You Probably Should Be Wearing a Face Mask If You Can

https://kottke.org/20/03/you-probably-should-be-wearing-a-face-mask-if-you-can

by miles • 6 years ago

89 101 6 years ago

jandrese2• 6 years ago

At the same time you shouldn't be wearing one because they're a scarce resource and doctors/nurses/first responders need them more.

To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website.

[1] https://www.consumer.org.hk/ws_en/news/specials/2020/mask-di...

Edit: fixed a typo

little_dormouse• 6 years ago

You can easily make a mask at home.

see: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/czechs-get-to-...

jandrese2• 6 years ago

That says people are doing it because the government forced them to, not that it is easy or that they are doing it right. In fact the only tip seems to be to make it out of cotton so you can wash it.

Izkata• 6 years ago

I've been considering knitting my own mask(s), but haven't been able to find anything on whether it would actually work - like, would it be too porous to do anything? (Plan was 1-1 ribbing wide enough to not stretch, so the layers would kinda double-up on their own)

JadeNB• 6 years ago

Not to pick on a typo, but, since it can appear to change meaning: I'm pretty sure you mean that they're a scarce resource, not a scare resource.

miles• 6 years ago

To be fair the article does suggest making your own and then helpfully links to this [1] dead website.

It's been hugged to death.

Here is a cached copy:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oC-tOJ...

and here is a direct link to the embedded video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-29VBkGmw

Wowfunhappy4• 6 years ago

This. If you're wearing a mask, then there's a healthcare worker somewhere who you're preventing from wearing a mask. That healthcare worker is taking care of patients who definitely have the Cornavirus, and is getting up close to them while they're coughing. They need that mask more than you do.

And I don't mean this in an abstract way. There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now. If you have a mask, you should donate it. Stat.

rubidium2• 6 years ago

“ There are numerous places accepting mask donations right now.” Honestly asking where? I haven’t heard of that.

darkerside4• 6 years ago

Zero sum thinking here.

melling• 6 years ago

The ship is sinking and there aren’t enough lifeboats.

History doesn’t repeat itself but it often rhymes

erics32• 6 years ago

By all means donate your n95 and surgical masks, but many studies show that DIY masks are nearly as effective in stopping asymptomatic spread so the messaging should be around asking everyone to wear a (DIY) mask when they go out.

m4rtink4• 6 years ago

You are right in that medical professionals need proper equipment. At the same time it is very dangerous not to say that anyone else should have at least a home made mask when going out, to avoid possibly spreading the infection further if they are infected and do not know it yet.

btrettel• 6 years ago

Is it okay if I use masks that I bought years ago? (N95 in my case.) As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have.

rubidium2• 6 years ago

Yes. It’s ok for you to use the one you bought yesterday too. But first do what you can to help your neighbors and medical personal.

zepearl• 6 years ago

I'm wondering the same thing:

I bought in 2014 100 chirurgical masks => they're now expired (and I have ~15 left after giving all others to friends and colleagues after warning them about this) but from what I read the statements were that they can still be effective (not anymore 100% but at least more than 0%, which is more than not wearing anything).

m4rtink4• 6 years ago

As far as I'm aware there's no way a healthcare worker could get access to the masks I already have.

AFAIK locally (Czech Republic) hospitals have accepted donations of respirators and even hand made cloth masks. Maybe something similar is possible with hospitals in your are as well ?

BryantD2• 6 years ago

I am not saying that you should keep or donate them, but if you choose to donate them, the Seattle Mask Brigade Page includes a link to other groups organizing mass collection of unused but opened N95 masks.

I apologize if you’ve already explored this but I figure it could help others.

https://sites.google.com/view/seattle-mask-donations/

bagels• 6 years ago

Do you feel that if someone has an old construction mask in their garage from years ago that it is not ethical to wear it?

TylerE• 6 years ago

It may not be effective. Shelf life is usually rated at something like 5 years.

benjohnson2• 6 years ago

Of course it's ethical to wear it. If you have some to spare, then it may be ethical also to share with others.

We've been donating some of our N95 masks to the local hospital, but I'm not donating all of them. My family is important too.

As for age, I have noticed that the older ones had crumbly rubber foam and the straps are more delicate, but the melt-blown fabric itself seems perfectly fine. We've re-strapped some with new elastic and replaced the foam with closed-cell foam.

Lukman• 6 years ago

This is a wrong and dangerous message and it needs to be stopped. Both things are true: a) health workers need masks and b) people should wear masks when they go out.

There are no masks available to the public now. Realistically if you don't already have a mask your only option is to make one, which is not hard. Go to YouTube and find a video. A couple layers of cotton can work and is much better than nothing, at stopping your droplets from spreading if you sneeze or cough.

If you already have a mask wear it when you go out. No health care worker wants your mask. Wear goggles too.

And yes masks help prevent respiratory infection which is why health care workers wear them.

Stop with the "you shouldn't be wearing one" nonsense. It is false and dangerous.

Wowfunhappy4• 6 years ago

I live in New York City. I haven't left my building in weeks, but I can see people on the sidewalk outside of my window, and I see other residents of my building in the lobby when I go (briefly!) to pick up laundry and mail.

Many of them are wearing surgical masks. Not N95 masks, true, but not home-made masks either. I don't know where they're getting the masks, but clearly they have some.

Every time I see this, I honestly kind of want to scream at them.

If you want to wrap a piece of fabric around your nose and mouth, by all means, it certainly can't hurt. But if you have a supply of real masks somewhere, you should donate them.

starpilot2• 6 years ago

Hospitals are only accepting unopened masks. If yours is already opened, then wear it.

collinmanderson8• 6 years ago

Some hospital networks are even accepting homemade masks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/business/coronavirus-mask...

mc322• 6 years ago

Before we do this, we have to establish a culture of wearing masks during flu season so that there is always enough stock when people "must" wear masks for public health reasons. Right now may not be the best time to tell people they must because that siphons masks from the first responders.

lend000• 6 years ago

When better to establish that long term behavior when there is an immediate, credible threat? Even if it does slightly increase pressure on the medical mask supply (who will be prioritized with the certified masks, regardless), how many lives will this save in the next pandemic? Or every flu season, for that matter. It seems unrealistic to think Americans will start wearing masks everywhere after this has all blown over if they were not previously conditioned to do so.

toast0• 6 years ago

A better time to establish a mask wearing trend would be a time where masks were readily available, and stores were easily accessed. Let's plan to stock up for this fall.

lucisferre• 6 years ago

The article specifically states not to buy/wear N95 masks for that reason and because most people don't know how to wear them properly.

bamboozled• 6 years ago

They could learn how to right ?

karthikb• 6 years ago

Apparently, given the recent education push, most people didn’t know how to wash their hands properly either. The answer isn’t to give up, it’s to educate.

collinmanderson8• 6 years ago

As the article says, "Don’t buy masks (or use new masks you might have at home) while there is a shortage for healthcare workers, especially not N95 respirators (which are difficult to use properly anyway). Make a mask at home. Skiers & snowboarders, wear your buffs or ski masks. Donate any unused masks or respirators you may have to healthcare workers."

darkerside4• 6 years ago

If a mask can prevent one person from infecting others, it can prevent 16 people from being infected over the next two weeks, if you assume doubling every 3 days.

mc322• 6 years ago

Given there is a shortage and we can’t all have masks, who would you prefer have them, people on the front lines who see the infirm and immunocompromised or joe and jill schmoe who’re supposed to be staying home?

jacob019• 6 years ago

KN95 masks are available from China. Those are an excellent choice for the general population and do not affect the supply of N95 masks to medical personnel. More people need to step and and distribute.

pstrateman2• 6 years ago

Are they though?

ardit33• 6 years ago

Like the defective ones that were returned back by Holland? https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-netherlands-recalls-defect...

castratikron• 6 years ago

Well obviously not those

azurezyq• 6 years ago

Conterfeit and defective items are very general problems throughout all industries. Standard is standard. Importer should do the due diligence to test it and ask for certificates.

I just don't see anything wrong with the standard itself.

bgee6• 6 years ago

tl;dr: This is misinfoformation; Netherlands tests masks against the wrong specification and blamed on China.

KN95 marks that are bought by the Dutch government are not resistant to oily particles (the N stands for Not resistant to oil)[0]; while the European FFP2 standard specifies the mask has to be able to block oil particles [1].

[0] http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/433598O/european-standard...

[1] “Last Saturday, the first shipment from a Chinese manufacturer was delivered in part. These are masks with a KN95 quality certificate.”: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne...

Disclaimer: I'm a China national.

ikeboy• 6 years ago

The CDC is recommending KN95 for healthcare workers and I know firsthand of multiple people selling them to hospitals. (I'm bringing some in myself to resell, am very familiar with the market.)

jacquesm2• 6 years ago

A friend of mine is setting up a manufacturing line for masks here in NL. They're sourcing raw materials from abroad, where masks are interdicted but materials are not, and then go on to make the actual masks locally. Super interesting project and I'm proud of him for getting off his butt and making an actual difference here.

hirundo• 6 years ago

interdicted?

jacquesm2• 6 years ago

Ah yes, sorry, will fix. Thank you.

ProAm• 6 years ago

Lets go ahead and save the mask supply for medical personnel.

Also this blog is Monday morning arm chair medical advice from a blogger, a respectable blogger, but a blogger nonetheless.

angry_octet2• 6 years ago

Exactly, it has no more weight than water cooler talk. In a number of aspects it exhibits wishful thinking that is counter-factual, especially in regard to home-made masks.

jcroll• 6 years ago

Link for making a mask is broken. Anyone have a good link how to make your own?

zozbot234• 6 years ago

And if you can't wear a mask for some reason, you should still be covering your face with something. Even a bandana is a lot better than wearing nothing at all.

scythe• 6 years ago

You should probably consider covering your mouth and nose because:

- you don't know if you're infected

- if you are infected, even a terrible mask like a handkerchief reduces the risk that you'll spread to someone else

You should probably not try to obtain and wear a medical-grade mask if those are in short supply in your region.

Source: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762694

There are 2 main types of masks used to prevent respiratory infection: surgical masks, sometimes referred to as face masks, and respirators. These masks differ by the type and size of infectious particles they are able to filter. Face masks are used more commonly for respiratory viruses that spread via droplets, which travel short distances and are transmitted by cough or sneeze. Face masks often fit loosely, and prevent the wearer from spreading large sprays and droplets, as well as preventing hand-to-face contact. N95 respirators block 95% of airborne particles. They are tight fitting and prevent inhalation of smaller infectious particles that can spread through the air over long distances after an infected person coughs or sneezes

The difference right now is that everyone might be carrying a lethal pathogen that we have no treatments for.

wnissen• 6 years ago

As it notes in the article, wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more. Though at the moment there has not been a single documented case of "smear" (person to object to person) transmission. And there was a 2.5 hour choir rehearsal with minimal touching that caused 75% of the attendees to become infected. So I have an old N100 respirator from wildfires a couple years ago that I am wearing when out.

One of the interesting side effects is that you can smell the ambient ozone when you take it off, since the respirator has been removing it. Don't be fooled, a typical suburban area reeks of ozone, but it's not perceptible because your nose ignores it as background.

entee2• 6 years ago

It’s misleading to say there’s no evidence of smear transmission. Take that choral rehearsal you mention. Could have been that they breathed in droplets, also could have been that a droplet found their way to a shirt, the person touched their shirt, touched their face, bingo. The virus is known to survive on surfaces for several hours. In close, confined quarters the answer to smear vs droplet is likely “yes”.

Masks are most useful in stopping droplets from people who are actively shedding virus. This is probably the key driver for why in some mask wearing societies transmission is far lower.

Masks are clearly helpful in confined spaces and in the immediate radius of someone who coughed a few seconds ago. These conditions are what medical personnel face daily, hence they wear masks. Similarly people like Uber drivers or grocery clerks likely would benefit if well fitted and they don’t touch their face more.

Masks are maybe useful when around those who aren’t coughing (you make droplets when you breathe or talk) but generally that social distancing 6ft should cover that. Still, if you don’t touch your face more, it doesn’t hurt and might help a little.

Masks aren’t doing a whole lot walking around the street. As you and the article note if a mask makes you touch your face more, it could even be harmful.

In almost all of these cases, social distancing and hand washing is likely far more effective than masks. “Are masks useful?” is a complicated question, but as the article suggests, it’s probably, “a little, wash your hands, keep distant, that helps much more.”

cameldrv• 6 years ago

I've never seen a study that says "wearing a mask can be bad if it causes you to touch your face more." I've seen loads of studies that say that masks work to substantially prevent transmission of viruses, including SARS, the closest cousin to the current threat.

At this point, articles that say that masks increase COVID transmission that do not cite legitimate scientific studies should be considered disinformation, and their authors should be considered potential threats to public health and shunned and/or ignored. We are dealing with a virus that does not respect lofty rhetoric and does not negotiate. It can only be defeated through clear thinking and science.

savanaly• 6 years ago

Don't see it linked in this thread yet, but it's worth noting Slate Star Codex looked at the literature and decided on a weak "yes" [0], assuming your use of a face mask isn't depriving a medical worker of one.

[0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t...

huangc10• 6 years ago

I think the path forward is clear (if there was enough supplies to go around): 1) Stay at home or 2) wear a face mask. If there was enough supply, I don't think we should argue with this. It's for everyone's safety. So let's ramp up supply and do either 1) or 2)

bravura• 6 years ago

Here is a writeup on the topic that I prefer, from my friend Matt Bell who has been a constant stream of COVID-19 insight on his facebook wall: https://medium.com/@llebttam_45762/masks-work-wear-them-b450...

It includes a variety of evidence for masks, including for impromptu masks and their quality.

Some key points from my linked article:

* You should (like many doctors and care staff) re-use your good quality masks, and the article explains how. (e.g. put it in a breathable bag, like paper, date it, and wait four days)

* If you have a good mask, like an N95, wear a lower quality mask over it, to preserve re-use of the good quality mask.

* For good fit, the mask should not touch the lips.

seltzered_• 6 years ago

Prior (flagged) discussion on a similar topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216

fasteddie31003• 6 years ago

Yes. I have been promoting this message nonstop for the past few days. I created https://www.maskssavelives.org/ to help promote the benefits of mask-wearing in reducing COVID-19' virality.

starpilot2• 6 years ago

That's painful to read, it does not address the blatant lack of causality demonstrated in the FT chart with masks / no mask regions. You can't make that claim at all. If masks were that effective, SK and other countries wouldn't have engaged in their massive testing, quarantining programs at all.

collinmanderson8• 6 years ago

It probably wasn't masks alone, but why not throw everything we have at the problem?

Ancalagon• 6 years ago

Question: is there a recommended way to clean a cotton mask or mask of other material? Does running it through the wash risk contaminating other clothes? Should I instead spray it down with alcohol or wet-and-zap it in the microwave for 30 sec, similar to sponge disinfecting?

SiNTEx2• 6 years ago

Washing it in boiling water for 5 minutes should be enough but you should do it at least every day. This is what our government advise us here in Czech.

crispinb2• 6 years ago

On the DIY mask issue: I've tried making a couple, based on online instructions. It's very obvious in use that without literally taping the filter material to my face, the airflow goes around the edges.

Anyone who's done any rural polypipe plumbing knows how hard it is to control water flow. Air is harder. None of the DY mask designs I've tried are worth a pinch of the proverbial.

Anyone here know of any better designs? I'm not fussed myself (live in the sticks, very easy to avoid people), but I'd like to make something useful for my elderly mother.

m4rtink4• 6 years ago

If you have a 3D printer or know someone with one, there are a couple designs that can be 3D printed or the 3D printed parts can be combined with commonly available materials:

https://www.prusa3d.com/covid19/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tjmccue/2020/03/24/calling-all-...

https://onezero.medium.com/people-around-the-world-are-3d-pr...

https://www.dezeen.com/2020/03/29/creality-3d-printed-buckle...

https://3dprintingcenter.net/2020/03/19/scientists-from-the-...

https://rp95.cz/en/

crispinb2• 6 years ago

Thank you - I'll check them out.

(Ironically, the only friend I have with a 3d printer is over the nearby NSW/QLD border that has been closed due to the pandemic crisis. Not an insuperable problem however).

petilon• 6 years ago

We are thinking about masks wrong. You want every one else to wear a mask because they might have the virus, and if they do, the mask will stop droplets and aerosols from entering the air you breath and landing on surfaces that you may touch.

And of course, you should wear a mask too -- to protect others.

Had we all worn masks right when this started (simple cloth masks would do) this virus would not have spread so much and so easily.

benjohnson2• 6 years ago

The filtering also works in the other direction - when a healthy person wears one and inhales air with contaminated droplets in it.

SiNTEx2• 6 years ago

Wearing a face mask is compulsory here in Czech Republic for a third week now and you can even get fined for not doing so. According to our government this is one of the most important measures introduced to slow down the spread of the virus. Our PM is even trying to convince other EU governments to do the same. People are advised not to touch their face and clean their mask by washing it in boiling water every day. It’s not too complicated and hopefully will be effective.

xkapastel• 6 years ago

Masks do protect the wearer! And you do not need an N95 mask to do this. Even a simple homemade mask offers some degree of protection. This[0] was a good explanation of both of these ideas.

tldr: There is reason to believe that large droplets, not the tiny droplets that N95s are designed to filter, are the primary threat, and any sort of physical barrier between those and your mouth/nose will help.

I see a lot of people saying that we shouldn't wear masks in order to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, but I think this is ridiculous. You need a mask when you go out both to protect yourself and to protect others. A better message is, to preserve the supply for healthcare workers, make your own mask, or use a simple dust mask or a rave mask.

[0] https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid-19-why-we-should-all...

entee2• 6 years ago

Very few viruses are true aerosol transmitted (measles is), it’s likely COVID is droplet based so coarse masks will help. Even with an N95, true aerosols can make it through, though obviously not 100% transmission (95 means block 95% of 0.3 micron particles, individual viruses are a factor of 2-3 smaller usually).

You Probably Should Be Wearing a Face Mask If You Can

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