Tesla's Screen Saga Shows Why Automotive Grade Matters

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters

by tomohawk • 7 years ago

246 184 7 years ago

I used to work on MyFord Touch at Microsoft and this was a constant discussion. "Why do we have such terrible touchscreens, when Tesla has such great ones?"

I think Tesla made the right decision because while it's certainly costing them a lot of money to deal with, the screens in most cars (especially back then) were so bad that it probably would have been worse for their brand.

dominicl• 7 years ago

The swing of the article "Look we told you so" really rubs me the wrong way. But it seems to represent the view of a large part of the Automotive industry. Instead of driving innovation forward, they shy away of the problems that introducing such innovation could have. Instead it seems the industry relies on shaming innovators for the issues of first generation future tech. This reminds me a lot of Steve Ballmer mocking the first iPhone: https://youtu.be/eywi0h_Y5_U

The most likely outcome is that they will figure it out, and much earlier than any of their competitors.

kevin_thibedeau• 7 years ago

Buying off the shelf parts is not innovation. Especially when they are not suited to purpose and you ignore the vendor's own reliability figures.

mannykannot2• 7 years ago

Reading between the lines, I think some of the owners who have the problem are really rubbed the wrong way by Tesla's decision to stop replacing broken units.

reitzensteinm• 7 years ago

Tesla made a bold trade off and it was a clear win - until they stopped replacing the failing units.

But now the "good will" repairs are over, the smug attitude of the article is more or less deserved.

mrpopo• 7 years ago

I would prefer innovation to be driven by durability and usability standards, rather than huge, bright, addictive LCD touchscreens.

cmsonger• 7 years ago

The most likely outcome is that they will figure it out, and much earlier than any of their competitors.

Disagree. The most likely outcome is that many folks who paid a lot of money for a car end up with a car with a screen that's flawed in some way. (I own an S that has the yellow box.)

It is also possible Tesla "figures it out" earlier than their competitors; but that's less likely as the former is now a certainty.

bcatanzaro• 7 years ago

I have one of these yellow screens on my Model S. Tesla told me twice over the past 3 months they would be replacing it under warranty very soon. I'm disappointed to hear they're walking this back.

toomuchtodo3• 7 years ago

I also have a Model S with this occurring on my v2 MCU. I was told by a service tech they were collecting VINs, and would have a fix available this year. I opted out of arbitration when I took delivery of the vehicle, so I intend to sue in small claims court to have it replaced if Tesla does not perform the repair as a warranty claim. Waiting for a fix I'm fine with. Being stuck with it in a $100k car that is less than a year old I am not.

symmitchry• 7 years ago

Honest question: I'm surprised at such a hard stance against what I perceive to be an "early adopter" product. Did you not feel that buying a Tesla was a gamble?

vtail• 7 years ago

Could you please share tips on how you opted out of arbitration? I’m waiting for my M3 to be delivered, and would like to understand the pros and cons. I’m in CA, US if that matters.

pcarmichael• 7 years ago

Mine was replaced under warranty last week (after waiting several months) - 2017 Model S, AP 2.0.

breakingcups• 7 years ago

If they've committed to replacing the screens you can hold them to that, no?

akozak2• 7 years ago

What's the argument against just relying on "cabin overheat protection" to keep the climate in spec? Seems like that would solve a lot of their supply chain limitations at once with relatively minimal battery drain - though it does seem wasteful to spend energy keeping electronics comfy in the sun.

whymsicalburito• 7 years ago

I would expect to be able to leave my car in a parking lot for a week or two (unplugged) and still be able to drive away when I return. I feel like with overheat protection the battery would be dead by the time I got back.

toomuchtodo3• 7 years ago

Overheat protection deactivates when the battery pack reaches 20% state of charge. EVs are a bit of a different model; whenever parking for long periods, I endeavor to find a lot that lets me plug in, even if it's 120V 15A (which is enough to keep the cabin cool and the battery somewhat conditioned, although not enough to charge if both of the previously mentioned activities are occurring). Haven't had an airport or long term parking lot yet I could not find an approved outlet or EV charger for my use, but YMMV.

@leggomylibro: To reply to your deleted comment, you asked if the vehicle needed 1800W to keep itself conditioned but not maintain state of charge. It's closer to 1440W, as a 15A 120V circuit is derated to 12A (80%) for continuous duty cycle. Coolant pumps can be power hungry!

@akozak: I believe it is Tesla specific. I am unaware of the feature being present on other EVs.

gwern• 7 years ago

That, and 'overheat protection' apparently doesn't work...

mannykannot2• 7 years ago

I have a different issue with the "cabin overheat protection": claiming that it is to "protect dogs and children" when, even if working as intended, it could allow a car to reach a temperature dangerous to children, is highly irresponsible -- even if Tesla also said that you should constantly monitor the temperature to ensure that it is safe. There's no justification for this sort of dissembling.

village-idiot2• 7 years ago

Not only does it seem to be very unethical, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a wrongful death lawsuit eventually.

mrob• 7 years ago

From the article:

Tesla appeared to mostly fix this problem with its "cabin overheat protection" feature (which it sold as being to protect dogs and children, despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down)

But as the linked explanation says, +40C is the internal temperature which becomes dangerous. This is not the same as the dangerous air temperature. Humans both produce heat by metabolism, and remove heat by sweating. Danger is a function of temperature, humidity, duration of exposure, hydration, clothing, general health, etc. and although I don't know exactly what is safe for children, I point out that a great many people live in climates where air temperature routinely exceeds 40C for several hours at a time.

manicdee3• 7 years ago

Cabin Overheat Protection is separate to Dog Mode.

If you want to express outrage about abdication of responsibility at least be talking about the relevant feature.

Cabin overheat protection is there to protect things left in the car like electronics, and theoretically requires no user interaction.

Dog Mode allows the user to dial up the desired temperature and then walk away. This is the actual dangerous feature, because the belief is that the air conditioner will keep the temperature at the level you want it. This despite a history of at least one police dog dying every month in the USA due to equipment failures, and theirs dog cars have specially modified environmental controls to maintain and monitor the temperature, including opening windows as a last ditch temperature control effort. Even those systems fail sometimes.

And here is Tesla setting people up for failure using a single air conditioner that is monitored remotely using an internet connection that is flakier than filo pastry.

miahi• 7 years ago

That's a hidden price (in charging and range) that you have to pay because Tesla did not use proper screens. And it only works when the charge is >20%, so you have to plan ahead if you want to leave the car in the sun at around that charge.

It's probably sold as a feature "you'll find your car comfy when you go back", or even "your children will be fine even if you're a horrible parent" and doesn't say anywhere "disabling this feature may cause the screen we provided to melt in the sun, and we don't provide a replacement, as maybe next we'll have a way to fix it". And I don't think the limitation is supply chain, it's just that they want to keep the costs low for the technical debt.

Rebelgecko3• 7 years ago

SpaceX has had similar issues with using industrial grade parts in situations where their competitors typically use aerospace grade ones [1]. Although in their case the failures are a bit more visually spectacular than some yellow stripes [2]

[1] https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/public_...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuNymhcTtSQ&t=3m

Dylan168076• 7 years ago

They did a whole batch of testing and a bunch of those struts failed at similarly abysmal fractions of rated load. Is that really "industrial grade"?

icegreentea2• 7 years ago

I mean, that was part of NASA's investigation conclusions. The design error wasn't using an industrially rated part, it was using it without proper screening, testing, and failure to follow manufacturer recommended safety margin.

One of the purposes of using the "right rated" parts is that you get to off-load some of the testing and screening that you might otherwise wish to do to a component vendor (who is better equipped to absorb the price of testing, and because they have tighter integration with manufacturing, a better ability to achieve specifications).

Like I totally get the idea of using lower cost components. But sometimes they are actually the solution. And sometimes finding the problem is incredibly expensive, if not in $$$, then at least in PR.

Americans love to shit on gold plating, but they also love to shit on greedy corporations minimizing the bottom line.

Rebelgecko3• 7 years ago

The manufacturer suggested a load factor of 4x. Most industries probably don't subject their hunks of stainless steel to temperatures of -300°F. Cast parts also have a tendency to be more brittle when exposed to certain types of forces.

taneq3• 7 years ago

No, that's "a bad batch."

The issue here (as a sibling post points out) is QA.

dingo_bat• 7 years ago

I think traditional car manufacturers just don't advance the state of the art in screens and other in other in-car electronics at a pace fast enough. They are content with shitty 7 inch screens with faded colors, since their supplier told them this is the best that can be done. You need someone like tesla to force screen suppliers to catch up to the best screens, do the required testing and make the best screens capable of withstanding heat and shock. It's the same with the concept of an electric car and the concept of self driving.

netsharc4• 7 years ago

Ah yes, forced modernization, and the users are the beta testers of all this.

Sorry to all the yellow screen owners who won't get them replaced, and RIP that dude that crashed into the concrete barrier.

hoseja• 7 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...

thrower123• 7 years ago

A car with any kind of touchscreen for anything but non-essential functions is a huge red flag for me. Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me.

I think it is incredibly unsafe that things like heat and radio controls have been shifted to non-tactile touch inputs, rather than analog buttons and knobs. But I am an old fogey that keeps at least one hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road.

CarVac• 7 years ago

That's what steering wheel controls are for.

ddingus2• 7 years ago

Maybe. Depends on how modal they are.

The primary issue with touch is the difficulty many people have using it by feel, and or "muscle memory" alone. Typically, one needs to identify the UX element desired, then touch, and then often verify the thing happened or select after that.

Where it is modal, another whole layer of that interaction is needed, and or driver needs to retain more state info. "Which screen is it on, and is it currently available for me to use?"

Steering wheel controls can be better, but many of those do toggle through various modes and the driver needs to glance at a small screen in the dash cluster.

Doing that is generally superior to a touch only UX though.

On many cars, low importance functions are clumped into these kinds of UX. Higher order things get their own control.

I drive a lot of different cars. New, old, and Tesla.

I thought the Tesla was spiffy, but did not think much of the big touch panel for reasons I have given here.

My very favorite drives are on cars with great controls, and all of it working with dim interior lighting. Just enough to see what needs to be seen, the rest easily operated in a tactile way, night vision intact.

This is not to say touch is not useful in cars.

I think it can be and is.

This is to say touch has a very long way to go before it begins to seriously challenge well designed buttons, levers and switches.

romwell• 7 years ago

Because of the mandate for backup cameras, and the dash space that the display for those takes up, I think I'm going to have to stick to pre-2018 model years for as long as they let me.

At least Toyota Avalons do it in a smart way: the display for the back-up camera is embedded in the rear-view mirror. You can only see it when you are backing up.

Marsymars2• 7 years ago

Agreed - I have Raynaud syndrome, which is fortunately entirely manageable by keeping my core temp up, and wearing warm mittens when it's cold: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/ski-gloves/super...

Any control in my car that I can't operate while wearing those mitts is essentially useless to me.

neya• 7 years ago

The first time I discovered automotive grade was when I was designing my own in-car infotainment system using a HTML based interface, a few years ago. It worked really, really well for a long time. And then, summer came, I got the magic smoke from my unit. Turns out, the amplifier IC died. But, I did more research as amplifiers were actually supposed to heat up and I had cooling fans in place. What killed it wasn't the heat, but the sudden variations in temperature - Eg. when you use A/C for a while and leave your car in the hot sun. The manufacturer literally recommended to use the automotive grade version of the IC for in-car usage. Silly me.

In the end, I never really got to finish the project because of the rabbit hole it became.

But remember, I'm a hobbyist. I have an electronics background, but that's about it. To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding. I mean, I like Musk and the work he's doing, but this doesn't seem right (just a personal opinion). I hope the customers don't have to bear this for Tesla's mistake.

TAForObvReasons• 7 years ago

"Move fast and break things" works for software you deploy on your infrastructure since you can always make changes quickly at very little cost. Website 5 pixels off? Make a CSS change and roll it out to your systems.

To execute the same thing with hardware credibly, you have to accept the idea of a mass recall and replacement of faulty parts. That works for many companies like Anker, which goes out of their way and proactively replaces parts.

You can't apply the software deployment model and be nonchalant and brusque when customer issues arise. The combination just serves to turn off the masses.

colechristensen2• 7 years ago

I would assume it's because there is little cross-pollination between modern tech workers and automotive focused engineers. It explains why most cars' user-facing electronics are so terrible and why Tesla made such an obvious quality mistake.

dymk• 7 years ago

This seems different than Tesla simply overlooking a quality requirement because of a lack of communication.

This is the top of the top, Musk himself, saying "screw that quality requirement, this is good enough", and plowing forward regardless (and having it bite them later).

Who knows how many other components they were able to cut corners with for now. And how many will start to fail in the coming years.

yason• 7 years ago

I got the impression that much of developing Teslas was doing things nobody dared to do before, and the screen probably wasn't the only non-standard thing Musk had to extract from the industry with bare hands, even if the industry was telling Tesla not to. There wouldn't necessarily be a Tesla if all they ever chose to pick was standard automotive grade parts from stock.

devy3• 7 years ago

To see a huge gigantic company of this size and reputation pursue this kind of mistake that has real impact on paying customers is astounding.

It's a conscious decision, probably due to cost/production volume concerns. Musk had pulled this kind of tricks before with lithium-ion batteries before (remember the early Tesla fires?), they were initially using consumer grade laptop batteries (with a highly energy density/weight ratio at the time but more prone to fire and explosion comparing to other manufacturer's automotive grade lithium-ion battery chemistry, granted Tesla might have improved.)

And honestly, the cost of automotive thermal grade 2 certified central display for 17-inch TFT screen was probably (still is I suspect) cost-prohibitive for a low margin auto industry.

What's really astounding to me is the "cabin overheat protection" feature. As the article pointed out, what this really is Tesla trying to prevent the non-automotive grade screen from failing, even though it's touting for protecting dogs and children at extremely hot summer days. It regulates the cabin temperature at +40C, but that's the temperature children's organ will start failing.

jacobush• 7 years ago

Wow, that's horrible. Very dark.

londons_explore4• 7 years ago

A child can survive longer than an adult at high temperatures, as long as they have access to water.

40C is very survivable. Lots of places on earth regularly hit 40C

privateSFacct• 7 years ago

I used to work summers in the Caribbean - organs failing at 104 is a pretty much total lie

mgw• 7 years ago

What's really astounding to me is the "cabin overheat protection" feature. As the article pointed out, what this really is Tesla trying to prevent the non-automotive grade screen from failing, even though it's touting for protecting dogs and children at extremely hot summer days. It regulates the cabin temperature at +40C, but that's the temperature children's organ will start failing.

While the article seems well researched and very informative otherwise, 40C is the internal body temperature at which a child's organs will start failing.

The internal air temperature of the car (regulated to 40C in this case) will of course have an effect on the passenger but does not necessarily lead to them reaching a body temperature equivalent to the ambient air because the body possesses cooling mechanisms.

40C still seems problematic for children though. Quoting https://www.uptodate.com/contents/heat-stroke-in-children:

Evaporation is the principal mechanism of heat loss in a hot environment, but this becomes ineffective above a relative humidity of 75 percent. The other major methods of heat dissipation; radiation (emission of infrared electromagnetic energy), conduction (direct transfer of heat to an adjacent, cooler object), and convection (direct transfer of heat to convective air currents); cannot efficiently transfer heat when environmental temperature exceeds skin temperature (typically 35°C or 95°F).

jackpeterfletch• 7 years ago

'Cabin Overheat Protection' does kind of make me feel like they've lost sight of what EVs and the Tesla are all about.

The planet is warming up because we cant provide enough clean energy to feed demand.

I can't help but feel that having everyone's car air-condition themselves when not in use, so that you have a screen large enough to play space invaders, electric or not, is really bringing us closer to solving that.

posterboy• 7 years ago

Sound like those temperature differences could cause condensation to short the device. How is that usually prevented?

Asking probably because my desktop pc went out with a bang last night, waking me up. It's probably the accumulated dust that killed it. You'd need all terminals and wires with potential isolated from air, no?

ddingus2• 7 years ago

Conformal coatings are your friend.

That desktop, had it been coated, would probably still be working, assuming the dust did not trigger thermal trouble.

londons_explore4• 7 years ago

Temperature differences cause materials to crack, which is the main failure cause.

It's amazingly hard to design electronics to survive thousands of cycles of 100C thermal cycles.

crististm• 7 years ago

A loud "bang" is probably from main supply capacitors. Dust matters but unless it is very conductive it won't affect low voltage circuits very much.

ody4242• 7 years ago

'automotive grade' my *ass

Opel Ampera (~Chevy Volt) has a plastic ball race in the electric motor, that fails at ~ every 100k km. The US market had a metal ball bearing initially, the EU market always had a plastic one. GM/Opel saved like 1$ on this ball bearing, but it costs the owner hundreds to replace it every couple of years, as it takes hours to replace it. This is a major drivetrain issue IMO, and it was not handled by a recall (at least not in Europe)

The same car has a steering lock with the cheapest carbon-brush motor that you can get, that wears out over a couple of years. When it fails, the car is not driveable, and you have to replace the whole steering lock. Again, no recall by GM/Opel.

These things are not built to last, the design goal is to be as cheap as possible.

jcfrei• 7 years ago

Great article. These appear to be the exact kind of engineering lessons you would expect a new company like Tesla to learn the hard way. And it explains why incumbent car manufacturers might seem less innovative on the surface.

femto1132• 7 years ago

I've long wished for a "slot your iPad in here" solution for this sort of thing. Sure it might not stand up to automotive grade punishment, but you can remove it when leaving the car in the sun and if it breaks it is easy to replace and much cheaper than custom parts (thanks to Apple's economies of scale).

noelsusman• 7 years ago

I wonder if iPads could hold up to all that vibration.

qball2• 7 years ago

To be fair, they technically already do when you take it with yours with you somewhere.

As long as the mounting plate is sufficiently isolated from the rest of the car's movement, they shouldn't need to suffer any vibration in excess of what they'd endure under normal use and transport conditions.

Of course, it's still a better situation for consumers: if the iPad does die, you can replace it that same day with an off the shelf part (or you plug your phone in for that day instead), it's trivially expensive compared to what head units of similar type cost (it's actually even cheaper if you can use a bargain-basement 50-dollar Android tablet instead of an iPad), and it's something that you can upgrade as you get the money to do so.

Plus, it also heavily discourages manufacturers from pulling a Tesla and refusing to start your car before you update the infotainment software, which is also a shockingly anti-consumer trend.

jstandard• 7 years ago

I've worked on "Bring Your Own Device" concepts together with Honda.[1] There are plenty of wins for consumers in this type of setup.

Automakers have taken notice that people are using their phones for an increasing share of infotainment functions.

The tough, time-consuming parts are working through the supply chain to build out the connectivity and "happy coexistence" of phone and car. Also, I've yet to find a UX which blends physical, voice, and touchscreen controls while accounting for their strengths, weaknesses, and learnability. Tesla included.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnMwI6SGAOg

femto1132• 7 years ago

Cool! That's pretty much exactly what I'm imagining, except tablet sized instead of phone sized.

fergie• 7 years ago

Agreed. I'm a big fan of the cradle/clamp thing on the VW e-up- it's supposed to be a "cost saving" feature, but I think it actually works better than most centrally mounted built-in systems.

olig15• 7 years ago

My girlfriend has a VW Up! and I think the cradle idea is brilliant. It’s not as good as the new Polo setup, but changing music/sat nav is so much better on an iPhone than it would be on a cheap integrated system.

m_mueller• 7 years ago

The only car I've seen it in is VW Up. Too small for my needs.

modeless• 7 years ago

This person has taken the wrong lesson from the story. The actual moral of this story is that the auto industry is too conservative and being a little less conservative allows you to build one of the best cars in the world.

So a few touchscreens have yellow lines. The Tesla touchscreen is still clearly better than any other car's touchscreen and if they'd done it this guy's way they wouldn't have been able to ship it at all because the part simply wasn't available then.

chipotle_coyote2• 7 years ago

Sorry, but if you're going to design a car that replaces not just the infotainment system, not just the climate controls, but the entire instrument console with a touchscreen, then it would seem to me one of the places you absolutely do not want to cut corners on is...the touchscreen.

"One of the best cars in the world" is obviously subjective, and there are some ways in which Tesla is absolutely leading. But all of the innovation on display in Teslas don't earn them a free pass on build quality issues.

zaroth3• 7 years ago

Is it fair to say they “cut corners”? They bought the best screen available at the time at size they wanted, and then tested it in-house. It’s not like the screen has terrible specs, but it is not rated to operate at 130°C.

So they tried adding software to keep the cabin below 50°C even when the car is parked, but either it doesn’t work all the time or people turn the feature off, of someone is parked in the sun long enough to run the battery below 20%.

The trade off was a higher rate of warranty repairs in order to build the car they wanted to build.

I think in the case of the Model 3, partially how they solved it is through special glass they used above the front seats. I’ve been wondering why the glass is so unique above the front seats but not the same tint for the rest of the roof glass. It’s very interesting — water droplets on the glass above the front seats look almost blood red. Now I’m guessing it’s filtering to block IR or other solar gain which might otherwise burn out the screen.

https://images.app.goo.gl/DBaQeKoWkWTGYqk76

castratikron• 7 years ago

Apparently these Teslas log to the eMMC so much that after a few years the part wears out. The screen goes black and the car falls back into limp mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-7b1waoj9Q

sschueller2• 7 years ago

I saw that as well and I find that scarry. Something so basic that should never happen. I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day.

qball2• 7 years ago

I wonder what else was ignored or mismanaged and might kill someone one day.

https://i.redd.it/kv4y1j3gjut21.jpg

This WILL kill someone. It's not a question of if, it's a question of when, and it's intentional.

Maybe the people responsible for that decision will see the inside of a jail cell, or maybe they won't- but the fact of the matter is that the presence of this "feature" is negligence at best, much like this case where bricking your car when something unrelated to its core functionality dies.

netsharc4• 7 years ago

Makes me think of Macs/iPhones failing to boot if the device date is set to 1970...

catchmeifyoucan2• 7 years ago

I think this is fine if the failure to success ratio is low for the parts. Especially given that the failure here refers to failing pixels and doesn't compromise safety.

Some quick math, if an industrial part costs $10, and an automotive part costs $20, then for ten cars you save $100. Assuming that 20% of all your cars are faulty, that's a $80 savings translation. With the remaining money, you could spend $40 on R&D for a screen at the same price point with higher reliability and still come out on top. However, at some point, you will reach a time where the number of replacements that don't justify the design. For a bootstrapped company, I don't think it's a bad bet, but it is time critical to find an alternative before they start losing money.

vel0city• 7 years ago

While this might be true, you then possibly have a very noisy 20% previous customer base who may or may not buy your car again, and if noisy enough might convince others your designs are shoddy and are not worth the premium price tag you're trying to sell them for. Brands are not worth nothing.

catchmeifyoucan2• 7 years ago

Agreed, that this may not be a win for brand loyalty.

int_19h3• 7 years ago

This may have been a reasonable argument if they considered it to fall under warranty, and replace it for free when it fails.

ec1096852• 7 years ago

The Tesla Model S we've had since 2015 hasn't had any problems with its screen, despite being driven in California. This article's conclusion was strange. Without that Touch Screen, none of what makes Tesla a Tesla would have been a problem since it would have been controlled with un-upgradeable knobs, switches and buttons.

I agree with the comments here that Tesla should make it right for the customers though.

cma2• 7 years ago

Do you park it in a garage or out in the sun?

ec1096852• 7 years ago

Garage mostly, but not exclusively. I have never worried about this.

int_19h3• 7 years ago

Tesla is not the only car with a touchscreen.

OTOH physical knobs and switches are much easier to operate without looking at them. Which is particularly important in a car.

Marsymars2• 7 years ago

Cars are a tough environment for electronics. Asides from the other examples mentioned in the article, my Ford's monochrome non-touch LCD turns into an illegibly garbled mess in the cold (below -20°C) until the car warms up.

taneq3• 7 years ago

I've seen this same effect a lot when talking about Teslas. Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices, laziness, and general lack of care or professionalism, whereas an identical failure on the part of an established manufacturer is shrugged off as "oh well, sometimes parts fail."

(Take the issue with fires, for instance - Teslas catch fire far less frequently than conventional cars, but every time it happens it's global front-page news.)

netsharc4• 7 years ago

Any failure on their part is instantly chalked up to alleged poor practices

If this article is accurate (let's assume it is, those quotes from Musk will get the lawyers coming so fast if they were false), then it just proved that this actually is the case! Their arrogance that "pah, who needs automotive grade?" has now come back to bite them in the ass...

GeorgeTirebiter• 7 years ago

True. But another Tesla burst into flames in Hong Kong: https://qz.com/1618627/a-parked-tesla-model-s-burst-into-fla...

Parked gas cars don't usually burst into flames.

izacus• 7 years ago

Except that Tesla in this case didn't even attempt to get parts rated for adverse conditions to cut costs so it's really not the same thing.

aitchnyu• 7 years ago

I'm suspicious of touchscreens ever since my phone deleted an icon from Android home screen (a drag and drop IIRC!). Charging the phone from a plug in an Indian train causes continous spurious touches all over.

The_Double• 7 years ago

Toyota Avensis (around 2013 model) infotainment screens have a temperature dependent offset on all touches on the resistive touch screen. When its <10 C, the offset is larger than the screen size making it completely impossible to change audio sources or use navigation.

ajross3• 7 years ago

Read to the final paragraph:

In fairness, other automakers have had issues with touchscreens as well. Just last year, Ford settled a class action lawsuit over a host of problems with its MyFordTouch systems and had previously extended warranty coverage for its SYNC systems. Cadillac had to recently revamp its CUE touchscreen system after numerous issues including "the dreaded spiderweb cracks." But [like, it's totally different for Tesla for reasons not having anything to do with screens or reliability][1]"

Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis. The auto industry hates them so much...

[1] Paraphrased.

emptyfile2• 7 years ago

Basically, screens suck. Everyone's screens break. Apple and Samsung have shipped junk screens too. But Tesla's bad screens are an existential crisis.

All screens suck but only one manufacturer put their entire control panel in the screen... so yeah...

ajross3• 7 years ago

Right, so the whole "...shows why automotive grade matters" is a complete fabrication. All screens suck. The article spends a ton of words on why the particular panel Tesla picked was bad just to take it all back and pull a switcheroo to a design critique instead. In the last paragraph!

That's not honest journalism.

Traster2• 7 years ago

It's disingenuous to take "X has big problems, Y have some problems" and just whitewash it with "Basically the whole alphabet sucks". No, screens are hard and some do a better job than others.

ajross3• 7 years ago

Objectively, a class action settlement and a recall are both clearly worse results for a manufacturer than anything alleged in the article. Who's being disingenuous?

continuational• 7 years ago

Can somebody point to a definition of the word "Saga" that isn't ... related to vikings? I see it more and more and it's confusing me.

culturestate• 7 years ago

What’s confusing? Sagas were long, epic stories and now we use the term colloquially (sometimes hyperbolically) to describe complex events that occur over a long period of time.

sidcool• 7 years ago

Tesla may not be the greatest company ever, but it's certainly not a fraud. I think we should move on from that point if view. The I immense pressure from shorters and fossil fuel lobby should have destroyed Tesla by now. But here they are, surviving. If Tesla were to go bankrupt this year, I would still call it a successful company.

Traster2• 7 years ago

The problem is that there's a massive gulf between fraud and successful company. If Ford put Tesla's display in their latest vehicle people would be going nuts about the fact Ford shipped such an unreliable item. Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners. This is exactly the same attitude the early years of Uber had. They'll certainly get away with cutting these corners in the short term, but in the long term it's dishonest and it's not a sustainable way of doing business.

rcMgD2BwE72F• 7 years ago

Tesla has essentially made the calculation that they can ship a sub-standard product and cut corners

Do you know that almost all (if not all) other auto-manufacturers made the calculation that they better lie to their customers about the emissions coming out of their cars?

Who's really cutting more corners?

kwhitefoot2• 7 years ago

The problem with this article and many others on similar subjects is that there isn't any real information about the prevalence of the problems that they describe. Without that it's pretty much just angry bluster whether they are describing problems in a Tesla or a Mercedes.

Is it one screen in a million that fails or one in ten? There is no way of telling from the article.

dangrossman• 7 years ago

As Tesla has only manufactured 150-200K Model S's to date and the article cites multiple owners, you can definitively say the observed failures are not one in a million.

scarejunba• 7 years ago

...despite the fact that it held the temperature at +40C which is about the temperature where a child's organs will start shutting down...

I've been in hotter places than that as a child and my organs are still functioning. Not that convincing a tale, got to be honest.

ummonk• 7 years ago

That is the internal body temperature at which the organs will start shutting down, but external (e.g. cabin) temperature can obviously go higher without issues. Kind of disingenuous from the author.

greenpresident• 7 years ago

It's a reference to fever temperatures. Internal body temp != ambient air temp.

_ph_2• 7 years ago

If you google the authors name "Edward Niedermeyer", you can find out that he has a history of bad-mouthing Tesla in a long series of blog posts. So I would take any allegations made by him with extreme care.

dchest• 7 years ago

Oh, he's still doing that? Amazing.

https://twitter.com/dchest/status/741198400838860800?s=19

stonogo• 7 years ago

He bad-mouths everyone. He's an analyst, not a cheerleader.

_ph_2• 7 years ago

Which means, that his publications shouldn't be mistaken for journalism.

gnachman• 7 years ago

I called Tesla service in December because of both displays delaminating. They said they’d call me back, which of course they never did. This explains it, I guess.

Animats2• 7 years ago

It's not surprising they had problems with a large screen. Large multilayered sandwiches of different materials have thermal expansion problems. Not everything will expand at the same rate, which means internal stresses as temperature cycles. Large size means the difference in length across the longest dimension will be much larger than for a small device. This breaks bonds and seals.

Solar panels have the same problem, and they have "expansion joints" to deal with it.[1] Hard to do that for one seamless screen.

[1] https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/modules-and-arrays/therm...

EastSmith2• 7 years ago

So Tesla is selling:

- electric vehicles

- long range

- self driving

- big screens

I really wish they or somebody else focus on just the first two parts - long range electric cars. No need for the AI or other fancy stuff.

dgzl• 7 years ago

Do you think that by not giving a large touch-panel display, the car with become more efficient?

EastSmith2• 7 years ago

It will definitely have one less problem as the article points out.

I also have a small touch infotainment screen in my car. Works great for calls, music and navigation - that is all what I need it to do. I have not had a single problem with it for about 4 years.

mcv• 7 years ago

Agreed. Don't try to tackle every problem at once; tackle the most important ones first, do the nice-to-haves later.

Reason0772• 7 years ago

I have an iPhone 6 which once had a third-party screen installed to replace a cracked one.

The replacement screen looked great at first - indistinguishable from the original one.

But over time it has developed exactly the same issue: a yellow band/border/ring around the outside of the screen. I wonder if this is a wider issue within the LCD industry, rather than just being specific to Tesla.

londons_explore4• 7 years ago

Yes, it's an issue with oxygen and moisture sealing the edge of the screen.

The yellowing will happen to all screens eventually, just heat speeds it up a lot.

kkarakk3• 7 years ago

All i know is that now when i see a car without a massive touchscreen in it i end up thinking "really? in 2019? what should i pay 80 grand for a backwards POS?"

now i know why these screens aren't more prevalent but still...tesla's dashboard looks superslick

yitchelle• 7 years ago

I hope that Tesla's attitude to using robust engineering principles does not end up causing large amount of injuries or deaths. It is not just in the cars that they produce, it is also the way their factories are run as well.

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