Microsoft hints at new modern Windows OS with ‘invisible’ background updates

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/29/18643857/microsoft-windows-lite-modern-operating-system-computex-2019-hints

by Tomte • 7 years ago

56 94 7 years ago

vikramkr• 7 years ago

If this is just windows done better that's interesting, if this is another chromium style stripped down OS I'm not sure how to feel about that - as long as it wouldn't impact main windows that's fine but gaming is a pretty important use case for windows, and hopefully a stripped down OS without strong support for computers that can do things like run more demanding software locally wouldn't become their flagship. For other use cases, thisbis definitely instep forward, chromebooks are great for people not familiar with technology who just want something that works, and not needing to fiddle around with updates will be a boon.

fredley2• 7 years ago

"Thin" OSs like ChromeOS, that basically provide web browsing in a safe, lightweight environment are great for some users who literally just want to browse the web and read email.

There's an interesting avenue for Microsoft to provide a ChromeOS-like experience, but with built in O365. This would cover the use cases of easily 95%+ of computer users (web+email+office).

That just leaves (simplifying a little) gamers, specialists (e.g. video+graphics editing), legacy enterprise app users and developers who need anything more.

inlined• 7 years ago

>This would cover the use cases of easily 95%+ of computer users (web+email+office).

I suspect if that were the case then Windows RT wouldn’t have been canned. I’m wondering what’s different now that makes this idea better. Marketing?

duxup6• 7 years ago

My Chromebook (Chromebook Plus) reboots for updates so it isn't like that necessarily gets you anything as far as updates either.

vorpalhex• 7 years ago

Given Microsofts track record with buggy windows updates, 'invisible background updates' is the last thing I want from them...

kawsper• 7 years ago

And they will probably A/B test them as well, and roll them out in different paces, so you'd no clue what you're running and what changed.

naikrovek5• 7 years ago

It is unbelievable how many people here complain about needing reboots on Windows AND who go on to complain about a rumor that maybe reboots won't be needed in the future on some unknown OS made by Microsoft.

I guess some folks just want to complain.

naasking3• 7 years ago

I can't believe restarts are still a thing. We knew how to build OSes that can avoid this over 30 years ago. Many people claim that the Windows NT kernel is a pseudo microkernel, so it's probably all the user land cruft that's accumulated over the years. Hopefully they can clean that up and achieve true always-on functionality.

dijit4• 7 years ago

The accumulation of random bit flips on consumer gear is going to bring the thing into a weird buggy state or kill it eventually anyway.

There’s no appetite for selling consumers ECC memory either.

naasking3• 7 years ago

Random bit flips is a much longer time frame than we're currently seeing. Also, any services should be restartable at any time, so the only random bit flips that should matter are those in the kernel itself. The kernel data should be significantly smaller and so less likely to have a bit flipped.

If uptime and availability become a serious concern, then a partitioned system in which kernel data is in ECC memory while the remainder runs on cheaper non-ECC memory is possible as well.

kevin_b_er• 7 years ago

Its regularly astounding how few windows updates don't require a restart when most of my linux ones never do. The two filesystems act quite differently for locks, I know, but it is still a pain on windows.

I don't know how they'll get magic transparent updates when their model is to always require restarts.

UI_at_80x24• 7 years ago

I don't know how they'll get magic transparent updates when their model is to always require restarts.

When the only thing stored locally is $HOME and everything runs on clusters on MS servers you will never know when the 'back end' reboots. The 'Future' is the same as the past but with updates.

You are (your smartphone) and will be running a dumb-terminal. Instead of one computer you are now using a very-large-cluster of servers. Each time you boot-up 'Your instance' may be a unique VM that gets spun-up in micro-seconds. When it's time for an update the patches can get all pushed out to the VM's and when you reconnect (i.e. wake from sleep-mode) you are now connected to an 'updated' VM with all the hard work happening on the backend.

This very of the future is really fucking COOL, and terrifying. It also pretty damn doable.

sh-run• 7 years ago

Interestingly, linux has ksplice despite being monolithic. To be fair I've never used it and I understand that it's fairly limited in what all can be patched without a reboot.

fulafel• 7 years ago

And you hear stories about people being very afraid to reboot 30 year old mainframes / minis, so when moving buildings they are kept powered on, connected to ups...

Reboots are good because they test that your OS still works and you can make observations about which update broke what. They should be fast and painless though.

nailer• 7 years ago

Vox blogspam. This is the original URL:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2019/05/28/enabling-innovat...

mfatica• 7 years ago

Can they make all the other shitty "features" invisible? Like the abhorrent start menu and all the other "modern" crap they've added? I want my Windows XP style UI back without 100,000 processes running fuck-knows-what in the background

thrower1233• 7 years ago

Classic Shell is still invaluable. It gives you a start menu where you can actually search for things that are in the start menu, and it will find them, which is a huge improvement on the default experience.

RenRav• 7 years ago

If you just gave users some actual control over updates it wouldn't be as big of a pain.

duxup6• 7 years ago

I feel like I have a lot of control over it. Am I missing something?

woodrowbarlow2• 7 years ago

on windows 10 home edition?

try installing security updates only. try denying a specific update. try freezing you installation at a specific build number. try running a machine unattended for a month without it rebooting. and next time you update, check your settings. chances are good that something, somewhere, got silently reset to defaults.

the only option for personal windows 10 installations (i.e. non-enterprise) is to blacklist the windows update service. and with each update, you have to find a new way of blacklisting the service. the settings allow for some changes -- you can defer certain types of updates for up to one month -- but eventually microsoft _will_ push new updates to your device and they _will_, if needed, reboot your PC.

stevenwoo• 7 years ago

I have Windows 10 Pro on a laptop and still have to use 3rd party software to control how much bandwidth all of the update mechanisms in Windows Update use or nothing else will get updates/stream (or flat out function), folks with higher bandwidth or corporate internet access will not feel this kind of pain.

norswap• 7 years ago

I hope it won't have two different and overlaping control panels this time.

ubercow13• 7 years ago

Or 5+ types of context menu [0]

[0] https://i.imgur.com/rHRD1Xa.png

swah• 7 years ago

I still miss Windows when working on Linux though..

NeedMoreTea• 7 years ago

No, there'll be a fresh new one. Just like there was last time. So there'll be 3 overlapping systems.

floki999• 7 years ago

Microsoft has zero respect for its users. Windows is now a layered cake of CPU-hogging crap.

nathanaldensr• 7 years ago

This is just incorrect. Windows as an OS is amazingly stable considering how many devices it supports and how backward-compatible it is. Windows as an ecosystem less-so, but I mainly fault crappy drivers written by budget commodity hardware manufacturers like Realtek and Conexant. Windows is not a "CPU hog" either; install Windows fresh with only the manufacturers' drivers installed and you'll be running at 0% of CPU unless a background task like Windows Update is running.

0815test• 7 years ago

Linux as an OS is a lot more backwards-compatible than Windows (including having better backwards-compatibility support for Windows software, via Wine, than Windows itself!), and runs usably on a wider range of (x86-like) hardware. It tends to fail altogether only on low-quality hardware that, even on Windows, is only ever supported via the crappy OEM drivers you mention.

...Also, nice trick statement at the end - Windows Update is always running!

vanilla_nut• 7 years ago

unless a background task like Windows Update is running.

That is his point. Even on the VM I run on my macbook for work, there is always a background task running. Windows Defender, Windows Update, a bunch of incoherently named things... the list goes on.

pssflops• 7 years ago

The worst of both worlds. You wake up the next day after automatic updates are pushed to your machine and your harddisk has been wiped clean and the first news article you find is that Microsoft is rolling back the update for anyone that hasn't received it yet because they don't have a QA department for this kind of thing any more.

steve1977• 7 years ago

Can MS make the ugly Windows 10 UI invisible as well with those updates? If so, I'd be interested.

plg• 7 years ago

sounds like they want something new to compete with ChromeOS

maxxxxx12• 7 years ago

My company runs a medical device on windows. We have to control configuration tightly. Windows 10 is already out of control but they seem to be hell bent on making it worse. Time to jump ship I always tell management but the MS reps are very good at selling to execs.

duxup6• 7 years ago

I wonder what the balance between keeping devices updated on a medical device, and keeping them from updating is?

That doesn't sound easy, although it also seems like an odd choice for an OS for a medical device.

maxxxxx12• 7 years ago

The medical device is basically a WPF app. There are a lot of similar ones on the market. The whole effort got started during windows XP time and back then windows made sense. Now with windows 10 you spend a lot of effort locking down features you never wanted and are hard to get rid of. At this point I would much prefer to go iOS, web or Linux. They all have their downsides and upsides but windows is becoming pretty developer unfriendly. Just getting a quote for licenses is a six month ordeal with multiple meetings and contradictory information from MS. They make it hard to give them money.

delfinom2• 7 years ago

Your company should be using Windows 10 Enterprise that gives you full control including update management? In fact, you should be using WSUS to control updates regardless if its Windows 10 Enterprise or even Pro.

Silhouette7• 7 years ago

What if their company is a dentist and they just want a stable system to run their X-ray machine?

Not all businesses want or need enterprise-level IT management, and there are alternatives to having a full-time professional sysadmin that do not involve being the stereotype dumb user who forgets to apply security updates.

ThrowawayR23• 7 years ago

Their company should be using Windows 10 IoT (the successor to Windows Embedded), which allows a lot more things to be turned off than the desktop or even server Windows editions.

rando444• 7 years ago

Use WSUS, ensure your policies and network are set for clients to only update from your own update server.

Test and approve any updates you want to release.

Also in your case it would also be worthwhile to look into whether you shouldn't be using the LTSB branch of Windows.

maxxxxx12• 7 years ago

We do all of that. It’s still a big mess that’s very hard to control.

tinus_hn• 7 years ago

And pray your users never click the ‘download updates from Microsoft’ link you can’t remove.

BuckRogers3• 7 years ago

Any reason you're not using LTSC on a medical device? It doesn't sound like MS is at fault for anything here, it sounds like you're using the wrong SKU. As far as I know, medical devices and such are one of the use cases for LTSC.

maxxxxx12• 7 years ago

We do use LTSC (against strong advice from our MS rep who pushed semi annual). It’s still a pain to deal with.

naikrovek5• 7 years ago

I always see you comment negatively when Microsoft is mentioned. You also make comments that clearly indicate your Windows experience is not practical (meaning you maybe read about Windows minutiae far more often that you actually experience or understand them) and those comments COMPLETELY undermine your effort to bad-mouth Windows.

This article (which you clearly didn't read) makes no mention of this change happening to Windows 10, but a ChromeOS-like "Windows Lite" instead, and if you are capable of controlling Windows "tightly" then you would definitely know how updates can be managed in appliances or devices that run a version of Windows designed for those use cases.

maxxxxx12• 7 years ago

Do you have direct experience with that use case? I have been doing Windows development for a long time and since around 2010 I have become increasingly frustrated with their constant changes of direction. They can do great stuff if they set their minds to it (see SQL server for example or maybe MVC) but in my view the desktop development experience has worsened a lot in the last years . In addition my company has a lot of legacy stuff so we can’t just switch to their shiny new tools every few years.

sandworm101• 7 years ago

A "new modern Windows OS"??

s// I thought new versions of windows were a thing of the past. Aren't we now just all supposed to be on "windows" with everything forward of today being an update rather than a new OS? We aren't supposed to talk of any sort of "new modern windows OS". This should be described as a potential future update, not a new OS, because there will never be a new 'version' of windows. //s

Silhouette7• 7 years ago

Maybe it's just the presentation, but to me this reads like a big push to dumb down what's left of personal computing to the level of tiny mobile apps and simplistic web/cloud software. There's a great irony that just as everyone finally has seriously powerful computing hardware sitting in their pocket, the industry seems to be moving away from powerful creative software and programming tools that could make use of it.

If we're destined to become mindless, media-fed automatons, I at least want my self-driving flying car in return.

delfinom2• 7 years ago

It's a marketing piece full of fluff. No different than people making flying cars of the future back in the 70s.

tracker12• 7 years ago

Didn't they already do this with RT?

xaduha• 7 years ago

All I know is that I'm staying on LTSB for as long as possible.

Microsoft hints at new modern Windows OS with ‘invisible’ background updates

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