the tech-boom in the area. On the other hand, if your stance is that our collective goal should be to produce the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of people; then we want more people to move to the city have prosperous lives to fulfill the new roles available here. In that scenario it's hard to keep income inequality from expanding.

It seems like thusfar the city council has done a good job at striking a balance; MHA (mandatory housing affordability) is a level-headed way to redistribute some of the gains that tech has brought to those who are less fortunate. However, our current city council is much more left-leaning and I'm worried that their stance towards growth is far more "progressive" and anti-business.

Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they cannot afford? Cities like Manhattan or SF have sort of taken a stance on that and it favors the prosperous. I'm not sure how I feel about the matter; but I certainly do not want us to dampen our potential future potential by encouraging businesses to set up shop elsewhere. We need more initiatives like MHA and fewer like the business head-tax.

admax88q• 6 years ago

It seems like thusfar the city council has done a good job at striking a balance;

I'm not from the area, but the sheer amount of anger and enthusiasm that has fueled these protests suggests that the city council has not been striking an appropriate balance.

Happy middle class people don't tend to riot and try to start new societies.

deathgrips10• 6 years ago

Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they cannot afford? Cities like Manhattan or SF have sort of taken a stance on that and it favors the prosperous.

I find it eerie that you're excluding from the equation the tens of thousands of homeless people in those cities. The right question is "to what lengths should we go to give people the ability to live with a roof over their heads?" The bay area has answered with "very little", where most people are barely offering human empathy to the homeless.

tathougies7• 6 years ago

many people are personally not benefiting much from the tech-boom in the area

Gosh how can you be so jealous of people you're willing to destroy their stuff. It's the same kind of xenophobia that fuels anti-immigrant rhetoric. People upset that those moving to 'their turf' happen to do better than them.

Kye3• 6 years ago

> "Should people really be entitled to live in an expensive city that they cannot afford?"

They do if you want the people who serve your $5 coffees and $20 meals to be able to live within a reasonable distance. I like to think the people gentrifying them out don't want to push them out, but I'm not sure most of them even realize they're responsible for the huge homeless population. They moved in for the well-paid jobs and pushed the people who lived there out. The pushed out don't always have somewhere to go or a way to get there.

jacobush• 6 years ago

I wondered if it's inspired by Christiania?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

It's been a thing half a century now.

dayofthedaleks• 6 years ago

Sure, but also Paris in 1871, and Barcelona in 1936.

gesticulator• 6 years ago

This site documents the zone with a timeline, some pictures and local articles as well: https://chaz.zone/

matxip• 6 years ago

For those interested, this is a previously streamed speaking event in the CHAZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7nDkd3V2V0

balls1872• 6 years ago

Capitol Hill's police precinct has been abandoned, however, police are still responding to 9-1-1 calls to the area.

This feels very much overblown.

Seattle Times has an article that outlines similar "occupy" protests.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-cap...

FireBeyond• 6 years ago

There was almost an air of disappointment from SPD that the police station _wasn't_ burned down. It seemed that they were threatening that it was only a matter of time, "We told you so"-style. But alas.

smitty1e• 6 years ago

Glad to see the #Occupy franchise has a new installment out.

dawg-• 6 years ago

Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is just asking to lose right off the bat.

I wish they would delete it and stick with their second demand - take all weapons away from police. No guns, no batons, no tasers. It's also crazy, but at least it's crazy in a "this might just be crazy enough to work" kind of way.

muricula4• 6 years ago

A bunch of people are calling for defunding the police and not total abolition, although that is what this site says. Socialist City Council member Kshama Sawant has already pledged to bring legislation to cut the police department budget by 50%, and city officials are going over it in depth.

dragonwriter11• 6 years ago

Their first demand is that the Seattle Police Department be abolished, as in 100% defunded, as in completely deleted. Coming out with a demand like that is just asking to lose right off the bat.

Abolition of existing centralized paramilitary police departments in favor of rethinking public safety and social services and reconstituting and redistributing law enforcement within a new framework is an idea which has fairly rapidly recently moved from the fringes to the mainstream of debate, and it is a policy openly and actively being discussed by many local governments, and already committed to by the Minneapolis City Council.

It may seem, by a pre-June-2020 perspective, to be an out-of-the-range-of-serious-debate demand, but the Overton Window on that issue just underwent and sudden and massive shift.

gammarator• 6 years ago

Here's a recent summary: https://kottke.org/20/06/police-abolition-defund-the-police

remarkEon10• 6 years ago

It's also extraordinarily unpopular, across the ideological spectrum[1].

...which has fairly rapidly recently moved from the fringes to the mainstream of debate, and it is a policy openly and actively being discussed by many local governments, and already committed to by the Minneapolis City Council.
but the Overton Window on that issue just underwent and sudden and massive shift.

Well you're right about that. Because it's insane, and generates clicks, likes, and retweets and so media keeps covering like it's actually popular despite the fact the inverse is true to keep generating their clicks, likes, and retweets. I've been waiting for the Star Tribune to actually run some local polling on this, because everyone I know still back there also thinks it's insane. My guess is they do run the polls, and don't publish the results for the same reason.

[1]https://twitter.com/databyler/status/1268555840098906115?ref...

dclowd99012• 6 years ago

Abolish police is a first step. The idea is to create an alternative way to keep public order, and not _start_ from the police as a concept.

hnarn• 6 years ago

I don’t have an opinion on the morality of this instance of an “autonomous zone” but it made me think of the concept of “TAZ” as described in this book, may be interesting for those interested in anarchist politics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

ghostofblanqui• 6 years ago

Didn't expect this to be posted here. I've put up a FAQ now answering a lot of the questions in this thread and dispelling the rumours. Thank you!

iron00134• 6 years ago

It’s funny; this being HN, some of you must live in Seattle. So instead of spreading sub-Facebook level rumors and FUD, why don’t you walk over to CHAZ and see the reality for yourself?

elbigbad• 6 years ago

I live in Seattle, went over yesterday with no preconceived notions of what must be there. I had seen some posts that it was pretty lawless, but really took them with a grain of salt. Nothing I had heard about it was true. I didn't see any guns, no violence, or anything, no checkpoints (just barricades stopping actual cars from coming in, but not stopping people/bicycles). Just a bunch of people kind of hanging out listening to speeches near the East Precinct building. The live stream link on the OP shows it, basically people hanging out, walking around, etc.

If you do live in Seattle, you should head over and see it for yourself. It's a very unique thing and who knows how long it will be there. I assume at some point the police will drive a tank through it or something.

iron00134• 6 years ago

There you have it folks, eyewitness testimony. And yet somehow I suspect the people that believe the rapper warlord Orwellian dystopia narrative won’t change their mind one bit.

blackrock• 6 years ago

LOL. This will not end well.

When will they declare independence? That’s when the fun will really begin.

vangelis4• 6 years ago

I doubt anything will happen. The smart move would be to let it fizzle out.

dang4• 6 years ago

All: this story is here because it's an interesting phenomenon, a la https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Before commenting, please make sure you're up to date on those rules and post in the intended spirit (curiosity and conversation) not the opposite one (ideology and battle).

dang4• 6 years ago

This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place, so that it can be collapsed and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of the thread.

ShamelessC2• 6 years ago

Thanks for leaving this one up. I understand it's not the discourse this site is directly interested in, but the occasional opportunity to debate such issues in an intelligent forum is something I have trouble finding elsewhere on the internet.

Having said that, I'm sure these types of post create a lot of work for you. I appreciate the upkeep and please keep up the good work!

DocEasyE• 6 years ago

this is not an interesting phenomenon, this has happened many times and still these places exist, whats not interesting is the civilians got caught in these dummies crossfire.

brodouevencode• 6 years ago

Can we have this reminder posted on every ratio'd post? (Given the circumstances) things have gotten a lot more political on HN as of late (yes, my opinion, not driven by facts) and I find myself not making my daily lunch-time visit because of that.

lordlic2• 6 years ago

That sentiment makes me pretty uncomfortable given the proximity of this article's topic to wider ongoing events. Like we should all pour glasses of single malt and sit around a table in our smoking jackets having a languorous discussion. These issues are too important, and the horror and shock and outrage are too fresh, to react to nauseating views by politely sipping your whisky instead of throwing it in their face.

malandrew3• 6 years ago

Two fascinating observations I've seen others have point out that are worth pondering:

- One of the first things they did after seizing six city blocks is setting up a border and controlling who enters the CHAZ

- How would the media have reacted if right-wing groups had commandeered several city blocks of any American city?

This is super interesting to watch unfold.

muricula4• 6 years ago

I live down the block. Anyone can wander in. If you're a local politician or an unfriendly news org you might be yelled at by protestors, but that shouldn't be a surprise.

yborg• 6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...

thisiszilff• 6 years ago

The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge doesn't appear to be in the middle of a city.

gonational6• 6 years ago

They were all arrested on felony charges and one was killed, and the media called them radicals... (iow, exactly what GP proposed)

conroy• 6 years ago

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night:

I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place
The media coverage of it is WILD
People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground
There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys last night and they were so proud of what was built because they felt like they fought for it, which in a sense, they did.

DenisM8• 6 years ago

like a music festival campground

Every generation needs a Woodstock. Burning man is not real enough.

saalweachter• 6 years ago

The tricky part of ephemeral culture is keeping it ephemeral while still allowing it to reoccur often in new forms, and not just having a crystalized form of spontaneity that future generations are supposed to appreciate in the correct way.

Finnucane• 6 years ago

Every generation needs a Woodstock

A massively failed capitalist project that leaves behind an enormous mess?

solidasparagus9• 6 years ago

a music festival campground

Which is fun for a while until people start dying or fighting like they always do and suddenly you need a group of people who spend their time dealing with it. Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long.

0xddd• 6 years ago

What examples do you have in mind when you say this? The main case studies that I see get brought up are Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War and the Paris Commune, but the wartime pressures that led to their collapse strike me as much different from the present situation. I think the CHAZ will be an interesting experiment given the context.

woodruffw2• 6 years ago

Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long.

At least one counterexample to this is Exarcheia[1] in Athens, which has been relatively unpoliced for the last 50 years.

I was there about a year ago and was struck by how both peaceful and lively it was. Nowhere in Athens felt nearly as alive.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarcheia

djsumdog14• 6 years ago

It's like we're watching Animal Farm play out in real time.

All animals start off equal, but some animals will eventually grow to be more equal than others.

empath752• 6 years ago

Yeah, eventually it will end up with all homeless people and drug addicts, unfortunately. For now, there's enough regular people to keep it feeling safe and fun, but eventually it will get 'scary' and the normal people will leave and it'll basically be skid row.

clairity• 6 years ago

the annotated maps are funny, portraying a vibe of relatively relaxed occupation. but serious too, monitoring police activity nearby, like swat.

JPKab• 6 years ago

"they were so proud of what was built"

Curious, since I can't trust news media to not sensationalize this:

What has been built, according to your friend? Have they set up infrastructure of some sort for housing people? Kitchens, latrines, etc?

staplers4• 6 years ago

An amateur map of infrastructure right on the site: https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/img/16.jpg

missedthecue• 6 years ago

They put up a cardboard sign that said "you are now leaving the USA" and graffitied some surfaces.

https://i.imgur.com/f6VHPJ0.jpg

muricula4• 6 years ago

The city is maintaining a row of porta potties, and someone rented one privately a block or so away. Some businesses are opening their restrooms too. As of this evening I saw at least three soup kitchens, two well equipped aid stations, a community garden plot with zucchinis and other food, a row of freshly planted trees, planters of decorative plants which double as barricades, and lots of barricades. Half of that wasn't there yesterday.

elicash• 6 years ago

Sounds a lot like Occupy

libria• 6 years ago

That comparison kinda worries me. Occupy had some hygiene issues and did not have a coronavirus to worry about.

kf15• 6 years ago

This iteration of the Black Lives Matter protests has a lot in common with occupy. The main difference seems to be that this time the protests and direct action are actually causing the intended change in society, which as a cynical person that loves the aesthetic of protest, is really beautiful and surprising.

pera6• 6 years ago

The media coverage of it is WILD

I live 7 blocks away from "the zone" and can confirm, I have never in my life seen anything alike in this regard. The scale of the misinformation being spread in social networks and news media reached a level I couldn't believe possible before. Seriously, it's beyond absurd.

If anyone is interested, I have been taking some pictures of the ongoing protests (including a few of the zone): https://www.flickr.com/photos/peramides

klyrs• 6 years ago

Were you around for Occupy, can you compare?

chrisweekly3• 6 years ago

got a URL that doesn't require an account?

MR4D2• 6 years ago

It looks....empty. Thanks for taking these - looks nothing like the media portrays it.

BTW - love the church picture (I think it’s the one in Spain?)

gabesk• 6 years ago

I'm also about that far away and walked through there last night. It felt more like a summer street fair festival. I also took a few pictures. https://photos.app.goo.gl/UN8RpwWS5TYAY5Nn7

look_lookatme• 6 years ago

Do you have any critical things to say about the zone?

drevil-v2• 6 years ago

Seattle police chief said on TV [1] that "Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]."

Doesn’t sound very utopian

[1] https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=2...

NikkiA• 6 years ago

The scale of misinformation reminds me a lot of the media coverage of the pre-tanks weeks of the tiannamon square protests, and that scares me.

everly• 6 years ago

Yep, I’ve been staying in Seattle with my girlfriend since quarantine began. We live about 9 blocks away up Madison and have been walking around the zone almost daily. Hard to believe how much fear-mongering, disinfo, and straight-up lying I see in every thread/post about the subject.

TimSchumann• 6 years ago

I'm up north about the same distance. Only bad days have been this Sun/Mon with all the gas/flash-bangs and the sheriff's plane flying loops over the city until the wee hours of the morning.

Since the police cleared out, everything has been much MUCH nicer around here.

dag112• 6 years ago

The media coverage of it is WILD

Yep. I live three blocks south of CHAZ and it's so overblown. Conservative family from the east-coast have told me they're very worried for me, and I check fox news and see images from "Seattle" of parking lots of cars on fire. Those images were from Minneapolis last month, not even from Seattle.

As another nearby commenter said, last week when the police were here gassing us, throwing loud bombs at protestors at 1am, and having 24/7 helicopters directly overhead, it was hard to sleep. We could feel the gas blocks away. Ever since the police vacated the precinct and "CHAZ" started, things have been so peaceful and safe in this community.

11thEarlOfMar2• 6 years ago

On the right, I am seeing:

- It's called Antifastan

- Warlord Raz is prone to violent outbursts, and is an AirBnb Superhost.

- There are open carries with automatic rifles. They get the most respect.

- Laughing out loud at an attempt to create a vegetable garden. Didn't appear promising.

- Laughing harder at a cry for 'please send vegan meats and soy products, the homeless took all the food!'

My thinking is, the truth is much more clearly painted in this forum than on either side of the mainstream media. I do consider them the enemy of the people for dividing us, pitting us against each other, and creating an oppression of fear. So they can sell more clicks.

alasdair_5• 6 years ago

I live less than half an hour’s journey away but seemingly most of the people on my neighborhood facebook pages believe Fox News’ reporting more than their own neighbors photographs and videos. They refuse to even drive over there to see what is going on, so certain they are that they are right.

hkai• 6 years ago

What you're saying is fair, but also imagine that's how conservatives felt for years. The left-leaning media outlets appear to be wildly exaggerating things they want to exaggerate, just as Fox News does on their side. Not sure if examples are needed.

narrator• 6 years ago

I think the media has been playing this up like crazy to try and get the alt-right to react. The alt-right consensus, at least on 4chan, is the absolute best thing for the alt-right to do to get the Democratic party to look stupid and inept and invite a voter backlash is to do nothing.

chrissnell• 6 years ago

This jibes with what I'm seeing. Fox News is trying their damndest to get people worked up and generate support for intervention. Amongst my friends (many right-leaning), there is a strong consensus that this is a trap laid for Trump and that the best thing to do for everybody involved is to ignore it and leave it to the Seattle government. If it really is as chill as folks say here, it settles down and is out of the news cycle in a week. If it gets truly bad, the egg is on the face of the mayor and governor for not dealing with it sooner.

spoopyskelly• 6 years ago

You thinking 4chan is "alt-right" and they have a consensus is just as ridiculous as facebook boomer/media reactions to CHAZ and it being Mad Max style postapocalyptic.

CapricornNoble• 6 years ago

>I think the media has been playing this up like crazy to try and get the alt-right to react.

The media already tried this tactic once and failed: with the release of the "Joker" film. Remember all the hysteria about angry white incels? It was as if the mainstream media WANTED a theater to become a bloodbath. But in a lot of the YT comment sections I read the atmosphere was "We're on to these scumbags, everybody just be chill, don't prove them correct."

freeone30004• 6 years ago

Yeah, they don't need a ton of help there. Biden's response is to shoot them in the legs, not the chest! The entire Democratic establishment seems completely unable of taking a moral stance for fear it would offend somebody.

downerending7• 6 years ago

Not sure anyone is "convinced", but yes, there are stories of uncertain believeability suggesting that there are people with guns at the "border" demanding ID to enter. Sounds dubious.

Also, that the Antifas are asking for protection money from businesses within the zone. Again, dubious.

But, if either of those things are happening, I'm pretty okay with putting an end to them, by whatever means necessary. Threatening Joe and Jane citizen with violence is not cool.

dilbertforgenz• 6 years ago

Did you hear about the ice cream man who goes around town serving rancid rat milk sundaes to kids?

Of course, he doesn't exist, but, if he did, I'm taking a strong stance against him being taken down, by whatever means necessary. Threatening to serve dubious sundaes to kids is not cool.

alasdair_5• 6 years ago

Notice how none of these stories are ever “this happened to me” from someone credible who provably lives there? It’s always “a friend said...”

virgil_disgr4ce3• 6 years ago

the Antifas are asking for protection money from businesses within the zone

That's one of the most hilarious and absurd things I've ever heard. All of my antifa friends are the most wonderful, gentle nerds. They're gardeners, organizers, history buffs, parents, writers, table-top gamers. It's so bizarre (and shitty) that the public conception of "antifa" became twisted into this nonsensical cartoon of looters and pillagers (and mafiosi now, apparently).

oarsinsync• 6 years ago

I'm pretty okay with putting an end to them, by whatever means necessary

I don't know you, nor do I know your views on capital punishment. That said, I suspect you don't intend to promote that these crimes justify summary executions.

Consider the realistic logical endpoint of the statement. It ultimately means that it's acceptable for the police to storm the space, guns blazing, shooting (and reasonable probability of killing) anyone who doesn't immediately surrender.

colllectorof• 6 years ago

The media coverage of it is WILD People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground

This seems like propaganda in its own right. With the exception of Fox and Sky, most news coverage I see on YouTube is neutral or positive:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=capitol+hill+au...

Most mainstream coverage of protests in general seems to be totally biased in favor of the protestors and against the police. The only big channels that show anything going in the other direction are, again, Fox and Sky.

space_fountain• 6 years ago

It's wild that the first time I saw this on the NYT was an article talking about Trump's tweat about it. I don't quite understand why they didn't think it was newsworthy

cma4• 6 years ago

Fox is by far the most popular news channel in the US and pretty close to bigger than the rest combined.

undersuit4• 6 years ago

My friend in Seattle told me they put up a wall, armed thugs are shaking down businesses inside and ICE agents were controlling admission. I'm glad to know it's just a mural.

twirlip4• 6 years ago

Has your friend gone to witness it themselves? I had gone to the local protest in our city. My next door neighbor, unaware that I had marched, told me that it was a violent mob. She didn't believe me when I contradicted her until I showed her video footage I took with my phone. She didn't have a good answer when I questioned who told her it was violent; I'm assuming it's just wrong information passed along in social media.

undefined1• 6 years ago

Portraying it as some mad max wasteland is absurd, but so is referring to it as even pseudo utopian.

It's not sustainable in any way and there wasn't exactly a democratic process by which the residents of Seattle agreed to having a section of their city turned into an autonomous zone. Though it could be an interesting experiment to do this somewhere, I think it'd have to go through a vote.

alex_young• 6 years ago

Portraying it as some mad max wasteland is absurd, but so is referring to it as anything remotely utopian.

Why couldn't it be positive? I think it's fair to say that these are early days and there is a general lack of data about what's going on, but most of what I've seen has been pretty positive.

Here's a video I watched from inside: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=610393902995230

acomjean• 6 years ago

burning man?

notatoad• 6 years ago

there wasn't exactly a democratic process by which the residents of Seattle agreed to having a section of their city turned into an autonomous zone

it is still a protest, right? this is why peaceful protest is so hard, because as soon as it stops being violent people find some way to dismiss it. when stuff is being set on fire, the argument is "why can't they protest peacefully", but when the protest is actually peaceful we get critiques like this one.

renegading4• 6 years ago

Are media being allowed in? If independent journalists were there then maybe more people would know the "truth".

dannyw• 6 years ago

It’s a public space. You can walk in. No one mans the gates.

arctangos• 6 years ago

It’s awfully hard to tell whether this is parody or not, but yes, media are “allowed” in. In fact, far as I can see on the various vids, anyone can just walk in

pacala2• 6 years ago

Seattle has 600,000 people. In a given year there are 30 murders and 300 rapes. One can collect 175,200,000 amateur camera footage of 'an hour in the life of the average Seattle-ite' until one encounters an hour with a murder, or 17,520,0000 such peaceful one hour videos until one captures a rape on camera.

Does the presence of overwhelmingly peaceful footage of average people going by their average days make Seattle at large an Utopia with no crime? Is that footage in itself sufficient evidence to abolish the police and the court system, because, look, there are 17,520,000 hours of peaceful footage before something terrible happens to someone?

It is incredibly difficult to build an accurate image of a large scale group of people judging by a few hours of direct experience. 1000 harder if through footage selected by people with their own agendas. Media coverage, especially audio-visual coverage, is wild because media coverage is simply an inappropriate way to depict such phenomena.

partiallypro• 6 years ago

Isn't it also possible that your friend is experiencing confirmation bias because they agree with CHAZ? It wasn't reported until much later but during the Occupy movement, rapes skyrocketed around and among the encampments. I have little doubt that there are a lot of things that are going unreported at the moment which will eventually come to light when people don't feel coerced or intimidated by the community (and they probably will barely make the news, unfortunately.) I've seen enough videos from inside the encampment to know that your post isn't the entire story. Group think is a very strange thing, and sometimes it takes a while of removing yourself from the group to realize some of the wrongs (look at cults/extremist groups.) Again, people said the same things about Occupy, I walked the grounds myself and it looked fine...but under the surface, women especially, were being taken advantage of/raped at a high rate.

madengr5• 6 years ago

Assuming you can believe the SPD, the rape calls are already coming in.

cl0ne• 6 years ago

One of my friends that lives in Seattle gave me a very similar description and also mentioned how differently it is being portrayed in the media than it is in reality.

haram_masala• 6 years ago

I don't live there, but there's something about all this that make it seem like a wildly overblown media event - that the actual thing itself is much more pedestrian and much less sensational than reports would have us believe.

kixiQu• 6 years ago

I live there. This is correct in that the CHAZ itself has its biggest impacts through

a. having free snacks and b. not allowing through traffic, but

it really hasn't been stated enough how awful it had been when the police were there. Helicopters all night and if you were unlucky to be close enough: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...

rabidrat• 6 years ago

This is correct. I live 3 blocks from CHAZ and I was gassed in my apartment 3 nights last week. I feel much safer without the police around right now.

pera6• 6 years ago

This is something that cannot be overstated: the helicopters and planes, the loud bombs and the gassing, were really awful. I don't have problems sleeping but last week was really hard...

joeyspn• 6 years ago

Seems like GenZ is having their occupy moment. The police is probably just waiting for them to get tired and go home. In few weeks back to "normal".

michaelmrose3• 6 years ago

There is a persistent desire to suck the funds out of the police force budget and redirect the money to things the community values. This unlike occupy is a tangible goal and if people only elect people willing to give it to them it will happen regardless of what people outside of Seattle want.

hedora10• 6 years ago

Occupy Wall Street had a tangible goal. Break up big banks, and forgive predatory loans.

Even with Obama in office, we ended up with even bigger banks and a spiraling debt crisis.

VWWHFSfQ5• 6 years ago

if it's anything like occupy wall street then it will be abandoned when burger king stops letting them use their bathroom

muricula4• 6 years ago

The city is providing porta potties right now, as are local businesses and there are individually rented porta potties. Sanitation is much better than occupy right now.

ed25519FUUU2• 6 years ago

I never understand why likeminded people don’t just start a city? “Wild country” was an example of this, but they were bound together by a quasi religion.

There’s so much unincorporated land in the USA. So many opportunities to prove things work or don’t work. Why move into a place somebody else built?

dragonwriter11• 6 years ago

I never understand why likeminded people don’t just start a city?

Mostly, probably, because starting a city has a process defined in state law (or, out of the US, law of some other higher level of government) which is different than “a bunch of people just buy up land and decide to declare it a city”, e.g., California’s LAFCO process.

rglover• 6 years ago

When you ran away from home, why did you go to your Grandma's house?

Because you were a child.

rtkwe6• 6 years ago

Unincorporated but not unowned and there's a huge amount of infrastructure and money required to setup even a small town ex nihilo in some randomly selected part of the country.

ed25519FUUU2• 6 years ago

Building infrastructure is something easily solved by capitalist. Can it not also be solved by likeminded people with alternative economic principles?

gonational6• 6 years ago

Why move into a place somebody else built?

In all seriousness, because if you dropped these same people in the woods with construction tools and resources, they’d produce nothing of value; all eaten by bears within weeks.

IOW, your question answers itself.

tehjoker• 6 years ago

This was the old model of the United States when we had a frontier. The frontier, land owned by the natives, was deemed available for the violent taking by the settler-colonials. Whenever sufficient ferment began to develop in the US proper, they would push for a new wave of expansionism which would act as a pressure release valve.

I don't understand unincorporated land, but clearly someone "owns" it or the government wants it for some reason and the former era of free expansion and manifest destiny is over. Now we must reckon with the damage and reparations owed to Native Americans.

goodmattg• 6 years ago

The comparison to Freetown Christinia is thought provoking, but the key difference seems to be that Capital Hill has been a trendy part of town with new apartments going up and rents increasing for the last decade, whereas Christinia was originally an abandoned site.

I don't question the resolve or peaceful intentions of the people currently occupying CHAZ, but instead the patience of property managers, local residents, and local businesses (though closed due to COVID-19).

throwawaysea• 6 years ago

It is plainly illegal. A bunch of criminals have barricaded several city blocks that do not belong to them and barricaded shared public infrastructure (roads). These are crimes. They should be apprehended, charged, and sentenced. This is very straightforward. Either the laws exist and they are enforced equally upon everyone or we do not have a functioning society.

ahelwer2• 6 years ago

You break the law many times per day, we all do. Enforcement of law is always discretionary and thus political.

deathgrips10• 6 years ago

Do you mind if I put up a barricade around your house so cops can't come near us? :)

telaelit• 6 years ago

I love CHAZ so much, I hope it becomes a national trend.

If city councils would defund the police and use the money for actual good things then we wouldn’t have this problem of police brutality and police being above the law. But no, the police need to buy tanks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

api• 6 years ago

Nice to see this here. Maybe the "hacker" in HN is returning.

Wish I was in Seattle to go check it out. I love this kind of thing.

kf15• 6 years ago

...eh it took two dead versions of this story and multiple emails to the mods for this to get unkilled and it’s still weighted off of the front page. So it took serious effort and intention to front page a story over the power of flag mods and because of weighting still barely got the discussion deserved. I think a lot of people just must defacto flag things that aren’t about software or business?

I would come back here more regularly if I knew that actual huge news would be regularly discussed here, or if I thought interesting articles not about coding had much of a shot.

As good writing about CHAZ keeps happening or the situation evolves I’ll continue trying submissions.

VWWHFSfQ5• 6 years ago

I lived in Seattle Capitol Hill (Harvard Ave by SCCC) area for 10 years and left the state in 2010. I went back a few years ago for a visit and it looked like the homeless population had doubled in the time since. All of King and Pierce counties are completely overrun by homelessness and drug addiction. I remember it was a big deal when they would go sweep out "The Jungle" tent city under I-5 at Beacon Hill. Now they're building tent cities right in the middle of residential neighborhoods.

Seattle and the Puget Sound is a beautiful place but horrible place to live. They have an absolutely useless government that has no idea how to solve any of their problems. So they end up with stuff like this.

jessaustin12• 6 years ago

Recent events cast doubt on your judgment of the government there. Unlike e.g. New York they have dealt somewhat effectively with the pandemic. Seattle was hit first yet seems to have brought the situation under control with fewer deaths than other American cities. At the very least, they didn't force covid-positive patients into old folks' homes.

VWWHFSfQ5• 6 years ago

There's a pretty big difference between Seattle and NYC in terms of size and population density. Like many orders of magnitude difference. But you're right that NYC didn't handle the outbreak very well.

Deimorz• 6 years ago

There was a recent study that discussed the Washington response being so effective because it was based on an assumption that seems to have been wrong: that there was widespread, undetected transmission of the disease starting from the first case in the state on January 15.

The study results show that there was probably another case (or multiple) introduced around February 13, meaning that there had only been about two weeks of community transmission instead of the six that officials thought. But because they thought it had been spreading undetected for six weeks, they reacted very strongly and put in strict measures quickly.

So it was probably technically an "overreaction", but that's what made it so effective and kept the situation from getting as bad there as NYC and other places.

Here's an Ars Technica article about it: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/05/washingtons-covid-19...

And here's the actual study, which also includes a similar situation in early Europe cases: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.21.109322v1

djsumdog14• 6 years ago

Well in Seattle, the major outbreak was in Kirkland at that senior center. We know now even in NYC, the vast majority of fatalities happened in senior and assisted living centers. Over 70% of fatalities in Canada, Ohio and other places have been elderly care centers[0].

It's pretty clear this disease wasn't anywhere near as bad as everyone was predicting, and I expect the 100k US fatality number to drop once a year has past and we can put some real data analysis on it. A lot of people have died due to not being able to get medical care too, and those 2nd order effects of these lockdowns will also be significant.

[0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=70%25+fatalities+senior+centers+co...

xenocyon• 6 years ago

You are correct that Seattle has a tremendous amount of homelessness. The rest of your comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sweeps - which you seem to be advocating - do nothing to solve the problem; meanwhile you ironically criticize tent cities in residential neighborhoods without seeming to understand that a tent city is a residential neighborhood and it is precisely the periodic shutdowns and relocations of tent cities and similar instabilities that exacerbate the homeless problem by blowing folks from place to place.

I wouldn't call Seattle's government "useless", but their effectiveness is certainly diminished by reactionary voters whose moral/punitive emotions get weighed more than evidence-based science on homelessness.

VWWHFSfQ5• 6 years ago

I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just offering an observation as someone that lived there for a decade and loves the area, but now has somewhat of an outsider perspective. Seattle has very deep, fundamental problems that it has no idea how to solve. Homeless tent cities scattered throughout the county are not normal in nearly any other American city. Especially not the ones as wealthy as Seattle. And maybe that is a source of the problem. But it also seems the political leanings of the voters are at odds with the lifestyle they enjoy in the area.

cylinder• 6 years ago

What is your example of a "useful" government in the US?

acidburnNSA3• 6 years ago

Completely overrun by homelessness and drug addiction

I lived in capitol hill for a decade, 3 blocks from CHAZ, and recently moved a mile away. The city is not even remotely overrun with homelessness.

Sure, there are people without homes. Do they seriously impact the lifestyle of others? Hardly at all.

This characterization of the Puget Sound feels way out of touch to me. It's a wonderful place to live.

djsumdog14• 6 years ago

I lived there in 2016, next to the Rite Aid outside (or maybe inside?) the CHAZ. The homeless situation was absolutely terrible for an American city. Sure it's not as bad as shanty towns I've seen in India or Malaysia, but it wasn't good. Housing was/is insane with shared rooms anywhere near the city being $700 and a 1 bedroom to yourself going for ~$2k. Not as bad as SF/The Bay, but still not good by any means.

Sure it's not "overrun," but there are a lot of them, and not enough jobs or affordable housing.

People complained about homeless people coming into the city for the benefits and I thought that was just a myth the Amazon employees would spew, but I talked to a social worker who told me that's true and that her office dealt with a lot of people who came to Seattle because of their programs and benefits.

danharaj3• 6 years ago

"...

The demonstration, an irregular event created by the demonstrators, nevertheless takes place near the city centre, intended for very different uses. The demonstrators interrupt the regular life of the streets they march through or of the open spaces they fill. They ‘cut off these areas, and, not yet having the power to occupy them permanently, they transform them into a temporary stage on which they dramatise the power they still lack.

The demonstrators’ view of the city surrounding their stage also changes. By demonstrating, they manifest a greater freedom and independence – a greater creativity, even although the product is only symbolic – than they can ever achieve individually or collectively when pursuing their regular lives. In their regular pursuits they only modify circumstances; by demonstrating they symbolically oppose their very existence to circumstances.

...

Either authority must abdicate and allow the crowd to do as it wishes: in which case the symbolic suddenly becomes real, and, even if the crowd’s lack of organisation and preparedness prevents it from consolidating its victory, the event demonstrates the weakness of authority. Or else authority must constrain and disperse the crowd with violence: in which case the undemocratic character of such authority is publicly displayed. The imposed dilemma is between displayed weakness and displayed authoritarianism.

..."

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1968/no03...

TomMarius2• 6 years ago

This seems like a false dilemma. There is a third option: Do not tolerate crimes but otherwise let it be.

tomcam• 6 years ago

Have all the business owners whose storefronts are now covered with graffiti ceded their properties to the group voluntarily?

11thEarlOfMar2• 6 years ago

It has reflections of the Summer of Love and 'Human Be Ins'. Instead of racism, the common cause was the Vietnam War. Instead of CHAZ, the Haight Ashbury.

From the descriptions of Seattleites (sorry) in the thread, it seems there may be more to compare than contrast:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_of_Love

Have we been here before?

gorgoiler• 6 years ago

I hadn’t heard of CHAZ until now.

Zona, Galaxy News Radio, Radio Free Europe... so many cultural touchstones for CHAZ to riff on. It must be a designer’s utopia!

It also reminds me of Daily Mail Island but at another end of the political hyperspectrum.

Animats• 6 years ago

They need a political win on something in the next few days. Otherwise this thing fizzles out, is crushed, or turns into a joke like the 2016 bird sanctuary occupation. Some of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" apply.

⬤ "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."

⬤ "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

That's the problem with "defund the police". "We'd all love to see the plan", as John Lennon once put it.

Camden NJ did do this. They fired their entire police department and started over. Sometimes you have to do that. Sometimes you just need to fire the bottom 1-10%. Maybe give randomly-chosen civil grand juries the power to fire cops. Not just for criminal offenses, just for being subpar at being a cop.

joshuamorton2• 6 years ago

There have been lots of mid-sized political wins for these protests. Breanna's law, Minneapolis defunding it's police, etc. It's sustained distributed action, and some of it is not real (the NYC chokehold ban), but there's still real stuff happening.

hoten2• 6 years ago

None of that is a result of CHAZ.

mauflows• 6 years ago

I wouldn't say a chokehold ban is not real. The jury is still out, but it seems restricting use of force can help: https://www.vox.com/2020/6/5/21280402/8-cant-wait-explained-...

remarkEon10• 6 years ago

Camden NJ did do this. They fired their entire police department and started over.

Except that's not really what happened. They fired the existing police force at the time but most were hired back (155 of the 220 that reapplied), and then they expanded to a complement of 401 officers (it was 370 before). Then they built a gigantic surveillance apparatus that tracks pretty much everything. So, more police, more surveillance.

Homicides have apparently declined 63% since they did this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Departmen...

fatbird• 6 years ago

220 reapplied; 155 were hired. Effectively, they fired 65 officers, or 25% of the force, with the stroke of a pen, which is a hell of a bit of housecleaning.

Camden made all members apply for jobs as if coming from another police department, but they had the files of the old department and could look directly at an applicant's job history and see how many complaints of excessive force were present, etc. They purged the worst 25% in starting over and that seemed to make a very large difference.

rosstex• 6 years ago

If you're gonna cite Wikipedia, you need to add this:

Thomson announced that officers would no longer be judged on how many tickets they wrote or arrests they made but on relationships they developed in the community and whether citizens felt safe enough to sit on their front steps or allow their children to ride their bikes in the street. Thomson told the New York Times in 2017 that "aggressive ticket writing" was a sign that officers weren't understanding the new department, saying "handing a $250 ticket to someone who is making $13,000 a year can be life altering." On new recruits' first day, they knock on doors in the neighborhood they're assigned to and introduce themselves.

alkibiades• 6 years ago

send in the 101st airborne

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/seattle-autonomous-zon...

rexarex• 6 years ago

Reminds me of Christiania https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

daenz• 6 years ago

I live nearby but I haven't visited. I've been staying up on different livestreams however. I would say it's a naive waste of time, but clearly it is an outlet for people to feel creative and free, and there is some value in that. I think the long term is that people who support it are going to look back at it and cringe at some of the fantasies being played out.

SI_Rob• 6 years ago

All the clubs, bars, and schools have been shuttered for months. That buildup of stifled young adult socialization energy had to be dumped somewhere.

aazaa• 6 years ago

The first (of several) demands reads:

The Seattle Police Department and attached court system are beyond reform. We do not request reform, we demand abolition. We demand that the Seattle Council and the Mayor defund and abolish the Seattle Police Department and the attached Criminal Justice Apparatus. This means 100% of funding, including existing pensions for Seattle Police. At an equal level of priority we also demand that the city disallow the operations of ICE in the city of Seattle.

https://capitolhillautonomous.zone/demands.html

This is a fascinating experiment that seems to channel a number of forces bubbling just below the surface for decades. The futile, never-ending war on drugs. Police violence. Lack of police accountability. Institutional racism.

What will be more fascinating is what new political parties develop. These demands are well outside the mainstream, but given recent events, not impossible to see being implemented to one degree or another.

But neither party has the alignment of interests for this kind of reform.

Without a political party, it's hard to imagine how anything changes after the banners and barricades come down.

tvanantwerp• 6 years ago

As someone with close ties to an existing third party, they shouldn't put much hope on forming one and seeing it succeed. The American electoral system makes it nearly impossible for third parties to gain traction. And that's before you take into account that the people most likely to join third parties are also the most likely to be fringe personalities with little mainstream appeal and a penchant for causing internal strife.

Taikonerd2• 6 years ago

The American electoral system makes it nearly impossible for third parties to gain traction.

That's true, under the existing system. And that makes it attractive to reform the system, to make it easier for third parties to grow.

For example, approval voting was passed in Fargo recently: https://www.electionscience.org/commentary-analysis/approval...

tl;dr -- third parties can't grow as long as "splitting the vote" is a thing. But some voting systems have that and others don't.

noelsusman2• 6 years ago

A political party won't do much to change the fact that their ideas are opposed by an overwhelming majority of their fellow citizens.

jonlucc• 6 years ago

It is entirely possible that the national parties will never back these reforms, but that local party candidates for city government could see success backing some or all of them.

superfrank• 6 years ago

Oh, Jesus Christ... I live about 3/4s of a mile from the "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone". The way people are talking about this is ridiculous.

It's basically a bunch of wannabe Marxists LARPing.

They call the area "self-governed" and "abandoned", but the city had workers mowing the grass at Cal Anderson Park, two days after it was "established". There are cops sitting like 10 blocks away in case things get out of hand.

CHAZ is basically a block party at this point that the cops letting exist while tensions cool down a bit. If anything started to get of hand, you can be certain the police would be on the scene any moment. It's autonomous in the same way my house is autonomous. The police will let me do my thing until they get wind that I'm doing something decently illegal.

If you want to see a real "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle, 3rd and Pike is your spot. The cops let pretty much anything go there and it's a crap hole.

Edit: I'd like to add, I'm not trying to take anything away from their message. I think these protests need to be happening. I just think it's stupid that people are acting like some outside of the government people first commune has been created when really, it's basically the same as when people set up a bunch of tents in the park during the Occupy movement.

binaryfour2• 6 years ago

If you want to see a real "Autonomous Zone" in Seattle, 3rd and Pike is your spot. The cops let pretty much anything go there and it's a crap hole.

Too true

rantwasp3• 6 years ago

too too true. for more color, the locals call that area McStabbys (also heard CrackDonals). It’s really really bad

Fellshard4• 6 years ago

Pretty much. It's not so much a reason to panic as it is to laugh kinda hysterically, frankly. It's a great comedy show for people with a shred of common sense and a grasp of reality. So long as it doesn't tip into tragedy.

jmpman2• 6 years ago

I’ve always wondered, if a community like this were able to completely leave the US, and didn’t have to pay for the military, or the police, would they be able to fund their own demands for free healthcare, free college, etc? I’m going to guess that overall, the occupants are below the average income level of Seattle, but would they be able to afford the lifestyle they’re requesting?

wombat-man• 6 years ago

I mean, they're setting up shop in the center of a city. They are building on top of everything they claim to not need.

danharaj3• 6 years ago

Is "lifestyle" the most appropriate word you could choose for "access to healthcare and education"?

superdisk• 6 years ago

How is that not appropriate?

jmpman2• 6 years ago

Each of those items have a cost associated with them, at least at a societal level, even if they are provided free to the end consumer. A doctor, even if providing free services in a completely altruistic manner, must eat and be housed, as do college professors. A society must choose how to allocate their resources. Based upon the CHAZ demands, they wish to have a society which provides healthcare and college. I would call that a lifestyle.

My question was, does there exist a sufficient productivity in the population in the CHAZ to provide those services to their population?

From Wikipedia: Lifestyle is the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture.

The demand for access to healthcare and education does seem to be the interest, opinion and behavior of this group.

fallingfrog• 6 years ago

Remember too though that they would likely declare all property to be the property of the people of the zone, which means no rent to any landlords and no overhead going to owners of capital, plus no taxes going to the state, so they would be able to free up a lot of resources. The Zapatistas in Mexico have been quite successful at building a decent health care system out of nothing, despite being some of the poorest people in the world.

IG_Semmelweiss3• 6 years ago

No. If they were lo leave they would take a proportional amount of debt with them, which would render their ability to do anything moot.

It would be a little USA with a foreign currency, all the debt and no effective means to defend itself, should it work the miracle and become successful.

chaoticmass• 6 years ago

Looks like my employer was quick to add this site to the block list of sites we can't access using the company network.

motohagiography2• 6 years ago

I defer to moderators whether this crosses the line on political content.

It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people, many of whom are not PoC, and I think the federal response to this will be tolerance because these people are ultimately vying for institutional power, and feds realize they will all be working for one another in 10 years.

It's less about right/left than how I'd posit if CHAZ were operated by non-college educated people or even was exclusively a movement by people of color, the federal authorities would have already found some pretext for lethal force. It's not like the CHAZ organizers are poor or relatively uneducated people without political recourse, like say, a niche religious sect, some ranchers, or even just a radicalized family - all examples of subjects of federal sieges in recent memory.

Communes and autonomous zones are romantic, but they exist because they are tolerated or explicitly used as a source of volatility by a movement already within the establishment.

If this seems provocative, I'd argue it gets to the crux of the issue of why certain movements are tolerated and others are not. CHAZ is a tactic in a conflict between movements that are far above it within the establishment. That it has not been subject to an ATF-style siege shows it necessarily is the expression of top level political backing.

There are numerous precedents for how this plays out, as it has throughout history in France, Russia, Germany, China, and Cambodia. Unfortunately, the advice I have for people everywhere is above all, you must find a way to resist the isolation, paralysis, and atomization that separates people from their communities, which will be used to cow people into tolerating horrible things that will themselves just build momentum. The only way for CHAZ and related movements to yield peace is for people to recognize that before their relationships to these movements (positive or negative), you are members of families, neighbourhoods, communities, trades, professions, regions, and not insignificant atoms subject to global forces of history and nature. Especially if ostensibly isolated acts of terror begin.

I think it is urgent to recognize that there are precedents for what's happening today that provide predictive power to how this could play out, and to equip people with a reminder to above all resist political atomization, especially when it becomes hard to do so, because it deprives us all of our humanity, which is the only thing standing between us and the darkest chapters of history.

carapace• 6 years ago

Capitol Hill is the gay neighborhood of Seattle. Could you imagine the reaction if the feds raided the Castro district in San Francisco for hosting a mostly-peaceful TAZ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

495312• 6 years ago

It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people, many of whom are not PoC

Do you have a source for this? I haven't been able to find a list of people involved in organizing this.

motohagiography2• 6 years ago

Not a source I'd be willing to provide, especially given such lists are precisely what political organizers avoid sharing. However, as an exercise, you can see the make up of the civil society organizations and businesses who provide funding and support for social causes, and neither of these are made up of the uneducated or working poor.

scarythoughts• 6 years ago

Is assumption here that if you are a technical enthusiast and read this site, you have to support whatever leftist phenomenon is happening? This has nothing to do with technology at all.

dgellow8• 6 years ago

Now that’s an impressive achievement: https://www.reddit.com/r/CapHillAutonomousZone/comments/h7km...

“Black lives matter” art painting in the street.

Splendid!

dgellow8• 6 years ago

I don’t understand why would someone downvote this comment... anyone willing to explain the issue with it? It’s just a link to great art made at CHAZ, I don’t see how that can be taken negatively.

jhallenworld• 6 years ago

"Autonomous Zone" is a reference to this book by Hakim Bey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

It's an interesting read..

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-...

catacombs3• 6 years ago

Serious question: What's to stop Seattle Police or state authorities from removing people from CHAZ? I wouldn't be surprised if there are city, state and federal officials drawing up probable cause to shut it down.

rovolo2• 6 years ago

Protestors occupied the intersection of 11th and Pine (1 block from the police station) for multiple nights prior to the police abandoning the precinct. The police tried clearing people multiple nights with tear gas and flash-bangs, but the images and video of clearing the protestors night after night became politically unsavory. They probably won't try evicting people from the area again because they didn't succeed politically the previous times they tried.

(Plus, tear gas would seep into the nearby residential buildings)

https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/after-mayors-spee...

catacombs3• 6 years ago

They probably won't try evicting people from the area again because they didn't succeed politically the previous times they tried.

Interesting. The city might not, but feds might try, as they probably don't have much to lose.

kenneth• 6 years ago

I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

chimeracoder• 6 years ago

I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

From the webpage:

Fundamentally, CHAZ is an occupation of Capitol Hill, not an official declaration of independence.

They are fairly clear that their ultimate goal is neither secession or independence. The area was abandoned by the police in a political move, and CHAZ is occupying it as a statement of how they would like to see the city as a whole run instead.

mcv10• 6 years ago

Not only that, but those secessionist statues being turn down, are about people who lead a violent rebellion against the US in order to protect their ability to enslave people.

This protest is quite the opposite in nearly every possible way.

enumjorge• 6 years ago

That misses the point. The problem people have with the statues is that they honor people who they feel promoted/protected the subjugation of another group. They’re not taking offense to the act of secession.

gerbal• 6 years ago

secessionist monuments

You misspelled white supremacist. All of the confederate monuments I know of were built during _CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENTS_ as an expression of power by white supremacist governments and political traditions.

commandlinefan3• 6 years ago

As a die-hard libertarian, I'm amused by a group that's been telling libertarians for decades that we should move to Somalia if we like living without government so much and then creating a purely libertarian social experiment the first chance they get. If this doesn't dissolve into complete chaos it's a vindication of libertarian principles.

orthecreedence• 6 years ago

I think you're missing the economic aspect. People don't tell libertarian socialists/communists to move to Somalia. Only libertarian capitalists get told that, and it's because of the perceived notion that companies seeking profit without the regulation of a strongish government resort to some pretty awful things. And there is some great historical precedence for this.

elric• 6 years ago

Any chance of this turning into something like Copenhagen's "Freetown Christiania"?

throwaway98asfd• 6 years ago

Interesting and relevant speech from Abe Lincoln: http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/lyceum....

sirgg0119• 6 years ago

Everythings peaceful... for now. What happens when something gets out of hand. It's always easiest in the beginning when everyone's on the same page. Given time disagreements are bound to flare up.

kyleblarson2• 6 years ago

My first thought was 'I feel bad for the people who spent a million bucks on a condo in Pike / Pine', but my second thought was that these are likely also people who voted for people like Sawant so they made their own bed.

umeshunni• 6 years ago

Given that Sawant won with a tiny majority, that's an unfair judgement of those people.

golf10522• 6 years ago

Sawant was running for re-election for her third term. She wasn't an unknown political figure.

growlist• 6 years ago

Does anyone think this would not have been crushed without mercy if the protestors were 'white supremacists'? Serious question.

The irony is that if these AZs were permitted it could give said segregationists exactly what they had been after for decades.

headcanon• 6 years ago

well this thing did happen in Charlottesville a couple years ago, and resulted in massive counterprotests by the left. I would imagine the same would happen here.

In terms of declaring themselves "autonomous", I'm thinking (and I imagine others in power are thinking as well) that this is simply done as a statement of protest, rather than an actual serious attempt to form a sovereign government. So crushing this without mercy is politically infeasable, especially given that the whole protest is about police and justice reform. I don't think this sets any kind of legal precedent. Better let them make the statement and let it run its course on its own.

jwilber2• 6 years ago

Serious answer. Hoping for an actual reply but if feels like you’re just baiting given your “white supremacist” line in quotes (???).

If you mean to ask what would happen if white people took it over? Having been through chaz a few times, the population is overwhelming white (Seattle itself is only ~7% black). Capitol Hill is itself a white, gentrified area.

Or do you mean actual white supremacists? Charleston went down fine without a hitch. I seem to recall our President call them some, “very fine people.” [1] I also don’t recall any police response to the recent armed Michigan courthouse takeover.

I did, however, see multiple beatings and tear gas used against protestors for no reason at peaceful, unarmed protest events.

Maybe you can explain why you out “white supremacists” in quotes? Maybe you could list some recent examples of protestors being “crushed without mercy”? (I can list plenty, but none that are white movements. Please inform me!)

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/tru...

namrog84• 6 years ago

Not OP. But lots of people just use single quotes for emphasis. And not neccesarily the way i think you think it to mean. Not sure OP intention but kust wanted to say lots of people use single quote to imply italicized(emphasis).

jeremiahhs• 6 years ago

Just as the right wing Proud Boys in New York were ruthlessly put away by the criminal justice system, while no just example was made of left wing antifa.

dickjocke2• 6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati...

Like this scenario in 2016 that ended when the last far-right occupiers of a national wildlife refugee left after 6 weeks?.

AuryGlenz5• 6 years ago

That was the news story of the month. This has barely been talked about in most of the media.

andred14• 6 years ago

good for you Capitol Hill your friends in Vancouver support you :)

oh_sigh• 6 years ago

If this is going to be anything like the autonomous zones I've visited in Berlin and Copenhagen, it is going to be filled with graffiti, drug dealing, and not much else in terms of public use.

rayhendricks• 6 years ago

Walked though it yesterday, wearing a mask. The majority of people are also wearing masks and seem to be peaceful. Mostly a bunch of protestors and people milling about. There was one argument right by the speaker, but it didn’t look violent. Here is a link to my video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8kktcXopLDdFKbQP9 IMO it will last a month or two then engine will get bored and it will fizzle.

subsubzero• 6 years ago

If you are trying to start a respectable state at least spell correctly, it really makes people not take it seriously:

siezed!! by anarchists, BLM supporters and other protestors who have since transformed it into a unverisal!!

ChristianBundy3• 6 years ago

anarchists
state

Why would you think that anarchists are trying to start a state?

renegading4• 6 years ago

Is this comparable to the Paris Commune?

aaron695• 6 years ago

They already have a warlord, they aren't just LARPing

https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/raz-simone-accused-of-acting-l...

erulabs• 6 years ago

I have mixed feelings on my own reaction to this. A huge part of me loves this - and supports a huge chunk of their demands. Then they talk about free housing and rent control... and I can feel myself shy away. I can imagine how other moderates / economics students / actual conservatives might react. It pains me to have to split my values. Do you support good intentions paired with policies you believe will cause more harm than good - or do you side with policies you agree with even though it makes you an “enemy” to the peer culture you yearn to belong to. Republicans won’t listen to comments about open borders, and Democrats won’t listen to comments about the issues with nationalization.

This has been my political problem my whole life. Agree with old white boomers on tax policy and with young radicals on immigration policy. Far too often my brain says “keep your mouth shut” - “save it for other Econ nerds” - and I’m beginning to think I’m no longer OK with that conclusion. Support to Seattle!

vsmatck• 6 years ago

If anyone is interested in an unfiltered view of CHAZ I've been going down there every day and filming. Here's a link to the first video in my playlist about CHAZ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJblgfCwWtU&list=PLlgnc9Wjog...

I can confirm that the media isn't accurately representing what's there. It was a little crazy up until last Sunday (before the formation of CHAZ, right before the police left). It's totally peaceful now. People are bringing their families down there. I've even been there in the middle of the night and it's fine.

Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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