China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans from leaving

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/09/14/china-increasingly-using-exit-bans-bar-americans-leaving/2269191001/

by onetimemanytime • 7 years ago

329 236 7 years ago

usatoday.com

cheez3• 7 years ago

I recently had an opportunity to go work in China for 6 months and declined for this reason (and others.)

uwuhn2• 7 years ago

I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.

DeonPenny2• 7 years ago

They exit ban foreigners for unpaid debts. Apparently this extremely common

unreal37• 7 years ago

Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view.

China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation for things going on in world politics.

Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1]

Many people view these arrests at retaliation.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions...

leongrado• 7 years ago

This. If you're some some random scrub going to China, the government isn't going to bat an eye if you enter the country. Thousands of American citizens go to and from China every day. Detaining you for no reason is not what they're looking for.

cheez3• 7 years ago

Or you simply piss off the wrong person.

I tend to do this regularly, so that was the other reason ;-)

_iyig• 7 years ago

Or you simply piss off the wrong person.

This can be hard to avoid. For example, let’s say you get caught in a “tea room” scam. That’s where you meet a couple of attractive locals who invite you to a tea room, only when the bill comes it’s astronomically higher than you expected. Your new “friends” and the owners of the establishment are in cahoots. What do you do? If you say you won’t pay and the owners make a scene, it’s entirely possible that a crowd forms, someone shouts “That foreigner said Chinese people are trash!”, and now you’re sitting in a Chinese jail with lumps on your head and criminal charges.

Or maybe a drunk harasses you, and the same thing happens. Or you get into a fender bender with some friend of a Party member. And so on.

If you are a foreigner in China and get involved in a legal dispute, it will probably not go well for you. There is no independent judiciary. Your freedom would be subject to the Party’s political needs.

Some firsthand accounts (ignore the clickbait titles/thumbnails, they’re just playing the YouTube algorithm game):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1V1Tiavb5GE

https://youtube.com/watch?v=h_2FHnYfzBg

jacquesm• 7 years ago

For what value of 'probably' would you want to sit it out? Personally you couldn't pay me to go to places that do not have functional courts.

a3n2• 7 years ago

Or your company becomes involved in a conflict, making you a pawn. It ain't worth it.

verroq• 7 years ago

The Americans cannot step into an US embassy and be carried out in a diplomatic bag?

toast0• 7 years ago

That's probably possible, but would likely make it very hard for those evacuated in that manner to return to China in the future. It's not tourists here, it's people who went to visit their family and are now stuck.

djsumdog2• 7 years ago

huh .. Surely they've got to the US embassy. I wonder what the response was? I think there may be complications in this case due to the dual citizenship (especially with China not allowing dual citizens).

OldHand2018• 7 years ago

I don't know much about this, but [1], yes there are likely complications:

Dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries, and either country has the right to enforce its laws. It is important to note the problems attendant to dual nationality. Claims of other countries upon U.S. dual-nationals often place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts of the U.S. Government to provide consular protection to them when they are abroad, especially when they are in the country of their second nationality.

[1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega...

alexis_fr2• 7 years ago

As far as I know, occurrences of diplomatic bags for carrying persons have been extremely, extremely rare (less than a dozen) and are forbidden.

sgift• 7 years ago

and are forbidden.

That's correct - Article 27,4 of the "Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations":

The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/convention...

anovikov2• 7 years ago

The government must help it's citizens, especially as ban is unlawful and has nothing to do with any kind of criminal prosecution. One thing if they were arrested, but this... Why not just extract them?

tln• 7 years ago

Maybe because challenging China's sovereignty is risky? Just a guess. It's a good question.

With the rapid growth of global tourism, there are a lot more citizens visiting different countries. I wonder if the state dept (or equivalent in other govts) are getting stretched.

The article makes it clear that China is making up criminal cases to justify exit bans, as well.

anovikov2• 7 years ago

Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they mention anything. And denial after.

What also works is making the most of these cases in PR sense. To show people that travel to China is risky. Must be a good way of impeding their economic growth and world influence, who wants to deal in a country like that.

simion314• 7 years ago

Because the situation can be exploited, the government just needs to twist and push the story so the next actions related to China are motivated or citizen get distracted related to the real reasons behind the actions.

throwaway2048• 7 years ago

When you are in another country, and the government decides to abuse you, detain you or even straight up execute you, there is very, very little your home country can do about it, besides complain and try to assist you with some advice (not legal advice however).

They aren't going to invade another country to recover you, or do much of anything else. Even if you are American.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...

Keep this in mind before you travel.

Read travel advisories, they are not overblown, or alarmist, they are important sources of information to fully understand before you travel.

https://travelmaps.state.gov/TSGMap/

https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice

sverige3• 7 years ago

Apparently people have forgotten that China is governed by a communist dictatorship, or they wouldn't be surprised by this behavior.

est• 7 years ago

That's why people invest in Vietnam instead. Oh wait...

guelo• 7 years ago

I would call it a capitalist dictatorship at this point.

sverige3• 7 years ago

Kleptocracy != Capitalism

stretchwithme3• 7 years ago

Crony capitalist dictatorship.

chrischen3• 7 years ago

Authoritarian regime... actually much like Singapore. Let’s not forget South Korea was literally a dictatorship up until 80s.

Only difference was China was a lot poorer so people shit on it all the time and find them less relatable and respectable. And also it isn’t under the US’s thumb.

cuspycode• 7 years ago

Let's not forget that the chinese communist party is currently performing three different genocides simultaneously: genocide against tibetans, genocide against uyghurs, and genocide against falun gong practitioners. So it's on a different level when compared to most other authoritarian regimes.

green-eclipse• 7 years ago

This is really bad since China doesn't have a working court system to fall back on:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1...

a3n2• 7 years ago

They do have a very effective working court system. The question is who it works for.

stjohnswarts3• 7 years ago

I'd say it works very well for the communist party.

tmepdidjdj2• 7 years ago

It works for the politburo standing committee and Xi. The legal system are “stewards” for the Chinese government (according the white paper to Hong Kong).

Hence you find so many people in China vying for government jobs because if you climb high enough, the law is below you. That is very dangerous because the only accountability is the person on top.

robocat• 7 years ago

The working court systems of Canada and the US arrested the Huawei finance chief Meng Wanzhou, who just happens to be the daughter of the founder of Huawei.

That seemed like a very politically motivated arrest (she is still awaiting extradition): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858

_ptgt• 7 years ago

She also happens to be the CFO of Huawei who (allegedly) personally lied to international banks to circumvent US export controls?

I'm not familiar with the court system in Canada, but criminal cases in the US take a long time. AFAIK Meng Wanzhou's delay is not unusual.

pas• 7 years ago

She will have a trial, we are pretty certain that ot will be fair. If the whole arrest was made frivolously she can sue and has great chance to get a rather big settlement.

quaquaqua1• 7 years ago

Thoudands of Chinese citizens have been subjected to the ban, including an unknown number of foreigners.

A good question here would be if the "foreigners" as defined are, for example, Asian-Australians or Asian-Americans who are not Chinese passport holders but were raised by Chinese parents.

I imagine that anyone can be accused of spying, but so far it seems it is mostly happening along racial lines.

The reason I am asking is because my girlfriend is an H1B Chinese citizen and she is required to return to China next year to renew some paperwork. I want to come with her to visit the country and I'm curious what the (small) odds are that we would have a problem.

Out of the many millions of people who visit China every year, it seems like you roughly run a 0.01% chance of having a problem, which is non-zero but also not terrible. Theoretically you have to piss off some authorities at a high level to warrant de facto house arrest.

chrischen3• 7 years ago

Most Americans visit even North Korea as part of tour groups without issue... up until that kid decided to steal propaganda. These scary stories are vastly overblown. Barack Obama’s half brother lives in China... if nothing has happened to him frankly you are nowhere important enough for anyone to care.

mandarinqer• 7 years ago

I don’t think this comparison is apt; although, I don’t necessarily disagree with your conclusion. Simply because China would think 10x as hard before making a move on a former presidents brother. Whereas, it’s a much easier decision to mess with a nobody.

zchrykng• 7 years ago

Conversely, the Chinese government is probably willing to bend over backwards to make sure nothing happens to Obama's brother because of the political nightmare it would be for them.

dirtyid3• 7 years ago

Alternate title: China doesn't give carte blanche to foreign fraudsters and spies.

In context of Victor and Cynthia Lu, the siblings father is accused of embezzling 1.4 billion. From memory, millions of assets was put under their names in form of US real estate making them legally culpable. More importantly:

The Chinese Foreign Ministry defended the holding of the three family members, saying: “The people you mentioned all own legal and valid identity documents as Chinese citizens. Because they are suspected of economic crimes, they are restricted from exiting the country by the Chinese police in accordance with the law.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ba...

China doesn't allow dual citizenship, Chinese nationals (including HKers) who naturalize abroad is suppose to renounce their Chinese citizenship. Many don't, choosing to travel on Chinese papers for expediency (no need for VISA) etc which subjects them to Chinese law. There's no extradition treaty to China which makes these dumb administration hacks backfire. The article also covered spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies exit bans.

E: I think the greater story is that white expats in some countries no longer get preferential treatment due to trade war (US + Canada), and ex Chinese nationals are not safe from CPC reach just because they have a passport with no PRC extradition treaty, but especially if they're being dumb and travelling to China using Chinese papers they were suppose to renounce.

khuey4• 7 years ago

Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable" they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a year.

Their mistake was traveling to a totalitarian communist dictatorship and expecting not to be at risk of arbitrary detention.

djsumdog2• 7 years ago

Remember the case of the German engineer who was arrested in Florida while trying to return home after his vacation?

https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arr...

gameswithgo• 7 years ago

so capitalist democracies never detain people for a year without charges?

VLM• 7 years ago

China has to walk a tightrope where if they're too humane they're accused of randomly treating arbitrary innocent bystanders like criminals, and on the other extreme they'd be letting co-conspirators walk free.

They seem to be taking a sensible path down the middle? Lets be realistic, the kids aren't significant co conspirators if the dollar values of the supposed identity thefts or conspiracies are really small compared to the whole (at least... as far as the authorities can publicly announce, LOL, maybe they are in deeper than they can announce), and you can't expect relatives to testify or cooperate against each other reliably anyway. On the other hand they're literally members of a "crime family" and if this happened to mafia members, people would not be overly surprised to hear semi-clean conspirators are having a rough time with the law.

Much like "anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time", arbitrary detention is hardly limited to one specific country or political system. I'm sure Assange, Snowden, and the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay would beg to differ with your opinion.

jopsen• 7 years ago

Haha, Spot on :)

ajross• 7 years ago

I can't find corroboration for most of that. Per the Times story, the younger sibling was born in the US. None of the sources for this story seem to indicate that these two were travelling on PRC passports or otherwise in the country as citizens. Nor is there any claim of espionage on their part.

I mean, the arc of your claim (that this is just fallout of an otherwise legitimate crime investigation and not a deliberate punishment for these kids or the US in particualr) is probably true. But still, fabricating arguments against them doesn't make it OK for them to be held against international law.

dirtyid3• 7 years ago

There's no espionage claims, I think it's purely over economic crime. I don't know if they're complicit, their parents may have moved laundered assets under their name without their knowledge. I'm not even sure if their detainment is for the purpose of investigate, coercion or they're merely being made an example of to others.

As for Chinese papers, this is speculation territory but with some personal knowledge. You can buy Chinese identities, there's a market for it. I know people who previously revoked their PRC citizenship but later acquired a dead persons identity to buy property and start business in mainland among other perks.

NotSammyHagar4• 7 years ago

Some of these exit bans might be in the situation you describe, but other ones are not. US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports, who aren't under any known investigations have also been held back in exit bans. Also, holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable.

The fact that these bans are only becoming more frequent now with the trade war is evidence that they aren't just a neutral exercise.

diego• 7 years ago

Are they becoming more frequent or is the press mentioning them more often? Citations needed.

dirtyid3• 7 years ago

but other ones are not

But what are these others. The article's examples are: billion+ fraud, espionage, and political corruption by family members. The last one is optically the most senselessly punitive. Clearly political retaliations which I oppose. For financial crimes, in absence of extradition treaties, China's hands are tied, we shouldn't expect them to just allow mass fraud to go unanswered. Punishing billionaires, albeit with bias, is one of the few things China does partially right. Espionage rationalizes itself.

holding someone's adult children because their father is suspected of something is never acceptable.

From NYT: >The couple sold the Arcadia home in 2004 and bought a house in a gated community in Armonk, N.Y., an affluent town, records show. The home was transferred to Cynthia Liu’s name in 2011 and sold in 2014 for almost $900,000.

There's shenanigans suggesting the kids were used to launder assets which makes them directly culpable. There's no telling how much of this is actually a family affair. They're not kids. They're adults who have benefited from embezzled money.

aren't just a neutral exercise.

No they're not, Chinese law was never neutral when it comes to expats, but it's hard to feel sorry when western drug dealers or spies complain losing white privilege. The point is, China-US-Canadian relationships are cooling. If you have GOOD reason to be targeted by China, then don't go there. There are hundreds of thousands of expats in China, when some of them get arrested, the question should really be, why them in particular.

sandworm1014• 7 years ago

> US citizens, born in the us, who also never had chinese passports,

The simplistic American system of citizenship is not universal. Being born in a country does not always make one automatically a citizen of that country. So too does being born in country A not negate one's automatic citizenship in country B.

From the perspective of China, that a person was born in the US is immaterial. If they are born to Chinese parents then they are Chinese, especially when now standing inside China. This is why one should always talk to a lawyer before visiting "the old country" with kids born elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nationality_law

Bigger horror story: First generation Iranian-Canadian family fly to Iran to introduce canadian-born grandchildren to Iranian-born grandparents. At airport for flight home. 19 years old? Male? born to Iranian parents? standing inside Iran? Have you done your military service?

Whether one can "disavow" a citizenship is a big question. Citizenship is not a hat. You cannot just move to Canada, marry a Canadian, and suddenly expect not to owe US taxes ... or not be drafted into a US war.

thrwwy4822• 7 years ago

The article also covered spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies exit bans.

As a Westerner I have a lot of trouble understanding how you can consider what you just wrote as obvious. Could you describe your thinking about this more? I know you said it's obvious but I don't get why.

hungryhobo2• 7 years ago

Do you consider the exit ban placed on Huawei's CFO as obvious?

zbxofnfkcnx2• 7 years ago

It’s right there in the sentence you quoted (albeit awkwardly written)! The spouse is also suspected of spying!

Do you think the Chinese are idiots? Or that we don’t do the same??

stjohnswarts3• 7 years ago

Your post doesn't cover all the cases where there is no valid reason for this ban on people who did nothing wrong and are just being denied because of the trade war.

gtirloni2• 7 years ago

Do you have examples?

ummonk• 7 years ago

Wait, why should the spouse of a spy be subject to an exit ban?

avocado4• 7 years ago

Because China doesn't believe in individualism. You are defined by your party affiliation, friends, family, race (Han vs non-Han), and skin color (brown/"dirty"脏 Asian vs white Asian).

zbxofnfkcnx2• 7 years ago

For the same reason the spouse would be taken in, questioned, and possibly passport taken away in the US - to ensure the spouse doesn’t know anything of interest to investigators.

I mean, let’s not be daft. If Snowden hadn’t shielded his g/f as well as he did, Ms. Mills would have never been allowed to leave the US.

She either would have been charged with espionage, or for breaking one of the innumerable laws we all break in a daily basis.

MaupitiBlue• 7 years ago

1. There’s a good chance they have information relevant to the spying.

2. To get leverage on the spy.

3. To send a message to other spies and spouses.

Those are three common-sense reasons I can think of. I’m sure there are a dozen others.

Sam777666• 7 years ago

I agree, there was a big story about China'a arrest of an Indian business man, https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-16381464

Years later it turned out he was one of the main scammers in Dubai https://gulfnews.com/uae/expose-trading-scam-masterminds-unm...

mapgrep• 7 years ago

Punishing relatives for the crimes of family members is barbaric. I’d be surprised to see anyone at HN defending this sort of legal system.

gruez5• 7 years ago

I’d be surprised to see anyone at HN defending this sort of legal system.

Not surprising at all if you check his comment history.

jjcc2• 7 years ago

Great summary. Thanks for your bravery!

Most readers who have the knowledge about China instantly know the author is misleading audience by put up half truth and remove important relevant context. But those readers might not dare to speak out because it would be heavily down voted because truth doesn't match the popular belief that Chinese government is an evil authoritarian regime. It's sad that quite large portion of population still can not differentiate facts and their own belief. HNer's are already much better than other online communities.

jki2754• 7 years ago

China's place in the world as an evil authoritarian regime isn't seriously debated by anyone who has read even a little history.

It's not a "belief", it's fact. Mao killed 45 million people.

ipsocannibal• 7 years ago

The article also covered spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies exit bans.

So mere association is the justification for the spouse's exit ban?

jakeogh• 7 years ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18771384

tomohawk3• 7 years ago

Related: Canada Picks "Hostage Negotiator" As China Envoy

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hosta...

chiefalchemist• 7 years ago

When I was a kid China was always referred to as Communist China. As it became profitable and acceptable to do business with China the Communist prefix was conveniently dropped.

"Exit bans" are unfortunate, but certainly no surprise to those who still remember to use the prefix.

peterwwillis3• 7 years ago

Other side of that coin is America using entry bans as a political tool. Lots of families here in the US have family abroad that aren't allowed to enter the country and reunite, because banning an entire country due to "terrorism" looks good at the polls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_...

Who is downvoting this? Explain yourselves.

umvi3• 7 years ago

That's... not really the same. One of them is Hotel California, the other you are inconvenienced for where your family reunions will happen.

peterwwillis3• 7 years ago

One of them is Hotel California, the other is "I would like to see my mother again and have her meet my children, but she isn't allowed in the country," or "my brother is stuck in a war-torn country and I can't get him out." It's not just an inconvenience, it's families that are forcibly separated for totally bullshit reasons. (In addition it's "I can't take a job in the US", "I can't support my family members in time of crisis", and so on)

Here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban...

  - The number of people who fall under the ban exceeds 135 million
  - The majority are in the five Muslim-majority nations, led by Iran, with a population of more than 80 million

"The executive order "affects the lives and families" of at least 187 Google employees" (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200...)

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09...

"Dr. Suha Abushamma, 26, is an internal medicine resident at the Cleveland Clinic. Although she had an H-1B visa for workers in “specialty occupations,” which should allow her to enter, live, and work in the United States, Abushamma was not permitted to enter the country. Abushamma holds a passport from Sudan, which is one of the banned nations."

"Sahar Algonaimi, 60, was detained for five hours at Chicago O’Hare International Airport following the issuance of the executive order. Algonaimi, a Syrian national, had traveled to the United States from Saudi Arabia to visit her 76-year-old mother who is recovering from surgery for breast cancer. Although she held a U.S. visa and had planned to stay in the country for a week, she was she was forced to board a flight to the United Arab Emirates instead of being allowed to clear customs."

"“I needed someone to be with me here,” Ulayyet said through tears at the hospital. “How am I going to teach my kids and tell them that this is a free country? How can we tell my kids that we have to take care of each other?”"

You don't think these sound similar to the OP?

jl2718• 7 years ago

These cases clearly have nothing to do with the current president or any American policy. If the author has no rational justification for their position, I will assume they have a dishonest purpose, and therefore I should be inclined to believe and act the opposite way they want me to.

kchoudhu• 7 years ago

Most Americans have forgotten that the first rule of international travel is not to overtly fuck with totalitarian regimes.

With the unipolar world of the last thirty years coming to a messy end, that's a lesson we're going to have internalize again. Be humble, be careful with the risks you take abroad, and steer clear of overtly dangerous places.

narnianal• 7 years ago

The basic idea is to not fuck with any local system/law/culture if you're abroad.

jMyles2• 7 years ago

I don't agree with the word "any" here. There's nothing wrong with taking a disruptive approach to oppression when you witness it, but calculating your position relative to the system/law/culture so that you are able to live freely to act justly another day - that can be the tricky part.

I remember seeing hotel staff act in an overtly and disgustingly racist way in Cape Town, South Africa. As a tourist, hotel guest, American, and white person, I knew that I had all of the systemic privilege on my side. So I had no problem assisting the underprivileged people in that situation.

Now, with a powerful totalitarian system like China, it might be a different calculation.

gruez5• 7 years ago

Be humble, be careful with the risks you take abroad, and steer clear of overtly dangerous places.

That advice wouldn't have helped the americans in the article.

jki2754• 7 years ago

If you read it "Don't travel to China" it would have.

chapium• 7 years ago

that pretty obvious tbh

fps_doug• 7 years ago

It's probably safe to say this applies to most westerners, and not just limited to totalitarian regimes, but developing countries in general. I woudln't say it's the majority, but a lot of people seem to run around there thinking they're great white saviors with infinite wisdom.

cltsang• 7 years ago

True.

But most Americans don't fuck with DPRK even if for some reason they decide to travel there. The core of the problem is they underestimate how "totalitarian" China is.

DeonPenny2• 7 years ago

Wow when did appeasement become something americans should be ok with. Why are you so ok with that being the world we live in. Tip toeing around monsters instead of pushing them out of the world stage.

keiferski• 7 years ago

I call it “crying wolf in reverse”: The problem with being a totalitarian state that falsely imprisons people on a regular basis is that you’ve lost all moral authority when it comes to arresting people for actual crimes. If you’ve falsified evidence, conducted show trials and made a mockery of rule of law before, why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time?

MadSudaca• 7 years ago

In reverse because China is the wolf.

luckylion3• 7 years ago

why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time?

Because it does not matter to anybody. Saddam didn't have the WMDs, the evidence was manufactured. Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs?

On the international level, power matters. Political power, military power, economic power, not your reputation.

gruez5• 7 years ago

Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is developing/using WMDs?

When was the last time that US used the WMDs excuse to drag allies into war?

tokai• 7 years ago

Here it has been used by some politicians, as an augment to stay out of a new illegal war in Iran. So I would say it has harmed US trustworthiness.

chillacy11• 7 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

politics or diplomacy based primarily on considerations of given circumstances and factors, rather than explicit ideological notions or moral and ethical premises

udfalkso• 7 years ago

Anecdote: I visited China in July for 3 weeks. I'm an American. They let me leave.

mirimir• 7 years ago

The discussion is mostly about whether China is justified, and whether the US does similar things.

What interests me is the fact that, as pretty much an American, I just don't understand Chinese culture. The TFA doesn't discuss Chinese public opinion about these cases. But in analogy to the Hong Kong situation, I suspect that the public isn't sympathetic.

Of course, from an American perspective, social control and propaganda obviously account for that. But what if those weren't the main factors?

Is it really true that individuals don't matter so much in Chinese culture? Except mainly how they affect society, that is.

But maybe that's far too simplistic.

And of course, I have similar questions about what American culture is really about. Or even if there is such a thing.

Leary• 7 years ago

Educated people from western countries have political norms that they think are universal but are actually highly contingent on the Enlightenment. These values such as freedom and democracy have some limited play in China but are not esteemed to the same extent, especially after Communist ideologies became dominant after 1949. Rather than considering liberalism as a normative end to pursue, Chinese were more likely to treat it as way to pursue national wealth and power.

China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans from leaving

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