Hong Kong Police Fire Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets at Protesters

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-protest-debate-postponed-on-extradition-bill-as-crowds-swell-in-opposition-11560309637

by JumpCrisscross • 7 years ago

356 192 7 years ago

wsj.com

pleasecalllater• 7 years ago

Could someone explain my why they really protest? Anybody from Hong Kong here? I read a couple of different explanations and I'm not sure.

JumpCrisscross4• 7 years ago

Could someone explain my why they really protest?

Vox recently made a good video on the topic [1].

In 1984, Beijing agreed with Britain that after the handoff in 1997, China would respect Hong Kong’s political system [2]. Hence, Deng Xiaoping’s “one country, two systems” [3].

Beijing is breaking that agreement. It already tried abduction [4]. Now it wants to be able to extradite anyone to China to be tried in Chinese courts.

This is problematic. Hong Kong, like Japan, Taiwan, Britain and America, has an independent judiciary where the government must prove its case. So if a dissident is tried in Hong Kong, prosecutors have to prove their case in a relatively fair court.

Chinese courts are party instruments. (Consider that there is no way to enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the 1984 agreement.) Under the proposed legislation, said dissident would be shipped to China where a rubber-stamp conviction could be sought.

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over...

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

[4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappear...

NedIsakoff2• 7 years ago

The agreement between China and UK was for 50 years, so by right China can start changing things totally in 2047. So the issue is China is 28 years too early.

Why the downvote? The Wikipedia article even backs it up: "The Basic Law ensured Hong Kong will retain its capitalist economic system and own currency (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China." -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

ptah• 7 years ago

I am unsure why beijing would be obligated to make any promises to UK as they are essentially just taking back their property after a lease ended?

fennecfoxen2• 7 years ago

Note that, besides dissidents and the obvious human rights risks, major international firms have often used Hong Kong as a regional headquarters for their Southeast Asian business (or just as a headquarters generally). This is also threatened, as these businesses thrive in an environment defined by capitalism, property rights, and the rule of law — rather than government-run enterprise, property seizure, and the whims of China's rulers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/business/hong-kong-china-...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/11/asia/hong-kong-extradition-ch...

https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/labor-business-alarmed-b...

calyth2018• 7 years ago

https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903...

knolax• 7 years ago

How is China the one violating the agreement when it's the Hong Kong Legislative Council passing the extradition law.

I mean even the protesters are protesting against __their__ legislative council. [0]

[0] "forced the city’s legislature to postpone debate on a widely unpopular bill"

dehrmann• 7 years ago

Beijing is breaking that agreement.

You forgot China having to approve candidates in Hong Kong elections: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-32397179

pbalau• 7 years ago

Now it wants to be able to extradite anyone to China to be tried in Chinese courts.

That's not true.

It allows for extradition requests from authorities in mainland China, Taiwan and Macau for suspects accused of serious criminal wrongdoing such as murder and rape. The requests would then be decided on a case-by-case basis. [1]

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48591001

digianarchist2• 7 years ago

In that first video he states Hong Kong was leased to Britain for 99 years. Not exactly true. Hong Kong Island was seized like Gibraltar. Only the New Territories were leased. (the footage admittedly corrects this).

"The lease consisted of the rest of Kowloon south of the Shenzhen River and 230 islands, which became known as the New Territories. The British formally took possession on 16 April 1899." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong#Growth_and_e...

stevekemp• 7 years ago

The BBC has a couple of explanations, first this video:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48599658/hong-k...

Secondly if you prefer a written summary:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-47810723

jasonjei• 7 years ago

If the extradition law passes, anybody in Hong Kong (citizens and foreigners) can be extradited to face the capricious justice system of China. This is an existential crisis for Hong Kong. They can protest now, but they might not be able to protest in a year from now.

wyuenho3• 7 years ago

Basically, not long after Huawei's CFO was arrested in Canada, the HK gov has, using a murder case that happened in Taiwan as a pretense, to revive a long dead extradition bill that will, for the first time since the handover, that HK will have an extradition agreement with a totalitarian government that has long known for human rights violation and lack an independent judiciary. Given the current rigged power structure, the gov has well over the majority in the legislature to pass this bill, which many believe, will effectively end the separate legal jurisdiction of HK and China, and effectively end the only protection HK still has from becoming just another mainland city.

As to what it means to foreigners, another post earlier on the frontpage has some pretty good explanation there. If you land in HK, due to how jurisdictions work, and if the Chinese government charges you with anything, which can be arbitrary due to the trade war, you can be extradited to China from an allegedly free city.

HK is stuck right in the middle of some super-power geopolitical power play here.

dade_2• 7 years ago

And so is Canada. High time someone does something about it. Back channel diplomacy appears dead.

jcytong• 7 years ago

You don't have to land in HK to be extradited. You can simply be extradited in transit through HK.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/07/hkfp-voices-hong-kongs...

kyrra• 7 years ago

(this is based on my reading from various WSJ articles).

The short version is that Hong Kong was setup as a territory with its own government and justice arms (separate from mainland China). The proposed law would effectively make it so anyone that steps foot in Hong Kong would be subject to mainland China laws. There are restrictions in the bill, saying that the crime must have a sentence >= 7 years, and there must be a similar law on the books in Hong Kong. But the people fear it will be used to further extend China's influence into Hong Kong.

Hong Kong has been doing more bidding of mainland China over the last few years (after the failed 2014 call for democracy). For example, back in October, they deported a reporter for a meeting they didn't agree with[0].

[0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-ousts-journalist-who-...

chrisfinazzo• 7 years ago

@JumpCrisscross covered it pretty well, tbh.

Not that this answers your question, but in the past, finance pros have also protested when the Stock Exchange moved to shorten its lunch break.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Stock_Exchange#Tradi...

Tl;dr Asia is...unique.

Leary3• 7 years ago

In 2018, a Hong Kong man killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan, returned to Hong Kong, and then admitted that he killed her. However, the police could not charge him for murder or extradite him to Taiwan. In response, the Hong Kong government proposed a bill which established a way to transfer fugitives to other countries on a case to case basis. This bill of Hong Kong caused some fear that Hong Kong would be affected by mainland Chinese laws.

y2kenny3• 7 years ago

The Taiwan case is just an excuse. Taiwan already said they will refuse the transfer under such bill: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition-expl...

Taiwan is not China so an extradition law with mainland China does not matter for a case involving Taiwan.

larrysalibra5• 7 years ago

Here a few short videos with protestors explaining why they're there in their own words: https://twitter.com/selsdon1/status/1138819361135661056 https://twitter.com/selsdon1/status/1138822264818769920

y2kenny3• 7 years ago

This video give a good summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUl-J0oh3k0

jger15• 7 years ago

Found these posts from Inkstone helpful:

https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/hong-kongs-extradition...

https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/hong-kong-part-china-why-...

tzakrajs4• 7 years ago

Reads like propaganda

komali23• 7 years ago

How so? I'm a bloodhound for PRC propaganda but it passed the smell test for me.

alanwong2• 7 years ago

Thanks for sharing those. (I wrote them.)

SCAQTony• 7 years ago

For the Hong Kong protesters to be successful perhaps they have to "export" their values and demands to be applicable for the rest of China rather than their microcosm. I suspect Guangzhou, Shenzen, Dongguan may have no sympathy for those in Hong Kong who have more rights and a better standard of living than they do.

aaomidi2• 7 years ago

I really, really wish these protests spread to mainland China.

hkai3• 7 years ago

That would not be possible.

toinetoine• 7 years ago

No sympathy is right. A lot of people I've talked to in Shenzhen feel HKers 看不起大陆人 look down on mainlanders.

baybal22• 7 years ago

Well, at least they are interested. Today evening on a metro, I think quite a few people were watching videos on HK events

dade_2• 7 years ago

Mainlanders don't share etiquette & hygiene standards that HK has from the west. If China would import anything besides human rights...

theblackcat1002• 7 years ago

You have to look at this issue from a Hong Kong resident point of view (I am not a Hong Kong resident). Since the handover to the China government, the average living cost is higher than ever before [1], real estate price skyrocket due to huge amount of investment from China[2]. Some Hong Kongers may blame these issues to "mainlanders" for "disrupting" their live.

Also in 2013 "mainlanders" rush to Hong Kong to buy milk powder due to the poisonous milk power scandal in China, causing a shortage of milk power in Hong Kong [3]. I certainly wouldn't be happy if suddenly I can't buy milk power for my child because my neighbour had bought all of them.

[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1143157/hong-kon...

[2] https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3002396/hong-kong-home...

[3] https://www.worldjournal.com/6148953/article-%E9%A6%99%E6%B8...

spacehunt10• 7 years ago

Interestingly a lot of HK people here feel the rest of China is looking down on / showing no respect to us and everything that makes HK different from the mainland.

hkai3• 7 years ago

This relationship between Hong Kong people and mainland people is quite similar to immigrant issues in the West. Mainland immigrants are perceived to not work, receive free apartments in the world's most expensive city, and have poor judgment in things ranging from politics to obeying the call of nature.

JumpCrisscross4• 7 years ago

For the Hong Kong protesters to be successful perhaps they have to "export" their values and demands to be applicable for the rest of China

Not necessarily. Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN.

The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.

yhoneycomb• 7 years ago

Who says the UN (whose strongholds of power largely lie in Anglo and European countries) should have any say over what China does?

fasthandle• 7 years ago

Beijing also detained the head of Interpol who has not been seen since (a Chinese citizen). Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-chinese-head...

kartan• 7 years ago

have no sympathy for those in Hong Kong who have more rights and a better standard of living than they do.

I always find this paradox as interesting as sad.

This Lose/Win mentality evolved as a solution to small community of humans with limited resources. In that situation, how to split the insufficient resources is the main problem. The more others get, the less is left for me.

In current modern society, the more education and resources has the people around me the more they produce and I can benefit from it.

Or brain did not evolve to our modern world, I guess. Helping people to think Win/Win would be a great paradigm shift moving into the future of our society.

chongli• 7 years ago

I always find this paradox as interesting as sad.

It's crab mentality [1] and you're right, it's extremely sad. We see it absolutely everywhere. So many people who (for example) hate the rich rather than loving the poor.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

chvid2• 7 years ago

I think you touch on something very relevant. I have been there quite a few times and I like it there but many Chinese see Hong Kong people as spoiled and snobbish. Back when China took over Hong Kong, Hong Kong was something special. Today many mainland Chinese cities are just as wealthy and almost as international as Hong Kong; yet Hong Kong clings on to its special status.

Why are these people not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?

khuey• 7 years ago

Many cities on the Chinese mainland are nearly as wealthy as Hong Kong but none of them are remotely as "international".

And asking "why are [Hong Kongers] not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?" either betrays a serious lack of understanding of how the Chinese political system works or is a question asked in bad faith.

merpnderp• 7 years ago

Isn't that impossible without becoming a high ranking member of the Communist party? And isn't becoming a high ranking member of the Communist party impossible to do if you don't mostly agree with the current system of laws in mainland China?

jeromegv• 7 years ago

It looks like you are blaming people for standing up for their rights. The reason they still have special status is also because they have not been shy about fighting for their rights in the past, otherwise it would have been taking away a long time ago. Instead of blaming people for defending their rights (bringing everyone down), perhaps a better avenue would be to stand up with them and also protest and ask for more rights (bringing everyone up).

spacehunt10• 7 years ago

Firstly, the proposed law in question affects mainland Chinese people just as much as local HK people (in fact, it affects everyone who steps foot in Hong Kong).

Secondly, what do you think all those Tiananmen Square vigils held in HK every single year for the past 30 years were for?

kevin_b_er2• 7 years ago

The CPC will violently crush any attempt to ask for the rule of law in mainland China. If you protest in mainland China you may get Tiananmen Square'd. The authoritarian regime does NOT permit criticism, introspection, or questioning of the CPC regime. Public communication is censored.

crediblewitness• 7 years ago

That's like saying I shouldn't fight for my rights unless I fight for the rights of every person on planet earth. Where does our obligation to others start and end? No. First and foremost I will fight for my own freedoms.

jhanschoo• 7 years ago

One reason is simply that most of these cities exist today by virtue of top-down fiat, planning and investment. That is, they owe their present prosperity to the govt.'s policies.

ksec• 7 years ago

It would have been possible, or at least HK thought that was going to happen 20 years ago. The whole of China will become more HK alike. Instead China's close grip on power meant any of these western Values were not allowed to be exposed. Even the spoken languages Cantonese is silently being killed at an alarming rate.

Haga• 7 years ago

That's from the same school of thought that brought us the Syrian red line on poisonous gas, the successes of the Arab spring and the democratic reforms after tieanmin square? Demanding a revolution far away from danger at the top of your voice while with your voting feet trampling these futures of choice? If you want to remain free get out of Hong Kong while you still can..

chungleong• 7 years ago

I don't know how you can export "mainlanders are locusts" to the rest of China.

rollinDyno• 7 years ago

So apparently this is deemed to be "some interesting new phenomenon" so that it does not violate the guidelines and stays "On-Topic".

If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be discussed?

I'm all for talking politics by the way.

peterwwillis• 7 years ago

The rules are only enforced in order to reduce flame wars. They're not strictly followed and generally speaking whatever the mods feel like goes.

tzakrajs4• 7 years ago

Exactly. It’s not enough to say “oh we are trying to stop flame wars” when we are trying to talk about these topics to stop literal wars from occurring.

fawnzworth• 7 years ago

You know why :)

JumpCrisscross4• 7 years ago

If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be discussed?

Charlottesville was an internal protest of limited global consequence. This is the disassembly of a system of limited democracy and rule of law. It’s much more meaningful on a broader scale, and interesting as a result.

ohitsdom• 7 years ago

I'd say the rise of white nationalism is pretty meaningful and its impact on this administration (and foreign policy) has had significant consequences.

Leary3• 7 years ago

Apparently posts are considered too political when several people flag them. There are no hard rules that actually apply.

village-idiot• 7 years ago

The difference between "politics" and "world events" typically comes down to the geography of the observer.

tzakrajs4• 7 years ago

Because white nationalism is alive and strong even here.

challenger22• 7 years ago

Because China is emotionally distant enough from most HN commenters that it does not trigger a flame war.

umadon• 7 years ago

HN like other social online spaces is not neutral or free from influence. For example I would imagine upvotes are trivial to astroturf.

A quick search:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=purchase+upvotes+hackernews&ia=soc...

Shivetya• 7 years ago

Well for me, many technology companies do their best to do business in China. Apple, which loves to tell the world how much they support human rights, builds iPhones and other products in China regardless of how bad China's record is and more.

Yeah, my latest soap box is, companies have no right to tell us how great their rights support is, human, privacy, or otherwise, if they continue to produce product in a country like China, which seems to be doubling down on suppression.

majia4• 7 years ago

Could there be a reasonable compromise? For example each extradition case must be reviewed by an independent court or a board made of independent citizen representatives. A very high bar for extradition with sufficient due process can hopefully minimize CCP interference while preventing Hong Kong from becoming a safe haven for criminals and corrupt CCP officials.

wyuenho3• 7 years ago

That is exactly what was proposed by the HKBAR, but obviously it was refused. This isn't really just about extradition, it's about giving China enough power to capture anyone passing through Hong Kong that's worth a bargaining chip or two, which could mean a lot of investors and truly innovative founders here.

majia4• 7 years ago

I still don't understand why a robust review process cannot prevent China from capturing anyone passing through Hong Kong. What about letting protesters to form a committee to decide how can be extradited?

yohann305• 7 years ago

The case you're mentioning is well understood by the Honk Kong citizens, and your suggestions has already been addressed. In fact, the extradition to China was at first only allowed if the crime required 2 years of jail time in Honk Kong to make a case, then after the protests it got pushed to 7 years. But watch this YT video, as the HK citizens tell you why this is still a bad idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0i9yVphOZ8

ps: i'm not telling you why because #1) I won't do it justice and #2) it's worth watching the whole YT video.

rolltiide• 7 years ago

The new law does that, the prior/current law does that. The new law REDUCES the number of codified crimes you can be extradited for, from over 45 down to 37.

What is accurate?

Yes, perhaps mainland China could exert influence over the independent court or counsel and create bargaining chips.

Yes, perhaps many of the protestors don't know the existing and proposed flowchart of how deportations work. Perhaps many do and feel compelled to broadcast their ideological stance.

This is primarily an ideological issue, this is more about the principle itself. The people of Hong Kong want the representatives that they are skeptical of already to know that merely creating the avenue for deportation to China is an ideological line not to cross.

immichaelwang• 7 years ago

More and more people are going to flee to Singapore.

Anyone know what the tech scene there is like?

ulfw• 7 years ago

Oh that's a great idea. From a one-party state to another one-party state. Though of course those two can't be compared, I admit.

The Tech scene in Singapore, to answer your question, is about 10x what it is in Hong Kong. The big two are Grab and SEA though, which might not be for everyone. Tons of startups and a sizeable Google office (among others) as well.

komali23• 7 years ago

Try Taiwan or Vietnam - well, Vietnam another one party state, but a burgeoning tech scene and HUGE population of like-minded hackers.

Taiwan is Taiwan: democratic version of China. I've sung its praises too much here, but it is a superior alternative to those looking to involve their business in the Mandarin speaking world.

Bakary• 7 years ago

It's a one party state whose entire raison d'être is to be economically competitive, so I wouldn't worry.

zeristor3• 7 years ago

This is one way to commemorate Tiananmen Square protest’s 30th anniversary

multibit• 7 years ago

Massacre. It wasn't just a protest. Hundreds were gunned down and their bodies squished by tanks.

adinobro7• 7 years ago

Be aware that the famous "tank man" was not actually run over. You can see the rest of the video if you look online.

The CIA files have also been leaked which provides more information about that happened that day. As always the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. Not as bad as the western media says it was but worse than the Chinese government admits.

I always find it weird that no one seems to care about the Nanjing massacre which was much bigger or that Tulsa massacre which most Americans seem to be unaware of...

_ptgt3• 7 years ago

Can anyone close to the situation share the best way to support the protesters from outside of Hong Kong?

Leary3• 7 years ago

Buy products from Hong Kong protesters, while boycotting products from those who support the Hong Kong government.

DyslexicAtheist• 7 years ago

in order of effectiveness:

1) don't buy Chinese goods.

2) share news like this and other examples about how China treats dissidents on channels like LinkedIn which are frequented by Chinese and those doing business with China pretending it's all good.

3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)

4) if you're in the loop and aware of such things then call out those Western politicians pandering to Chinese bureaucrats (I'm aware of infrastructure projects in SE Europe and Africa where plenty of dark money flows ... hello Croatia Tourism board, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro ...)

eatbitseveryday• 7 years ago

3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)

Here's my concern already. I have in-laws that live in China. I have a Chinese visa, and need to travel to China for work sometimes.

Won't doing this jeopardize me in some way? I'd be happy to participate if only I knew I'd never return to the country or had no ties there.

rchaud• 7 years ago

Make the sacrifice of ethical consumption. Refuse to support companies that are in the business of selling technology, weapons and other tools of subjugation to the party or allies of the party.

digianarchist2• 7 years ago

They should sell yellow umbrellas and t-shirts. I would buy one.

hu33• 7 years ago

Sorry but this is not why I read Hacker News.

When I want this kind of content I open reddit.

ct0• 7 years ago

I did not see this on reddit, so thank you HN

hu33• 7 years ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/

screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/q0bx2Uy.png

You're welcome.

enraged_camel2• 7 years ago

If you feel something doesn't belong on the site, please use the flagging feature.

Going into the comments and posting that you don't think something belongs on the site rarely leads to a productive conversation.

lxrbst• 7 years ago

I can't flag content, for some reason. Maybe I'm not active enough on this site.

hu33• 7 years ago

You're right. I tried to delete my message but the option wasn't there.

AnimalMuppet• 7 years ago

There's a huge variety of stories here, from Hong Kong protests to category theory. You could just skip over the ones you aren't interested in...

zeristor3• 7 years ago

Since this has been declared a riot, and that a riot is punishable with up to 10 years in prison, and the legislation their protesting about is about extraditing people with more than a seven year sentence...

It’s coming to the point where they’ve got nothing to lose.

zeristor3• 7 years ago

How is this being reported in mainland China?

If it starts to spark copycat riots there things could escalate.

anewguy9000• 7 years ago

i suspect its not being reported at all.

mzs• 7 years ago

If this first-hand account from a person on twitter[0] is to be believed, it isn't.

This is a reply to a thread of photos from a WSJ journo on the ground from a few hours ago. The photos are interesting in themselves.

0: https://twitter.com/mbspinks/status/1138728407464796160

baybal22• 7 years ago

How is this being reported in mainland China?

Nohow, at least in newspapers. Though, I see a lot of curious people checking out events on their phones. Most look at it with some bemusement.

fma• 7 years ago

That's the beauty of state controlled media and the Great Firewall of China. It doesn't get reported much, and the parts that are is only the pro-Beijing opinion. To appear to provide an unbiased opinion, they will quote pro-Beijing Hong Kong news sources.

larrysalibra5• 7 years ago

This is how it's being reported if it's reported at all: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2019-06/10/content_37...

kevin_b_er2• 7 years ago

It is probably being suppressed from news and public discussion.

loup-vaillant3• 7 years ago

(pw;dr) Well, that doesn't sound too bad, right? Here in France we have our tear gas and our rubber bullets too. All complete with torn hands and lost eyes.

Wait a minute, that doesn't sound too good after all…

utbabya3• 7 years ago

Do they hit a girl like that? https://www.facebook.com/105259197447/posts/1015774028165244...

loup-vaillant3• 7 years ago

Don't know about girls specifically, but I recall having seen images of something like 4-5 cops hitting one protestor in a similar manner.

Our police force is significantly more violent than the German one, and I think the English one as well.

spacehunt10• 7 years ago

Firing rubber bullets at an unarmed guy's head, spraying pepper sprays down the stairs into a metro station behind people's backs...

Can we find something else to compete with? ...

larrysalibra5• 7 years ago

Does anyone from Twitter reading know why (or when) China, Hong Kong and Taiwan were removed as location options for trending news in Twitter?

https://twitter.com/LeoAW/status/1138718391978536960

Hong Kong Police Fire Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets at Protesters

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