For $450, a Japanese Company Will Quit Your Job for You

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642597968/for-450-this-japanese-company-will-quit-your-job-for-you

by lnguyen • 8 years ago

173 112 8 years ago

sleepychu• 8 years ago

Wow, hard to believe this is turning a profit. I definitely don't enjoy resigning but unlike other 'difficult' employment conversations I usually have a hard deadline to meet the start date of the next job and these things are never as bad as you expect.

Did once have to give it to my boss's boss though because it was an unexpected snow day and we were 2/3 of the people in the office!

sosense• 8 years ago

I've never had any issue resigning, but perhaps this could be a new hire perk. "We offer free snacks, 401k matching, and previous employer termination service."

h4b4n3r02• 8 years ago

> previous employer termination service

I would pay pretty good money to terminate one of my previous employers.

hnzix• 8 years ago

I'm sure there's something available on the darknet.

kwhitefoot• 8 years ago

Sounds quite reasonable to me, after all that is exactly how telephony and electricity suppliers, and insurance companies work here in Norway. You just tell the one you want to switch to and they deal with closing your accounts at the one you are switching from.

anonytrary• 8 years ago

I'm conflicted -- mainly because this doesn't seem sustainable, but maybe it works in Japanese culture. Not only are you not quitting in-person, but you're not doing it yourself. If you think quitting over text is bad, how would they feel if you asked your old buddy from college to quit over text for you? On the other hand, I could see this being the norm in some dystopia where nobody talks to each other anymore or employees are just fluid hands.

toomanybeersies2• 8 years ago

I don't know why, but I found it really hard to resign at my old job. I actively disliked it and I didn't owe them anything. But still I found it really hard to resign and tell my colleagues that I was resigning, I didn't even care about them.

Most of the team only learned that I was leaving on my last week (I had given 3 weeks notice). I just felt really awkward telling them for some unknown reason. Funnily enough, I worked in a coworking space, and most other people in the space knew I was leaving before my coworkers. My coworkers only found out because they put my leaving party on the "this week" board in the kitchen.

chrisco2554• 8 years ago

It's hard to quit anything you've invested time and energy into, especially when it involves relationships with other people. Only way to get better at it, though, is to do it, however hard it is. I awkwardly (and abruptly) quit my first job (for another one) and later ran into my old manager. She brought up how awkward it was, and I replied that I should have done it better. The thing is, I think it was mostly out of shyness, or worry about disappointing someone. But I think that you learn by doing. You get better at framing it correctly, or dealing with objections, and you can quit in a way that brings closure to both parties. People from my past often pop back into it from time to time. It's important to try to leave on good terms whenever possible.

therockspush• 8 years ago

So you should quit more often and you'll get better at it. Thats my kind of advice.

Quitting a job is like leaving a party. You probably didn't like everyone there. You probably avoided some people. That's where the Irish Goodbye shines. You get to leave without having to decide who to say goodbye to, and avoid long winded and shallow well wishes. As long as you aren't burning bridges, it actually benefits both sides in a lot of ways to just ghost on coworkers.

toomanybeersies2• 8 years ago

I think that's it. I invested years of my life into building that product (that I owned exactly zero of). It felt weird giving it up to someone else, I had a lot of pride in the code I wrote.

profalseidol• 8 years ago

The company actually owes you a lot. At least the capitalist ones.

sametmax• 8 years ago

It's because of the way our brain deals with commitment: the more your invest yourself in something, the harder it is to quit.

E.G:

Put your bad next to a person and leave. A thief comes and steal the bag. You have a low change of the person to protect your bag.

Do the same, but just ask quickly if the person can keep an eye on the bag. You now have a much higher change that the person will protect it. The risks are the same for the person, and the gains are still zero, but they committed.

This have plenty of application in sales, politics, etc.

For a very fun ride about this, read "Small Treatise About Manipulation for Honest People ". It explains very well how we trick ourselves into taking weird decisions because of commitments.

tokyodude2• 8 years ago

I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc...

From that, people who have a job in Japan often feel obligated as in "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business. If I leave it will feel like not paying you back for all you've given me. It will also put you out for weeks to months.".

Japanese have an acute sense of obligation as well. There's a reason why you say "Don't worry this is really nothing" when you give a gift in Japan as you're trying to avoid adding to the receiver's obligation to reciprocate.

Of course as a westerner that attitude used to bug the crap out of me. I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months. At some point in my life my attitude would have probably been something along the lines of "If it's that important I stick around what's it worth to you?"

The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes. Of course not totally but I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes than the "we're all in this together" attitude or the "it takes a village" attitude I see more of in Japan. I think both extremes are bad but if my meter was pointing at the 100% me side before it's now around the 75% me side, 25% us side, now.

wolfgke• 8 years ago

I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc...

[...]

The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes.

Could this all plausibly be explained simply by buyer's market vs sellers's market for the respective jobs? I mean: if there exist far less good programmers than demand for them on the market, employees will easily become entitled (side story: for example in Germany, the job market for programmers is very different from what I read about the situation in the Silicon Valley on HN). On the other hand, if employers have lots of potential employees to choose from, the power dynamics is entirely different.

jpatokal2• 8 years ago

Well, there's also the fact that traditionally, if you quit a seishain (full time) job in Japan, you're seen as damaged goods (why else would you quit/be forced by your company to quit?) and it's exceedingly unlikely that another company would want to hire you. Obviously this is no longer true in the IT sphere, but in other industries this remains more or less the norm.

lx34596832• 8 years ago

I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months

[...]

I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes

I think your anecdote there proves otherwise. That person was asked to act against their own interest and did it out of feebleness. They didn't gain anything in return, it was not a equitable exchange where e.g the boss paid out an additional bonus for the employee continuing to stay against their wish.

In a capitalist society, it is always workers vs employers. Do not mistake Japan's social cohesion for some kind of workplace utopia. It is one of the worst countries on earth in terms of work life balance - which is currently destroying their entire society as childbirth rates plummet. This is not hyperbole. By 2030 years ~85% of the population will be elderly people.

mijamo• 8 years ago

Is 25 yo elderly for you?

Because by 2030 there will certainly NOT be 85% of the population as elderly (well except if some new sickness kills all the people below 65 obviously).

There might be 35% though, which is already quite high but not unmanageable.

tokyodude2• 8 years ago

I don't know where you got the idea I thought Japan was a workplace utopia. Yea I know it sucks. My point was the social cohesion has it's pluses. I didn't name any of them so I guess that makes my point poorly made.

Maybe this will make it clearer? Let's say you do a contract for $1000. As the contract progresses they promote you to fellow business people. "This guy's great. You should contract him for your needs". At the end of the contract you get paid the $1000. You're then asked, "hey, could you print 1 extra copy of that report"

Possible responses

1. Sure, That will be $50

2. Sure, on problem. Here you go.

Probably a bad example but I'd argue that (1) is the "me" attitude and (2) is the "us" attitude. They gave you free PR. I guess they should have been "Oh, you want me to tell me business contacts about you? Give me 10% for each successful contract".

I want to live in world (1) where people help each other unless it's total unreasonable.. Staying extra months at the company could arguably be unreasonable but it's also possible to feel obligation. You don't know how much training that employee received or what else they got from the relationship.

As another example, some company could hire you with zero experience (taking a chance). You'd applied to 25 places but everyone said "no experience no hire". You work at this company and mostly they get very little good work out of you because they're giving you so much training. Not only are you slower than the experienced people but those experienced people have to spend time explaining better ways to do things to you, time they could be spending directly on their other responsibilities.

At the end of year you now have "experience" so you ditch the company for another job. Some people would see that as close to theft. You just took a free paid education from them when they were hoping the deal was they'd train you, even paying you while you're being trained vs you having to pay a school to train you, and then they expected you to be a productive employee for at least a year or two after the training.

Would you seriously feel zero obligation?

emodendroket6• 8 years ago

The problem is that, while employees still feel this sense of obligation, management has gradually undergone "Americanization" and has far fewer qualms about not holding up their end of the bargain.

s73v3r_2• 8 years ago

I'm sorry, but I absolutely cannot get behind any of this "spoiled engineer" stuff. Mainly because employers here, not completely in tech but in general in the US are shit, and treat their staff like shit. That "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business." doesn't apply here, because most employers simply don't do that.

tinco• 8 years ago

Resigning seems hard, but it's a little bit like giving regular feedback in my opinion. First of all it's best done face to face, because you don't want to be misunderstood, and you want to give the other party a fair chance at replying.

Second, you give the compliment sandwich. You start out with thanking them for the opportunity (any job is an opportunity, no matter how shitty it was, you made money and you learned something, sadder but wiser you may be). Then you tell them you would wish to quit your job after the contractual resignation period. Don't neglect mentioning that! If you just say you want to resign, they might just accept your immediate resignation and you'll miss out on the period you might have planned on. The final compliment has to make sure you'll be able to work together through the final period, just assure them you'll keep up your efforts and help transfer your knowledge to colleagues.

I'll do it for you for $450 if your employers speak English or Dutch ;)

sofon3• 8 years ago

I think like most "weird Japan" articles this one is being mischaracterised somewhat.

It is often somewhat difficult in Japan to get your legal entitlement when leaving a so called "black" company. They might not easily pay out your remaining holiday, or they might use "power harassment" to otherwise make your exit process difficult.

So I can see that a company like this, while not providing legal services, removes the possibility of applying harassment to coerce employees to stay a bit longer or not take their full legal entitlement.

andruby• 8 years ago

What are these so-called "black" companies? It sounds intriguing.

emodendroket6• 8 years ago

I mean, there's also the fact that these stories never tell you how prevalent or not these services are. All the attention showered on these unusual services can give you the idea that every second person in Japan is using them when that's far from true.

nmstoker• 8 years ago

Surely they're even less likely to uphold their legal duties if you signal that you haven't got the courage to turn up in person.

hfdgiutdryg3• 8 years ago

So, this is more akin to paying a lawyer to author a letter for you in order to persuade another party to take the legally correct course of action.

tonysdg• 8 years ago

First of all it's best done face to face, because you don't want to be misunderstood, and you want to give the other party a fair chance at replying.

You're making an assumption here: that one is leaving for amicable reasons (e.g., a better paying job elsewhere, a new career path, going back to school, etc.). There's another mindset that this sort of company is perfect for: "I don't give a hoot about my soon-to-be-ex-employer, I just want out."

In that case, a company like this might even be the better means of quitting -- as the saying goes, "if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all." This company provides (IMO) a valuable ways of communicating without having to get personal feelings involved (at least for the departing employee).

ptero2• 8 years ago

Amicable reasons or not, face to face is best. At work you sometimes have to face situations that are not pleasant. Staying calm and professional pays dividends. One can (and should) still be quick and firm during the resignation meeting.

And the world is a small place -- exiting right can help you in the future, even if you think you will never work with that company again. My 2c.

buckminster• 8 years ago

These all seen like great reasons to resign in writing. You can be very clear and you won't forget anything important in the heat of the moment. Your manager can similarly provide a measured response.

I always do this and I've maintained cordial relations with former employers.

jonawesomegreen2• 8 years ago

Second, you give the compliment sandwich.

I've heard this called the shit sandwich. Good news, bad news, good news. Helps to break unpleasant news in all kinds of situations.

groby_b2• 8 years ago

It's an incredibly patronizing way to give feedback: "Hey, you'd never be able to handle criticism on its own, let me window dress it for you. I assume you'll be stupid enough to never notice"

There are plenty of ways to deliver negative feedback with empathy, in a non-hurtful way. This, however, isn't one of them.

quickthrower2• 8 years ago

$450? All you need to do is extend your middle finger.

auslander6• 8 years ago

Japan is different. Most jobs there are for life and employer is percepted like a grandfather. Heck, they sing company hymns starting their work day.

Asooka• 8 years ago

Text-only link sans ads and tracking: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=642597968

MaxikCZ• 8 years ago

I wish every web would offer this. Its so nice to read when you dont have to deal with everything around it

ekianjo• 8 years ago

I have quit jobs several times in Japan and while quitting was not difficult in itself, I did not like one bit the fact that resignations are almost kept secret to most employees. Like some of my more distant colleagues noticed weeks after I left that I was not in the office anymore and found out by asking around that I resigned. Always amazes me.

kat• 8 years ago

The secret approach seems to happen in America as well. I've seen it several times. Some quits and no one is told until a few days beforehand. People on other teams are not told until later, etc.

In Canada its much more open. Everyone knows, you give more 4-2 weeks depending on how senior you are. Usually there is gift-giving/going for lunch/etc.

magduf• 8 years ago

I saw this several times in my first post-college engineering job in America; it's not unique to Japan. I didn't notice the guy in the cubicle had left the company for about a week, and there were other people who "mysteriously" vanished. It's a company culture thing: this (small) company just didn't bother telling anyone what was going on with other employees.

At the big companies I've worked at, this would be unheard of: they always had nice going-away parties etc. They even had going-away parties when people transferred to another department.

auslander6• 8 years ago

In my culture, quitting is a rewarding experience, feels good to say fuck you and your corporate toxic waste disaster, I had enough :)

throwaway67893• 8 years ago

In my country (India), quitting is a nightmare, especially in the IT consultancies. We have to serve a 3 months notice period. HRs and managers will threaten you (had multiple personal experiences). Then if you somehow quit, you are still at the mercy of previous manager and HR for service (experience) letter, which is needed for future jobs.

If you are on H1B, quitting can be even more challenging. Some companies that sponsor your visa from India wants you to serve a 3-12 months notice period. You cannot quit from US, you have to come back to India and quit. Otherwise, you have to pay several lakhs of rupees to the company. Its not just Indian companies, some US companies who are top in what they do in the world also do this.

I have been wanting to quit my current job working for the US division of an Indian IT company for a while now, but the thought of having the talk with my manager makes me anxious. Same manager threatened me last time with service letter, and he got what he wanted.

auslander6• 8 years ago

I'm in Australia. Notice to serve is 2-4 weeks, some get 'stress' sick leave for the period, but most don't. Threatening you how? In AU its criminal, nobody does that.

No letter is required here for the job, but references are. Just names and phone numbers of mates you worked with, checks are done on personal level, not through HR.

0xcafecafe2• 8 years ago

On what legal grounds are they asking you to pay them money? Did you sign a bond or something similar on joining? I have heard anecdata of that not being enforceable.

darkstar999• 8 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTOKJTRHMdw

topmonk• 8 years ago

This sort of thing seems really sad to me,

From the site linked in the article, "Proper Etiquette for Quitting Your Job in Japan":

Show your appreciation to every member of the company, or at least those you have been working with directly. Sweets, small gifts such as mugs, tea sets, a thank-you card or other similar items will be appreciated by everyone. Prepare those for your last day on the job. Usually, Japanese companies will see you off by hosting a small party and presenting you with a flower bouquet, so having something to give in return always makes a good impression. You may also be asked to give a speech, so prepare a few farewell words just in case—but keep it short and sweet.

Skipping these niceties in order to save embarrassment makes the world a little colder.

ptero2• 8 years ago

When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by management, they quickly stop being nice.

For a person who spent a lifetime at the firm (which used to be pretty common in Japan) and is retiring from work altogether, they may be a warm touch. For someone who hates the job and wants to leave, maybe not so much. Not burning bridges is always a good idea, but I can understand avoiding long, scripted performances in this case.

emodendroket6• 8 years ago

I mean, Japanese society is like this everywhere and there are tons of services set up to make it easy for you. For instance, I stayed at a hotel near Narita airport, and they had a book organized by continent where you could order souvenirs from whatever place you had just been to send to friends and family (in case you forgot or didn't bother to pick them up while you were there).

Nadya3• 8 years ago

When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by management, they quickly stop being nice.

It isn't about being nice though - it's about giving the appearance of nice. If everyone is being nice and courteous to one another for the sake of group harmony, then I think it is good. I can understand why many people would be irritated by it, but then this kind of culture isn't for them.

I visit Japan often and I'm aware of just how much of the culture is a "bullshit front". That's not surprising when an important concept is around being two-faced[0]. If this type of culture bothers you - it's a terrible country to live in. But the constant "faking for group harmony" leads to actual group harmony as far as I can tell. It's enjoyable being in a culture where people try to support one another than one that's an individualistic - "everyone fend for themselves" - culture like the U.S.A.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

segmondy• 8 years ago

Your comment makes me sad, you like most people don't appreciate culture that you don't understand.

emodendroket6• 8 years ago

He's praising the culture though?

HenryBemis• 8 years ago

I recently watched the movie "Oh Lucy" (with Shinobu Terajima, Josh Hartnett, Kaho Minami)[1] where we (outsiders) can see the traditional mentality/way of thinking of a working environment in Japan. I do understand that this is a movie, so some things are softened/exagerated, and reading the article I immediately understood that the "normality" is and how the movie represented this elegantly.

[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6343058

ASalazarMX• 8 years ago

I'd dread leaving if this was required to leave where I work. I've went to a restaurant in a group to say goodbye to someone, but this is too much.

saudioger• 8 years ago

If you're unaware of other cultures this will make no sense to you, but quitting in many places is very very hard.

auslander6• 8 years ago

I am unaware of other cultures, but you could take some effort to describe it to me.

axilmar• 8 years ago

How many bullshit does Japan have, I wonder? for as much as I admire them for their achievements I lament them for these strange things.

My favorite method of quiting is the following: I enter the manager's office, I say, "I quit" (signing any documents required), then I leave and they never see me again.

around_here• 8 years ago

I really love all the Japan articles lately because they're all the "Japan is weird" thing, but take everything totally out of context.

Customs, much like words, lose their meaning when taken out of the cultural context.

tjpnz• 8 years ago

Why's it so hard? Tell your boss, request a withholding slip and proof of residence tax. Done.

vinceguidry• 8 years ago

It's my opinion that how you manage career transitions, forgive me for using an unnecessarily gender-specific idiom, separates the men from the boys when it comes to professionalism.

The ideal is that you use things like exit interviews as a canvas on which to have a broader discussion about both career and business priorities that will leave them very interested in bringing you back on in an expanded capacity once you've grown in your career more.

This requires the ability to clearly understand and distill why you couldn't get what you needed out of your current job. Nobody's really expecting you to be unhappy, but at the same time, there's a kind of expectation that you raise issues and work them out before they reach the point where you go find another job.

Naturally, something like compensation isn't part of this expectation, if another company is offering you $30k more, you won't be expected to have asked for that before handing in your notice, because obviously you weren't going to get it. But if compensation is the primary reason you're leaving, then rationally speaking, you should be open to accepting a counter-offer. If you're not open to that, then you need to clarify more reasons why you're leaving.

My understanding is that it's best to tie what you want and why you couldn't get it to the business model of the company. That offers the least-offensive pathway through an exit interview that results in no legal issues and the utmost in professional candor. They can't change the business model, so another job is a perfectly appropriate pathway to getting what you want. This naturally requires you to understand the company's biz model and this is best accomplished by having discussions with your manager.

If you want career advancement, doing it through your current job requires you to wait for an opportunity to open up. I would have happily stayed at my last job if I could have led a team, but that wasn't in the cards. But it was an option that we explored.

If you have a personal problem with someone working there, then the expected resolution is to restructure the teams so you don't have any interaction with them. This one is a bit tricky, I wouldn't bring it up in an exit interview, but behind closed doors long before you start looking. This way you can simply hint at it in the interview and everyone knows what you mean without having to actually discuss it, while the surface discussion is about business priorities. A personal problem affects team cohesiveness though, and if management isn't willing to resolve them, then that points to a political problem with the organization.

Anyway, I hope this offers some frameworks and tools to help with career management.

rlander• 8 years ago

It has to go both ways, though. At my last job, when I first talked to the CTO (my boss) about leaving, he asked me to think about it and talk again the next day. The next day he postponed the meeting. Then, at the day of the meeting, he was out of the office. It had been 5 days since the first talk so I chose to escalate the matter and, in an Arrested-Development-episode kind of situation, I learned that the CEO and the CTO decided to mysteriously leave for vacation because they felt burnout.

jiveturkey• 8 years ago

I have to know ... did you quit? What happened next?

john_moscow• 8 years ago

I'm curious what would have happened, had you also taken a sick vacation then.

BTW, generally, people are less likely to pull off shit like that if you motivate your resignation with some health/moving/whatever external factors. Just shift the focus way from "I don't want to work with you assholes" to "my wife got reassigned to %STATENAME%, so I guess I have to follow" or whatever sounds plausible and you're good to go.

komali22• 8 years ago

Awkward when you bump into them at the local bar a couple months down the line though :P

ghostbrainalpha• 8 years ago

My best quit excuse was that I had Crohn's disease. It let me step away immediately, because I didn't want to poop myself in the office.

I also offered to work from home for my final two weeks, to help them train my replacement, but it had to be from home, because of the pooping issue.

What's really nice is that I had a ton of options. I could even apply to have my job back, if I couldn't find remote work, in a few months if I had success with the treatment and felt more comfortable in an office environment.

_x5tx• 8 years ago

How did you manage to leave?

lordlimecat• 8 years ago

I think you just leave if theyre gone two weeks. It's not like you didn't give notice.

paulie_a• 8 years ago

Why in the world would you want someone else to do that for you? You are leaving for a reason and in my experience it was incredibly liberating to put notice in.

For $450, a Japanese Company Will Quit Your Job for You

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