Is anyone working on something that is not a website?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21107

by palish • 19 years ago

22 64 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

palish2• 19 years ago

Web is certainly where the money can be at. But everyone probably realizes that there are plenty of other things you can do and still create a startup. The advice in Paul Graham's essays and YCombinator's library holds just as true if you're not working on a webpage startup.

For example, I read about someone who created a startup selling knife sheaths on EBay. Even if he were to create a website advertising his knife sheaths, he still wouldn't really have a webpage startup.

So, is anyone working on a non-webpage startup, and if so, what're you doing? :)

Shawn

far33d5• 19 years ago

I'm fascinated by businesses that still deal in physical goods or services, but are enabled because of the web. The two best examples being netflix and city carshare-type businesses.

danw4• 19 years ago

Don't forget threadless and moo as two other great examples of using the web to rework real world products.

far33d5• 19 years ago

Great examples. I think the most successful web businesses will be those that enhance one's "real" life.

altay2• 19 years ago

oh, i totally agree, far33d... those make for the coolest companies. anyone know anything about sensor networks? lately i've been thinking that a sensor network plus an accompanying web app could be useful in lots of domains.

for example, here's an idea that's been kicking around in my head. (i'm not the right guy to start this company, so i'll just throw out this there.)

you know how people at the gym often track their workouts -- "3 sets, 10 reps, 150 lbs" -- with pencil and paper? that's so 20th century. why not build a sensor network for exercise equipment? you get on a scale or weight/cardio machine. it knows who you are -- RFID in your membership card? -- and it wirelessly uploads your workout data from that machine to a server.

as a gym member, you get a login to an accompanying web app, which is automagically populated with your data. you can set goals, track your workouts + results with pretty graphs, etc. no more paper+pencil tracking -- just work out and log in.

sell this sensor/software platform to gyms (or perhaps the equipment manufacturers), and you've got yourself a business.

where does the internet come in? well, aside from the tracking app for individuals, with all this aggregate data, you'd revolutionize exercise science. is interval training really better than marathon cardio sessions? more weight+fewer reps, or less weight+more reps? even basic collaborative filtering would be cool: "people with bodies like yours got these results with this workout plan."

it'd disrupt the (absurdly lucrative) personal training industry.

point is, out there in the "real world," there's tons of data that's just waiting to be aggregated and analyzed. that'll certainly be the basis of many interesting companies.

shadtchnev• 19 years ago

I've just returned from the gym with such a system installed :) Well, not exactly. I have to enter my five-digit number at each machine, so that it knew who is exercising but apart from that it does almost everything you described. http://www.fitlinxx.com/brand.htm

boris2• 19 years ago

There are plenty of startups that make cool software. Trolltech, Sleepycat (now Oracle), VMWare, Coverity are just a few that come to mind. I think the main difference between software startups compared to web startups is that there is a lot more depth to them. I don't think an average kid out of college is capable of something like this.

I am working on software development tools: http://www.codesynthesis.com

nostrademons4• 19 years ago

"I don't think an average kid out of college is capable of something like this."

I've done both desktop/server software and web software, and IMHO good web software is harder. With web software, you have to explicitly think about many things that just aren't an issue with conventional software, like how to distribute the load of a million users over dozens of boxes. It helps that user expectations for UI responsiveness and robustness are somewhat lower with webapps, but that's changing with AJAX. You also need to know many more technologies to build a successful webapp: CSS, HTML, Javascript, a web scripting language, SQL, database performance, server administration & shell scripts, and any libraries necessary for your problem domain.

It is a completely different skillset. With conventional apps, you need to know how to architect a large single app instead of architecting a large collection of collaborating servers. You need to know C++, Java, or C# instead of PHP/Python/Ruby. You need to know intimately the particular toolset that your app fits into - VMWare can't live without device drivers; Sleepycat can't live without transaction algorithms; one desktop app I worked on needed an intimate knowledge of TCP, including Winsock LSPs and Linux kernel hacking. You get much more out of deep knowledge with conventional apps, while webapps require a more shallow understanding of a very broad range of topics.

Also, the technologies you need for desktop apps don't have zillions of articles on them plastered across the web, and the documentation is often poor quality. But if you take a professional software engineering job, you'll be expected to make sense of it and figure out how everything works (possibly through prototypes, debuggers, and a lot of pain and patience). It's not taught in college, but that doesn't make it particularly difficult.

boris2• 19 years ago

"I've done both desktop/server software and web software, and IMHO good web software is harder."

I am not saying web development is necessarily easier. I don't have any problem believing Javascript or AJAX is a lot of pain to get working consistently across various browsers. What I am saying is that serious software (i.e., the kind that people are willing to pay for) requires deeper knowledge and practical experience to get right.

tx• 19 years ago

"I've done both desktop/server software and web software, and IMHO good web software is harder."

I can only ask what kind of software have you developed, sir?

If web software was harder, you wouldn't see "products" created over a weekend shaping up into companies a week later. And don't get me started on "millions of users on dozen boxes".

The primitiveness of web application development is mainly the reason why so many "ex-taxi drivers" and are rolling out web apps daily.

Two huge reasons why web app development is so trivial are: - You control your hardware. This is really important. - You do not need to develop UI. Web Pages are joke compared to the "real thing".

For starters, try to develop an super-simple desktop application that uploads an arbitrary file to a given FTP address, let 100,000 users (let alone millions) download it to discover: - It won't start - It won't connect - It crashes their computer. - "Where did it go?" question after downloading.

You'll be amazed. You will realize that PCs of most people are just like jungle, populated with adware, multiple software firewalls running simultaneously, paranoid anti-virus packages, missing DLLs and weird security settings. Moreover, users will be brutal: they'll be turning power off in the middle of your disk writes, they will upgrade libraries you linked to without asking you first, they will install your executable on desktop and will be killing files you create, the list goes on.

Over 80% of developing desktop software consists of two things: - Fighting unexpected problems in a hostile environment of user's PC - Dealing with real, LIVE UI that is reflecting real-time changing objects, and is pleasant to use.

On top of that you're trying to do this using minimal amount of libraries, because you can't expect people to download 100MB installer.

JustAGuy• 19 years ago

I'm not really sure why you think that web development is the only form of software development that writes distributed software. This seems like a bogus assumption.

I've worked on two large projects that are distributed and not web based.

far33d5• 19 years ago

VMware is not even close to a startup anymore (EMC acquired, 1000's of employees, soon to IPO 10% of shares)

enorlin• 19 years ago

www.defragcon.com

a startup that's not a website

especkman• 19 years ago

I have plans for two projects dealing in physical goods. For one, I'll probably use cafepress for production & fulfillment until volume justifies reshuffling my supply chain.

For another, I'm going to advertise a blog we already have that has a small but growing audience. We'll have a small inventory with a limited number of skus. We'll probably make the items ourselves. I'm not sure how I'll handle the commerce (ebay, yahoo store, paypay...). We'll do fulfillment ourselves too. Once we establish a microbrand I have what I think is a clever bundling idea to increase our average transaction size by about 2-5 fold without needing to bloat our inventory. At that point, I'm not sure exactly what's next, we might try it on a small scale, continuing doing our own manufacturing, or we might line up offshore manufacturing and outsourced fulfillment and make a big push. I think we'll probably do a blend of the two. Start rolling out the evolved business model while still making the items ourselves at the same time we're lining up manufacturing and fulfillment with the goal for having them on-line in time for the holiday shopping season.

I also have ideas for web apps, but I'm cautious about both ad revenue and hoping to be bought out. I do have an idea for a service that would be monetized by transaction based revenue, but I have quite figured out how to put it into practice.

uuilly• 19 years ago

We just got an angel round for a destop sw startup. It is a visualization tool that is OpenGL heavy and I'm not sure how I'd deliver that over the interwebs.

www.uuorld.com

We're using trolltech's Qt and releasing on Win32, OS X, and Linux. If anyone knows of any mature packages for interactive 3d over the web, I'm all ears.

blats2• 19 years ago

Torque, Torque Advance, and now apparently Torque X. http://www.garagegames.com

"Mature packages for interactive 3D over the web"

They are general purpose game building frameworks. I am currently working with it in MMO form, all implementation code in Python. It is a mature package for interactive 3D over the web if I ever saw one.

Hmm.. there may be something to that.... hey thanks! :)

blats2• 19 years ago

Ok, so I use the term "web" loosely there.. but things like Yahoo widgets are blurring the line between desktop and web so I am taking some liberty.

gyro_robo2• 19 years ago

A plug-in can access whatever libraries you want.

davidw• 19 years ago

There are some food items that I would love to import/produce in the US, from Italy. I'll see about it when/if we ever move back to the states. Food has a lot of legal requirements, and more capital to start something up. On the other hand, it's the thing I'm most certain of in terms of I know people would like this stuff.

startupper• 19 years ago

Yes, we are working on a wireless startup -- not an application but infrastructure. This includes hw, sw and fw. soldering irons, oscilloscopes, etc. ;)

jsackmann• 19 years ago

first post, perhaps the first time I actually have something to contribute :).

There are two startup-ish things I do that are not websites, but are largely disseminated via the web:

a) my main job is represented at gmatdaily.wordpress.com. I sell study materials for the GMAT ...I worked in the industry for a few years, discovered a multitude of problems, and am slowly solving them all.

b) i collect, package, analyze, and sell college baseball statistics to major league teams ... my partner and I had a website for this (collegesplits.com) where we gave away a lot of the data for free, but eventually took it down because the maintenance wasn't worth it. My web presence in the field made it easy to line up customers, and I suppose I could set up a members-only site to deliver the data (and thus the business would be a website), but that's not what the clients want.

Now, perhaps one of these days I'll work on something that IS a website :).

fauigerzigerk• 19 years ago

I cannot tell you in very concrete terms what we're doing (it has to do with data integration), but I can tell you the reason why we will probably NOT do it as a web app. It's not the UI capabilities, it's the data hub problem and economics.

Anything you do on the web has to funnel every piece of data through that web app because browsers cannot access anything other than their originating server (They might soon be able to do that via Flex/Silverlight type plugins). Even if they could, it just doesn't make sense for many data centric interactive applications to buy a lot of servers when a huge number of powerful PC clients does almost nothing.

I reckon, if I have some algorithmic data analysis stuff and I can distribute that to client machines to some degree, I can make my service cheaper and maybe even architecturally simpler in some cases, because there is a natural partitioning scheme. Ok, now I see this argument becomes quite obscure without going into further detail so I'll leave it at that.

SwellJoe2• 19 years ago

Our product is not a website, but it is web-based (it is installable web-based system administration tools). I dunno if that qualifies by your definition.

So we have all of the pain of developing a web-based application (browser incompatibilities, limitations of the medium, etc.) with all of the negatives of installed applications (high barrier to adoption, lower volume, etc.). But it does give us a business model that everyone can easily understand: Give us money, we give you software, you install it, we support you. Next year, you give us money again and we keep supporting you.

Web applications are the most fun to build, but there's an awful lot of room for technology in non-web spaces. Large retailers a huge users of technology (and their websites are generally not even a blip on the radar, as far as technology expenditures go--I was involved briefly in a $2.7 million content distribution deployment for Lowe's...I'm certain they haven't spent more than a tenth that much on their website).

Lots of areas for high tech to make a huge impact on peoples lives (and thus make a huge impact on your bottom line): Medical records and billing, legal services, banking, accounting, warehouse automation, etc. There are businesses working in all of these spaces already, of course, but there's still plenty of niches left unfilled.

jason13• 19 years ago

If your making your clients install software, why not just make your clients install a specific broswer ?

SwellJoe2• 19 years ago

Hehehe...Good one. That's hilarious. ;-)

Seriously: Because we don't want to be evil. We're willing to not have rounded corners in some browsers, or have menus that don't get animation, or whatever...but we're not willing to prevent anyone (even folks who are blind or otherwise have accessibility problems) from using our product.

rokhayakebe• 19 years ago

2 side projects for fun.

1. Mobile search. No website. If we did it would be a one static page site.

2. Image recognition. Also no interaction with a website. As far as goods, I would stay away from it. Logistics r pain in the butt.

kilowatt• 19 years ago

I'm in a small startup developing a cross-platform desktop IM client. In Python. It's going to kick the pants off of Adium, Pidgin, and especially Trillian ;)

sbraford• 19 years ago

How will you monetize it?

hello_moto• 19 years ago

ads in specific windows? what else?

vikram• 19 years ago

Could try selling virtual goods.

rms• 19 years ago

Biotech 2.0. Which of course involves a website and a physical product/service.

samb• 19 years ago

chartcapture.com

falsestprophet• 19 years ago

In addition to some web applications, I am slowly developing several products in the chemical sector. (I am a chemical engineer by training). But, the barriers to entry are so high and the risks are so great (often including literal physical danger) that software is decisively more attractive.

jgamman• 19 years ago

hi, me too (chemist), working on some ideas in the energy field. i'm always jealous of web designers who can buy a $500 laptop, download a pile of open source software and start producing. i've got to raise at least two more zeros before i can actually do anything... ;-)

yubrew• 19 years ago

I know what you mean (biomedical engineering). In health care, it's standard practice to have at least 100x price mark ups, but a fair amount of barriers.

After talking to a couple people in biotech start ups, it seems pointless to pursue something unless I am a cofounder. The marriage of science and business is often not pretty.

juwo• 19 years ago

yes

codeslinger• 19 years ago

Yes.

mkanemoto• 19 years ago

I am working on WiMax, the next generation wireless network.

nickb2• 19 years ago

http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/InfectiousGreed/~3/115642924/intel_ceo_summi_1.html

nicomarchesotti• 19 years ago

Is my first post. Yes at the moment I am working on 2 different business plans. One has to do with recycling ink cartridges. I have found by the research I have done that there is quite an interesting and virgin market for that here in Spain. The second is a company which has been working for 2 years but I am remodeling the system of production. This one is about Selling school planners.

greendestiny• 19 years ago

Yeah I make orthodontic software and just finished a prototype 3d scanner (structured light style thing for those in the know). That sort of my day job, although I own a 1/3 of the business. I really want to do some web2.0 ideas I've got on the side - which is really the main reason I come to news.yc

ynniv• 19 years ago

OpenGL + Python + Cached Streaming Data

web - handhend - desktop - web

jobs@churchillnavigation.com

musiciangames• 19 years ago

My product is a game that teaches piano, but the delivery and monetisation are currently via the web.

http://www.free-music-games.net/valkyrie-invaders.html

aquarin• 19 years ago

I do work on rating algorithm and forecasting algorithm that I intend to implement as some sort of service or library. There will be website but just for advertising purposes.

chmike• 19 years ago

yes. A middleware communication protocol and its infrastructure. It is a new communication tool with, of course, added value compared to existing solutions. new tools = better ways = new applications = new opportunities.

Protocol is named DITP (distributed information transfer protocol) and uses IDR (information data representation) as encoding rule (it's binary). The infrastructure is named DIS (distributed information system).

Some usable code will be out in a few weeks. The system is original in many ways and the curently forseen business model might be too. Coming out will be announced on Y Combinator news.

rnc000• 19 years ago

Yes, me: http://server.imgseek.net/

Looking for ways to license visual search technology.

jeffrese• 19 years ago

I'm making replica '57 Chevy's http://www.fresemotorcars.com/

Leonidas• 19 years ago

I'm helping my dad design a replacement for the Digital Signal Processor. Actually, it's already designed and it actually works through the Phase I testing. Talk about years of painfully drawing up electric engineering diagrams and deciphering electric engineering language to a way that you would understand it to draw the diagram and write the description out. It's like having a crash course on 4 years of EE education in a week. (I'm not an EE major). Not to mention making suggestions upon the improvement of the design and have your dad say "no it won't work" only to find out days later that your proposal actually works but your dad is just too proud to admit it. I think the closest he got to an offer was from Nokia but he chickened out and didn't pursue it. Sucks for him and especially for me who spent days finding a personal contact information to someone at Nokia.

Too bad, he's one of those guys who just likes to invents to see if it works. Not much of a 'start a company' guy...I think he just wants to sit back and enjoy the rest of his life as opposed to dealing with the politics of a company. 9 years on working on something and the fear of someone stealing your idea keeps you from sharing it to the world. It's a shame but oh well. It's his 'baby'

I have my own 'baby' project to work on.

smackaysmith• 19 years ago

Raising chickens and runner ducks.

litepost• 19 years ago

I'm making computers and software for babies.

gyro_robo2• 19 years ago

MMORPG.

Is anyone working on something that is not a website?

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