Nobody Trusts Facebook, Twitter Is a Hot Mess, What Is Snapchat Doing?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-22/nobody-trusts-facebook-twitter-is-a-hot-mess-what-is-snap-s-evan-spiegel-doing

by pdog • 8 years ago

181 184 8 years ago

bloomberg.com

lingzb• 8 years ago

Sounds like Evan is copying Mark this time :p

https://www.fastcompany.com/3052887/mark-zuckerbergs-growth-...

at-fates-hands• 8 years ago

Spiegel miscalculated and its cost him billions. He had multiple opportunities to sell Snapchat to the competitors who are now still growing and copying his features while his own platform has essentially stalled out.

A verge article detailed its decline a few months ago:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/18/17366528/snapchat-decline...

And the previous HN discussion on said article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17431663

sp332• 8 years ago

Facebook went up against Snapchat directly, pushing Stories as hard as possible in all their apps. There's nothing inherently wrong with the product, it just got out-competed by a bigger player.

jandrese2• 8 years ago

I have to admit I heard about Snapchat for the first time when they turned down IIRC a billion dollars from Facebook. Then I looked into it and realized that the CEO must be crazy because his audience was almost entirely composed of fickle teenagers.

misiti3780• 8 years ago

i agree with everything you said except he is a currently supposedly worth 3B which is more than he would have gotten if he sold to facebook -- no?

late2part• 8 years ago

I don't know anyone over 18 who uses Snapchat besides celebrities.

gumby• 8 years ago

a lot of college students.

pgm8705• 8 years ago

Opposite for me. I don't know many people over 18 who don't use Snapchat. Even parents of most my peers(late 20s - mid 30s) use it. It has largely replaced iMessage or SMS for exchanging dumb pictures of day-to-day things (e.g. Your dog doing something silly/cute)

YourMatt• 8 years ago

I'm pushing 40. It's split in my circle. Less than half use it. Of the other half, it's mostly women. I personally tried it and rejected it after getting a feel for how it works.

pmulv• 8 years ago

As some anecdata, my mid-twenties group of friends and I use snapchat frequently. My brother is a freshman in college and he uses it with his friends as well.

For whatever reason, starting "streaks" has become popular with my friends, where the same friends will snap me everyday and expect a snap in reply so that our counter of consecutive days increases over time. I hate to admit it, but I enjoy this gamification of the service, and it has resulted in me checking snapchat everyday for more than 650 consecutive days. I know it's been that long because that is my longest snap streak, but the truth is that I am rarely the one that breaks the streak so it has probably been much longer than that. There is also definitely a feeling of disappointment and relief when a large streak is broken.

sutterbomb• 8 years ago

650 consecutive days?! Lock your phone in a safe for a weekend and take a walk in the woods, I beg you.

jarboot• 8 years ago

Just wanted to say as a 20-25 year old, snapchat is still extremely popular among people I know. The perception is snapchat for friend's daily lives, instagram for following celebs/creators and permanent posts, facebook for events and extended family, and messenger for email/wechat/whatsapp functionality. It's the primary way I keep in contact with acquaintances, and many other people I know are the same.

It's a more intimate version of social media that is typically only used by smartphone-savvy people and it's perfect for this. I see nothing besides my friend's content and a few ads between viewing their stories, while instagram inserts ads and algorithmically sorts content in the feed. Once I go through every one of my friend's stories, there's nothing to keep me on the app and endlessly scrolling like instagram. To me and others, insta is intentionally addictive Posting permanent posts there about your life can sometimes come across as vain, while snapchat is more of a window to view your friend's world through and gives very open statistics like who has seen a story, if someone has opened a snap, etc.

I have my problems with snapchat, like poor android support, slow startup time, bloat, and sponsored stories on the right side are tabloid trash. But it's still very heavily used in America. Most friends outside of the US say that it declined in use in their European or african countries like a fad, but it's become a standard in the US. Those of you saying it's useless besides teenagers using it to sext or not knowing anyone above 18 that uses snapchat look out of touch or like you're pushing an agenda. It might be declining but it is still a large force and very used!

ryandrake2• 8 years ago

The perception is snapchat for friend's daily lives, instagram for following celebs/creators and permanent posts, facebook for events and extended family, and messenger for email/wechat/whatsapp functionality.

That sounds exhausting! Stereotypical “old person” here. I can’t imagine having my social life so completely moderated by and tied to web services. It sounds like a full time job just to manage it all.

rconti• 8 years ago

I've never used Snapchat, but I like this description where there's an "end" to the content, rather than infinite scrolling. You can catch up, and be done.

To reply to another commenter here, I, too, am "old" and generally find any video content exhausting. I like text and pictures; the idea of an experience to which I am captive feels suffocating; I feel like I have no choice. Oh, it has sound, great, now I have to put my headphones on. Or I have to watch this youtube video eventually get to the point, or a gif of indeterminate length.

I feel the same way about Instagram stories and video, BUT I think generally these platforms (I'm sure Snap included) at least have a scrubber so you know when it will be over.

newswriter992• 8 years ago

Takes three paragraphs to get to the answer: Instagram stories.

Snapschat is busy trying to remain relevant as Instagram one-ups it again and again. Other than teenagers using it to sext, Snapchat is largely useless compared to Insta.

jandrese2• 8 years ago

Certainly their core business model of teens sexting is still strong?

partiallypro3• 8 years ago

Hard to monetize that without going against the grain of also being a family platform.

sevensor• 8 years ago

Seems like the bigger theme in the article is that the company is being run by a child.

Edit: I should perhaps expand on this. TFA repeatedly mentions Spiegel's tender age and his inexperience, and it points out that one of his core management techniques is a thing he picked up in prep school.

brootstrap• 8 years ago

Yeah those meetings they mentioned (council meetings), sounds like the worst meeting i've ever had at my company, but 10 times as cheesey and 'make me want to kill myself'y.

newswriter992• 8 years ago

Not that it matters but I just burned through a couple of bios about him and wow, for a 28-year-old he looks 40.

The stress of executive leadership I suppose . . .

bduerst6• 8 years ago

Google+ tried to copy facebook functionality too, right?

While instagram already has the users, I think the point is that you can build it, but you can't make people use it. Instagram can prevent existing users from leaving snapchat for 'stories', but will it really entice snapchat users to come over to instagram, given that social networks are a function of people who use it?

josephjrobison• 8 years ago

Instagram Stories daily active users is 400 million. [1]

Snapchat dau is 188 million. Given that this declined from 191 million from Q1 2018, seems Instagram is crushing them.

Anecdotally I’m surprised Snapchat is even doing this well. Before Instagram Stories I had probably 50 people a day posting new Snapchat stories. Now it’s a handful a week. They’re all on Instagram.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/730315/instagram-stories...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/545967/snapchat-app-dau/...

hart_russell• 8 years ago

That's quite a statement. I'm an active snapchat user, because the user interface is very streamlined. There's no cruft from over 24 hours ago on the platform.

dorkwood• 8 years ago

To me they’re entirely different products. I use Snapchat to send funny things I see to specific friends who will find them funny. I can’t do that on Instagram without broadcasting that same message to over 100 people.

kevinschumacher• 8 years ago

Instagram actually cloned snapchat in its app. You can send direct messages now. Photos, videos, filters, drawing, text, emoji, everything. Photo and videos can be sent to be viewed once/replayed (like snapchat), or persisted in the chat log.

joshvm• 8 years ago

Disagree. Currently helping run a summer camp with lots of < 18 year olds where we try to limit phone usage in group sessions. Snapchat is used for everything, probably sexting too, but as far as I can tell it's the goto instant messaging. When they're on their phones during sessions, they're all snapping each other. Insta is also ubiquitous - aside from following people, lots of them use it to discover smaller/niche bands (eg grime), for example. Facebook? Really uncool. Their parents are on Facebook.

Big component of these apps is the group dynamic. Plays well with the current culture of social capital, messages can be easily broadcast, rated, commented on, shared around. But you also have the option of things being semi-ephemeral.

lazzlazzlazz• 8 years ago

I used to see that among the <18 crowd, but Snapchat has evaporated weirdly quickly. I'm only hearing about Insta and a long tail of other apps. Lots and lots of conventional texting/iMessage.

grillvogel• 8 years ago

I'm in my 30s and most of my friends use snapchat for instant messaging, that is the primary purpose of snapchat.

creaghpatr• 8 years ago

I checked the sponsored stories section recently and the first one was called "WHY MY FRIENDS ATE MY SEVERED FOOT" by Vice Media. I did not inquire further.

Stopped checking Stories after that.

decisionfiction• 8 years ago

I feel old to use Snapchat but what I care about : word on the street - possible crypto integration shhh...

umvi• 8 years ago

Maybe it's just that my phone (Nexus 5X) is getting old, but Snapchat is probably the worst Android app I've ever used. Not sure how the iOS experience is.

Let's go down the list:

- HUGE (>300 MB)

- Extremely Slow/Laggy UI

- Battery Suck (mainly because it auto turns on location services, etc.)

- Sometimes soft bricks my camera (need to restart in order to use my normal camera app)

I only use it to stay in the loop of my family members, maybe I should start campaigning everyone to switch to Instagram.

ekianjo• 8 years ago

- Sometimes soft bricks my camera (need to restart in order to use my normal camera app)

Skype manages to do that on Android as well recently (while it used to work fine before).

GuiA• 8 years ago

If userland software can soft brick the camera, the problem is not the userland software.

RandallBrown• 8 years ago

Not sure how big the app is on iOS, but the app works really well for me. I've been really surprised with how quickly they can add features without breaking things. (At least they don't break my normal usage.)

tomc1985• 8 years ago

It used to be unusuable on my Moto X -- activating the camera would cause the phone to randomly reboot. Only Snapchat ever did that...

realusername• 8 years ago

I gave up about a year ago after a year of using it. I don't know if they solved it now but it never managed to play video without huge lags... So one of the core features of the app. It was also crashing constantly indeed. It's clearly the worst app I've ever used on Android, it was an hackathon-level of quality.

8ytecoder• 8 years ago

It's a recurring theme in Snapchat's financial disclosures, in fact.

https://stratechery.com/2018/facebooks-story-problem-and-opp...

Dennip• 8 years ago

I find it practically unusable on my iphone 6+, whilst other apps work fine.

wootie512• 8 years ago

I have exact same experience on my 5X.

They have taken short cuts on Android and instead of fixing the core app, they are focusing on their AR add ons. May be the right choice, but it has ended up with a horrible user experience on Android, at least on mid-level phones.

thinkythought• 8 years ago

It's always, always been terrible on android. It's to the point i almost think it's intentional for some "influencers use iOS" sort of reason. It works just as terribly on current flagship devices, and the picture quality is still horrible even compared to an iphone 5s

burkaman• 8 years ago

Until a few months ago, Snapchat was not using the Android camera API, it was just basically taking a screenshot from the viewfinder. It is now using the Camera1 api, which was last updated 10 years ago and deprecated 4 years ago. It wouldn't shock me if this ancient api is messing up your camera.

https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/snapchat-upgraded-its-a...

blauditore• 8 years ago

Snap employees complain about his dictatorial management style and penchant for secrecy.

This is not too surprising to me. I remember how he actively worked towards preventing Snapchat from existing on the windows (phone/mobile) platform, purely due to Microsoft hate. This went as them going out of their way to targetedly fight third party windows phone apps until that indie dev gave up disappointed. That was pretty pathetic.

Analemma_• 8 years ago

Everything I've read about Evan Spiegel indicates that he's really cargo-culting trying to be Steve Jobs, with no real understanding of why Jobs was successful.

Benjammer• 8 years ago

“Why would I go around the company and just chat with people? Like that would be so awkward”

He sounds like a 17 year old, not necessarily that he has no idea what he's doing, imo. Just seems super immature a lot of the time.

urtrs• 8 years ago

The meeting I attended started with an employee lighting a candle in the center of the circle to dedicate the session to a cause, and then proceeded with a series of free-association prompts. A moderator asked us to tell a story about our names or a memory related to summer.

This seems to me more like a cult than a company but maybe it works.

dvtrn2• 8 years ago

I'd be inordinately curious to hear from anyone as to how it works though.

Filligree• 8 years ago

There was an article very recently about how rituals help. Let's see... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17817912

Cults do the same thing, but doesn't mean it's inherently culty. It just easily lends itself to that.

lanevorockz• 8 years ago

Nobody that is smart trusts a company that provides services for free. If you are not paying you are the product and not the client.

AJRF• 8 years ago

Unrelated:

Chrome extension that changes the sentence "If you are not paying you are the product and not the client" to white space.

gmueckl• 8 years ago

This comes to my mind: https://xkcd.com/2015/

ravenstine• 8 years ago

Trusting people you don't know personally is just bad practice in general. And never trust anything that comes from the mouth of PR. Facebook was smart by having Zuckerberg act as public relations because he could act like he's one of us(not so much anymore), and people trusted him when he said things like "I just want to make the world more connected."(paraphrasing) Bad move, folks.

xeromal• 8 years ago

I trust duck duck go.

captainbland4• 8 years ago

Mastodon is growing on me. These big ol' VC driven social media giants are all overgrown and the cracks are showing. With mastodon, if one instance screws up, just go to another and still contact friends. I can even choose an instance with the economic and decision making model of my choosing, or run one myself and just engage with the federation on my own terms.

TremendousJudge• 8 years ago

just go to another and still contact friends

the only problem is that you can only have friends of the type of people that use Mastodon

egypturnash• 8 years ago

are you sure this is not actually an advantage

ct0• 8 years ago

So my mom and aunt wont be on it? Sign me up

Scoping_dindus• 8 years ago

Yeah, exactly. Look at the content Facebook wants you to see. Would you rather consume that?

captainbland4• 8 years ago

Have you met people on twitter?

code_duck• 8 years ago

Much like here, where I only talk to the kind of person who would sign up for Hacker News. Oh, wait... that’s a good thing.

chrisco2552• 8 years ago

Thing is, I've seen performance issues on some of the instances out there. Also, the UI could use a lot of work before it goes mainstream.

saudioger• 8 years ago

That's like saying "I've seen performance issues on websites", of course someone can have poor resourcing on their own servers — I think the biggest barrier for Mastodon is understanding how instances aren't individual monoliths and your choice can directly impact everything you do.

dredmorbius2• 8 years ago

Fail Whale on line three.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/the-s...

guiomie• 8 years ago

My impression when I looked into Mastodon was that it doesn't solve any of the issues with Twitter. It's just a bunched of servers owned by different entities, I doubt this will scale socially and technologically

captainbland4• 8 years ago

Well it's choice. That's what it gives you. No more, no less, really.

Rjevski4• 8 years ago

Mastodon will go nowhere unless they fix their branding and user experience first.

parliament32• 8 years ago

just go to another

Does Mastadon have a way to migrate your posts/followers/etc from one instance to another?

eahman08• 8 years ago

You can only contact friends from other instances if your instance hasn't blocked the other instance.

Also most instances are everything but free speech friendly. I don't understand where the improvement over Twitter is. It's a Twitter clone with fewer users, a more complicated UX, and where you can get banned faster.

phobosdeimos• 8 years ago

Nobody trusts this sector. Was the same for doctors a hundred years ago. Now doctors take an oath and lose their license if they are caught doing something unethical. Maybe the tech sector will get there one day too. Until then assume hostility.

FLUX-YOU• 8 years ago

Will probably need a high profile case before anything gets moving (since there's a LOT of money to fight back against ethical laws). We need a governing ethics body to determine ethical guidelines, otherwise people are just going to invent their own ethics hosted on Github and that's bad if you follow it and have to go to court.

reb• 8 years ago

Oath and licensing aside, public trust in doctors isn't great.

Still, some code of ethics and associated incentive structure for tech would be great. But as long as the industry can stay just ahead of legal ramifications and stay solvent... The hostility is an easy hoop to jump through.

buboard2• 8 years ago

Was the same for doctors a hundred years ago. Now doctors take an oath and lose their license

The Hippocratic oath is 2200 years old.

scrumbledober• 8 years ago

I don't really care what oath the doctor took (especially considering the actual wording of the hippocratic oath) but I definitely take comfort in the medical board's ability to revoke their license.

gowld2• 8 years ago

You need comically gross negligence/criminality to lose your license as a doctor. Stuff like making dance videos during surgery, or raping a dozen patients, or smuggling $1M worth of drugs.

AndrewKemendo• 8 years ago

This is a great example of how personnel leadership doesn't matter for success, so long as your product leadership is successful. The product success subsidizes everything else, including absent or toxic leadership.

And yes, Snapchat is clearly successful. They might be taking hits from the majors and close down in the long run, but Snap did create a new product category and redefined how video is consumed. They were the clear leaders in mobile AR also, which people don't seem to appreciate.

It's been really hard for me to come to this conclusion about leadership, because I grew up in a culture where personnel leadership is paramount - if you're a bad leader you can get those under you killed, or they'll kill you.

The fact that this just doesn't translate to business, especially where businesses are so focused on consumer products, is a challenge.

ryandrake2• 8 years ago

I think as with everything in business, people vastly underestimate the role luck plays. There are companies with good leadership and good products that fail. There are companies with poor leadership and poor products that succeed. There are companies with poor leadership but good product that succeed, and some that fail... and all combinations of these attributes and outcomes. There is little causality and everyone is basically just rolling dice.

sergiotapia• 8 years ago

Employees show up in groups of about a dozen, sit cross-legged on black cushions, and take turns with the “talking piece,” a heart-shaped purple geode that gives the bearer the right to confidentially share deep thoughts.

Is this SOP in sillicon valley?

JBReefer• 8 years ago

At this point I just take everything I hear about the valley as gospel - but always assume there's a healthy dose of harassment. So, so happy there's other options for tech.

deadmetheny• 8 years ago

I HAVE THE CONCH

swasheck• 8 years ago

Could it be a combination of saturation and fatigue? Sure, each of these platforms delivers a different experience, but there's really only so much you can "share" and, moreso, there's only so much that you can ingest. At some point in time I'm sure it gets exhausting updating all the things and keeping up with all the things.

kaycebasques• 8 years ago

Didn’t read the article, but just noting my impression based on the title (which is currently “Nobody Trusts Facebook, Twitter is a Hot Mess, What is Snapchat Doing?”)... maybe social media is in a “trough of disillusionment” akin to Gartner’s Hype Cycle? I’m suggesting this based on my interpretation that there seems to be a pervasive dissatisfaction and mistrust of social media in general.

lolive• 8 years ago

Apart from the title, I do not see any argument why Twitter is a to-be-replaced social network. Personnaly, I see it as a wonderful way to keep track of the topics of interest of people I do not know personnally. Plus I can comment, and these people can comment back. Sounds good to me.

jonshariat• 8 years ago

If you haven't been following it, the issue is not dealing with racists, calls for violence, hate speech, bullying, etc. There have been major clear cases and they refuse to act.

minieggs• 8 years ago

They've chosen to act w/ private accounts, muted accounts, muted words, and blocked accounts. Personally, I find muted words a powerful feature but perhaps my story is a bit different as I don't find myself targeted by hate too often (ever). I'm hesitant to believe kicking accounts off the platform is a great solve.

Does any social media platform take part in shadow banning? How has that worked out?

partiallypro3• 8 years ago

Twitter isn't going anywhere, it is far and above the most powerful social network. Because it's a raw data stream. As long as Jack doesn't kill it, it will live and be relevant for ages. There is no social media platform that is better for news and interacting with news makers...staying relevant to internet trends, etc. None are even close.

puranjay• 8 years ago

I like following people on Twitter. But man, the moment you open the comments to their tweets, I want to nope out of there completely.

Twitter's community is incredibly toxic

gaius• 8 years ago

lavish parties for Halloween and New Year’s Eve, which came with their own code of secrecy: no photos.

That speaks volumes in and of itself about the company culture. When a company bans its staff from using their own product what does that tell you?

nradov• 8 years ago

It tells you they didn't want any evidence for potential sexual harassment lawsuits resulting from drunken antics at company parties.

Maro8• 8 years ago

Based on my brief time at FB (in 2016-2017), FB is not evil. MZ is trying to do the right thing, overall. Using this as a major piece of positioning/propaganda is not going to work for Spiegel. Also, if they ever want to make money, they'll be playing the exact same game as FB. That's going to be tough, as by now Snapchat is just a feature (of FB). Also, I can tell you, FB employees are laser focused on executing and making a measurable impact (and getting a big bonus), there's no group therapy bitching. I don't have any love/hate for Snapchat, but it is going to be very tough for them. (I don't own either stock.)

venantius• 8 years ago

I think you're missing the point. It's not about MZ's motivations or even how FB thinks about things internally. It's about the perception by significant numbers of people - and, critically, their elected representatives - that FB is fundamentally shady.

There is a very good chance the path we're on ends with FB and potentially all of the social networks being considerably more regulated than they are currently, and I'd argue GDPR shows that we're already well on our way down that path.

Maro8• 8 years ago

Re regulation: I think regulation wouldn't help Snapchat, as any regulation would also apply to them. Actually, you could even argue that it's harder for a small(er) company to comply to regulation. (And btw. regulation is good, at this point MZ also thinks it's good and wants it.)

Re people think FB is shady: that seems to be true, but FB's MAU and DAU keeps going up, whereas Snapchat's has stalled. Actions speak louder than words, literally.

I'm not saying "Snapchat is f-cked", I'm just saying it will be very tough for them.

clay_the_ripper• 8 years ago

Although this seems like a popular opinion here, the only thing that concerns me about Facebook is the potential for the govt to get access to the data fb has on me. I actually trust fb with my data because I know that they don’t care what I do online and no one will ever look at it individually. They are just going to Hoover up as much data as possible to target me with better ads, but it’s not like a human being is looking at my data, it’s just a bunch of ML code.

However if the govt can subpoena them and I’m on trial, the prosecution could probably make anyone look like a phsychopath and twist the data to look however they want.

samstave• 8 years ago

The correct phrase, IMO, would be "cumulative shadiness" for FB...

Individually, and within groups, the work of the employees and teams at FB is nothing short of amazing (and apple, google, etc)... cumulatively though? The nature of these companies are not in the best interests of individual users, and when looked at the power and impact the company as a whole has over any individual in specific, is pretty obviously not in the favor of the individual.

The only problem that I have with anything related to the internet reality, is that it is no longer possible to not be connected to it and have any modicum semblance of a modern existence.

Maro8• 8 years ago

I have a great time on FB/Messenger. It's a tool, it's up to everybody to use it in a way that is a net positive for them. I have friends/acquintances in 10+ cities, and it's a great way to keep in touch. As you mention, this "way" is very different then if we would meet in person, but that is out of the question, as we are separated by 1,000 - 10,000 km. The alternative, on average, is not to hear anything about these old friends and never meet them, lose touch, and that's the end of it. That's what happened with people who are not on FB (and living away).

bduerst6• 8 years ago

Interesting. Almost like a tragedy of the commons - each individual is so "laser focused" on their own impact that it eventually leads to them plundering the cumulative value for users.

barrkel• 8 years ago

You know, capitalist food producers don't need to be evil. All they need do is keep tuning their food, and a blind process of optimization will lead to addictive foods that people eat until they're obese, because that's what maximizes profits for the food industry.

It's not much different for Facebook. A blind process of engagement and relevance optimization leads to a more addictive product that steals more and more of your attention.

It's also not much different for Google. A blind process of information gathering leads to a more privacy violating product.

Different companies have different optimization processes depending on their business models, and they don't need to be made out of evil or have malevolent intent to end up having (potentially) evil outcomes.

Maro8• 8 years ago

People are in charge of their own diet. People are in charge of their own time, how they spend it, on the Internet or offline. Blaming big corporations and capitalism is a sorry excuse for making bad decisions.

Yizahi2• 8 years ago

There is unfortunately a big disconnect between C-level people and regular users. C-levels believe, truly believe, that they are creating a good thing with spying(1) on users to create more and more customized web experience and of course custom ads. They also consider ads as good in general.

(Some) users think that instead it's an uncontrolled full speed descent towards mountain cliff. Other users just aren't thinking about this at all, but I highly doubt that any one of them would ever join side of C-levels in this.

(1) I'm using correct word instead of what C-levels prefer, because "metadata is spying" obviously. Just like it is spying even if I don't record your private conversations, but "only" stalk you 24/7 from afar and record all around you, who you communicate with etc.

Yizahi2• 8 years ago

Here is a more detailed opinion on (1) written by Bruce Schneier:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/03/metadata_surv...

justfor1comment• 8 years ago

MZ is trying to do the right thing, overall. But results matter. If I am trying really hard not to kill people but inadvertently kill a few while providing employment for thousands of soldiers, won't a judge completely ignore that good side of me when sentencing? This is why we need laws and regulations to prevent FB from inadvertently killing democracy.

chrischen• 8 years ago

Nobody will tell you straight up they are evil.

It’s the things they do, that they may not even be aware of.

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/22/facebook-removing-onavo...

aaroninsf• 8 years ago

This. Many of Zuckerberg's public statements, which are presumably largely considered and vetted, display a profound (I would say willful) naivety–political, social, psychological.

The presumption that it's "just business" and that the culture at large should if it wants different behavior change the rules is going to prove the epitaph of this generation of "technology" companies.

The sad part is that absent internal regulation and correction, the inevitable result will be regulatory backlash and the quelling of the next generations' wiser efforts.

It's already well underway in the EU. Once the traitors are out and with them that -sshat Pai is gone, you can expect a time of reckoning cum payback and there is no more obvious shiny target than Facebook.

The unrelenting drip of scandals, married to tin-eared and hollow-sounding reassurances, is building up quite the pyre.

Aside: a close family member who had personal access to MZ quit recently. Their take is quite different: at the executive level, many people know exactly what they're doing and why it's unethical shading into illegal.

skywhopper• 8 years ago

You don't have to actively wish ill on society to damage it. The thing is, Zuckerberg has a level of power that in many ways is unprecedented. I don't think he has poor intentions, but his and Facebook's naivete about the impacts of their every decision, and the emergent properties of the systems they are creating, make them truly dangerous.

gowld2• 8 years ago

I don't think that what MZ thinks is the right thing is the right thing. That's what evil means.

InclinedPlane• 8 years ago

"Evil" is a poor concept. Intention is mostly irrelevant, actions and outcomes are more important. If your actions contribute to "bad things" happening, if you are well aware that this is the case, and if you do not adequately make changes to avoid having your actions contribute to bad outcomes then you are complicit. Facebook is complicit in numerous "bad things", ranging from election interference, the spread of conspiracy theories and hatred, and crimes against humanity including genocide. The fact that FB does not take this complicity seriously or to heart is a resounding indictment of the entire organization. Whether it is "evil" or not, it is complicit in an enormous amount of malfeasance.

drb912• 8 years ago

If you have to trust the CEO, you’re gonna get burned. They have different interests than you. The only thing you should trust him to do is make more money if possible.

marichards• 8 years ago

Facebook is evil. Obviously, the "devil" is evil, but is his finger? Is his kneecap? Is his moment eating lunch? We don't judge an entity as evil or not because all components are not evil, we judge it based on its broad activity. Much of the devil's components might not know how evil what's in his head is.

Facebook created a social network, great, but it used it as a mass surveillance system, without user consent, to spy on some of the most sensitive parts of people's lives. It spied on those who didn't even use the service. It helped those who'd harm society target those most vulnerable with lies. It offered discrimination as a service with audience targeting. It abused its monopoly. It threatened those that would reveal the truth with lawsuits. It corrupted the security of financial and health services online. It used it's audience for psychological experimentation and targeted their vulnerability to addiction. Facebook is evil, but much of what it and many of its employees do day to day may seem like nothing worse than flexing a knee.

justicezyx• 8 years ago

I dont think you use the evil consistently in the message.

inferiorhuman• 8 years ago

MZ is trying to do the right thing, overall.

Since when? This is at the top of my Reddit front page right now:

https://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-okay-but-youve...

The lede:

Last week, we reported that, as a sophomore at Harvard, Facebook founder and CEO Mark Zuckerberg used Facebook members' login information to break into their private email accounts and read their emails.

Yes, it's an old story, but Zuck has been very plainly amoral for a long time now.

Rjevski4• 8 years ago

What is Snapchat doing?

Going bankrupt?

kin• 8 years ago

IMO there's still a lot of room for Snap to do something. They still have an opportunity to seize, same for Twitter.

For example, there's a subset of content creators on Snap that charges for premium content (a separate private account w/ more content). Subscription and payment is done outside of the Snap app. Cancellations and payment confirmations are all done manually. I'm not even sure if Snap realizes this but they can totally make money off of it.

Now that Evan is being more open and less dictatorial, someone will notice and bring opportunities like these to his attention.

qubax• 8 years ago

Nobody trusts facebook? Is that why half the world is on facebook readily giving them their private info?

Twitter is a hot mess? Is that why the president and most of the journalists are on twitter?

Who cares what snapchat is doing?

I don't get articles like this. What's the point?

sandworm101• 8 years ago

"Inside it, employees were connecting with each other, at times emotionally, about their childhoods, hopes, and fears. Council etiquette prohibits me from telling you what others shared, but during one of my turns with the geode, I told the group an embarrassing childhood story about getting sick during a family beach vacation. "

Scientology much?

Really. This is exactly the technique used to indoctrinate people into a cult. It is all about getting emotional hooks into the new member of the group. Secrecy, and the corresponding threat it implies, that creates loyalty. Knowing the secrets of others fosters group identity.

Snap probably doesn't realize it, but this will not end well. It does not scale. Eventually "counsel" will become a secret room for the "in" people of the leadership team. Knowledge of secrets will divide groups. Eventually something will happen and things will implode.

40acres• 8 years ago

Snap's recent performance and articles like this just solidify my view that Spigel is a bad CEO and that the Snap board has very little they can do to turn the company around. Evan seems like a great product guy but when it comes to executing as CEO he needs a lot of help. The fact that the board has not gotten a COO on board to help guide him is an indictment on them. Corporate governance in the valley continues to fall short.

partiallypro3• 8 years ago

I'm not sure he's a great product guy...what product do they have? Filters? Auto-deleting messages? Spectacles? What a boondoggle that has been. The mere fact that he says the company is a photography company should be enough to make any investor flee.

madrox• 8 years ago

I once had a discussion with someone who does brand auditing for a living, and they said the brand perception of social media in general (and FB specifically) is very similar to the IRS.

Whether FB is evil or not (it's a very rare person who tries to be evil), no one loves them. People only love communities they can wrap their arms around, and past a certain size that isn't possible.

If Snapchat is lucky that'll happen to them one day, too.

Hysterisis• 8 years ago

Even as someone who hates typical definitions of professionalism, sitting in a kindergarten like room and having DNMs with my colleagues sounds like one of the least professional things I can think of.

bogomipz• 8 years ago

"The meeting I attended started with an employee lighting a candle in the center of the circle to dedicate the session to a cause, and then proceeded with a series of free-association prompts. A moderator asked us to tell a story about our names or a memory related to summer. Outside the round room, morale at Snap has been low recently. Inside it, employees were connecting with each other, at times emotionally, about their childhoods, hopes, and fears."

This could be scene from an episode of HBO's Silicon Valley. This seems more like an exercise in humiliation than morale boosting. What's next Ayahuasca ceremonies, shaman, drum circles, primal scream therapy?

I would quit before I participated in any of this nonsense. This CEO sounds like a real piece of work. This is why you shouldn't buy stock that withholds all voting rights from public shareholders.

saurik• 8 years ago

Never mind Snapchat, we all know this is Venmo's moment (if only users hadn't been so foolish as to reject the fun social media experience Venmo offers :/).

https://youtu.be/BWFLztKBrLY

Nobody Trusts Facebook, Twitter Is a Hot Mess, What Is Snapchat Doing?

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