HackFwd

by _b8r0 • 16 years ago

94 57 16 years ago

bobds• 16 years ago

Giving up 30% of your company seems like a lot to me but I'm sure there will be plenty of takers. The maximum funding you can get in return is fairly high (at least compared to YC):

91,000 euros - single founder

141,000 euros - two founders

191,000 euros - three founders

nivertech• 16 years ago

The formula is:

FundingAmount = €41K + NumFounders * €50K

alain940403• 16 years ago

My concern is that the 30% will be rejected by VCs when doing your first round, and will force you to recapitalize to something more reasonable for the founders. At least that's what good VCs in the US would do, but this being Europe, who knows.

stefanobernardi2• 16 years ago

Disclaimer: I'm a referrer for HackFwd.

I think it's pretty different. - It doesn't have a public application process. You can only be referred by someone in the network. - It doesn't require you to move anywhere. You can work from your home country/city. - It doesn't have a formal 3 month program with mentorship and dinners. It's a 1+ year stunt, with a quarterly weekend retreat where you get to present your achievements and get tons of feedback and mentorship. - It doesn't give you $15-20k for 6%, but instead matches your annual salary with caps at 90k, 140k and 190 if you are a 1, 2 or 3 person team respectively. HackFwd always gets 27% equity, and you are required to give away 3% to advisors/referrers.

It's a new approach to investing, and very very new having launched just 6 months ago.

haasted• 16 years ago

Accidentally hit the downvote arrow, while intending to do the opposite. Apologies.

daniel-cussen• 16 years ago

The 1+ year thing stands out as the best idea there.

jdp23• 16 years ago

Very interesting. It seems to me like this approach responds to some of the points people have made about potential entrepreneurs who don't fit YC's profile.

andreyf2• 16 years ago

I think it's pretty different. - It doesn't have a public application process.

Why is this a good thing?

It doesn't give you $15-20k for 6%, but instead matches your annual salary with caps at 90k, 140k and 190 if you are a 1, 2 or 3 person team respectively.

In NYC, I'd expect three competent software engineers to be making ~400k. That's a 50% salary cut (it's livable, but certainly leaves room for competition). In other parts of the world, this would obviously be different... maybe you should adjust it for cost of living?

HackFwd always gets 27% equity, and you are required to give away 3% to advisors/referrers.

So your valuation of an idea ranges from ~$330k to ~$700k, based only on the number of founders? If the % equity is constant, doesn't that encourage an applicant to always come up with three founders, even if one of them ends up dropping out and not taking any equity?

alexro• 16 years ago

It's also an interesting way to discourage single founders and promote 2-3 people team mentality

stefanobernardi2• 16 years ago

1) I am stating facts. I said it's different. 2) Europe is not NYC and a 40k salary for a software engineer seems to be fair. Your comment makes no sense at all. They are not funding companies in the States, and are adjusting the salaries based on eu countries. 3) That's quite a mindset you have. And the answer is no. Because if I go alone I get 70% and they still fund me, if I go with another founder I get 35% and if I go with two cofounders I get 23%. Plus would you go through all the hassle you just imagined for 50k more and then let everyone see what kind of person you are? Bah.

ig12• 16 years ago

Not really, HackFwd involves a much large investment/equity stake/time period. It's closer to traditional angel than YC.

If you're looking for a European equivalent for YC checkout the following: The Difference Engine, StatupBootcamp and Springboard.

pclark3• 16 years ago

Springboard and The Difference Engine are the same now :)

Seedcamp is another.

ig12• 16 years ago

As far as I'm aware they're both different, Difference Engine founder Jon Bradford is the MD of Springboard, but I believe they're both going to continue independently of each other.

Unless anyones heard differently ?

shafqat• 16 years ago

Seedcamp is probably the closed to YC in Europe.

jlees3• 16 years ago

Seedcamp (of late, at least) aims at a much more mature company/idea than YC does. Although there are exceptions.

Vojto• 16 years ago

I heard about them in September, unfortunately you can't just apply you need to know somebody in their network.

bizerda• 16 years ago

You don't need to know someone in the network, you need to get to know someone in the network if you don't.

atirip2• 16 years ago

There's at least 2 things one should consider:

- it's tranched deal - they get 27% up front(!) and invest, in 4 tranches. Some think that's A Very Bad Thing for the founders: http://cdixon.org/2009/08/15/the-problem-with-tranched-vc-in... and http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2009/08/milestone-based-investing.ht...

- after Series A funding the founders are usually guaranteed to be minority stakeholders. Think about that twice.

But, at least they are open about that.

ccarpenterg• 16 years ago

You get to keep 70% equity. You give 3% to your advisors. We take 27%.

What do they actually offer?

troels• 16 years ago

A years salary, it seems.

timelinex• 16 years ago

Which varies from individual to individual. This program seems to favor a more mature Hacker.

axod• 16 years ago

"We take 27%"

Ouch.

delano2• 16 years ago

First time founders that are considering funding should be more concerned about the people involved, the terms, and the impact on operations than the specific amount of equity.

Edit: for clarification, care about equity, sure, but whether you're giving away 10%, 20%, 30% of your company is much less important in the beginning than the other things I mention.

gyardley• 16 years ago

This is true, but only to a point, and only when compared with a founder's other alternatives.

Seed-stage fundraising has never favored the entrepreneur more. In this climate, founders can get a higher valuation for their company from a high-quality set of angels, so 'ouch' seems pretty appropriate to me.

mkramlich2• 16 years ago

... of what could have $0 value. And we'll pay you!

shrug :)

jkent• 16 years ago

There is a European equivalent to YC. It's YC. (maybe)

frisco2• 16 years ago

> Will you help us set up something like Y Combinator in our country?

> Actually, the seed funding business [is] international.

From the YC FAQ.

kayoone4• 16 years ago

I am the founder of a HackFwd backed Company, but we just started this month. Of course its not cheap for founders with a good prototype, but the landscape in Europe is very different from the US. You dont have a lot of Angel Investing in Europe and VCs often only start at 500K EURs...so they are really filling a gap here, which is pre-seed/seed funding. Besides the money you get to know some of europes best and most successfull entrepreneurs who might make finding a Series A funding much easier as if you were on your own. You could also view it as a very special 1 year program in entrepreneurship because they teach you alot of things. We are really happy and look forward to the ride!

Our project wouldnt be able to take off with the money Y-Comb provides because its just too complex for that, heck we even invested twice that amount of our own money before getting HackFwd funding. If you have a pretty simple product and can show its potential with 20k$ and score a Series A, then YComb is probably a better fit but moving to the US from Europe for 20k$ wasnt an option for us anyway.

If you get accepted you will also be a referrer for the program, that way they want to built a big network of passionate founders/entrepreneurs in the future. Sharing knowledge is a big part of that and founders can say "Thank you" to anyone in the HackFwd network with the 3% equity reserved for that. You can also view most of their great talks at the quarterly events at http://www.passionmeetsmomentum.com

pclark3• 16 years ago

what is your startup?

kayoone4• 16 years ago

its Reign of Steel

robbschiller• 16 years ago

I think the most important point there is that the European start-up environment is just simply very different that the U.S. that's something I don't totally understand being a U.S. citizen and not having traveled much in Europe but makes complete sense in looking at the difference in structures.

danielsiders2• 16 years ago

A friend of mine just signed on as one of their referrers. It seems like a cushy big VC. They fly the referrers out to expensive resorts a few times a year and in exchange the referrers give HF a heads up on all the cool people and projects they know about. The goal seems to be providing a framework for people who wouldn't otherwise do a startup. I can't leave my family, I need a salary, I'm just afraid, I'm not motivated enough.

Whereas YC and the US scene is all about entrepreneurship, Europe (in general--there are lots of great startups there but it's no SF Bay) has more trouble getting hackers to take the plunge. HF seems to take the approach that they'll take a huge equity stake in the idea rather than a specific company and then pay you for a year to develop it. It's not clear that you'd have to do a real startup, they might just get someone else to do that once you've built substantial IP. I think the goal is to basically bring all the people who MIGHT produce something of value into one place, pay them like employees, and be a European Google in the sense that they'll try lots of projects and the ones that succeed will pay for the others.

It's not a program I'd ever be interested in, but I'm not European or afraid of risks, and I applied to YC. It may work really well in that culture, should be interesting to check back in a year or so to see how they're doing

kayoone4• 16 years ago

i wouldnt generalize it like that. It doesnt really matter to them if you have a startup already or still a job and a prototype. The important part is that you have already built something to show and are passionate about it. They also form regular companies and they dont tell you how to spend your money or anything like that. They have very good financial advisers that develop a budget with you upfront and then its the job of the CEO of that startup to make it work. The companies are real startups, they just help you alot setting everything up, but in a very transparent way.

And in regards to "they fund people who MIGHT produce something that is successfull"...isnt that how any VC or Investing company works ? Even YC works like that, its just that their risk and money involvement is much smaller.

danielsiders2• 16 years ago

My primary objection is that they seem to be focused on acquisition of nascent talent and ideas in an attempt to corner the market on potential startup developers without a clear plan about what to do with them. The amount of money and perks going out to everyone involved both lessens the pressure to succeed and suggests a focus on acquisition instead of development. Of course everyone's there to make money and successful ventures support others but it seems like advisors are filling the roles of VC partners without appropriate remuneration and founders are being treated like employees. I don't like the value relationships all around, it doesn't seem like they help build successful companies, just cherry pick ideas and products in exchange for a salary. That doesn't seem good for the European tech economy or those who would otherwise become real founders on their own. It seems like they're trying to do an even earlier stage acquisition than companies like google have moved into, but without offering the future google does. Again, it might work there, but it's not something I'd want to be a part of or what I'd like to see long term in Europe. If it's a stopgap measure to keep talent there and in a few years a stronger community exists to help startups develop, then that's great.

rmoriz• 16 years ago

any success stories yet?

alain940403• 16 years ago

At least in France, where I help organize the Founder Institute, we have plenty of angels, who will invest as little as 25K€.

The difference with the US is that culturally, money and success is not as accepted as in Silicon Valley, so angels tend to hide. They don't put themselves up front and center as much as in Silicon Valley, but they are around to be found.

mcxx2• 16 years ago

Will the angles invest pre-seed/seed money? Will they invest in teams not in France?

mcxx2• 16 years ago

Why the downvote? I'm just asking questions I'm genuinely interested in.

alain940403• 16 years ago

The ones I know will invest very early, before you have a finished prototype.

Since I was talking about France specifically, they tend to invest in France only (the fancy ones invest in France and US). But I'm sure other European countries have similar angels.

jonathanbriggs• 16 years ago

I am another (UK based referrer) and I was attracted to the model which seems innovative. It will not suit everyone but for those who have an idea and want both funding and support it seems like an interesting approach.

All of the referrers are on the look out for projects but also welcome contact from those with the right sorts of ideas at the right stages of development.

jlees3• 16 years ago

How did you become a referrer? Is there any benefit to being one (other than the warm glow of watching an awesome company get funded)?

LarsHinrichs• 16 years ago

Thanks all for this fruitful discussion, making this a top story on hackernews. Europe is very different to the US, we wanted to create an secure environment to help geeks to start their own companies. Compared to the US, in europe investment in super early tech is very rare.

Please judge us by our output, we are committed to create with HackFwd a new way of starting tech companies in europe.

Please check out our companies: http://hackfwd.com/companies or see who is involved: http://hackfwd.com/map Or take a look at our investment contract: http://bit.ly/hfcontract

Prezzer2• 16 years ago

Hi all, I'm the founder of the first UK company to be invited onto HackFWD and speaking for myself and my two co-founders I can safely say we're absolutely delighted to be on board. Since our first contact with David, the "Talent Geek" we've been treated absolutely fantastically and have been humbled by the level of support received. The join process was very straight forward, fast and informal, which allowed us to remain entirely focussed on developing our product without the worry of jumping through hoops X Factor style.

Reading the comments here and previous comments from other articles, it seems that most people consider 27% equity to be too large a chunk to give away. Of course everyone will have different opinions on this, but our reaction was positive. We felt that the larger equity stake would encourage the investor to really support our growth, rather than looking for a quick flip in a few months time. We're working hard to build a really awesome product here with long term goals and so the opportunity to have 12 months of support from some of the most respected tech people this side of the Atlantic was a no brainer.

Had we not taken the investment and continued to bootstrap, our project may never have gotten off the ground - juggling client work which always took priority made it almost impossible to get any focus. Our logic implied that 73% of a multi million pound company supported by hugely experienced technology and business strategists was a whole lot better than 100% of a half baked idea and ongoing client hassle. Now, we're entirely focussed on building something awesome and that feels great every day.

To be honest, I think that the people who come on here talking about the money, aren't really true entrepreneurs anyway. I know I'm one, and I know for sure that money is way down on my priority list. We just want to build something awesome and HackFWD is giving us a wonderful opportunity to do that.

In my opinion, anyone with a great startup idea and a passion to match should definitely start hunting down HackFWD referrers and I say that with absolute sincerity.

atirip2• 16 years ago

Really? My experience with David, the "Talent Geek" was the exact opposite. I recommend avoiding him when dealing with hackfwd.

fedd2• 16 years ago

looks like HackFwd encourages companies to make posts here

Prezzer2• 16 years ago

not at all. I'm simply giving credit where it's due.

edanm• 16 years ago

Does anyone know if HackFwd is planning on working with Israeli startups? From the looks of their site, it seems they don't currently have any Israeli operations.

afaict• 16 years ago

Based on my actual salary? Why not just a fixed amount for everyone? Seems unfair to those who have already reduced their income to a minimum to get started.

jlees3• 16 years ago

Presumably because it's not aimed at those people so much as fledgling entrepreneurs in steady jobs afraid to take that risk.

frisco2• 16 years ago

Unrelated to the content of the site, the design is beautiful. Does anyone know who's the designer behind it?

Jun8• 16 years ago

OK, maybe I'm biased against Europeans, I don't know the landscape, etc. etc. But just compare and contrast their web page with YC's. YC's is succinct, to the point and no-nonsense. It carries the air of someone who doesn't have to prove anything.

A look at this website, though turns you off, with the wannabe photos and titles like X Geek. And trying to get 27% by pushing around the tired notion of "Europe is different" in this age and time, where bootstrapping is so common and many incubators like YC are multinational? That's insane. Wasn't there a post from a YC applicant from Greece on HN just a couple of days ago?

I'm originally from Europe and looking at examples like this makes me really pessimistic. Instead of hiding behind "it's different" excuses, the founders should have made "We're gonna be 10x better than YC" their motto.

And one last thing: Just as all free Google services funnel users to their search where they make money, YC has HN as the breeding ground of ideas and startups. Everybody knows that this is what makes YC so successful. You probably should try to start a similar environment.

mkramlich2• 16 years ago

Actually I'd be impressed if they were just 1x better. But in Europe. That alone would be full of win.

HackFwd

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