Microsoft furious at $2,000 bounty for open source Kinect drivers

http://www.techeye.net/software/microsoft-furious-at-2000-bounty-for-open-source-kinect-drivers

by bensummers • 16 years ago

164 123 16 years ago

rhizome• 16 years ago

It's shady for TechEye to quote CNET without linking to the article that contains Microsoft's response.

orangecat2• 16 years ago

"Microsoft does not condone the modification of its products," a Microsoft spokesperson told CNET. "With Kinect, Microsoft built in numerous hardware and software safeguards designed to reduce the chances of product tampering. Microsoft will continue to make advances in these types of safeguards and work closely with law enforcement and product safety groups to keep Kinect tamper-resistant."

That's exactly what I would say if I actually did want a bunch of hackers trying to create drivers for other platforms.

markkanof• 16 years ago

This also seems like a strange thing to emphasize. Instead of pointing to the advances in motion tracking that Microsoft made to create Kinect they choose to emphasize the advances in DRM that they have made to prevent people from doing interesting things with their product.

jrockway3• 16 years ago

I think this is because they sell the hardware at a loss, and have to make it up through legitimate game sales. Statements like the above are to keep the shareholders happy with a pretty bad business model. ("We give the actual hardware away, but then rape developers and users with per-game fees. We go out of business if someone breaks the DRM, but that can't happen because we're Microsoft and our DRM is unbreakable.")

oiuyftgrghjk• 16 years ago

"work closely with law enforcement"

If they do they are going to be on the wrong side of the bars.

Article 6 of the EU convention on software prohibits anything which stops you reverse engineering hardware or software for interoperability.

X-Istence• 16 years ago

DMCA allows reverse engineering for interoperability or when it is for education.

enjo• 16 years ago

It's funny, because having hackers get open control of Kinect would probably be the very best thing to ever happen to it.

From what I can tell Kinect is a seriously cool piece of technology without a problem to solve. Every review has been the same "it's pretty neat, but the launch titles are a bewildering array of uninteresting crap" (paraphrased of course).

Hackers are a group that are just uncanny at finding creative uses for hardware like this. Hell, I'd attribute much of the iPhone's success to those early hackers who built apps long before any official SDK was available. They pushed things in all sorts of creative directions. Apple undoubtedly learned a lot from that...Kinect needs the same.

nodata• 16 years ago

Isn't that a good reason Microsoft doesn't want this to work? It will show open source as good.

mkramlich3• 16 years ago

Of course, once I buy that product, it becomes my product. My possession. My asset. And I would condone modification of my product.

wccrawford• 16 years ago

That's one of the few projects that I'd be willing to contribute personal funds to see done... If done well enough. That's the trick.

tptacek25• 16 years ago

They're "furious"? I don't get that. What I get is "If necessary, we're going to outspend Limor by roughly two orders of magnitude on this problem alone"; based on the caliber of people MSFT has ready access to, I'd put my chips on Microsoft in this arms race.

cryptoz• 16 years ago

No corporation has ever shut out the hackers. In every machine ever built, if hackers want to control it they will. Especially if they're allowed to take the machine home.

What makes you think this case is any different? Microsoft can't keep Office or Windows under wraps, nor the XBOX, nor anything else.

The hackers will win, as always.

chadgeidel• 16 years ago

As with much security "win" is relative. If Microsoft can keep the hackers at bay until their next console release (or, perhaps the subsequent release) they will have essentially "won".

tptacek25• 16 years ago

Patently false. For one example: DirecTV shut out the off-the-shelf smartcard hackers.

You're falling into a narrative trap. It's not actually "hackers vs. Microsoft". Microsoft pays some of the best in the world. Most examples of hackers beating companies involve companies that did not invest seriously in countermeasures. That's not a problem Microsoft has.

teh• 16 years ago

As someone who as sunk considerable amounts of time into PS3 hacking I can say that sony do a pretty good job. Not initially, but their current firmware (3.5) is pretty closed.

DannoHung2• 16 years ago

This is all because they want o put Kinect into Windows and mobile as a competitive advantage agains other desktop and phone platforms. Xbox is to make consumers familiar with it

tptacek25• 16 years ago

Sounds like a reasonable business move to me. Businesses should be able to develop competitive advantages.

caf3• 16 years ago

So it's a "Reverse Apple". Apple sold much hardware on the basis of their software's appeal (going to lengths to prevent people running OS X on generic hardware); Microsoft wants to sell software on the basis of their hardware's appeal (so they need to prevent people using their hardware with other software).

makuro• 16 years ago

$2,000 seems low, really. The people who would be intrigued in this situation are doing it for the challenge and the glory. Two thousand would be an OK cherry on top, but if you really want to sweeten the deal, I bet with a Kickstarter you could get ten times that amount.

jiaaro• 16 years ago

but with kickstarted we all have to give somebody the money BEFORE they figure it out.

With a bounty you don't hand it over until it works

Raphael• 16 years ago

It could be a form of escrow. The person fundraising would have to be someone people trust.

rapind2• 16 years ago

IMO MS could offer $10,000 to any developer who delivers the exact same thing to them only giving MS complete ownerhip over the code. That would entice anyone working on it to go for the bigger bucks and give them legal recourse if the same code appeared as opensource.

Of course that could start a bidding war, and draw more attention, and no doubt encourage more hackers... so actually never mind, probably a really bad idea.

burgerbrain• 16 years ago

The type of people who normally do this sort of stuff do it for free. The sort of people who do this kind of stuff because of the publicity being generated have the tendancy to not even do it for free, but to refuse any prize money offered to them. A large portion of bug bounties paid out to people who find bugs are gifted to the EFF for example.

A 10k bounty to not release this might stop a few people from doing so, but all it takes is for a single individual to say "fuck it, I have a steady job and a nice place to live, giving MS the finger is worth more than just a measily 10k to me", and it's game over. Once that single person releases their work microsoft has paid out (no doubt numerous times) 10k for absolutely nothing.

b3b0p• 16 years ago

Bragging rights.

Being able to put this down on your resume could possibly overshadow any possible lump sum that would be offered. Long term, this is possibly chump change if you factor in what it could do for you career wise long term.

Also, I wouldn't be doing this for the money and I doubt many would. You do it because you want to, it's fun, hacking on things like this is just plain enjoyable.

v21• 16 years ago

It's from Adafruit: they aren't rich. And yeah: the people breaking it aren't doing it for the cash. But the cash is a nice trophy.

dinedal• 16 years ago

Nintendo didn't say or do anything, and now everyone and their brother can hook up a Wiimote to a computer and use it without issue. It doesn't seem to have negatively impacted them at all.

I'm curious as to why MS thinks that this is going to hurt them.

ahi• 16 years ago

The Kinect hardware might be a loss leader for Microsoft licensed software.

sh1mmer2• 16 years ago

That's also probably true of Nintendo. I doubt the hardware has anywhere close to the revenue margins of the games themselves, or licensing games.

I think the real point in the original comment was that "serious" business is unlikely to build products competing with 360 on other platforms based on an open source driver for Kinect. E.g. Activision are extremely unlikely to build video games for PC based that require a Kinect.

While there might be a small cost to Microsoft in selling a few Kinect bundles to hackers who don't have, and therefore buy games for, XBox 360 in the grand scheme of things it's hardly a threat to Mircosoft's new business model and this is just the standard corporate answer to anyone tampering with their products.

Splines• 16 years ago

It's rumored that it costs $150 for Microsoft to make a Kinect.

http://www.develop-online.net/news/35198/Source-pins-Kinect-...

tibbon• 16 years ago

Even if so, unless someone comes out with a fantastic hack that goes completely mainstream- the potential damage is low. Most people who buy one will also buy the games.

andywood• 16 years ago

What's ironic is that Microsoft recruited a high-profile Wii hacker to work on Kinect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/johnny-chung-lee-joins-pr...

dzlobin• 16 years ago

If I'm not mistaken he was already a microsoft research engineer

th0ma5• 16 years ago

he also pioneered perhaps projection mapping

tuacker• 16 years ago

I can't recall where or when I read it, but there was some talk that Kinect might also be used in an office setting. Microsoft may well be thinking about it and having an open source driver going around might cut into their plans they could have for Kinect.

Edit:

Kinect is part of Microsoft’s continuing quest to bring to market natural user interface (NUI) technologies, like touch, voice and gesture-recognition. Maybe it’s also part of a grand plan to force users to continue to exercise (even if that just means by waving a hand) while being increasingly tied to our PCs?

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-kinect-for-gam...

jonhendry• 16 years ago

You'd still have to buy the Kinect. And, I'd think, having useful Kinect-compatible software from other sources increases the value offered by the device, compared with what it would be if only Microsoft's software used it.

someone_here• 16 years ago

I just can't see myself flapping my arms to lower a projector or jumping up and down to mute a microphone.

funkdobiest• 16 years ago

I think most should be upset over the fact that MS is implying that law enforcement will be kicking in the door of whoever wins this bounty.

tptacek25• 16 years ago

I agree, up to the point where someone might try to start a business on Kinect reversing. It was hamhanded for MSFT's spokesperson to invoke law enforcement.

CamperBob6• 16 years ago

Almost sounds like a deliberate troll, doesn't it?

caf3• 16 years ago

How would this be any different to a business based on selling unauthorised printer cartridges/refills? (Serious, not rhetorical, question!)

(All under the assumption that making unauthorised use of the Kinect does not require copying a work that Microsoft owns the copyright to, of course).

heliodor• 16 years ago

Adafruit Industries should start a fundraising campaign on kickstarter.com or a similar site and aim for the kind of run-away success that Diaspora had in their fundraising efforts. More publicity, more money, more developers ... angrier Microsoft!

kellysutton• 16 years ago

It will be curious to see what unlocking the drivers for the Kinect will actually do. If there's no semblance of an API from the device, it might just be giving you back raw data. With the Wiimote, that's more manageable since you're only dealing with 3 axes. With a crazy point cloud, it could be tough to infer anything from the data. I think I read somewhere that the Kinect handles a lot of this on its own though...

Leynos• 16 years ago

The bounty is for RGB video with per-pixel depth information.

"To demonstrate the driver you must also write an application with one window showing video (640 x 480) and one window showing depth."

tlrobinson• 16 years ago

I predict the Streisand effect will kick in right about now.

oziumjinx2• 16 years ago

I could see it now:

Porn industry adapts open source Kinect drivers into new, immersible adult entertainment experience. Act in one of your favorite movies and get "intimate" with your favorite porn stars.

Psyonic2• 16 years ago

Dirty minds think alike, apparently. I proposed this very thing to my friend yesterday. He just got a Kinect and I was joking with him about the potential this has for the porn industry.

oziumjinx2• 16 years ago

I did initially get downvoted but I think the implications for that adult entertainment industry with Kinect are huge.

As some may know, the POV (point of view) genre in adult entertainment is a huge segment. Being able to act in the movies and dictate the positions and movements of the actor would be a big marketing driver

sz• 16 years ago

Where can I pledge money for the cause? I'd up the bounty myself if I could.

eli• 16 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Microsoft is correct in suggesting any Americans who participate in this might actually be breaking federal law, right?

joeld42• 16 years ago

How much of what Kinect does is done in hardware, and how much of the vision solve is done in software? the "drivers" might be a huge undertaking if it just gives you the raw input from the cameras.

uxp2• 16 years ago

If my understanding of the device is marginally accurate, I understand it offloads almost all of the processing to the 360. So, I would imagine the raw data coming out of it is like getting raw input from 64 mice at the same time. If anything is done directly on the device, it is probably "stabilization", like muting the background and focusing on a central moving object, but actual tracking and number crunching is done off of it.

Here's a video of a guy looking at his room with IR goggles. This observation makes me think that there is a Lot of data to be crunched to get an accurate use of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nRKU0nFxA

pippy• 16 years ago

Taking the device away from games may be the best thing for it. It could have great applications for medical research and physiotherapy.

On the gaming application side, it's just a glorified Eye Toy. If you've played it, you know how foolish you feel playing it.

teilo• 16 years ago

"Modification of its products" "Product tampering"

So if I write a linux device driver for a USB mouse with a proprietary interface, I am "tampering" with the mouse and "modifying" it?

This is a human interface device. I highly doubt that even the DCMA could kick in on it, since it is not used for recording, storing, or displaying content of any kind (but I could be wrong). How, then, does Microsoft have the right to say what can and cannot be done with a piece of hardware that I rightfully purchased?

Whether the Kinect is a loss leader is irrelevant. Once I buy the thing, I own it, and I can do whatever I want to with it.

lwhi• 16 years ago

I don't own an Xbox, but if I can connect Kinect to my linux box, I'll buy one.

trotsky• 16 years ago

The bounty is nothing but a PR stunt - they might as well offer $50k, it's very unlikely anyone will ever claim it. The XBOX 360 and their official(ly licensed) peripherals are protected by TPM style infineon chips that do cryptographically secure mutual authentication and protocol encryption (as needed). These chips are very tamper resistant, requiring a state sponsored level of sophistication to physically remove private keys that are never exposed outside of the chip dye. Or an exposure of the original microsoft signing keys for the xbox project which are undoubtedly closely controlled and are never required to be exposed to 3rd party developers (except, perhaps, infineon).

The exposure of such keys or a process to avoid the use of them would be of significantly more value to software bootleggers, unlicensed peripheral manufacturers and homebrew folks than any amount of money this open source group is likely to offer. And they'd be requiring a fully functional driver for a set of complex hardware with no documentation on top of the cryptographic attack. Nobody on earth would do all that work to claim that bounty. Not to mention, defeating the protections would surely fall under the DMCA circumvention rules, meaning revealing the coders identity would open them up to significant legal risk.

While it's fun blame microsoft for their behavior, it should be noted that this kind of peripheral protection is becoming significantly more common. Among others, I'm under the impression that this style of on chip cryptographic protections drives the new class of "made for iPhone" officially licensed bluetooth enabled gadgets and certain other "made for iPhone" hardware. I'm unsure if they use as tamper proof a solution, but the intent is the same.

Microsoft furious at $2,000 bounty for open source Kinect drivers

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