The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burned Through $2B

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

by dragonsh • 8 years ago

168 108 8 years ago

unmole• 8 years ago

Original title: The Billionaires and The Guru: How a Family Burned Through $2 Billion

The original title is a much better title, not sure why it was changed... This is more so a story about the brothers and the spiritual leader who apparently took a bunch of cash from them, not about abuses of India's ruling class

B-Con• 8 years ago

Now it's

How an Indian family lost $2 Billion

I think we're on the 3rd title.

xaranke2• 8 years ago

As someone who left India for the US, this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning.

More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

sn413• 8 years ago

Nothing has changed. The govt. has gotten better at media manipulation, and/or the media has decided it is easier to get into bed with the govt. Reliance Jio Institute has been declared an "institute of eminence" on par with IISc, and above many IITs. The industrialists hailed demonetisation. Ordinary citizens have few opportunities to enter the stock market, since it is inundated with foreign institutional investors, who may withdraw money at the drop of a hat, thus increasing volatility. There is no critical analysis allowed or taken seriously. Pre-2016, I was depressed at the turn of events. Post-Trump, Post-Brexit, I just think this is the new normal for the planet. Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.

That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.

djaychela• 8 years ago

Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.

Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)

eahman022• 8 years ago

Those who don't think the way you do are not "aggressively stupid", they just have other interests. That kind of dismissal doesn't help anybody.

hesarenu2• 8 years ago

IITs attract the best students because of the opportunity it provides. But on its own is it know for it's academics? Do they carry out high calibre research?

heavenlyblue4• 8 years ago

To be fair, being from a Russian family and having re-watched quite a few news programmes from the 90s I was amazed at how liberal the media was back then. I did not expect that.

It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.

codeisawesome• 8 years ago

Please do expand on that last sentence :-) what are the general principles you see?

hkai• 8 years ago

You probably shouldn't. I'm in a similar situation and although back home there are all these fancy cafes, relaxed and familiar environments and great people, the significant differences become apparent only in crisis.

When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing.

The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.

heavenlyblue4• 8 years ago

Isn't getting a Hard Rock Cafe just a more upscaled version of having McDonald's move in your town?

blntechie• 8 years ago

How is the situation in Kerala different from what happened in Peurto Rico or Houston?

th1nkdifferent• 8 years ago

I don't share the negative sentiments expressed by others in response to your question. I think things have changed significantly for the better. I'll leave you with these two images - you can decide for yourself if anything has changed:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in...

Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m...

Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better.

You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.

coldtea2• 8 years ago

These two images don't answer the "if it's just a facade with air conditioning" question.

This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights).

Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.

danieka• 8 years ago

I'm struck by the difference between India and Burma and Pakistan.

throwaway6789• 8 years ago

Looking at the comparison for Kerala, I really feel sad and worried. It doesn't look like much improved for my state during this period. And everyone likes to talk about Kerala being number one!

blackoil2• 8 years ago

Really impressive, particularly growth of all those around Bangkok. Is Modi effect truly this far flung, or is NASA image just of higher resolution now showing lots of smaller dots?

Considering electricity consumption growth rate is still same or maybe a little slower then the decade before I don't see much of an achievement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India#De...

geerlingguy• 8 years ago

I'm on an astrophotography kick lately, so the only thing I see is "increase in light pollution". So goes progress, but it would be neat if some places found ways to advance without also leaving behind the vision of the stars that used to fascinate and inspire so many people.

hiyer• 8 years ago

Why do you feel the US is better in this respect? The US has several other obvious advantages compared to India, but equality of wealth distribution and lack of crony capitalism don't seem to be among them.

rayiner• 8 years ago

You think the US has wealth inequality! In India its common for upper middle class people to have several full-time servents. Not only that, they are a whole separate class of people. They are treated like servents, not like employees.

distant_hat• 8 years ago

India is far more unequal than the US actually and crony capitalism is also much worse here. I've lived in the US for 8 years and would be bang in the middle class there, I have 3 full time house helps which I couldn't even think about in the US.

sandGorgon• 8 years ago

there's no better time to come back. Do come. Its about what you can create in the world's largest democracy.

Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?

come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.

mcny4• 8 years ago

The difference is that the Americans, the Brits, and the Chinese can leave any time they want. I've talked to a few Indians and that tried to defend the mob that killed some guy for allegedly coming beef. More embarrassingly, they defended the police for taking a sample of the questionable meat for lab testing to check if it was beef.

I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef.

Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.

toast0• 8 years ago

Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?

From what I can tell from afar, access to courts in India is mixed at best. A constitutional guarantee only goes as far as its enforced/enforcable.

sbmthakur2• 8 years ago

More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.

kamaal2• 8 years ago

>I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

That's entirely your decision to make.

But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure.

But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense.

I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.

naravara• 8 years ago

this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning.

In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress.

If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse.

(Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)

rconti• 8 years ago

I think another hard thing is that your expectations will change the longer you live in the US (and as things change in the US as well), so what would have been a remarkable improvement to you before might be "not enough".

Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.

vernie• 8 years ago

Is this number of title changes normal?

QML• 8 years ago

I’ve seen some writer change their article titles a few times after publishing — I would guess they’re trying to A/B test or just indecisive.

rockyj• 8 years ago

And here I thought that "Wild Wild Country" on Netflix was too crazy to be true and something like that would not happen again. (*fixed typos)

arjun27• 8 years ago

* Wild Wild Country

rishabhd• 8 years ago

Trust me, you haven't seen anything at all.

heavenlyblue4• 8 years ago

It's funny that people are downvoting you for your manner, but frankly speaking that's exactly the reaction I had to the post.

"Too good to be true"? You're joking, right?

There's loads of people in the world with a high enough status, but who still are gullible enough because they never really had any deep relationships. Be it friends, lovers or family.

That's exactly the kind of weaknesses upon which people build religions.

dalbasal• 8 years ago

To me, the unique aspect of that docu was the "banality of.." perspective.

About from a quirky sexual liberalism, the teachings were standard fare for a religion. The phenomenon was also unremarkable, the the grand scheme of things. The world is full of holy men, holy places, masters and devotees. It always has been. Any religion with a an origin story features a story like this. The old Hebrew/jehovist religion centred around prophet-leaders. Moses was a holy man, along with the other prophets. Jesus was such a holy man. Mohammed. Budha. Zoroaster, probably. The founders of most old catholic orders... You might even include communist "holy men" or other secular/political movements in that overall group.

Basically, we can just take it as a given that holy men with an extremely devoted group of devotees will emerge here and there.

At that point it's up to a St. Peter, or a Ma Anand Sheila to do something with it.

Just before wild wild country begins, America experienced the Jonestown bloodbath. Its definitely a history that repeats.

eternauta3k2• 8 years ago

Re: Buddha, a rich man bankrupted himself in order to donate a huge park to the Sangha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetavana#Donation_of_Jetavana

blackoil2• 8 years ago

When in mood search for Asaram, Rampal, Nirmal Baba, Sant Ram Rahim. These are prominent Godmans with millions of followers and 100s of million of dollars worth of empires prosecuted in last few years for charges including rape, fraud, murder etc. Courts now has grown some balls to take action against these people, despite risk of mob violence. These Godman's had patronage from all political parties as they control too big a vote bank. Some of these like Nirmal baba, Sathya Sai baba are so comical and ridiculous, Borat will have trouble spoofing them.

In India, people trust gurus and babas even for problems like pollution, water conservation, economy and healthcare. I have seen software engineers, working in top tier US product companies, who believe India had planes, nuclears 1000s of years back.

55555• 8 years ago

Sounds to me like two indian brothers realized that a likely result of an arbitration would indirectly bankrupt their public companies so they started funneling money to a person they trust to hold onto it for them. just my 2c

iamshs2• 8 years ago

This makes sense. This cult has been on a real estate buying spree near their HQ. Even threatening farmers who refuse to sell.

test001only2• 8 years ago

It is interesting to see Indians talking of themselves and India as a separate entity. Now, I am fine with people moving out of the country and I can understand the appeal. A lot of problems in India have been long solved in the west and there are problems which are unique to India. But it is hypocritical to blame the ills on "India" as if it exists without it's people. Citizens make a country and they are equally responsible whether they like it or not.

oblio2• 8 years ago

While in general it's true, and probably applies to India, I'd like to point out a major gap in your analysis: external factors.

North Korea is basically propped up by China. If China would stop backing the regime, either the local citizens or intervention from South Korea could make the regime collapse overnight.

Eastern Europe had regimes enforced by the USSR. Same story. See 1989 (luckily for these countries).

sandworm1012• 8 years ago

Not sure about that. The regime seems to tick along with next to nothing. Pushing that to literally nothing might not make much difference. They would just move from 95% blackmarket to 100.

visarga• 8 years ago

Citizens make a country and they are equally responsible whether they like it or not.

Can't agree with equal responsibility. Children, for example, are not.

eternauta3k2• 8 years ago

These children grow up to be adults, who are by extension also not responsible. No one is "responsible" for these impersonal processes.

herbst• 8 years ago

It's a little bit unrelated but the ugly Indian explains a bit about exactly this issue Indians seem to have, in a interesting Ted talk.

https://youtu.be/tf1VA5jqmRo

warent• 8 years ago

I've never heard of The Ugly Indian before and your comment came across as totally shocking to say the the least. So relieved when I saw it was his name (or the name of the movement?)

pitt1980• 8 years ago

Not totally sure I understand your point, but I think that I don't agree with this at all.

In any particular country, each citizen, of course, plays their own tiny part, but ultimately, its truly a tiny part.

For the vast majority of people, they make better decisions thinking about the path of a country as an impersonal force that they can react and respond to, but have functionally no actual control over

when you aggregate the political will of 800 million people, it is largely an impersonal force

test001only2• 8 years ago

Aggregate political will is a feature of democracy. The fact that any single person on his/her own wish cannot make a big impact change is how a democracy is designed to work. For a democracy to work people need to take active part in the political process including things like consensus building. Changes start at grassroot level and is usually localised. You would have more impact at your constituency level than at state or national level. But the fact is that significant number of people do not even fulfill their most basic duty of voting.

gregcrv• 8 years ago

I don’t think it’s unique to India unfortunately. I feel this is also strong in the US where the « people » and the « government » always seem very separated and opposing each other. I am also annoyed by the characterization of « government land » rather than « public land ». Not sure if the low turnout in US elections is the cause or consequence of that separation.

xaranke2• 8 years ago

As someone who has spent a majority of their formative years outside India and always felt out of place when I lived there, I definitely see India as a separate entity. The only really Indian thing about me is that I hold the passport.

alasdair_3• 8 years ago

It is interesting to see Indians talking of themselves and India as a separate entity.

Apropos of that, I have an Indian acquaintance who is an activist, focusing on women's rights and poverty. She's told a couple of stories stories about going into tiny, remote villages in India and telling people about their basic rights under the law, only to be asked "what is India?" and having to explain that the place these people live is called "India".

legolas24124• 8 years ago

Probably because India is the name in english. It is called Bharat in Hindi, other names in other vernaculars.

sandworm1012• 8 years ago

Dangerous logic. We may have to blame americans for thier country too.

ekianjo• 8 years ago

This is a naive comment. By far and large what a few individuals can do is extremely limited compared to institutions or large companies. Belonging to a country is not equal to having power to change things. For example, even if your city think they need an airport, they cant build one by themselves out of nothing. Infrastructure and anything related to long term investment of resources is completely out of reach of individuals.

eevilspock2• 8 years ago

Yeah colonialism and Britain's control, exploitation and distortion of India over 300 years has nothing to do with India's problems.

"The West" "solved" a bunch of its problems as it created problems in the rest of the world.

atlantic3• 8 years ago

Empires have been doing what empires do since the beginning of recorded history. The West is no exception in this respect.

madengr2• 8 years ago

What’s the deal with these Gurus, and how can they have millions of followers? They are simply cult leaders and fraudsters.

kevin_thibedeau• 8 years ago

Charismatic narcissists can manipulate gullible people the world over.

gowld• 8 years ago

"Gurus" in India are "Churches" in USA.

madengr2• 8 years ago

Oh, I agree. I guess guru and cults have 24x7 compounds; churches don't.

fellellor• 8 years ago

It's not that simple. Indian societies are ancient and have deep flaws. Usually involving social division, superstition, oppression of some kind or the other. In such situations Spiritual gurus saying the right thing in a sincere manner manage to build a large following over a period of years. The need for such "therapists" is real and cuts across income levels.

Eventually though as the guru's following explodes, big money comes into play, and money corrupts so you end up with the gurus or their followers exploiting their situations for profit or worse.

mbrumlow3• 8 years ago

Side note, has anybody read the TOS at bloomberg? Along with getting violation notices? I MUST allow JS?

https://imgur.com/a/hsTANvy

Also, their entire TOS looks like one of those shrink wrap licenses. I feel like people really don't understand how the internet works, and in the long run they are simply going to break it if the law dictates what software I have to run or not run to view a website.

EDIT: Link to TOS: https://www.bloomberg.com/notices/tos/

Really guys, this sort of stuff should not stand, the idea that they own the ability for you to link to their site is hideous. Even if they are "granting" that ability today allowing people to front like they have that power should be stopped. Otherwise next generations will just obey because "it's in the tos", "it's the law".

apexalpha• 8 years ago

Isn't the 'you need JS' in order to let the captcha work?

I believe I have to whitelist certain scripts in uMatrix before those things work (or even appear!).

edit: also the website just works for me even without scripts. I think your IP has triggered a flood warning leading the captcha and for that to work you need JS (which makes sense).

mbrumlow3• 8 years ago

Regardless of why I was interrupted, the TOS is total crap.

eric24234• 8 years ago

Any indian who has some understanding of veda and caste system will immediately identify the problem here. It is run by singhs and singhs are not hindus by that i mean they discard varna system, vedas and caste system. The current government BJP is a strong religious organization with Brahmins in key positions who have lots to lose if caste system is abolished. The move by the indian BJP government is to progress hindutva ideology.

The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burned Through $2B

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