A Chinese social credit song

https://www.whatsonweibo.com/be-as-good-as-your-word-the-chinese-social-credit-song-is-here/

by Anon84 • 7 years ago

95 106 7 years ago

jhare• 7 years ago

I believe this is all my true nightmares, come to life, expressed in one place.

umvi• 7 years ago

And yet, gun crime is non existent, suicide is much lower than the US, etc. China is actually by all measures a much better place to live than the US. The freedoms in the US just lead to death and suffering and political divisions and unhappiness. In China people are unified.

yathern• 7 years ago

China is actually by all measures a much better place to live than the US

I think you need a source on that one. Gun crime is obviously worse in the US - and an ongoing problem - but it's not a huge impact on quality of life for most people.

In suicide, China measures middle of the pack - certainly ahead of the US - but many Western countries do better.

In terms of "happiness" - China ranks quite low on the World Happiness Index:

https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2018/

diydsp3• 7 years ago

US is very strange at the moment... better comparisons might be to Europe, Central and South America, who generally enjoy incredible freedom, political discourse, quality of health, education and life.

dfee• 7 years ago

So long as you fit the mold: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china...

seanmcdirmid7• 7 years ago

Car accident rates are higher in China, you are also more likely to die because of pollution. People are not very unified, which is why the government focuses more on internal security than external security. The PLA has killed way more Chinese in the last 30 years than foreign combatants.

carapace2• 7 years ago

We're pretty fucked up over here in the West, but I can say "We're pretty fucked up over here in the West" and no one is going to put me in prison for it, eh?

supertiger• 7 years ago

public safety - China has a clear win. Thanks to the surveillance level and strict gun/drug control, you can walk on the street of any part of any city without having to worry about your safety. I cannot say the same most of the major cities in the US.

However, air pollution, food safety, extremely high competition and fast-pace together make China a quite unattractive place to live and work.

Hitton• 7 years ago

In China, if you are not one of the unified mass you have good chance of ending up in reeducation center, work camp or at worst executed and yours organs are sold. Thanks, but I prefer the west.

schainks• 7 years ago

China is actually by all measures a much better place to live than the US.

I think that's an overgeneralization. There are many things that do "work better" or "improve faster". Mass transit and metropolitan cleanliness are good examples of this (with exceptions, of course).

However, the lack of a strong regulatory body for things like food quality and water quality still make it a much riskier place to live IMO.

That's not to say China won't, for example, achieve a one billion+ person version of Singapore in our lifetimes, but I still have a "wait and see" attitude towards this.

Note: I have lived in China and travelled nearly 6K miles by mass transit to all kinds of places there.

TurkishPoptart• 7 years ago

This is pretty obvious 50 Cent Party crap. America's fucked up, but ya'll are leaps and bounds more fucked up.

52-6F-622• 7 years ago

Who shrink-wraps pairs of apples and oranges on a piece of styrofoam? That struck me as particularly bizarre. Is this normal in other parts of the world?

edit: I know this is totally tangential... it just struck me as a faux-futuristic trope and not pragmatic at all. Hence: bizarre

Leary• 7 years ago

I've seen those for 30 years, it's not futuristic at all.

gapo• 7 years ago

Definition of dystopia

diydsp3• 7 years ago

the body language is unnverving. the insincere tics in the faces of the young women, the stilted swinging of the shoulders, the weak fist-squeezing of the young men with the awkward eye-popping. The deer in headlights postures...

it all just reeks of coercion and young people trying to please but afraid and uncomfortable. Perhaps it's just a bad video director. Maybe the video director is trying to communicate their own discomfort. Maybe the producers see it all and delight in how much power they have... This video is evidence of their grip.

srbby• 7 years ago

I think they are simply bad actors.

iamnotacrook2• 7 years ago

Exactly. You look at this, remember that it'll be making its way around the world (slowly at first, admittedly) and it's impossible to ignore the little internal voice where your conscience used to be whispering "kill yourself".

FooBarWidget3• 7 years ago

I really don’t think the Chinese are interested in exporting their governance system.

amelius• 7 years ago

An outsider could perhaps look at capitalism in the same way.

jblow• 7 years ago

China is capitalist.

narrator• 7 years ago

I kind of wish our pop culture was this bad. People would go outside more.

One of the things that I find amusing about Chinese people I meet and talk with who are traveling outside of China is that they are not obsessed with pop music, celebrities or sports, or at least far less than we are in the west.

As an example, I met a fashionable young Chinese lady with an apparently large income who was traveling the world. You know what she did for fun? She played the piano, did tourist stuff and went out for dinner with friends.

lormayna• 7 years ago

They are, instead, obsessed by money.

cm2012• 7 years ago

Most people in China grew up extremely poor, so this makes sense.

coldtea2• 7 years ago

Compared to what, Americans, who are all about net worth, work, business success, making it big, personal branding, and so on?

eof• 7 years ago

People outside the west would say the same of the westerners they see traveling.

It’s pop literally because it’s popular. The people who have the freedom and interest to travel the world are not “typical” citizens in any country.

distances• 7 years ago

The people who have the freedom and interest to travel the world are not “typical” citizens in any country.

That didn't sound right as in my experience most people do a foreign trip at least once a year. Turns out it of course very much depends on the country: Finland travels the most while US is among the least foreign-travelling westerners. That according to https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-whose-citizens..., which says every Finn does 1.7 foreign trips per year on average.

Sorry for the spammy site but hard to look for hard source data on mobile.

seanmcdirmid7• 7 years ago

This really isn’t true. Chinese have songs, they have popular music groups, many like K pop or K dramas, many like costume dramas or going for a night out to sing karaoke. Soccer is really popular, basketball is too for some strange reason. Heck, just say you are American in Beijing and taxi drivers will most definitely ask you about the NBA (if you can speak Chinese).

There is a lot of selection bias in generalizing about a culture via its world travelers :).

The state really sucks at propaganda though, so it shouldn’t be surprising that efforts like this are filled with lots of cringe. It definitely shouldn’t be considered pop culture.

learc83• 7 years ago

basketball

Basketball was introduced to China by missionaries in 1895, so it's been there almost as long as it has in the US.

sandworm101• 7 years ago

Except when the state propaganda is popular, is the pop. All those songs about putin are actually popular in some parts of russia.

tanr54ok• 7 years ago

As an example, I met a fashionable young Chinese lady with an apparently large income who was traveling the world

Change Chinese to American, or Ethiopian in that part of your comment. This is selection bias pretty hard.

hombre_fatal• 7 years ago

Yeah, I'm blown away that this was their evidence, especially for such a strong claim.

Expats/emigrants/travelers are basically the group least able to generalize over their countrymen back home.

delfinom• 7 years ago

No, your example is rich people gonna rich people. The average person in the US or China can't afford to travel the world, go out every day with friends, etc.

Timpy• 7 years ago

That's a self selecting group though. All of the Americans I met while travelling and living outside of America seemed disinterested in pop culture too. It's not the "Chinese" part of your observation that's relevant.

sushid• 7 years ago

A fashionable young Chinese lady traveling in the US is not your average Chinese person.

They’re clearly upper to upper middle class and they’re clearly going to enjoy different “hobbies” abroad.

utf985• 7 years ago

Might be just me, but parts of this song sound awfully similar to "Welcome to the Black Parade" by My Chemical Romance.

__sy__2• 7 years ago

Wouldn't be the first time... https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2010/04/19/national/world-...

yorwba4• 7 years ago

Presumably most people who're going to watch the music video are already aware that fraud is illegal etc. and if they don't act as virtuous as the role models presented to them, it's because they feel the alternative is worse.

So it would be interesting to find out whether the PR campaign actually changes anyone's behavior.

human20190310• 7 years ago

So it would be interesting to find out whether the PR campaign actually changes anyone's behavior.

That's begging the question as to whether the behavior needs changing.

Is there a pervasive trust/integrity problem in China?

yorwba4• 7 years ago

I don't know about "pervasive", but there are definitely some people trying to make a quick buck at the expense of others. I know someone involved with an MLM scam selling "fuel saving cards" that are supposed to quantum-mechanically reduce fuel consumption by sticking them to your gas tank.

FooBarWidget3• 7 years ago

Yes there is. People are worried about scams all the time, much more often than in the west.

seanmcdirmid7• 7 years ago

Scams are very common in China. If you ever decide to visit, do a favor for yourself and brush up on the latest ones so you have a good trip.

the_resistence2• 7 years ago

It's horrible...

stOneskull• 7 years ago

media turning the whole public robotic

binarymax• 7 years ago

Criticizing the production quality of this video is just a cheap shot. Imagine if DHS or ICE got together to produce a music video. It would be absolutely terrible.

dsfyu404ed• 7 years ago

A major defense contractor who shall remain nameless put together an internal training music video called Let's Talk About FOD (foreign object damage) to the tune of Let's Talk About Sex. It was sung by a C-level exec. There were guys in clean room suits dancing (IIRC one of them even spun on his/her head). It was filmed on site in actual production facilities. The production value easily surpassed "peak-ISIS" and rivaled that of professional music videos.

Being a lumbering bureaucracy doesn't mean you can't make a good music video. You just gotta have the skills to pull it off. Any government agency that takes propaganda (aka marketing) seriously should have the requisite skills in house.

durpleDrank• 7 years ago

Devils advocate here, is it safe to say that capitalism is a type of credit system that allows upward mobility except for it is based on greed and not being "trust worthy"?

I dunno there is a part of me that wishes the propaganda was true. It would be nice to live in a world where everyone is nice and respectful of each other. No lying, no cheating, etc. I'm sure that it's not implemented well at all in China, and resembles more of a Police State hellscape than anything but there is a part of me wishes that bad landlord I had or that person who ripped me off etc weren't able to get away with it so easily.

diydsp3• 7 years ago

sort of. but at least in capitalism, individuals are free to choose which behaviors deserve dollars. obviously billionaires have outsized influence, but many small voice still matter. in PRC, some govt committee decides which behaviors get credit.

JohnFen6• 7 years ago

individuals are free to choose which behaviors deserve dollars

That's more a function of a free market than capitalism.

syrrim• 7 years ago

"it's based on greed"

All systems reward greed. The more detached they are from how people naturally behave, the more they reward people who chase the system at the expense of thise who what comes naturally. Capitalism rewards people for fulfilling other's revealed preferences. A democratically-decided social credit system would reward people for doing what the majority says they should do. Both systems would occasionally reward people for anti-social behaviour, and require legislative correction. Of the two, I would prefer the one oriented towards the needs and desires of the individual, not of the collective.

We would like a world where people are more kind. Why not pay people to be kind to you?

- an induced kindness it not desirable, we want a natural kindness

- it's subjective: what one person thinks is kind, another doesn't; how would we write that contract?

- there's a tradeoff: while we value kindness, in many cases others value not being kind more than we value kindness; you would likely have to pay more than you are willing to pay

- transaction costs: while the subjectivity problem might be solved, it would be at great expense, this would probably push the price over the edge where it wasn't already

All these reasons apply equally to inducing kindness with a social credit system. I think the tradeoff problem would likely be ignored. That is, people would be forced to be kind against their wish (being punished for not doing it rather than rewarded for doing it). Suppose I believe that the burden of being constantly forced to be kind would outweigh the advantage of living in a world where everyone is kind all the time. A capitalist system tests this claim, a democratic social credit system ignores it in favour if the will of the majority.

jkingsbery2• 7 years ago

Arguably, when people think of capitalism, they think of Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," and all it entails about trade, specialization, profit, etc. For much of its history though, capitalism depended on a lot of what Smith wrote about in "On the Theory of Moral Sentiments," i.e., societies work because people "naturally [desire], not only to be loved, but to be lovely."

In the West, we're trying to figure out the right allocation of goods through the market economy, and the right way "to be lovely" through freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc.

ian0• 7 years ago

Heres one for you. A benevolent and all knowing AGI runs a tamper proof social credit system that penalises things that are "bad" in the eyes of a strict majority and rewards things that are "good", reducing the rights of people with poor scores to limit potential harm they can do and giving people with good scores more leeway.

What are the ethical considerations here? Is it just a perfect democracy + judicial system? Does it impact growth as a society? Im remembering the quote "All progress depends on the unreasonable man". Would it be a very conservative society that resulted?

PS should go without saying, but this is just thought exercise, obviously..

fuzz4lyfe• 7 years ago

Aristotle once said:

"Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms."

My expectation for such a system is that a majority group who have a specific lifestyle would penalize anyone who does not strictly adhere to that specific lifestyle. The group would change over time (likely liberal, then conservative, then back again) and each group would become more and more dogmatic about those views. Eventually the group will resemble something like the Nazis or the Soviets and violent revolution or war would end the experiment.

Source: the past two thousand years of human civilization

kevin_thibedeau• 7 years ago

See Elysium and the AI parole officer.

gpm• 7 years ago

A perfect democracy includes the right to vote to allow people to do things that you think are bad though, and to vote to change the rules of the system together (such as to vote in a system where crimes/punishments must be defined beforehand, like they currently must be in the real world america).

voldacar• 7 years ago

This just sounds like a (fairly unexceptional) tyranny of the majority. Our society may already be heading in this direction, albeit in a softer sense, with the rise of filter bubbles and highly polarized outrage culture

vernie• 7 years ago

I hope they dock the girl to the right of center a few points for piss-poor heart-hands.

kelvin0• 7 years ago

Makes me think of a Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

Really creepy stuff ...

uoaei• 7 years ago

The only episode to cause me to physically cringe during the whole viewing.

scarejunba• 7 years ago

Me too, because the idea is sound, and the people involved ended up essentially 'in the right place'.

tomxor3• 7 years ago

@ 1:24 - You need good social credit to buy food!? holly fuck they are taking it up a notch.

... i'm half joking though, I have been to China many times, there is no way this is going to be effective for all of the cheap restaurants and street food. One thing I've learned about China, is although we often interpret their emerging laws and policies to be extreme (which they are) - what we don't appreciate is the context - they are not enforced as widely, rigorously and thoroughly as in the west. This is at least partly cultural and geographic, and it is probably this same reason that contributes to some of the Chinese government's overreach in the first place (to overcompensate). It does not excuse the human rights issues, but explains them somewhat.

bitwize• 7 years ago

What that means, invariably, is that they will be enforced less against the politically connected and more on those without friends in high places.

__sy__2• 7 years ago

Enforcement of laws is inversely proportional to your 關係 (guanxi).

mandelbrotwurst• 7 years ago

It's a bit more complicated than that. Many of these enforcement mechanisms are highly network dependent.

People who are themselves less networked (e.g. less online, spending more time in rural areas or spaces with less cameras) are more likely to be overlooked by these enforcement mechanisms.

To understand this a bit better, consider how much more likely someone who owns a car is to receive traffic tickets from cameras than is than someone who does not.

Bonooru• 7 years ago

they are not enforced ... widely, rigorously and thoroughly

That's a major source of the danger. If they were being consistently and equally enforced, then it would be obvious when there were issues. In the case with selective enforcement, the government can point to the law and say they're in the right, but only apply it when it suits them. This lets the people making the rules and the people who are in their good graces do what they'd like due to selective enforcement and not face the consequences of their actions.

tomxor3• 7 years ago

Yes, like I said it does not excuse it, and for some laws especially those with severe punishment, it's a serious concern.

However in the case of certain types of policies it's not about intentional selectivity, it's about selectivity due to infeasibility, a type of selectivity that is not completely effective against any individual. For instance this one i'm pointing out: it's not possible to hold every single food source hostage in any country... but seriously, we are talking about food... in China... i'm running out of ellipses...

the_resistence2• 7 years ago

This is so awesome. I hope it takes hold some millenia.

winrid• 7 years ago

Also, how do you increase your social credit I wonder? Do some stuff to help your community? How is it tracked?

I couldn't find anything like you get X points for Y.

A Chinese social credit song

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