For babies, life may be like an LSD trip

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/babies-experience-life-as-an-lsd-trip-as-a-result-of-their-high-metabolism.24941/

by jgalvez • 8 years ago

78 79 8 years ago

raypeatforum.com

anc84• 8 years ago

Alternatively: Adults experience Baby-like consciousness during an LSD trip.

sundvor• 8 years ago

Alternatively 2: Adults experience headaches reading extended segments of bolded _underlined_ text.

AstralStorm2• 8 years ago

Needs more colors, blink and marquee tags.

ryanmercer2• 8 years ago

Hmmmmm...

Seems like "I found these few studies, it must mean babies are super humans that are tripping constantly!"

Or healing happens faster because cell-division has a greater impact given the greater impact it has on total number of cells, and an abundance of stem cells still present as they develop helps with healing alongside growth and development. Then the fact that MOST things they encounter in the world are new to them which can instill a sense of awe and wonder...

LSD is cool but people need to chill out about it. It might have some therapeutic uses, it can absolutely cause neat visuals and even have you had lucid dream-like fantasies but come on man stop trying to compare everything to, or cure everything with, LSD and other psychotropics.

skate22• 8 years ago

Not calling this post out specifically, but drugs make for good clickbait. Drugs in general are 'in' right now, and i agree that it's pretty forced these days.

I have a very small sample size, but the friends i have who tripped regularly (not just on lsd) went on to have serious mental health issues. I know correlation =! causation, but it scares me how big the drug culture is becoming.

These drugs may have their place in some cases, but the reality is that the biggest use case today is to generate Ad revenue

senorjazz2• 8 years ago

can confirm. Same with many of my friends. All heavy weed smokers, all used psychedelics. A worrying % went on to have some mental health issues.

Now I know all the pro-weed people say "yeah but it is those pre-disposed to having schizophrenic episodes". Perhaps, but at the sample rate in my experience and others who have met later on the % is far higher than I would have expected to be.

Same for just weed smoking. I post on a music forum, where near all members used to be heavy smokers . And anecdotally, about 80% had mental problems due to weed smoking. The cycle is clear. Heavy weed smoking for years. Stop enjoying it, but have become dependant. Come home from work. Smoke, freak out for an hour, effects wear off, smoke again, repeat. This goes on for 1-2 years before the realisation hits in, smoking is not good for me any more

------------------ for the record all were also poly-drug users, not exclusively smokers, so it could be caused by other drugs or the combination of. But I have no doubt it saying, this is not only people pre-disposed to mental health issues

itchyjunk• 8 years ago

Well, if by 'in right now' you mean at least 7k - 9k years you might be right [0][1]. If you believe what ethnobotanist like Terence Mckenna [2] say, then it's much older and has shaped the hominids evolution quite significantly. It seems almost all cultures found local hallucinogens and exploited them heavily for ceremony, healing etc and was strong part of who they were [3].

Anecdotally, I think hallucinogen just highlighted mental issues that were already there. I also know some really smart people who have done their share of it with no problem (that i can see). If I could go back in time, i'd do it all again. We, as humans, were pretty open about all this not too long ago. I am happy to see a small number never stopped and psychonauts [4] though not always scientific, have kept exploring and bringing back ideas and experiences for these alternate states of reality.

Tangentially, Carlos Castaneda's [5] books were some of the best i've read and would recommend it to people.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#History

[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20928025-400-earliest...

[2] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqqpj/psilocybin-the-mus...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_entheogenic/hallucinog...

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda

collyw2• 8 years ago

Drugs have been "in" for centuries.

dgzl• 8 years ago

but the reality is that the biggest use case today is to generate Ad revenue

I appreciate your comment overall, but this sentence makes me think you don't know much about drugs or drug culture, or the actual effects of drugs. I'm also slightly worried about the general popularity in current society and media, however.

blubb-fish4• 8 years ago

there is nothing about babies being super humans and also nothing about cell-division or anything about healing ... did you even bother reading the post?

agumonkey• 8 years ago

Also I wonder if the opposite is true, when you consider how intense baby screams are, for a toddler, it must be the equivalent of a deep horror to us, even though it could just be a unknown face in the room or a tiny bump on a table.

clevershot2• 8 years ago

I had LSD once when I was a young adolescent. It was by far the greatest drug related experience I ever had. So many colors, thoughts and stories. Sleeping the next day was difficult though.

Afterwards, I never felt any bodily urge to take it again, but, my mind was very keen to another round. So much, that I got scared, and never did it again.

Maybe I should give it another shot now that I have had babies

Nursie2• 8 years ago

Few people end up taking it habitually. That's not to say none do.

I had it when I was a late teen, enjoyed it, took it again a number of times (7/8?) into my early 20s, but by the last time I just found it boring. I think most people have some fun with it and move on.

clevershot2• 8 years ago

What is the worst that could happen? You hear all these stories

Asking for a friend.

golergka• 8 years ago

While a lot of this makes great sense, this:

Blake thought that the doors on perception are artificially kept semi-closed for cultural reasons - i.e. the ability to focus and do work for the enrichment of the powers that be

Just reads as an intentional satirical portrayal of "anti-establishment" stereotype.

thinkingemote• 8 years ago

I've also read a study that images the brain on LSD which shows that there's less activity in perception which kind of goes against the folk story of LSD opening one up to input. What happens is that some input gets stopped and so, common to all illusions, the brain creates stuff to fill in the gaps. This might be just to do with hallucinations though.

In other words, LSD closes the doors of perception rather than opens them!

thecatspaw• 8 years ago

how much do we know exactly about the mentioned region? Do we know if its purpose is interpreting the input, or filtering?

If its purpose is filtering, then less activity would allow more input.

Galaxeblaffer2• 8 years ago

It's just weird how persistent the halucinations are.. Like if you look at a painting it will look totally different than normal, you will probably see shapes of weird things a bit like Deep Dream's terrifying faces and dogs but a bit different. You can then leave said painting for 2 hours and come back to find the painting has the exact alterations from reality as before.

Because of this i'm more inclined to think that it's more like an unfiltered view of reality. Normally the brain will end up with the final image that we call reality but on lsd some of the last filters are missing showing you the world in a different way. This could also explain why perception centers show less activity in that they don't put in the last work to show us the normal image without weird artifacts as faces, animals, fractal patterns and colored light.

Cthulhu_2• 8 years ago

Not just cultural reasons though, imagine you were tripping all the time. The brain protects itself. Likewise how you can't be awake all the time.

callesgg4• 8 years ago

Makes logical sense to me.

A baby has nothing but its own genetically inherited model worldview to map its sensor input to.

A model worldview that is primarily concerned with faces, treats, hunger and feelings.

I takes many years to map these phenomena to a fuller model of the objective world.

The brain and therefore the human consciousness cannot see the world as it is; the brain gets its information through sensory input. For the input to make sense it needs to be fitted to a model worldview (a table is only viewable as a table once the mess of colors coming from the eyes can be mapped to the representation of a table)

s-shellfish4• 8 years ago

I just feel like comparing a baby's experience to someone on lsd would likely mean language/models don't exist, therefore self doesn't exist, logic doesn't exist therefore cause and effect don't exist, or at least everything our natural vocabulary/modeling structures allows us to connect with, like you are saying.

Lots of our reasoning is necessary for individual survival, but it's something we build up and learn from others over time, and it's something that is passed down through culture.

I would just imagine that being a baby or being on lsd is similar to no ways of chopping the world up, and no deep rooted ideas of the true nature of our experiences. I don't think you need drugs to get there or need to have/be a baby. I don't think it's much different than the purpose of attaining enlightenment, from the Buddhist perspective.

callesgg4• 8 years ago

I would assume that cause and effect is one of the few things that a baby does understand.

One one level: It might be that the baby does not understand cause and effect, but it certainly acts in relation to it.

"I cry cause i know that will cause me to feel better."

The baby don't understand the sub components of why one thing causes the other. (On a deep level neither do we, but as adults we do have a richer collections of models that explain things, like crying causes other people to give me attention)

hkai• 8 years ago

Blake thought that the doors on perception are artificially kept semi-closed for cultural reasons - i.e. the ability to focus and do work for the enrichment of the powers that be.

Statements like that sound a bit political and make me doubt what he is writing.

r00fus• 8 years ago

Top researchers on psychedelics agree with the author - psychedelic use often causes users to question authority. Notable UK researcher Dr David Nutt says that psychedelics have a political impact.

krageon• 8 years ago

Is it really political to stop and think about what you are doing for the pure gain of someone else? I should think that's just critical thinking at work.

jjuel• 8 years ago

Not necessarily, but saying that the "doors are kept shut artificially" is something straight out of r/conspiracy.

toast_coder• 8 years ago

Yes, it really is.

cr1895• 8 years ago

There was an outpouring of scientific research into LSD and what it might be useful for in the years following its synthesis. Towards the 70s-80s, research efforts were quashed and its use became increasingly and negatively politicized. It is inexorably political.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_dieth...

I'd recommend Michael Pollan's recent book, "How to Change your Mind" if you'd like to read more.

blubb-fish4• 8 years ago

it's true though - society and culture collectively create taboos of various kinds to organize group behavior according to goals like wealth maximization, power and hierarchy conservation.

ojhughes• 8 years ago

I took a strong hit of acid when I was a teenager at Glastonbury festival. I ended up falling into a delusional, catatonic state where I thought I was in some kind of war zone surrounded by dead people. Thankfully some friends found me and talked me down. I hope babies don’t have an experience like that!

myth_drannon• 8 years ago

They do have, it's called baby night terrors. The baby wakes up in the middle of the night in some sort of trip and can scream for hours.

alex_hitchins• 8 years ago

I thought babies were also known as night terrors...

jeandejean• 8 years ago

I'm a bit confused... Isn't it an article encouraging consuming LSD?

omeid2• 8 years ago

Encouraging is a strong word, but if outlining the positive impact of something encourages you to consider it, is that bad?

joombaga• 8 years ago

It sure could be, if you take action without considering the negative impact as well.

dqpb• 8 years ago

Welcome to HN. You will find a lot of posts encouraging drug use making it to the front page.

ryanmercer2• 8 years ago

Welcome to Silicon Valley. One year it's modafinil and adderall, one year it's nootropics, one year it's psychotropics. Rinse and repeat.

DonHopkins2• 8 years ago

HBO totally nailed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2cEaBIDAY4

salvar• 8 years ago

Is that forbidden?

blubb-fish4• 8 years ago

To some extent, yes. No need for confusion.

miguelrochefort• 8 years ago

If you're not familiar with Ray Peat, here's what the Peatarian diet looks like:

- 1 L milk (add salt and sugar)

- 1 L orange juice (add salt and sugar)

- 1 raw carrot

- bone broth

- NO PUFA (Omega 3/6)

jgalvez• 8 years ago

This is an absurd over simplification.

His eating guidelines are much, much more extensive:

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/ray-peat-diet-foo...

deepvibrations• 8 years ago

I am convinced that at a young age we experience things in a way very similar to a psychedelic state. I always thought babies are in more of a DMT-state (my experiences smoking NN-DMT gave me this belief) and I guess as they get older, they slowly come into reality, so between 2 and 5, I guess it is more of an acid/mushrooms level of experience.

empath752• 8 years ago

I don’t have much to say about this but I did get saved from a fairly bad trip by finding teletubbies on tv at 6am.

derefr• 8 years ago

Fun thought: would chronic LSD administration (i.e. making a person never not be tripping for ~1mo at a time) enable language learning at the level babies are capable of?

senorjazz2• 8 years ago

No. It would destroy them mentally and permanently.

empath752• 8 years ago

My (now) brother-in-law sold acid when we were in high school, and there was a point of time in our senior year where he took acid almost daily for 2 or 3 months. If you'd asked me to describe him in one word when we were 20, i'd have said 'burnout'.

Believe it or not, he's fine today. He quit doing drugs in his early 20s after he got arrested, got a business degree, and hasn't touched them in 15 or 20 years. You'd never guess that he's done acid a hundred times or more by talking to him.

collyw2• 8 years ago

Psychedelics build up tolerance very quickly so it would be difficult to achieve.

d33• 8 years ago

Not sure if it's even possible. I heard that after taking LSD you can't really trip for a few days.

rm_-rf_slash• 8 years ago

All that would do is lead to severe memory loss and mental problems. Look up MKUltra.

efficax• 8 years ago

Who is ray peat and why do we care? This is some late 90s weird internet. It’s good to see the crazy is still going but this stuff seems more speculative than evidence based

Flenser• 8 years ago

from the first PDF linked:

Raymond F. Peat, Director, Blake College, Eugene, Oregon, and Nutritional Consultant, Medical Diet Service, Portland, Oregon. M.A. General Studies, University of Oregon, 1960. Ph.D., Biology, University of Oregon, 1972. 300'/2 N. Jefferson, Eugene, Oregon 97402.

skc• 8 years ago

I don't know about an LSD trip but I've often wondered what exactly a baby perceives while in the womb or as a newborn. Their brains aren't just sitting there as a blank state so they are experiencing something. I wouldn't at all be surprised if it's very trippy seeing as infants have literally nothing to hold onto to define reality as we see it.

I often watched my newborn staring off into empty space clearly perceiving /something/

Cthulhu_2• 8 years ago

Whatever it is, they remember it subconsciously - shushing a baby (like the calming type) and rocking (also works for adults) reminds them - subconsciously - of the sound of the mother's blood flow and movements.

paidleaf• 8 years ago

I don't know about an LSD trip but I've often wondered what exactly a baby perceives while in the womb or as a newborn.

I don't think they "consciously" perceive anything. But "unconsciously", we know that they perceive the mother's voice, smell, etc. They recognize words in the womb and they even react to it in the womb. And after birth, babies' prefer their mother's voice ( probably an evolutionary benefit ) over other people's voices. It's why a mother's voice has a calming/soothing effect on babies. It's pretty much trained in the womb to associate the mother's voice with safety and comfort and nourishment.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/08/babies-learn-recogniz...

neom• 8 years ago

Tangentially: I was reading a study about fMRI in dyslexia the other day, and it seemed to me to indicate that the area of the brain that has lower activity and blood flow in a dyslexic was the same area they found to be reducing activity and blood flow on psychedelics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29412010 / http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

For babies, life may be like an LSD trip

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