China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-social-credit-system-flight-booking-blacklisted-beijing-points-a8646316.html

by apatters • 8 years ago

306 245 8 years ago

independent.co.uk

SubiculumCode• 8 years ago

US and China are not equivalent

garyclarke27• 8 years ago

Horrific predicted tech enabled dystopia now in China. Where next? what if airlines taxis and hotels shared ratings, would the west be so different? I hate Uber Airbnb pestering me for a rating every trip and the fact that I am rated as well. I don’t know or care what my rating is, but my wife does, she was upset recently by an Airbnb landlord in Belgrade, she gave us a bad rating because we had not deep cleaned the place?? The apartment was awful and we had to leave at 5.OO am and the lift didn’t work, last thing on my mind was hovering, no hotel would expect such, but maybe in the future only perfect behaviour will allow one to travel.

baybal22• 8 years ago

Well, nonpersonhood is nothing new to China. Tenth of millions of people in China can't even get an ID because they don't have birth certificates, and without that you can't legally have a bank account, have a phone number, receive education, receive medical care, travel, own property, have family or even immigrate away from China.

And the West has nevertheless kept quiet for long 28 years.

beaconstudios3• 8 years ago

If you want to see non personhood, take a look at how falun gong are treated.

coldtea5• 8 years ago

You make it sound like something Chinese government purposefully did, when in fact, those people were simply never registered by their parents -- to avoid the fee for having a child above quota.

The group was never officially registered on the country’s household registration record system, known as hukou, which is closely linked to a person’s legal identity. That means they didn’t officially exist—until recently. On Friday (March 24), China’s Ministry of Public Security, the government department in charge of hukou registrations, announced that they had helped register the 14 million.

https://qz.com/941240/china-keeps-finding-millions-of-people...

jaclaz2• 8 years ago

... no hotel would expect such ...

Sure, and you and your wife were perfectly free to book a hotel as opposed to an AirBnB (which is NOT a hotel).

iagooar• 8 years ago

I thought Airbnb charges an extra for the final cleaning?

gpvos3• 8 years ago

It depends. I was asked to hoover before leaving too, recently.

glenneroo2• 8 years ago

They do, however most of my recent Airbnbs rentals have started requesting (via attached info email and/or the info-book on premises) to wash the dishes, change/take off the bedding sheets and in a couple cases, to wipe specific areas down. It feels like renters are continually pushing the boundaries of what they can ask of guests/tenants.

sjg0072• 8 years ago

You should have also reported the apartment as being awful to AirBnB.

kbad1000• 8 years ago

Isn't it more like criminals or serious offenders can't fly? Will you allow a person who can possibly hijack the plane?

Majestic121• 8 years ago

No, not necessarily.

As pointed out in another comment : "Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online."

jaclaz2• 8 years ago

No, not necessarily.
As pointed out in another comment : "Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones ...

Well, last time someone lighted a cigarette on a plane ...

https://nypost.com/2018/05/30/plane-makes-emergency-landing-...

shaobo3• 8 years ago

The devil is always in the detail.

The "buying too many video games" line came from the gamification aspect of a social network owned by a private enterprise and has nothing to do with the government scheme. And even they have backpedaled from that claim:

"Hu Tao, Zhima Credit’s general manager, paints a different picture now. She says the app doesn’t monitor social media posts “nor does it attempt to measure qualitative characteristics like character, honesty, or moral value.” Zhima Credit is not a pilot for the social credit system and doesn’t share data with the government without users’ consent, she says."

from https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/03/life-inside-chinas-soci...

And the "posting fake news online" line actually refers to "spreading false information about terrorism" which quite a bit more serious.

sverige• 8 years ago

"Criminals or serious offenders" includes those whose crime was offending the government or other elites by merely saying something that they didn't like. Only a tiny subset of speech should be considered a crime, like yelling fire in a crowded theater.

kylnew• 8 years ago

People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic laws and charge “under-the-table” fees are punished.
Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.

This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each other in contribution to a social credit system that prevents a girl from traveling and being treated kindly by anyone

KnightOfWords• 8 years ago

I had a shock when, the day after seeing that episode, I read a news item about China's proposed social credit system.

johnchristopher4• 8 years ago

That black mirror system is p2p when China's system is centralized. I believe the black mirror system is worse.

PMan74• 8 years ago

The Black Mirror system reminded me more of Uber: drivers doing the utmost to ingratiate themselves to passengers for fear of losing their livelihood through a few bad scores.

Just_Smith6• 8 years ago

Just curious - why do you think a centralized system would be superior to a decentralized system? That would allow the norm to be dictated by the central authority, and not through public consensus.

gadders• 8 years ago

"Fake News" i.e. anything that mentions Tibet, Tiannamen Square, selling Falung Gong organs for transplantation etc.

Shivetya• 8 years ago

soon China will go straight to Larry Niven's The Jigsaw Man [1] where sentences for crimes include forced donation of all organs. this includes traffic offenses and the like.

On a different tact, the US is just as guilty of this with the over the top of punishment of those convicted of sex crimes where you can be publicly embarrassed by law enforcement after you served your time. Where you can be told where you can live and not live or even go. Considering the power it gives over one group of people it is not hard to see how it will expand to other crimes

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jigsaw_Man

nswest23• 8 years ago

holy smokes false equivalencies!

dgudkov• 8 years ago

That episode is called "Nosedive" (season 3, episode 1).

JVIDEL• 8 years ago

IIRC that episode was actually based on sesame credit itself when it was first announced.

ultim8k2• 8 years ago

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

gtirloni• 8 years ago

Where should 1.4bn go? Can they severe family ties that easily? Do they speak another language? Do they have the money for it? And more importantly, do they care that much? I think there are a fair big number of reasons why one wouldn't want to leave their homeland.

NedIsakoff2• 8 years ago

Money and lifestyle.

beaconstudios3• 8 years ago

Probably because the regime doesn't actively affect most people's lives much more than a regular government. It's just people who speak out or act out that get oppressed.

This is just me assuming, but is guess that China is OK for quiet, well behaved unquestioning citizens.

jobigoud4• 8 years ago

The social credit score goes way beyond speaking out. It touches all the minor infractions, speeding tickets, jaywalking, not paying your rent or other debt on time, etc.

mikejb2• 8 years ago

Others ask themselves the same about the US, or Germany, or Russia. It's easy to paint a picture that makes one wonder why anyone would ever stay there. And the answer to why is revealed when you peek behind the canvas that portrays these horrible places.

Tepix• 8 years ago

Germany? It has the best reputation of all countries in the world right now (https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2017/11/22/germany-best-re...).

ElBarto3• 8 years ago

Daily life is no different than in the West. Don't believe all that you see in the media.

ultim8k2• 8 years ago

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

nnq• 8 years ago

I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country

This kind of attitude is why some countries' economies and social systems turn to crap, ya know...

Kiro3• 8 years ago

Not sure you can compare the mess that Greece currently is with the prosperity of living in China (with the drawback of surrendering your privacy).

richardknop3• 8 years ago

Lots of western expats live in China because they have economic opportunities they don’t have access to in their home countries. Says something about the state of western world when so many young people go to China to climb the career ladder. Social mobility in western countries is almost non existent.

C1sc0cat2• 8 years ago

Ah the new FILTH aka Failed in London, Try Hong Kong

AnaniasAnanas6• 8 years ago

And over here in my university in the UK half of the students are Chinese and most of the ones that I talked with plan to continue their studies and careers here and in the US. What you claim goes both ways.

TangoTrotFox4• 8 years ago

You've gotta look at things in perspective. When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime, a very rapidly developing economy with huge potential for all sorts of entrepreneurship, extremely cheap cost of living with heavy subsidies for costs like utilities, and a generally pretty peaceful and pleasant place. Biggest practical problem is fake or knockoff everything from condoms to eggs. Yip fake eggs are really a thing. What you don't get is a place where it'd be a great idea to speak excessively harshly of pretty much anybody in public, or start trying to protest in ways that would disrupt the normal flow of life.

Generally I think it's a great idea to have a diverse and multi-polar world. I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society. And really I can say the exact same of the current system of government in the United States. By having various nations trialing out radically different systems, we can hope to see which is ultimately more effective by measuring varying sorts of results over time - and then learn and improve from our successes and failures.

PavlovsCat4• 8 years ago

I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society.

So if it doesn't implode, that makes it a good idea?

AnaniasAnanas6• 8 years ago

When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime

This is far, far from the truth.

706f6f70• 8 years ago

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China.

There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

skrebbel4• 8 years ago

orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice

I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about them.

They're a splendid list of values to drum up, though, if you're the one whose boot indefinitely stamps on your subordinates' collective faces.

ElBarto3• 8 years ago

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

Kiro3• 8 years ago

They live a good life. The Chinese friends I have are not bothered by this and support their government, however crazy that may seem to us in the West.

arvinsim• 8 years ago

Interesting that there seems many posts that shows China in an unfavorable light lately....

In any case, this is one of the things that you thought you only see in fiction. It's chilling to realize that it's real.

TangoTrotFox4• 8 years ago

It's interesting that this seems so futuristic and dystopic yet in reading about the specifics it seems oddly reminiscent to social systems many centuries past. In particular it seems to effect similar results to what exile would have had at one time. But exile lost any meaning as the world become more globalized and connected -- where you physically are no longer really means anything. This system would enable the consequences of exile, but with national effect.

In a world with a perfectly impartial and objective government, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. The reason it's bad is because governments are made up of people, and people are corrupt. While it may initially be genuinely motivated by helping to improve society, over time it will devolve into a tool for special (and government) interests to incentivize actions that are to their benefit, and punish those against it -- regardless of the objective societal impact of those actions.

walterbell• 8 years ago

similar results to what exile would have had at one time

Can people on the list leave the country?

gnode2• 8 years ago

Yes; China no longer has exit visas. You just might not be able to take the most comfortable form of transport.

The travel ban only seems to apply to domestic flights as far as I can tell.

pelagic_sky• 8 years ago

Last time I had read about this topic the focus was mostly on people who had defaulted on loans. One of the punishments was to have their face/name posted on a billboard publicly shaming them. I wonder if people still didn't pay back the loans, but did public service, if that would improve their score?

b1r6• 8 years ago

Isn't this bad from an economic perspective? I thought the gov't wanted to encourage spending and increase the velocity of their money. This directly hinders that.

farazzz• 8 years ago

Indirectly it could increase spending as they are preventing people from leaving and spending their money overseas

NedIsakoff2• 8 years ago

It will be used to promote good spending: money spend on Chinese goods and services. De-promote bad spending: foreign goods.

ladw• 8 years ago

In this system, is it possible to have a negative balance?

jobigoud4• 8 years ago

I don't know the answer but if there is a floor at 0, that would mean at this point you have nothing to loose, so that could backfire. But you probably get incarcerated before you reach some threshold level.

blbviviv2• 8 years ago

HN has fault habdlers in place for accounts with karma going too far below zero. It was a hellban at -13 for my old account. I did keep writing for weeks before I noticed, the exercise of which was still rewarding in a way, and I still receive few answers now. Sometimes I suspect mods to the visibillity. I reinterpretted rangeban to mean banned beyond a certain range (as opposed to how it is commonly used: the ban of a whole range of possible identities).

blbviviv2• 8 years ago

That's relative, isn't it? Below average is effectively negative for most purposes. Contrary, the Root Mean Square of a sinusoid AC supply can't go negative, for example. Economy (or socio...) is maybe not that simple, but still based on a balance between giving and receiving. What's interesting then is the average of the slope: zero for AC pretty much by definition. While stability is important, growth is too, economically speaking, so the derivative would need to be normalized under an average, so we are back to square one.

That's to say, of course people can be on the decline.

gpvos3• 8 years ago

One of the problems is that this is yet another system that can be corrupted. The rich will be able to buy themselves a high social credit rating, while the poor suffer.

Jyaif• 8 years ago

And how is this different from any society?

gpvos3• 8 years ago

Not very, admittedly. But this system is a huge step in the wrong direction.

miohtama• 8 years ago

While China has a bad record in human rights, I suggest to apply a lot of source criticism what comes to "social credit system." Especially here in Hacker News comments where discussion is generally more intelligent.

Here is more in-depth and fact based article about the topic:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social...

PavlovsCat4• 8 years ago

What facts in the original article does your article correct? Its main point is just that there isn't a single unified ranking, which the OP article doesn't seem to claim.

Kaveren3• 8 years ago

"and the admitted student who was erroneously denied his place at a university due to his father’s failure to pay back a bank loan."

It seems like you can strike "erroneously" from that sentence, since the source it cites doesn't imply it was a mistake at all.

Collective punishment is worth criticizing.

As per usual, when implementing some Orwellian scheme, there will be a crowd that states there's nothing to worry about, and that people are over-reacting, and that it's really not so bad after all.

I wonder what the social credit score of Chinese dissidents will look like.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-affects-...

stefan_• 8 years ago

Chinese cities literally use face recognition to publicly shame jaywalkers with their name on big screens:

https://www.scmp.com/tech/innovation/article/2174564/facial-...

Bad record on human rights doesn't exactly cover it when the full stupidity of that fathoms on you. Jaywalking in itself is a manufactured crime.

rick222• 8 years ago

This argument is nothing new. Always some portion of the people who benefit from the system will support it no matter how evil it is. The condescending comment on Hacker News comments is not going to persuade simply because the premise that "self policing for the government might be good in some cases" is totally wrong.

will_brown9• 8 years ago

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and maybe we should look at our-dystopian-selves in light of outrage at our foreign friends.

Edit: I think here just as there the majority will have “good credit” and actually like having an nearly permenant underclass...so just as here, I don’t think there will be much incentive to change there either.

bitexploder9• 8 years ago

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.

Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. Try to find more than a few instances of legitimate travelers being blocked, which is something you can do with freedom of speech and freedom of press. I think less than 2000 are us citizens. The program in China is going to disenfranchise entire slices of their population and further limit their social mobility.

Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been.

Our systems aren’t perfect, but every first world nation has some system to track your financial behavior and it impacts you negatively if you don’t make your payments. I just don’t see any strong relationship to the oppression in China and what happens in the US. Our systems aren’t perfect and your criticism has merit, but not as a comparison to China on this topic.

adrianN• 8 years ago

I'm sure you could also argue that it's easy to have a good score in China's system. Just be a good citizen.

sailfast7• 8 years ago

We have killed our own citizens. If they are abroad they have been hit without due process in drone strikes. (See Awlaki et al)

No love lost for the man, but labeling something OK because someone is said to be a “terrorist” (when that label has been applied without due process) is the equivalent of avoiding due process which must be afforded to all citizens.

When excepted under narrow circumstances for convenience, you are paving the way to generally ignoring due process.

sjg0072• 8 years ago

The US does kill its citizens. There's a few terrorists who were US citizens when they were killed by drone strikes.

https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

xtian• 8 years ago

Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been.

The parts of this that are comprehensible are either baseless or ill-informed assertions.

robin_reala• 8 years ago

I believe the US still has capital punishment, which absolutely is killing your own citizens.

coldtea5• 8 years ago

Secret kill lists are for terrorits

Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states.

And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...

thatfrenchguy• 8 years ago

The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit.

If you’re rich.

will_brown9• 8 years ago

Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens.

What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen.

Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists.

Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the kill list, because the US Supreme Court said we aren’t entitled to know.

And as to the credit...as I said the majority have good credit and love to think they earned that credit and like the permenant underclass of people who have bad credit can’t get jobs, housing, etc... Trust me the majority of people in China will have good social credit and say the same things as you...it’s easy to have good social credit, it’s not dystopian it’s helpful. History suggests people have a great love for societal hierarchies.

lightedman• 8 years ago

"We don’t kill our own citizens."

Never heard of the MOVE Row House bombing where Philadelphia police literally helicopter-bombed the place and killed 5 children? Waco Massacre where the FBI killed over 20 children?

Where have you been living? Under a rock?

gumby• 8 years ago

Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. ... Secret kill lists are for terrorists

How can you know if they are secret? And it’s pretty cavalier to say “impact a small slice” — it’s a bit deal if you’re part of that small slice, fair or not.

xenomachina• 8 years ago

The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit.

When I first moved to the US it was not possible for me to have any (US) credit. I had good credit in Canada, but that was mostly by accident (I had a credit card that I rarely used -- I didn't really need one in university) and it turns out that Canadian credit doesn't translate into US credit.

sailfast7• 8 years ago

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction.

As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

coldtea5• 8 years ago

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government

So there's also no democratic control on them?

lentil_soup2• 8 years ago

Since they're not controlled by the government then they are controlled by the market, as in, private companies. Not sure that's better, you could argue with a government controlled one you still have "some" rights and due process, with a private one there's not much you can do if they decide to give you a bad rating. I rather have none, to be honest.

ryanmercer3• 8 years ago

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government,

Yet they can prevent you from getting, or keeping, government jobs, prevent you from getting government contracts, prevent you from being able to purchase a home, prevent you from getting student loans...

They aren't as bad but they're still tools of control.

rubyfan4• 8 years ago

The scale, scope and logical extent of these systems are not even comparable.

izacus• 8 years ago

No, the American system reaches and hurts more people, including Europeans and other Asians.

coldtea5• 8 years ago

Yes, for one, one exists for decades, the other is just on paper atm...

lifeformed3• 8 years ago

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion. It's a tool ripe for abuse and political control.

Think of all the gamification bullshit we've dealt with, and realize that it's now going to be deployed on a massive scale to shape the behaviors, incentives, and punishments of the whole populace, wielded by a government known to persecute subsets of it.

And I'm sure it's going to be used for some good. There will be a lot of good results that's come of it, and that will be its selling point. But it undoubtedly will also be used to suppress specific ideas and people. It will be a massively effective too for that. Think of the coded racism used in the Southern Strategy in US politics as explained by Lee Atwater. By abstracting away everything and converting it to whatever statistics you want, you have total plausible deniability over any targeted oppression you want.

will_brown9• 8 years ago

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems.

You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it?

You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. Look at social mobility in this country, pretty sure it’s the lowest of all first world economies, it’s pretty dystopian.

kazagistar2• 8 years ago

They shouldn't be equated exactly, but the difference is one of severity, not of kind. It's important to keep in mind that the western credit system has victims too, and is a tool for behavior control too, just not nearly to the same severity, but should be carefully tracked for fear of scaling up to the exact horror the Chinese one represents, if not worse.

liftbigweights• 8 years ago

While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating.

They are one and the same. The "financial" rating affects where you can live ( try getting an apartment or a mortgage ) and where you work.

Sure it isn't as draconian as the chinese version but it's pervades much of your life.

simonh• 8 years ago

The moment I saw the headline I just knew there’d be a “it’s just as bad over here” post in the thread somewhere. Thanks for not disappointing me. There are different ways to approach this though.

There’s “what China is doing is no big deal, we do it all as well so why are we hypocritically making a fuss?”.

Then there’s “this is appalling and should be condemned absolutely, but let’s be careful here because we’re already exposed to some problems like this ourselves”.

will_brown9• 8 years ago

Well in general yes, these types of articles will have comments for, against and comparative in nature.

Not to burst your bubble, but I don’t think my comment is saying it’s just as bad here, only encouragement to do a comparative analysis of the two systems. Maybe one is worse/better in terms of scale but dystopian systems are dystopian systems notwithstanding the scale.

Anyway you are obviously entitled to your opinion about my comment, but help me understand how you came to the conclusion my comment is “it’s worse here?”

dwild• 8 years ago

The credit system is there to show you can pay your debt. That's important to show that you can pay back a debt, or else why would anyone would let you have debt to them.

You don't need social credit system to prove that you can take a plane. We all can takes a plane, there's no special social skills to takes a plane. This is literally punitive.

Inherently Life already have some kind of social credit system that act like our credit system. That's called reputation, or having contacts, or in slang, street's cred. I can't make a call right now to many celebrities, yet someone with enough reputation, wouldn't have trouble getting in contact with some. In a more realistic context, someone that want to become lawyer NEEDS contacts to make it, that's just the way it is, theses contacts are way, like in our credit system, to prove that you know what you are doing and can do more.

Works does the same with experience.

ryanwaggoner4• 8 years ago

People with bad credit can still get jobs and rent apartments. I rent to tenants with bad credit all the time. It’s just one factor. And I’m guessing that people who are otherwise qualified getting turned down for employment due to bad or no credit is a very rare thing.

Regardless, there’s a world of difference in me considering a rental application with bad credit and the government forbidding me to rent to someone, not because of their prior ability to handle credit responsibly, but because they didn’t follow the political wishes of the government in power. I seriously can’t understand how anyone can compare them with a straight face.

The credit system (and a lot of other things) in the US is a mess, I agree. Howecer, this rampant whataboutism that’s reflexively thrown out when discussing truly horrific human rights abuses against millions or even hundreds of millions is intellectually bankrupt. It makes me worry that too many of us no longer value our freedoms enough to protect them like we should.

tekknik2• 8 years ago

how does your worthiness to repay a loan equate to a social eating system? your statements seem to say that those with a history of an inability to pay loans back should continue to get loans and screw the originator? also which jobs can you not get because of bad credit? i’ve personally never seen or heard of one

mnw21cam• 8 years ago

It could be argued that the primary purpose of a government is to make things better for people (with deliberately broad/vague words used there). I'm not sure how this qualifies. There's certainly a lot of negative language in that article, and negative language has a habit of not making things better for people.

gnode2• 8 years ago

I'm not sure how this qualifies

The idea is that social credit discourages behaviour which is bad for people (e.g. traffic violations and small-scale tax evasion) and that makes things better for people. I think it's easy to see how this could be effective, but the criticism is really about fairness (due-process). Proponents would probably argue that the consequences are relatively small compared to traditional criminal justice (going to jail; execution) so it doesn't matter, and the streamlining of justice outweighs the disadvantages.

tonysdg• 8 years ago

It could be argued that the primary purpose of a government is to make things better for people

As I understand it, this notion only really came into vogue during the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. For much of human history, government served as a way for monarchs, emperors, and the ruling elite to maintain -- and expand -- their hold on power, regardless of what was best for the governed. Indeed, we still see remnants of this in pretty much every government on the planet -- some just are less subtle than others. Arguably, we've spent the last 3 centuries trying to subvert this process and bend it toward, as you put it, making things "better" for all.

ElBarto3• 8 years ago

Beyond the obvious issues and extreme aims stated in the article, such a system is also a new, interesting take on the problem of 'crime and punishment' that might be food for thought.

creep• 8 years ago

This is obviously going to be an unpopular sentiment, but I am somewhat excited to observe the results, and I'm glad this is happening during my time on Earth.

Yes, it is a horrible thought, but in many ways inevitable: if the tech exists, it will be used for both good and evil. Better that other societies can see the outcome sooner rather than later.

jobigoud4• 8 years ago

I felt the same. If it was not for the many lives it will ruin it would be a very interesting experiment to watch. And ponder about the myriad of unintended consequences that will arise. Like the reported false positive of the model on a bus advert being repeatedly charged for jaywalking.

PavlovsCat4• 8 years ago

We will arrive at a moment of sufficent self-alienation where we can contemplate our own destruction [as a species] as in a static spectacle.

-- Walter Benjamin

So we're repeating the Nazis now, gladly, because that's easier than learning from those who made all that effort, saw and went through so much atrocities and suffering, to to learn from that, and to relay that to us, to impress the importance of it on us? I'm so not onboard with that.

We don't know a perfected totalitarian power structure, because it would require the control of the whole planet. But we know enough about the the still preliminary experiments of total organization to realize that the very well possible perfection of this apparatus would get rid of human agency in the sense as we know it.

-- Hannah Arendt

You (like many) are kinda saying yes, it's unpopular and horrible, but "it would happen anyway". Notice how this is exactly the logic of totalitarianism, an abdication of personal responsibility. Saying "I won't fight it because it will happen anyway" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[The method of infallible prediction] is foolproof only after the movements have seized power. Then all debate about the truth or falsity of a totalitarian dictator’s prediction is as weird as arguing with a potential murderer about whether his future victim is dead or alive – since by killing the person in question the murderer can promptly provide proof of the correctness of his statement. The only valid argument under such conditions is promptly to rescue the person whose death is predicted. Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it. The assertion that the Moscow subway is the only one in the world is a lie only so long as the Bolsheviks have not the power to destroy all the others. In other words, the method of infallible prediction, more than any other totalitarian propaganda device, betrays its ultimate goal of world conquest, since only in a world completely under his control could the totalitarian ruler possibly realize all his lies and make true all his prophecies.

-- Hannah Arendt, both quotes from "The Origins of Totalitarianism"

And by the time you find out there's nothing to be glad about because it's just a spiral of control and fear and anti-intellectualism, with abusers and sadists having free pick of the litter, that won't matter anymore. There will be no allies to defeat the Nazis from the outside this time. There might be no "after".

As for societies seeing "outcomes", as you observe "results" (these are people we're talking about here), keep in mind how much of what the Nazis did didn't go to plan. The death camps were supposed to be completely removed from the face of the Earth, just like many villages they razed. If Hitler hadn't started a war, or had limited it, the world still wouldn't know. It's not like we know everything that's going on in China, by a long, long shot. Just like we don't know about the Abu Ghraibs about which we never heard, and so on.

To play with fire to learn about fire, let's leave that in the early 20th century, I beg of you. We have books and other documentation.

PavlovsCat4• 8 years ago

Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Juliate5• 8 years ago

Fools.

We already know.

This is just modern technology applied to things already experimented in history, two of them being: East Germany, until 1989. And USSR before its downfall.

gexla2• 8 years ago

Wow, the top thing on my mind this morning was that the CIA was able to listen in on a phone call from the Saudi head of state.

Now this.

I have already been thinking about the possible necessity of a decentralized personas. If an employer wants to see my office persona, then I don't want those people to see my gaming persona. No reason to connect these things to a central identity.

Decentralized personas are natural in the entertainment world where you take on different characters. Authors might publish under a different name. Now even a Twitter bot with a crap AI can be a popular persona.

As negative as a turn of events as this is, it could be a positive in odd sort of way in which we might view hackers blowing open vulnerabilities. This software, like any can spread like FB - crawling across the globe and no extra cost to the goons running it. I wonder what my score in China might be even though I don't live there. Maybe next, Valenzuela. Now is the time to construct a defense - if even possible.

jld89• 8 years ago

Valenzuela? Really?

gexla2• 8 years ago

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant-zt...

fsloth• 8 years ago

As a non-chinese 'westerner', to my understanding the important background to this culturally is that Chinese culture has been traditionally much more legalistic than western culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy).

It has lots of nuances but the most important difference, if compared to western view of the justice system and the rights of state, is that the most important thing in a legalistic system is to punish those that break the law, and other considerations like individuals right to a fair proceeding and so on, are secondary.

I think this social credit system is the perfect manifestation of the legalistic frame of mind. The system is built so that those that step out of the line are punished.

Western humanistic philosophy is quite new when compared to how chinese state has been ruled for millenias. I'm not saying this to make any value propositions into one direction or the other - just that there is quite a lot of cultural background here that Europeans and anglosaxons might not be aware of.

skrebbel4• 8 years ago

I think this is a valid observation, and I hadn't made the link yet. Legalism has been used since the very first Chinese emperors to keep the population in check. It's a tool of oppression and arguably no place has a richer history of tools of oppression than China.

Xi must be thinking "hey, it worked for millennia, why stop now?"

throwaway548u654• 8 years ago

Yet in practice, I’ve had the opposite experience.

In China, when you break some rule or law, the police are much more lenient and forgiving. First time offenders (of minor crimes) always just get warnings. Even if the law requires a fine or some punishment, most cops will let you go after a stern lecturing.

But in the US, once the bureaucracy kicks in, then you have to follow the letter of the law. There is very little compassion. It’s about punishment, not re-education.

Perhaps it’s different in Europe, but that’s my experience in China and the US.

Confiks• 8 years ago

A lot of people in here reference Black Mirror, but it also made me think of ST:VOYs Critical Care [1] (which has plot holes you can just as well drive through).

[1] http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Care_(episode)

jmartrican• 8 years ago

I think the biggest problem with this is that citizens that want to speak out about the government will now be more easily blackballed. So now the government can more easily repress a revolution. I suspect this means that the Communist Party of China will most likely remain in power for a lot longer than their natural shelf-life. When this party makes mistakes and misjudgments, what would happen now? The people will not be able to over-throw or speak out. The people will just have to eat the costs and hope the party does not screw up too much. Basically, the Communist Party has removed one of its last checks to power, internal revolt.

monochromatic• 8 years ago

Surely this is the main goal of such a system.

ziont• 8 years ago

Neo-confucianism is now digitized.

cm2187• 8 years ago

The way I understand this social credit system, it is trying to emulate at a scale of a one billion population the social control you had in a small XVIII century village. Basically what forces you to behave is not so much the law than the fear of contempt from your peers, which could impact every aspect of your life.

And I can't help thinking that while it may be efficient at forcing people to not behave like a jerk, it will also have the same effect than for a XVIII century village: a high degree of conformism, that supresses any evolution or innovation. It may be the desired effect by the current rulers, preventing any political challenge. But I think it will also lead to an inexorable decline of the Chinese society.

inawarminister• 8 years ago

Ah, the cycles of Chinese dynasties, seem to be as eternal as the culture itself.

bicubic• 8 years ago

forcing people to not behave like a jerk

It doesn't force people to not behave like a jerk, it could just as easily lead to a nation of jerks. It forces people to strictly act within a tiny zone at the center of the Overton window[0]. At scale, it means that natural ideological progress will significantly slow down.

Any ideas or actions outside the norm will be culled. It's a move to homogenise the masses and allow the party to more easily set the general direction of 'desired' behaviours. This is pretty clearly the goal first and foremost. Stopping people from being jerks is just the marketing label.

The set of measures used to determine social credit will change over the next two decades and will become an ever tighter definition of what the party wants its citizens to be. The current criteria are just the entrée that was determined to be palatable to the masses.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

mk1111• 8 years ago

You guys just don’t know CCP. All they want is to controll everyone, eliminate dissenters and make everyone scared. It has nothing to do with social credit. —— from a chinese citizen

mattdanger• 8 years ago

For those interested in getting a high level of how China's Social Credit System works, NPR's Planet Money did a good show on the topic last month.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/09/655921710/chin...

lumber-pail• 8 years ago

Think of the upside if your status followed you everywhere you went, and instead of relying on human decency you could expect treatment in proportion to your behavior.

Something like this will inevitably arrive in the West due to human desire for status. Not much different from a thousand little decisions you make every day getting dressed and walking down the street that show the world who you are and what your values are. Now conveniently bundled and accessible to all.

Our grandchildren will wonder how we did business online without it.

skrebbel4• 8 years ago

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem.

So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK?

George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever". He thought he was making a dystopian prediction, a warning of sorts, but he could've just as easily called it a history lesson about China.

Sure, many other places, most places in fact, have horrible histories, with evil rulers vastly outnumbering the even somewhat good ones, but China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name.

A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad.

NOTE: Nothing against the Chinese culture or people. I'm extremely fond of lots of Chinese things, not in the least Chinese humor for which I have a particularly soft spot. I love working with Chinese people, I love meeting Chinese people. It makes me sad that such a wonderful place and a wonderful culture can also have such a horrible tradition of oppression.

mavdi• 8 years ago

Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo.

Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine...

25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare that to the absolute carnage of Syria, which has had less than half a million casualties.

Juliate5• 8 years ago

That's not a valid excuse for a totalitarian, unfair system.

Because these systems have all been torn down by some kind of civil war - there is no other way, because of the nature of power and the structures it uses.

paganel3• 8 years ago

Mores do change, people do evolve (I know that's not the PC term to use, but that's the reality of it), there's no reason to allow ourselves to allow the Government or any other Government-like entity to dictate our lives only because some centuries (or decades ago) there was a deadly civil war going on. Just think about the English and John Locke, who wrote his "Second Treatise of Government" just a few decades after the English king had been decapitated as the result of a civil war. Without people like Locke the world would have been a worst place now and we wouldn't probably have this conversation at all.

dnomad• 8 years ago

China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name.

This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted here on reddit and in the Western press. This is the very essence of people being disconnected from reality and constructing a new reality in accordance with their ideology.

Reality check: go to China and actually talk to the Chinese themselves. Radical idea! Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new. Anybody who understands how Chinese society has always worked would understand that this is the application of new technology to ideas that are nearly three thousand years old.

Anyways resume your ideological freak-out.

[1] https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-...

Kaveren3• 8 years ago

"Citizens with access to benefits respond more favorably"

Of course they do. These sorts of systems always offer a sizable portion of the population benefits, that's how they gain popular support. This doesn't mean that they aren't terrible ideas.

You have to consider how a government affects the people who disapprove of the government, who are not part of a majority, who are not conformists.

Many people don't think this is worth doing. But the sentiment that only the conformist majority matters has led to unspeakable atrocities throughout history, and continues to even in the present day across the world.

username902• 8 years ago

Social credit is extremely popular in China

Person: "I think a social credit system is bad for China."

Automated Bot: "100 social credit penalty for you!"

cloverich• 8 years ago

Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new.

Slavery was once popular in America, and as a system was not new. It was hugely beneficial to a segment of the population. Would you be pro slavery because of those arguments?

paraditedc3• 8 years ago

I want to leave a comment to fellow Chinese citizens reading this thread.

1. "Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear."

2. Don't get triggered by downvotes. They are just virtual numbers. They won't change the reality and facts. In the future, you will be able to come back and laugh at them.

3. It is not worth your time to explain the facts to them. Eventually people will face the reality no matter how hard media paints it. Just give it some time for the world to sort itself out.

Edit: If you really want to comment, try your best to be civil and substantial. I know it is hard with all the emotions, but not impossible.

Juliate5• 8 years ago

But please don't be too proud either.

China is a great country, you're a great people. As we all are. All humans. Qualities. Defaults. History.

You're not _that_ exceptional either.

We don't criticize China. Neither you.

We criticize the very idea of automation of social credit (thus of social relations, and individual freedom, and life), because our parents and grandparents had to experiment with it, and its consequences.

tepidandroid• 8 years ago

A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad.

The Chinese government abused and oppressed their people so hard for so long they accidentally lifted 740 million people out of abject, 3rd world poverty. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.

iliketosleep2• 8 years ago

I think you're missing the big picture. Just ask yourself these two questions: 1. How did they get into "abject, 3rd world poverty" in the first place? 2. Is their current policy direction closer to the era of Deng or that of Mao?

Kaveren3• 8 years ago

China is approaching a nightmarish dystopian society, if it hasn't reached that already.

I'm glad I live in a country where I can spend however much money I feel like on video games without being targeted by an oppressive government.

You just have to love a country where you can be murdered by the government for selling marijuana, yet if you abstain from alcohol for religious reasons you are an enemy of the state and must be turned into authorities.

Authoritarianism of all forms must be opposed worldwide. Who is to say the West won't be subjugated to such systems a couple decades from now, if we don't stand up for freedoms with vigor?

iliketosleep2• 8 years ago

I'm afraid that by the time people wake up to this, it will already be too late. Authoritarianism backed by high tech is a permanent nightmare come true. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems unstoppable - not enough people seem to really care. It's a weakness of human psychology, we are too caught up in the short-term, but in this case the long-term consequences will be terminal.

codedokode• 8 years ago

They say that the system helps to punish for violating traffic laws or evading taxes. But why police and courts cannot deal with this? Maybe because the real purpose is something else?

Also, in some countries there are similar systems, where your rights might be restricted without court's judgement or right for appeal. For example, in Russia, if you are suspected to be an extremist, you won't be able to withdraw money from your bank account. In other countries there are no-fly lists or potential terrorists lists which restrict people's rights without being able to defend themselves.

wozmirek4• 8 years ago

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer.

This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)?

Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't blame them.

paganel3• 8 years ago

"Feeling safer" has almost nothing to do with the Government watching you and it's almost entirely caused by the local social norms. Case in point and to partly answer your question: I have a woman colleague who has recently moved to London from Bucharest. She told me that while living in Bucharest she had no issue at all going back home alone at 2 or 3 in the morning, while in London she avoids going out all by herself after 8 PM, because she does not feel safe.

Doesn't matter that London is one of the most camera-surveilled cities in the "Western" world while Bucharest has almost no cameras, all it matters is that there are more people in London ready to physically and verbally harass a person walking on the street all by her/himself compared to a city like Bucharest. I have no idea on how one would change those social norms, I'm just saying that adding cameras hasn't solved the issue and will probably not solve it.

wozmirek4• 8 years ago

Oh, I agree with you m8. I'm terrified with the surveillance stuff. I'd exchange then my "safe(r)" with "more sense of "safety"" (double quote deliberate).

Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest? Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin while she feels safer in Krakow.

bytematic• 8 years ago

Well they had no credit system before so it was awful to get any sort of loan or expect it to be paid back. Lots of chinese people are for this policy.

zimbatm• 8 years ago

It's usually the choice that society as a large is making: do we prefer Freedom or Safety? For example after 9/11 American exchanged a lot of freedom for more safety. It's a choice we all have to make.

rqs2• 8 years ago

There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer.

Why wouldn't she?

If you've installed a nuclear bomb inside a person's home and tell that person the bomb will keep him safe, he will probably feel safer either. That is as long as you don't tell him about the fact that the detonator is controlled by a nasty monkey.

In China, you can only see the positive news about the system. Even when a journalist are trying to tell you the danger, on the surface the writing will eventually boil everything down to privacy protection, not the system.

So, don't be surprised.

wozmirek4• 8 years ago

Well, of course. It's the same as with reading any official communication from the Russian government ;)

I'm talking about the premise that may appeal to 50% of the citizens. We (as in being able-bodied men, we should take into considerations people with disabilities, weaker, older, frailer) might get outvoted.

rwmj• 8 years ago

Did they ask someone with a negative rating whether they felt safer too?

apatters• 8 years ago

How do you know she was telling the truth? If she criticizes the system too much she'll lose credit and be blacklisted from booking flights etc.

virmundi• 8 years ago

Think about how great this will be in the US. Finally, we can tag people who think incorrectly. They can be given low scores. All those people in fly overstates can just remain there. Hopefully the thought of a 72 hour car ride to a civilized city will give them pause when promoting fake news like Bernie's plan for universal healthcare is bad. It will be a wonderful day for the country when we can correct their wrong-thoughts.

ancorevard• 8 years ago

Just imagine if the National Socialist party in Germany would have had this in the 1930-40s. They could have been even more “efficient” in taking out the various groups of people they found to be of “low social value”.

For everyone but those who believe in powerful centralized governments this is a nightmare scenario.

tivert2• 8 years ago

They've already had parts of this in place for awhile. My aunt-in-law's friend has had difficulty traveling in China because she's mistakenly listed in the system as being some kind of Falun Gong leader through some kind of clerical error. She found out when she was on a bus going on vacation, and they pulled her off the bus once they scanned her national ID.

She has no appeal and no way to correct the mistake. None of the police or officials she's talked to have done anything. She's just stuck with it.

methodover2• 8 years ago

This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for this? Was there a democratic process?

tivert2• 8 years ago

This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for this? Was there a democratic process?

Of course not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea...

noarchy• 8 years ago

Is the 50 cent party working overtime in these threads? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

rick222• 8 years ago

Its sad technology is being used for evil. What are the suggestions to a programmer who fears his native country might adopt such systems. Are there any open source projects focused on combating such systems ?

pgt• 8 years ago

What can I do as an engineer to alleviate this problem?

kaonashi• 8 years ago

I think I’d rather live under something like this than the opaque, private fico system.

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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

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