House cats have more impact on local wildlife than wild predators

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/18/820953617/the-killer-at-home-house-cats-have-more-impact-on-local-wildlife-than-wild-preda

by nkzednan • 6 years ago

145 158 6 years ago

npr.org

Kaiyou3• 6 years ago

It's a cat, so it can do no wrong. If the cat is pleased by killing wildlife, the wildlife has to die.

shrimp_emoji• 6 years ago

Downvoting someone for suffering from toxoplasmosis is ableism.

leetcrew2• 6 years ago

wrong thread?

Kaiyou3• 6 years ago

Toxoplasmosis is a hateful term invented by dog people to discredit people serving the cat master race.

Tiktaalik2• 6 years ago

"The big concern is where we have an overlap of people and cats with native species that are small and vulnerable," Kays said.

Kind of the key question here. Does your local jurisdiction have native species that live in towns and cities that are vulnerable? Some places are different than others. In some places the typical small city bird may even be an introduced species.

In New Zealand for example yes absolutely. Other places maybe not so much...

It is absolutely wild to me how laissez faire Kiwis are about the right to have their cats roam while at the same time being so militant against other mammals (including dogs!).

112358132134555• 6 years ago

Other places maybe not so much...

You probably don't notice them, all little birds, insects, lizards, hedgehogs (I saw a cat mauling one once, same with lizards and birds),..

Actually, in my city, near woods, there's a small outdoor refuge for "wild cats" as the woman I talked to call them. She was feeding them, so I wonder how wild they are and how much they harm the local ecosystem, on top of all the other pets

I think there's an unhealthy addiction and love for pets. If you like animals, you could let them live normally in their natural habitat, and observe them once in a while. I hope this mentality will change

__s• 6 years ago

Domestic cats have a natural habitat in households. Owners who keep their cats indoors or on leash outside don't impact wildlife. Cultural education of not letting cats roam is likely to have more progress than arguing for banning pets. Besides, staying indoors is healthier for cats anyways

Tiktaalik2• 6 years ago

What I mean is like, if your cat kills a house finch that means something different depending on where you live. In you're in Western NA your cat killed a native bird, but if you're in Eastern NA or Hawaii, it killed an introduced bird which competes with native birds.

In the worst cases (ie. NZ) your cat may be killing literally endangered birds.

x86_64Ubuntu• 6 years ago

As someone else mentioned, dogs can harm a human quite easily while cats couldn't care less about us.

bangonkeyboard2• 6 years ago

https://xkcd.com/1775/

"How easy it is to grow up without learning [that cat bites are really serious and if bitten you need to wash the bite and call a doctor immediately]"

klyrs2• 6 years ago

I've been bitten badly by a cat -- he gets angry when he's hungry. When I got up to pee at 4am, he was all friendly -- when I went back to bed, he lunged at my foot and chomp. That was like the first or second time I spent the night; only my gf can actually touch him without getting slashed up. I got lucky, but cat mouths are nasty and bites typically get very badly infected.

True, most cats are very prudent about human interaction -- most strays will avoid you. But if a stray has been taught to expect food, or gets cornered, they can do a surprising amount of damage

willis936• 6 years ago

I live in a city that has a large wild rabbit population. It surprised me when I first moved here. They are very cute and pose no threat to anything besides weeds/grass.

The city also has a large variety of songbirds, which people generally like.

On a low level, I don't mind when I see cats patrolling the block. They're little human friends. They sometimes sit with me on the porch. However, I do think it's a bad practice to have an outdoor cat. I adopted a cat very recently and I will be keeping it indoors (against its wishes). It will have to be content killing virtual prey.

cjensen• 6 years ago

Yes. Here's a concrete example:

Google has (or had) a stray cat feeding station at the Plex. When birders complained, the security threatened the birders if "anything happened to the cats." The Plex is located next door to wetlands containing two endangered species that are at risk of predation.

paleogizmo• 6 years ago

Something I haven't seen data on is how much domestic cat predation compares with population change from habitat loss/modification. The population density of some bird species increases in suburban areas where domestic cats are likely to be present. I suspect the impact of outdoor cats (at least on North American songbirds) is overstated.

jeroenhd• 6 years ago

Of course animals like cats will kill more in a given area if they don't stray out. I also don't see very much of a problem with that, given that most densely populated neighbourhoods have a want for large amounts of rodents and birds.

bangonkeyboard2• 6 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife

"As an invasive species and superpredator, they do considerable ecological damage. In Australia, hunting by cats helped to drive at least 20 native mammals to extinction, and continues to threaten at least 124 more. Their introduction has caused the extinction of at least 33 endemic species on islands throughout the world. Feral and domestic cats kill billions of birds in the United States every year, where songbird populations continue to decline."

kenned3• 6 years ago

As a dog owner, i have always wondered why my indoor dog needs an annual license, while my neighbourhood is saturated in unlicensed "wild" cats??

Seems like utter crap, and it is clear the cats are killing the local birds.

Spoppys• 6 years ago

Because dogs pose a substantially greater threat to human life than cats do.

djrogers3• 6 years ago

I’m sorry, but that’s a severe over-generalization. My 6lb 3-legged rescue is far less of a threat to humans than even a small kitten...

traderjane3• 6 years ago

IMO what’s important isn’t merely whether something poses proximal danger to human life (which asks for immediate and more severe solutions), but whether something poses greater community burden on a level where it’s hard to trust an individual to self regulate.

Owning any equipment or process with bad waste or ecological burden should also require extra licensing under the same rationale.

amelius• 6 years ago

Makes me wonder, how do you most effectively avert danger when you're being attacked by a dog?

asjw2• 6 years ago

Dogs can kill humans and since they can they do, especially babies

djrogers3• 6 years ago

If you can point me to any evidence showing that dogs are less likely to do this in areas that have licensing, I would consider supporting that.

Glavnokoman• 6 years ago

As a cat owner I do not understand why the "indoor" dog needs license either. I would mandate the leash at all times on all dogs > 15kg but the license... If that's not a "fighter" dog the license requirement is just stupid.

salawat• 6 years ago

Out of curiosity, is a "fighter dog" anything like an "assault rifle" to you per chance? I.e. poorly/subjectively defined and amorphous to the point of becoming a functional drop-in for "thing I don't think someone else needs"?

Not trying to derail or start a flamewar, but wanted to point out that there is a kind of rhetorical distinction-without-a-difference-making at work there, that I've noticed tends to be completely innocent and well-intentioned, but left unchecked for what it is leads to some absolutely farcical legislative outcomes.

Dog fighting is already illegal; and licensing on whether a dog meets some nebulous, ill-defined criteria by which it is judged to be a "fighter dog" or not seems ill-advised as a productive expenditure of governmental oversight.

That I think the same logic already extends to firearms is tangential to the topic at hand, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway in the interests of dispelling any speculation as to there being secretive ulterior motives.

Anywho, back on topic; I let my boys out onto a woefully undersized porch, but we have a stray cat colony next door, and no fence. So I'm leery of letting them wander around too much. Especially since we had a scare with one of them over a rather strong reaction to a an immunization booster given too early because we couldn't find paperwork for one of them having gotten a rabies shot. I've been gunshy a bit because the vet that readministered the vaccination was totally prepared to amputate the limb before biopsy results came in in and if it weren't for getting a second opinion our boy may be a tripod now.

I find any law that leads to something like that to be a rather antagonistic application of force, and requirement to induce pain and suffering. Yes, I collect immunization records like a hawk now, but injection site sarcoma fears are not something I wish on anyone.

csdreamer7• 6 years ago

Because dogs get out, roam the street, get hit by cars, and bite people. You need a license to report to/sue the person who allows this.

Cats climb trees and can hide easily if they get scared.

djrogers3• 6 years ago

That does seem silly - dogs font need licenses where I live, and given that mine are never out without a leash and aren’t bolters, I’m darned glad I don’t have that kind of ridiculous nanny-statism to deal with.

patpatpat• 6 years ago

Those licenses pay for the dog pound, and help the local govt control the number of dogs. You are only allowed 2 registered dogs, all dogs must be registered etc...

meej• 6 years ago

Wait, where do you live that doesn't require licensing for cats? Licensing and registration is an important intervention for control of rabies and animal overpopulation, as well as facilitating the return of lost pets. Everywhere I've lived in the US, both cats and dogs have to be licensed. Owners have to provide proof of rabies vaccination, and registration costs more for animals that haven't been spayed or neutered.

dkdk82832• 6 years ago

That’s bullshit. I have a cat and there is no requirement to register etc. What I do or what animals I support in my home is nobody’s business

Spooky23• 6 years ago

Cats and birds attract crazy people as advocates and enablers and the negative behaviors they engage in are more invisible.

Feral dogs fight more and are scary to people. Feral cats just kill everything in sight and attract pity.

bumbledraven• 6 years ago

http://newanimalcontrol.org/newsystem.shtml proposes a sensible dog licensing system that "gauge[s] the competence of those who want to take their dogs out onto the public streets. Those who can prove that they have perfect voice control over their dogs can become licensed to walk them off lead, while others may be forbidden to take their dogs out among the public at all. It all depends on the animal's behavior and the owner's demonstrated ability to control him."

rjsw2• 6 years ago

Dogs can kill livestock. The birds that cats kill don't have a commercial value.

JadeNB• 6 years ago

The title was truncated ("predators" to "pred").

HarryHirsch• 6 years ago

You ask how much wildlife there is in urban and suburban areas to begin with. The wildlife that lives there is all generalist, if a cat takes a mouse, squirrel, starling or blackbird it's a bit bloody but not really important in the great scheme of things.

ranDOMscripts• 6 years ago

The butterflies & migrating birds would likely beg to differ.

lostlogin2• 6 years ago

Zealandia in Wellington, New Zealand has been a key part of a massive change in suburban wildlife. The changes made have resulted in many more birds (including quite rare ones) in the centre of town. https://www.visitzealandia.com/

jfoucher• 6 years ago

The only effective solution I have found so far to prevent my cat from hunting too many small animals is to have her wear a bell. Is seems that prey are scared away and manage to escape. Before we put it on we used to find dead mice, lizards and birds everyday in the garden or in front of the door...

Kalium• 6 years ago

Some cats seem to take this as a challenge. I've definitely seen cats that both wear bells and kill lots of birds.

93po2• 6 years ago

Why not keep her indoors? It's much safer for her and doubles life expectancy and doesn't contribute to the problem being discussed

majkinetor• 6 years ago

No "solution" is needed, there is no problem.

Tade0• 6 years ago

For this reason we walk our cat. With some training (and some - not all - cats) you can even get rid of the leash and let the animal roam whilst maintaining visual contact.

It's very different from walking a dog. Ours usually hides in his favourite spot and just sits there for 20 minutes straight, then takes his usual route, sniffing and rubbing his face on places where apparently other cats have been.

The upside is that you only need to do that once every 2-3 days.

Now that we're on quarantine he's been calling out other cats from the balcony. Fortunately on Monday we'll be allowed outside, so he'll get the chance to catch up with his buddies - or actually - their scents.

hanniabu• 6 years ago

I'm what you would call an accidental crazy cat person that started off feeding one feral cat but was unable to catch and get fixed and wound up multiplying (finally have it under control). One of the cats was great and would just naturally walk with you. We live about a block away from a grocery store and it would walk with us to the start of the parking lot where we'd just tell him stay and he lays down and waits until we come back and walks with us back to the house. People would always be amused seeing this and how much it resembled the behavior of a dog. Probably one of the best cats we've had.

janderland2• 6 years ago

My family owner over 20 cats (some died) before I turned 18. Same reason: we didn’t fix the first female. My favorite cat would always take walks with me around the block. She passed away while I was in college. Really showed me how cool of a pet a cat can be.

dkdk82832• 6 years ago

Fortunately on Monday we'll be allowed outside

I would suggest you should go outside anyway.

bashallah• 6 years ago

I walk my two cats every morning, neither use a leash. Trained them to run to the front door if they get scared. I use sounds like snapping or clapping for re-direction or warnings.

They’re even trained to return to the front door when I say “Haus”.

Then a treat when they are good, which is everyday!

Cat’s do very well with a solid routine.

tasssko• 6 years ago

Do you walk them in public spaces or is this in your garden?

clairity2• 6 years ago

that's awesome! my dog is under voice control and is soccially appropriate/reserved around other dogs, so i can walk her without a leash. i've been thinking about trying to train my cat to walk with us (on a leash, as she's skittish outside right now), but haven't had the gumption to do so yet.

somewhereoutth• 6 years ago

Apparently cats can catch novel Coronavirus - there is a danger they may become natural reservoirs, in which case we may have to get rid of them.

josephorjoe• 6 years ago

Apparently humans can catch novel Coronavirus . . .

twojacobtwo• 6 years ago

What was your motivation in posting this?

adjkant• 6 years ago

Seems like that is mostly false at best:

"CDC is aware of a very small number of pets, including dogs and cats, outside the United States reportedexternal icon to be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 after close contact with people with COVID-19. CDC has not received any reports of pets becoming sick with COVID-19 in the United States. To date, there is no evidence that pets can spread the virus to people.

The first caseexternal icon of an animal testing positive for the virus that causes COVID-19 in the United States was a tiger with a respiratory illness at a zoo in New York City. Samples from this tiger were taken and tested after several lions and tigers at the zoo showed signs of respiratory illness. Public health officials believe these large cats became sick after being exposed to a zoo employee who was actively shedding virus. This investigation is ongoing."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/...

aaron695• 6 years ago

If you find it concerning work on cat to human covid-19 transmission.

Governments seem to be ignoring this because politically it would be a nightmare.

If it transmits cat-cat(seems proven) and cat-human, killing all the cats would save lives, how many cats hang out at nursing homes?

fit2rule• 6 years ago

Cats and dogs are slaves.

Jazgot3• 6 years ago

My cat doesn't care about wild life at all. She spends a lot of time in the garden and birds even have learned that they can walk near her without any issues.

nannal• 6 years ago

That could be inadvertently teaching the wild life they can approach any cat which will have the expected result.

Jazgot3• 6 years ago

That could, but most likely it is just teaching them that my quite specific cat in my garden is different. They are clever beasts.

waynecochran2• 6 years ago

My cat catches mice, birds, baby rabbits, lizards, snakes. Half the time she eats the heads off the mouse / baby rabbit -- the other half of the time she brings them in the house to play with. She is a murderer, but she is a cuddly murderer.

Jazgot3• 6 years ago

She brings them to the house to teach you how to hunt.

theshrike795• 6 years ago

The local rabbits learned the same thing about our dog, he just loved to chase them away to see them run and then just strutted back proudly. He had no intention or drive to actually catch them.

The rabbits got wise of this in a week or two and just took a quick sprint and resumed eating instead of running all the way to the woods =)

kyleblarson• 6 years ago

https://www.wsj.com/articles/stay-home-back-to-work-a-dog-an...

vlan0• 6 years ago

It's yet another problem that relies on each individual to make decisions that benefit the whole.

waynecochran2• 6 years ago

There is a lady down the street that feeds raccoons. Raccoons cary several horrible diseases:

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/baylisascaris/prevent.html

Occasionally I burn their latrines cause these diseases scare me to death. NO NOT FEED RACCOONS! Walt Disney is lying to you -- they are nasty creatures to have around.

chiefalchemist• 6 years ago

Some may want to read this as well. From The Atlantic circa 2013.

The End of Cats: An Interview With the New Zealand Economist Calling to Eliminate All Kitties

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end...

tyjen3• 6 years ago

Kill all feral and free roaming invasive, domestic cat species. Domestic cats belong indoors and not outside.

zelon88• 6 years ago

You surely don't mean other people's properly identifiable pets, do you?

dang3• 6 years ago

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. A topic this is emotional enough as it is, with people hating other people's favorite animals and other people hating back. If you post something cheap and nasty like this, you're dropping a lit match into a petrol tank. We need better than that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tyjen3• 6 years ago

I apologize for starting a stirring the pot, that was not my intent. It's more serious issue than people give it credit. Anyone who spent significant time in the Hawaiian islands may be able to speak to large herds of domestic cats roaming the islands.

The comment is not designed to take a thread into a flamewar, it's a legitimate grievance based on living in habitats destroyed by released domestic cats. I don't hate cats, I own an indoor cat. Removing them from a habitat they do not belong to is no different than government agencies encouraging the removal of snakehead fish from U.S. waterways. They're both destructive, predatory species hurting native species, the only underlying difference is that cats garner the irrational support of humans to exist in a feral/outdoor state and destroy with impunity (cuteness bias?).

candyman• 6 years ago

I used to battle with mice all the time at my little cabin in the woods and then a neighbor moved in with a cat that "hunts" outside my cabin all night. Haven't had a mouse problem in years. I've never seen a dead bird anywhere and the cat never seems to hunt during the day.

e40• 6 years ago

I had a destructive mouse and rat problem (chewing things in the walls) until a cat adopted us.

Leary• 6 years ago

It's amazing how adoptable cats are both to domesticated life and to life in the wild. Is there a way for evolution to work its magic and for species hunted by cats to develop countermeasures?

vharuck• 6 years ago

This is the way evolution works. The species of the future don't come from responsive adaptation, but from not dying before reproduction. Now with a new cause of death, those species are in danger of no longer existing like nearly all species across history.

112358132134555• 6 years ago

sadly cats are not only good predators, they're cherished and fed by people, and just go hunting for exercise. A bit of an unfair advantage

jld• 6 years ago

Is there any ethical and easy way to keep cats out of my yard?

I live in an suburban single family neighborhood where the houses are close together. (5000sq lots) There are 3 or 4 different solitary cats I see slinking through my yard from time to time. They all seem like outdoor house cats as opposed to feral cats.

I try to hiss at them and scare them off but they come back. Is there a method that will encourage them to avoid my yard?

missedthecue• 6 years ago

Depends how you define ethical...

theli0nheart• 6 years ago

Yes, but it’ll take some work. Get a dog.

xenospn• 6 years ago

Water. Cats do not like water.

mindslight2• 6 years ago

Open the door and put down a bowl of food...

thomk• 6 years ago

Are they causing a specific problem? They are probably keeping your house rodent free.

112358132134555• 6 years ago

and any other wild animals free, it's all clean!</sarcasm>

youngtaff2• 6 years ago

In my case they crap in my vegetable patch, and it contains toxoplasmosis

jfk13• 6 years ago

There are products that are supposed to deter cats, though I don't know how well they work or whether there are associated risks to other creatures. I remember one that claimed it was based on lion dung, and would make the cats think someone much bigger and scarier already owned the territory...

droopyEyelids• 6 years ago

I have the opposite of your problem, live in a city where there is a huge rat problem, I let my cats go outside, and they poop in my neighbor's garden.

I bought him a motion activated lawn sprinkler, which did work, but he was still angry the cats would come anywhere on his property.

There are also little motion activated cans of pet corrector, too.

bowlich• 6 years ago

Skunk traps and cat food.

If cat's get into my traps, they just get dumped at the pound. Their owners can go pick up their little invasive darlings there.

But they usually don't get near my yard due to the hounds guarding the chickens.

bobmaxup• 6 years ago

You should just shoot them, as you are halfway there.

https://www.alleycat.org/resources/cat-fatalities-and-secrec...

hiram112• 6 years ago

I understand it's your right to control your own yard, but if someone trapped my own cat and dumped it off at the pound, I wouldn't be too happy.

If it were my cat who kept being dumped off at the pound, after being attracted to the cat food you purposefully left out to trap him, I'm guessing you'd start having some strange issues with your cable / fiber line constantly being cut.

lowdose• 6 years ago

You have to get a number 2 of a big cat. So at your local zoo ask for tiger dump. This will leave your property untouched, I have done this myself several times.

93po2• 6 years ago

Motion activated sprinkler, or sometimes even just a sound machine, would work very well

pvaldes4• 6 years ago

Is there any ethical and easy way to keep cats out of my yard?

Automatic sprinklers with motion sensors work well

dghughes• 6 years ago

Then again how many types of birds are invasive species in the Americas? Pigeons, doves, starlings, sparrows, finches and I'm sure many more.

For mammals some mice, rabbit and squirrel species are invasive species too.

Invasive cats killing invasive animals. It seems cats like small birds and mammals that tend to be invasive.

112358132134555• 6 years ago

The problem is they don't really target invasive species, except maybe squirrels, from what I can see. They don't seem very interested in pigeons for example, while they clearly chase and sometimes kill nightingale, robins, magpies, and many other little birds around, lizards too, probably some butterflies who didn't ask for it too, all of them participate actively in the ecosystem health

rjsw2• 6 years ago

The cats of my neighbour kill pigeons, even with bells on the cats' collars.

pjc50• 6 years ago

This, incidentally, is why I don't take people who make the "wind turbines kill birds" argument seriously. It's not false, but the number is very small compared to those killed by domestic cats and window collisions. So the loss is minimal provided they're not in a breeding area for an endangered species.

tachyonbeam• 6 years ago

I'm also thinking that birds will adapt because it seems like a relatively simple change in their behavior would fix the problem. Natural selection will play its course. The birds who are dumb enough to fly into wind turbines will get weeded out. Future generations of bird will be more fearful of wind turbines. This kind of selection can start to take place over a relatively short span of time. See peppered moth evolution [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

quicklime• 6 years ago

How long would it take for natural selection to play its course though? Moths live for maybe a year, while a bird might live for a few decades.

And the soot from the industrial revolution would've covered the entire environment for a peppered moth, whereas many birds fly over incredibly large distances, which wind turbines will only cover a small fraction of.

grawprog• 6 years ago

Wind turbines also kill bats,

http://www.batcon.org/resources/for-specific-issues/wind-pow...

Current research suggests that the overwhelming majority of bat fatalities are caused by collisions with turbine blades. There is some evidence to suggest that a phenomenon known as barotrauma may result in a small proportion of bat deaths, as well. Barotrauma involves tissue damage to air-containing structures, such as lungs, caused by rapid or excessive pressure change. Air pressure changes can occur at the edges of moving turbine blades and may help explain some bat fatalities.
Between 2000 and 2011, an estimated 650,000 to 1.3 million bats have died from collisions with wind turbines in the United States and Canada (Arnett and Baerwald 2013). Additionally, as many as 400,000 estimated fatalities may have occurred in 2012.
in the U.S. and Canada, at least 24 species of bats have been reported as killed by wind turbines. The hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus), eastern red bat (Lasiurus borealis) and silver-haired bat (Lasionycteris noctivagans), all migratory tree bats, account for nearly 78% of the kills north of Mexico. The hoary bat accounts for 38% of the fatalities. A new study that looked at hoary bat mortality at wind energy facilities during 2014 revealed that populations of the species may plunge by a staggering 90 percent in the next 50 years if no action is taken.
At some sites in the Midwest and Eastern U.S., species that are already battered by White-nose Syndrome (WNS), can account for up to 60% of wind-energy fatalities.

Two federally endangered species, the Hawaiian hoary bat (Lasiurus cinereus semotus) and the Indiana myotis (Myotis sodalis), also have been killed by turbines.

gorgoiler• 6 years ago

Do turbine installations use bat deterrents to drive populations to safety?

detaro• 6 years ago

This is not a good argument given that the victim populations typically are different species. The hawk population cares about cats eating songbirds just in so far that it removes some of their own food supply, not because it is threatened by cats.

pvaldes4• 6 years ago

There is also a big quality difference. Turbines kill raptors, eagles, storks and vultures. And some hunters kill huge amounts of migratory birds. You need to put all things together.

Birds know well that cats are dangerous. The real problem is the habitat loss and pesticides. The first force birds to nest in dangerous suboptimal places, where cats can catch them. The second makes them much more vulnerable to cats.

Windows crashes take its toll also.

jyounker2• 6 years ago

My understanding is that the idea that wind turbines kill birds in huge numbers is based on the original wind turbines. These were much smaller in radius and had many more blades and spun much faster.

Think of a giant farm water-pump windmill. Those things were bird blenders. Modern three blade wind turbines are a different beast, but many people have not caught up with the changes in engineering.

[ Also, some of the initial wind farms using the bird blenders (e.g. the Altamont Pass near Livermore, CA) were right on the Pacific Flyway, which is a massive migratory path. ]

pgtan• 6 years ago

What is this mass psychosis of feeling the urge to own a dog or cat anyway? And how it comes, that environmentalists don't get loud on the harm on nature caused by domestic cats and dogs?

lostlogin2• 6 years ago

It’s a coming pain point in New Zealand. We aim to become predator free as a country. https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-fr...

BostonFern5• 6 years ago

I've spent a lot of time living around wild cats, and I've yet to see a cat hunt a bird. Of course cats do hunt birds, but I'm very curious about how these figures are reached, in this case, how reliable those isotope studies are.

Incidentally, here's a critical take of a study on the amount of wildlife cats kill that made headlines in 2013 cited in the article, also by NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we...

shepardrtc• 6 years ago

A published study is more reliable than anecdotal evidence.

BostonFern5• 6 years ago

I'm not at all implying that my personal experience outweighs any study.

Speaking of published studies, the article I linked sheds an interesting light on one particularly relevant study.

dang3• 6 years ago

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

hohloma• 6 years ago

Another anecdote - my cat was 100% indoor first 6-8 month I had him. Then I started to let him outside during day and he started immediately to try to hunt. His first attempts were hilarious, like trying to hide just by laying down and flap around with his tail from excitement, birds would look funny at him and just casually jump away if he got too close. He also wore a bell all of the time, which made it even more impossible. But after half a year he started to consistently kill 1-3 animals per season, birds and mice. One time he killed a huge pigeon. And thats only the kills I know of, since he brought them back home to show off. Not saying that can account for billions, but thats just one cat who had everything against him and also was well fed at home.

WorkLobster• 6 years ago

Allow me to contribute another experience. At various times, I've lived alongside twelve different pet cats, owned by family members who were also avid birdwatchers; usually, the garden would be crowded with birds at the feeders.

In terms of individuals among the cats, I guess about half have tried to stalk and catch the birds, and of those probably about half were effective. But in terms of impact, that seemingly small quarter punched above their weight to be a total menace. Carcasses of the birds and other animals (even rabbits!) would keep showing up until they were stopped with a bell collar. If left to their own devices, I don't have trouble imagining they'd put a huge dent in the local ecosystem.

Der_Einzige• 6 years ago

Maybe I'll say what a lot of people are already thinking but may not want to say out loud:

I don't care

Until someone can show me strong evidence that cat related hunting of this wildlife has a short or even long term affect on humans (through biodiversity loss of keystone species for example) than I think that the utility gained from enjoying the company of the local feline hunters is worth it. Frankly, I don't give a damn about pidgons or whatever else they're hunting until it impacts me directly. Shun my egoism with your Christian inspired morality all you want but at heart the vast majority of people are egoists in denial anyway.

Maybe I got the parasite as a serial cat owner and that's what's motivating me to talk this way but there seems to be an opposite parasite going around since many here are openly calling for folks to murder domestic house cats who are allowed to roam outside.

Part of what I'm articulating is based on my fundemental belief in anthropocentrism which I've never understood to be a bad word. Humans have more value-to-life than wild animals. The animals humans care about (like pets) have more value-to-life than pidgons. The alternative to this view (animal and human value to life is comparable) is veganism and you see how often that view shunned by the public at large.

Admittedly, nature is pretty messed up and it'd nice if house cats would be better about not causing their prey to suffer on the way out - but nature doesn't seem to care about morality so I'll give cats a pass as "not being ethical actors" on this one...

loso• 6 years ago

The fact that cats hunt have been helpful to me in the past. Twice while I was living in an apartment building all of my neighbors had problems with mice. Once in New York and once in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts before my girlfriend came to live with me, I would see the mice. After she came to live with me with her cats, never saw them again. The same when we moved to NYC. While my neighbors all had rotten issues I never saw one mouse or rat in my apartment the entire 8 years living there.

theshrike795• 6 years ago

Statistically, cats are really bad at catching mice. They might catch one, maybe kill it, maybe not. Maybe they'll just play with it and let it go.

Terriers on the other hand... https://youtu.be/l2Pyu-Cj0gg

TulliusCicero3• 6 years ago

Maybe them being around still scares the mice enough?

jyounker2• 6 years ago

The cat doesn't have to actually catch the mice and rats, as they are instinctively afraid of the smell of cat urine, even in small amounts.

qchris• 6 years ago

Vice Media did a video about the impact of the feral cat population on Australian wildlife, and the hunters/trappers that are working to cut down on their population[1]. Some of the imagery can be a little brutal if you're averse to that sort of thing, but I found it to be fairly interesting from a conservation methods perspective. It reminds me a little of the work being done in the American South on trying to keep down wild pig and python populations.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b93IBwJ_Yow

BostonFern5• 6 years ago

There are similar efforts to reduce wild dog populations in Australia, which Vice has also covered[1].

One thing that stuck with me after watching both videos is that Youtube posts a content warning on the video showing dogs being hunted, but not the feral cat equivalent.

From a conservation perspective, I'm skeptical that hunting dogs and cats with traps and rifles will have much of an impact on Australian wildlife.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mioD47T8-YM

m0zg• 6 years ago

Can confirm, my cat kills all the time. Birds, rabbits, frogs. If something moves in my backyard, it will eventually be killed. In the summer when doors are open she actually drags in dying, bleeding animals from time to time. And under prey drive she's a completely different animal, scary and aggressive AF.

vgivanovic• 6 years ago

The NPR headline is catchy but the underlying study is dogged by questions.

The cited study (https://doi.org/10.1111/acv.12563; sci-hub.tw has a copy) has some methodological flaws:

* The cat studied were were not randomly selected; they were chosen by "local volunteers". There may be confounding variables that explain part of the effect and so turn the observed effects from being statistically significant to not being statistically significant.

* The data on kills was self-reported, allowing bias to creep in.

* All the cats were English-speaking.

* Only 10 un-neutered pet cats were studied. I don't know if being neutered would increase, decrease, or have no effect on the kill rate, but the subject is not discussed.

I also question the conclusion that cats have a significant impact on local fauna.

* The average kill rate for a pet cat was (roughly) less than two animals per week, which doesn't seem very high. I'm left with the feeling that the authors had to resort to killings/area to make the results impressive.

* The authors did not report on the total size of the home ranges of cats compared to total area. So, for example, if the ratio was 1:1000, then so what? If the ratio was 1:20, then house cat might have a significant affect on local fauna.

Finally, I have a question about the presentation of the data: Figure 2b does not indicate that "75% of cats spent 90% of their time in disturbed habitats". The graph indicates that 500+ (out of 875 cats) spent between 95% and 100% of their time in developed habitats. Perhaps the y-axis is mislabeled, but even if it is, the graph does not match what the authors say.

House cats have more impact on local wildlife than wild predators

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