‘Gaming disorder’ is officially recognized by the World Health Organization

https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/18/gaming-disorder-is-officially-recognized-by-the-world-health-organization/

by mikece • 8 years ago

124 219 8 years ago

kingbirdy• 8 years ago

I'm curious why this needs its own definition, rather than being part of a larger "addiction disorder".

Because there is no larger “addiction disorder”, and trying to create one would have a messy and complex definition compared to distinct definitions that happen to share some features.

brandonjm2• 8 years ago

Yet the same organisation that seems to care so much about giving every little addiction it's own name also lumps every variety of autism under the same umbrella term.

gaius• 8 years ago

A Skinner box is a Skinner box. Whether that’s a pokie (FOBT), a free-to-play game, a social network or anything else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber#C...

jt2190• 8 years ago

I’m told that the World Health Organization’s International Classification of Diseases (ICD) was created to help epidemiologists in different countries share data. It may be, and I’m speculating here, that it’s rather easy to get something added to it, as long as there are enough researchers somewhere in the world who want it added.

Someone here must know a little more about the process by which new things are added to the ICD.

Mirioron3• 8 years ago

Because people who don't play games think it's weird that others are interested in things they don't like. So there must be something wrong with them.

There's a good reason why many psychologists and psychiatrists were against the inclusion of this in ICD-11 and why the DSM5 does not list it as an officially recognized disorder either.

hkmurakami• 8 years ago

Isn't it basically analogous to say sex addiction or porn addiction wrt the underlying psychology?

contravariant2• 8 years ago

For what it's worth "Gaming" is broad enough to capture pretty much any 'non-chemical' activity that can be addicting.

There's a somewhat grey area between "Gaming" and "Gambling", but I think it's fair to consider "Gambling" a subset of "Gaming" where the games actually pay out money (or something of monetary value). This probably doesn't match the WHO definition though.

gehwartzen• 8 years ago

There are people that spend most of their available hours staring at screens of graphs while trading various tokens in order to achieve the highest score... but of course we call them professionals not addicts.

oligopoly• 8 years ago

Next up Social Media Disorder (SMD), Internet Disorder.. I'd be surprised if the latter isn't a thing already

petercooper• 8 years ago

Netflix disorder, if people I hear having conversations are anything to go by.

ekianjo2• 8 years ago

i expect Wikipedia Disorder as well for people who are too curious and read too much. So basically any deviation from the normal boring person is a disorder,says the thought police.

creep3• 8 years ago

Yes, and anyone looking for help in managing their lives will get slapped with any such term and made to feel like deviants.

I've been "diagnosed" with all sorts of things. ADHD, ODD (obsessive defiance disorder), asperger's (ASD 1), GAD (generalized anxiety disorder), and I'm sure I qualify for others. The thing is, there was always this search like that to look for what was the ultimate cause for my distress. And then, after all that searching, nothing came of it because I grew as a person. And I think there's a small thing there, which is that if you have a diagnosis, you have an excuse, and oh, you'll have loads of friends with similar diagnoses who will encourage you to whine and wallow in it and make excuses, and there will even be competition as to who is the worse for it.

I think the system is very wrong.

perilunar• 8 years ago

I absolutely have wikipedia disorder. And google maps disorder.

We used to call jokingly call it being an 'information junkie', but it's real, not a joke.

brandonjm2• 8 years ago

What about television disorder, Netflix disorder? BBC News seem to be implying that 20 hours per week is too much [1]. I feel like most people that watch TV/Netflix/Youtube etc. would easily watch more than 3 hours a day. They also claim that if you're putting too much meaning on your online friendships that this is a bad thing. For many, their online friendships are the only ones they have, or they will be better and will be longer lasting than their school friendships.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44504683/embed

sasaf5• 8 years ago

This. Play 2 hours of videogames and babyboomer parents start loosing their minds (but not after spending the whole evening watching TV)

drdaeman• 8 years ago

Two suggestions, hopefully relevant to this forum (haha):

- Programming Disorder. For those weirdos always spending a huge chunk of their spare time before their desktops and laptops, hacking on something.

- Engineering Disorder. A superset, including the hardware-obsessed folks (e.g. electronic/radio engineering).

keerthiko2• 8 years ago

2. Increasing priority given to gaming to the extent that gaming takes precedence over other life interests and daily activities

This needs to be further qualified, such as by "over extended periods of time". If you spend a weekend prioritizing gaming over other life interests/activities, it's no different than having a crunch week at work and prioritizing work over life interests/activities, neither of which should be considered a disorder.

Edit: This is shoddy reporting on TechCrunch's part, the official WHO ICD listing [0] qualifies it thus:

The behaviour pattern is of sufficient severity to result in significant impairment in personal, family, social, educational, occupational or other important areas of functioning [...] The gaming behaviour and other features are normally evident over a period of at least 12 months in order for a diagnosis to be assigned, although the required duration may be shortened if all diagnostic requirements are met and symptoms are severe.

[0] https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/e...

widowlark• 8 years ago

"For a diagnosis to be made, the negative pattern of behavior must last at least 12 months: "It cannot be just an episode of few hours or few days," Poznyak said. However, exceptions can be made when the other criteria are met and symptoms are severe enough."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/health/video-game-disorder-wh...

keerthiko2• 8 years ago

Yep, see edit on my post.

ezoe• 8 years ago

If you are rich and no need to work, you hire the servants for your daily meals, hygiene, excretion, and/or remainder for take some sleep, playing game all day long for everyday isn't a disorder.

pdpi• 8 years ago

Not really. Personal, family, social functioning are all impaired still.

em3rgent0rdr• 8 years ago

Calling everything a disorder should be officially recognized as a disorder.

tomnipotent2• 8 years ago

This is the perfect word to call them.

   dis·or·der

   noun
   - a disruption of normal physical or mental functions; a disease or abnormal condition.

   verb
   - disrupt the systematic functioning or neat arrangement of.
   - disrupt the healthy or normal functioning of.

rhacker2• 8 years ago

So we're basically just replacing the word addiction now?

falcolas• 8 years ago

More accurately, addiction to the point it has a severe negative impact on the rest of the patient's life.

rhacker2• 8 years ago

I was severely addicted to video games when I was a kid. My parents kept saying I was going to be a garbage man (ignoring the insult to garbage men) I don't think it would be the norm, but because of my interest in games I was interested in computers and here I am. I'm not like a top earner 1M / year AI developer or anything, but it definitely didn't impact my life. Now if my parents had taken me to some kind of "gaming disorder" center to get fixed, I would.. probably be a garbage man right now.

Mirioron3• 8 years ago

A bad parent could easily make a child fit all the criteria given by just being a bad parent.

Something like this should not exist in the ICD. There should be a general addiction disorder that puts forth general criteria for showing that a person has an addiction for something.

This just looks like a scapegoat to me.

tomnipotent2• 8 years ago

There should be a general addiction disorder

Absolutely ridiculous. The entire point of identifying a disorder and defining the mechanisms for diagnosis is so that we can create treatment plans to help people overcome these issues. You don't treat gaming addiction the same way you would heroine, alcohol, or gambling.

dragonwriter4• 8 years ago

A bad parent could easily make a child fit all the criteria given by just being a bad parent.

That's just as true of lots of diagnoses of physical and mental conditions and injuries. (bone fractures and PTSD are obvious examples.) The fact that bad parenting can cause a condition doesn't invalidate the diagnosis of the condition.

Something like this should not exist in the ICD. There should be a general addiction disorder that puts forth general criteria for showing that a person has an addiction for something.

The inherent differences between different subjects of addiction require some source specific variation, but various addictive disorders in either the ICD or the DSM do have generally similar criteria.

This just looks like a scapegoat to me.

A scapegoat for what?

Mirioron3• 8 years ago

The fact that bad parenting can cause a condition doesn't invalidate the diagnosis of the condition.

You misunderstood me. The bad parent causes it by being there. If you removed the bad parent then there would be no problem.

One of the criteria (although not mentioned in this article) is that the person is having negative consequences happen in a family situation because of their gaming. A bad parent could cause these negative consequences by simply being a bad parent and as a result the kid could withdraw into gaming. With this disorder around the parent can simply blame the kid playing games without looking at their own behavior.

A scapegoat for what?

For people who alienate those close to them, so that they can blame something else other than their behavior. If a kid wants to interact with their family then they will.

creep3• 8 years ago

Oh! They've come up with a new disorder again. How nice.

nickjj2• 8 years ago

All 3 of the article's points could be applied to any hobby / passion driven profession.

Next up...

Guitar disorder

Karate disorder

Baseball disorder

Fast forward 10 years...

Someone coins the term "hobby disorder" after detecting numerous patterns of people wasting their life away on doing things they enjoy.

Fast forward 20 years...

Being passionate about anything is a thing of the past. Everyone works a corporate job at 1 of 5 companies in the world (people stopped innovating and a few large tech companies took over everything).

Sounds like a good way to begin the journey towards even more income disparity between the 1% and the rest of us.

</tinfoilhat>

mmirate3• 8 years ago

Being passionate about anything is a thing of the past. Everyone works a corporate job at 1 of 5 companies in the world (people stopped innovating and a few large tech companies took over everything).

Dumb question here: why is not having to feign passion for every single corner of technology (just to even get a chance at a foot in the door at each particular company) a bad idea?

beaconstudios• 8 years ago

But there aren't many people (as far as I'm aware?) who forgo self-maintenance to play guitar more and more. Games are uniquely positioned to get someone hooked in the same way that gambling is, because modern games are so well optimised for triggering dopamine release. It's certainly fuzzy, but there's a line between "I do this thing in most of my spare time because it's my passion" and "I neglect important aspects of my life because I'm spending so much time doing this thing".

nickjj2• 8 years ago

I think so. I was really addicted to playing the guitar when I was younger. You get that same dopamine release from learning a riff or finally getting through a solo without messing up (which you may end up trying 100 times in a row). Then once you pull it off, you do it again, and again and again because it feels good.

The same thing happens with any skill based activity. Like learning a 120 move form in Karate, or pitching a no hitter (where every single time you prevent a hit, you get that hit of dopamine), etc..

Or programming where you might spend 15 hours a day consumed with it, forgetting to eat, etc., where you might get hundreds of dopamine hits during that time frame. Each one being triggered by your app doing what you wanted it to do.

Some people have a ridiculous amount of determination and will not give up until they do what they set out to do. It doesn't matter if it's a video game or not, the activity will consume them. Video games just make it easier for more people to get addicted, but that deeply rooted dopamine cycle will affect you no matter what you do. If video games didn't exist, you would find something else.

meiraleal• 8 years ago

Fast forward 20 years...
Being passionate about anything is a thing of the past. Everyone works a corporate job at 1 of 5 companies in the world

And they play videogames to relax. And think life is good this way. Maybe today is the right time to avoid your dystopia.

Micrococonut5• 8 years ago

This is really funny. How much have you "innovated" while gaming? You are living under the thumb of entertainment media already. You're trapped in your time waster instead of innovating.

p3llin0r3• 8 years ago

WE GET IT, you're so smart and great because you don't like video games. We're really impressed over here.

ekianjo2• 8 years ago

Everything is a time waster until you know, investments pays off. Playing an instrument is a time waster until it turns into something you can market. Its difficult to judge future benefits of current actions.

_khau• 8 years ago

If you want to be overly reductionist about it, everything you will do in your life is a waste of time.

ourmandave• 8 years ago

Isn't there some overlap with gambling addiction, given the tactics used by games like Candy Crush, etc.?

kdll8• 8 years ago

Financial investing...

Micrococonut5• 8 years ago

Gamers are so sensitive about their addiction. Like an alcoholic being called out.

asfasgasg• 8 years ago

I don't think most people would advise "calling out" as an effective modality for approaching addicts in general.

Micrococonut5• 8 years ago

Good point. But I think the reactions are pretty telling that there is a real problem.

RcouF1uZ4gsC• 8 years ago

This whole thing with trying to place a medical diagnosis on behaviors is too much. This is really no better than the old Greek humors theory where if you were sad, you had an imbalance of melancholy.

There are a bunch of human behaviors, many of which are destructive, for which we don't really have insight into the underlying bio-physical explanation. Without that understanding, we should not be turning them into medical diagnoses.

contravariant2• 8 years ago

So basically you're against clinical psychology?

hugja• 8 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't South Korean have Gaming/Internet Addiction Centers for those with "Gaming Disorders"? I remember seeing something about this from a eSports documentary some time ago. Unfortunately I don't remember name of it.

Edit: found it https://youtu.be/of1k5AwiNxI?t=1150

georgios• 8 years ago

An important aspect of identifying new disorders or creating new diagnoses is that it facilitates access to treatment and services for those that need it.

That means that those few people that have serious consequences because of excessive gaming will have the right to get treatment covered by insurance.

Tycho3• 8 years ago

Video games are fine for some people, but for nerd-like personalities they present far too great a temptation to supplant real life goal obtainment with virtual status/achievement. I think its helpful to make people aware of this tendency, and unhelpful to wave it away with a comparison to some more widespread non-nerd past-time like watching TV or sports.

loupeabody2• 8 years ago

How precisely do you define "nerd-like" personalities and what is it about them that is susceptible to having a "gaming disorder"?

I feel like there's not much that would separate a gaming disorder from addictive behavior in general. So much so, actually, that to grant a special term for a video game related illness comes off as a little ridiculous.

always_good• 8 years ago

I'm not sure. When I look at video game addicts including myself in my late teens, I see someone who is addicted to credentializing in a virtual world. Maybe because everything is measurable unlike real life.

Doesn't seem like "addiction" alone communicates what's happening there.

Tycho3• 8 years ago

The essence of nerdiness is the elevation of the abstract at the expense of what's real, including the elevation of accomplishment in abstract domains (eg. video games) at the expense of developing social skills and progressing towards real life milestones, and the misunderstanding of social relations and social status owing to incorrect, reality-starved mental models. Often manifests itself in things like unwelcome pedantry.

As another poster (always_good) observes, there is a huge observable difference between video game addicts and substance abusers. I would not expect nerds to be substance abusers, and I would not expect substance abusers to be video game addicts, but everything about video games, in their construction of alternative realities and virtual goals and online communities, is like a glove tailored to the hand of nerd-dom.

bcheung2• 8 years ago

Agreed. It's too arbitrary. The pattern of addiction is the same. The method of delivery doesn't matter.

In terms of marketing and supporting affected gamers, sure. But from a medical perspective, it's as arbitrary as classifying behaviors on Monday as somehow being qualitatively different from behaviors on Tuesday.

bcheung2• 8 years ago

I understand and agree with part of your point, but there is also benefit to showing how they are all the same.

Showing how this parallels the exact same dopamine addiction patterns as gambling, porn, and social media provides greater insight and understanding.

The addiction research (especially with gambling) is more developed and provides much needed context and background.

People are going to think oh, it's just video games, no big deal. When they understand they are behaving exactly the same as a gambler, that might trigger something in them.

From a chemical / psychology perspective the brain operates the same no matter the domain.

ikeyany• 8 years ago

We wouldn't want to devalue real achievements like obsessively cultivating a large social media following, which isn't a mental disorder at all.

radisb• 8 years ago

Apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive

BlackFly• 8 years ago

to supplant real life goal obtainment with virtual status/achievement.

If you achieve a world first in an MMO, that achievement is as real as winning a sports championship. Even if you don't do something with a competitive component, some gaming achievements are as real and can be meaningful to the individual as something like climbing a mountain that everyone has climbed before. I don't agree that it is any way helpful to just characterize games as some kind of fake activity that requires special attention. Other nerd-like activities would be anime watching and book reading. I would argue both of those have examples of extreme addiction.

The diagnosis criteria makes clear that the problem is when you start sacrificing normal life functions to get your fix. Lots of marriages have fallen apart while one partner was out playing golf. It doesn't matter how much time you spend on something, what separates a disorder from a hobby is when you are letting other responsibilities suffer.

Tycho3• 8 years ago

The difference is temptation. Climbing a mountain is arduous. Addiction is not likely to be a problem. Even reading becomes kind of a slog. Video games are engineered to feel effortless and supply a constant steady buzz (or dopamine hit or whatever).

Being world No 1 in an MMO may be a real achievement, but for the millions of mediocre players, being a mediocre but persistent sportsman is likely to lead to far greater life outcomes as side effects. (And, again, physical limits stop the temptation becoming all consuming.)

Synaesthesia2• 8 years ago

I started playing Starcraft and watching it about 2 years ago. I’ve always had an obsessive mind and had stopped playing games since high school. It’s reached a point where I almost dedicate every free moment to playing. Games are incredibly addictive and it can be hard to stop. Back when I didn’t play I never understood why people play games so much. Games used to be only for geeks and boys but now everybody plays them. They are addictive and I think it’s a growing problem.

ComodoHacker• 8 years ago

I started playing Starcraft and watching it about 2 years ago

You mean Starcraft II?

Synaesthesia2• 8 years ago

Yeah SC2 although I played through the original and Brood war remastered as well, and checked some games.

rohitb91• 8 years ago

Yep I've had the same problem with counter-strike, SC2 and LoL. All my mind would be devoted to the games and I'd live in a state of ignorance bliss about my career, building up networks, building up any skills whatsoever.

Bad times.

ericdykstra5• 8 years ago

Starcraft and RTS is general is a great game that rewards higher-level strategy thinking, attention management, and a number of other skills. Becoming proficient is no joke, and pros need to spend more of their time practicing than traditional sports because there is less of a physical tax from practice.

But it's just like any hobby. If it's not your profession, you need to make sure you're not putting your long-term health or the health of your relationships or other responsibilities aside just for quick shot of pleasure or adrenaline.

WhompingWindows• 8 years ago

For Starcraft specifically, I've probably played 2k hours of SC:BW and maybe 3-4k of SC2, so I'd agree it is no joke and practicing is quite important. I managed to reach the top 2% of MMR by grinding out numerous games (as Zerg, FWIW), averaging 2.5 h/daily at my peak. I would practice economy/production (macro) and build orders outside of my matches, then bring those in to the competitive 1v1 ladder and figure out all the weird rush builds that needed to be scouted for/prevented.

I actually am trying to cut out games, however, since I find the stress on the wrists/hands that comes with coding + piano + gaming to be too much. So, when push comes to shove, I just end up watching some SC pro matches these days, as opposed to putting my wrist health in jeopardy.

mmjaa2• 8 years ago

I stopped playing mainstream video games last century when, after a 'quick network game of Starcraft and maybe a bit of Quake on a Friday afternoon at the end of the work week', I emerged from the dungeon we'd made at work for the purpose, only to discover it was Sunday morning, and more than 24 hours had gone by since any of us had even thought about what we were doing.

That was my personal wake-up call. Now I only play MAME games that require, max, 10 or 15 minutes of investment .. and then I simply stop.

I sort of miss the arcades of the 80's, which didn't seem to really propagate this addiction as readily as the current madness does.

nostrademons2• 8 years ago

Arcades absolutely did promote addiction, they just sucked at it compared to today's games.

In a classical arcade, you walk into a darkened room filled with animated CRTs and strange noises. They literally have blinders, designed to shut out your peripheral vision so the game is the only thing in your consciousness. When you die, you have 30 seconds to insert more coins and continue, otherwise you have to start all over from the beginning. Pretty much everything about this is designed to trigger your adrenalin-based threat-and-reward reflexes.

If modern computer games are more addictive, it's only because they've figured out how to trigger even more powerful primal instincts. MMORPGs and MOBAs add a social aspect, and very often a cumulative acquisition aspect (experience, gold, credits, etc). Simulations and worldbuilders like SimCity, Minecraft & Factorio engage our higher brain centers like planning and optimization. Mobile & casual games have figured out how to squeeze gaming into even smaller timeslots within our lives.

It's also interesting how gaming & gambling have converged. It used to be that a slot machine was a machine where you pulled a lever and tried to match up dials. Now you walk into a casino and it basically looks like an arcade, with lots of computerized gambling games on backlit LCD displays, while Internet games like CryptoKitties let you play & trade with real (well, fake) money.

mmjaa2• 8 years ago

The difference is, when you ran out of quarters, you were done. There was no further impulse to play for days and days.

However in the modern era, once you start - there is nothing stopping you.

bitL9• 8 years ago

they just sucked at it compared to today's games

Games these days are far far more interesting than most movies, TV shows or other forms of entertainment. With photorealistic rendering coming combined with AR they might even override the need for exploratory travels outside pure relaxation stays (i.e. if you can visit Alaska/Antarctica/Japan/Petra/whatever with photorealistic graphics, would you really want to travel there? I guess you'd rather go to some beach or clubbing place to unwind instead)

synthmeat• 8 years ago

For me, deciding moment was announcement of World of Warcraft at the turn of the century. I knew that game was going to be everything I hoped for, and that it'd ruin me. Even though I haven't actually tried it out to see if it's any good, life of my many friends was, from a personal judgmental perspective, ruined by it.

effingwewt• 8 years ago

I had the exact same experience. I'd played a bunch of games online and some weak mmorpgs like Knight Online, so I knew without a doubt if I played Wow I was done for, as it would press every button I had. And after hearing from my friends how great it was and how much time they spent playing, my resolve not to ever touch it strengthened. To this day I've played many mmos and mmorpgs, but never Wow. How weird is the world we live in where games are actually mentally physically and psychologically DANGEROUS? Where rather than eagerly awaiting some new game we fear it? At least I'm not the only one, as selfish as that sentiment is.

And sure the case can be made for personal willpower, and it's my own fault for being too weak to play it without becoming invested. But as others have pointed out these games are made to addict us. They are custom talored crack for the brain. I've seen so many friends lose jobs, friendships, all kinds of relationships... and I've seen the same with literal drugs such as alcohol, crack and heroin. I hate to advocate for regulation but we need at least some protections here because when a gaming company's bottom line depends on how much time we spend in a game you can be sure they are going to milk us for every second they can,for the most part.

audunw• 8 years ago

Very similar experience here. I played Anarchy Online in lower secondary school so much it started to affect my grades. I started upper secondary school at the same time as WoW came out, and even though everyone else in my class and my best friend was playing it, I decided to skip it.

When I started university, I was renting a house with a guy who basically sat inside playing WoW all day, didn't socialize much (other than us and our friends at the house) and didn't study much at all. Meanwhile, for the first time, I started being social outside the world of computers.

That year my grades took a hit from socializing and drinking instead, but I don't regret that. They recovered the next year and stayed good.

WoW really felt like a big threshold for gaming to me. I'd seen the same problems with Anarchy Online and other games, but nothing was close to the scale of popularity and level of addiction that WoW had.

zer0faith• 8 years ago

Something similar happened to me...I stopped playing games when my girlfriend at the time cut the power breaker off to the computer room to stop my WOW binge. I had been playing for 36hrs straight.

empath75• 8 years ago

When Everquest came out I watched the gaming group I used to play Warcraft and other games with turn into depressing addicts basically overnight. I’ve never played an mmorpg just because of how terrible that was to watch.

inter6322• 8 years ago

Hmm, this feels odd.. Do they mean: eSports professionals are having a 'gaming disorder', unlike old fashioned sport professionals?

amelius• 8 years ago

Why is every researcher treating addiction like it's bad behavior that needs to be avoided in order to be cured, instead of researching ways for humans to keep on getting the satisfaction, while curing the side effects?

(I know "curing the side effects" sounds bad, but it's basically what we want).

Jare• 8 years ago

Sounds like a "happy pill" compared to which any other reward mechanisms pale in comparison. Or, in the opposite direction, a "sad pill" compared to which no reward mechanisms can work.

skohan• 8 years ago

It may not be possible. Addiction is a disease of our systems governing attention and motivation: Normally those systems should adapt so that we pay attention to those things which are most relevant to our long-term well-being, and so we are motivated to act in ways which sustain our well-being and success.

Addiction occurs when a pattern of exposure to an acute stimulus activates our reward system in such a way that our attentional and motivational systems are subverted to cause us to seek out more of that short term reward, at the expense of our long-term happiness.

The "satisfaction", as you put it, is the subjective experience of that overwhelming, system-breaking reward signal. To get that experience without the resulting behavioral consequences would require us to fundamentally augment how reward affects the brain. It's doubtful it's possible to do that with addictive stimuli without causing wide-reaching effects on general learning and adaptation.

XalvinX2• 8 years ago

Yet more bullshit "diseases" invented by the psychiatric community to push drugs for their big pharma overlords. Doesn't the WHO have better things to do, like fighting real diseases such as malaria?

Everybody goes on little sprees of one kind or another during their lives.

Up next, "sudden love syndrome" ...the symptoms are about the same, aren't they? No, in fact they are exactly the same if you replace "your new serious romantic interest" with "video game".

And also, I remember being pretty addicted to D&D for awhile in my teen years, so we clearly need "RPG disorder" and better throw in "Board Game Disorder" for people hooked on Scrabble or Risk.

WHO, GTFO!

YuukiRey• 8 years ago

like fighting real diseases such as malaria?

And who made you the authority on what constitutes a real disease? When I vanished from real life to exist almost exclusively within the confines of a virtual world, I surely would have appreciated professional help and the recognition that I'm not just weak but that I have a clinically diagnosable problem with clear steps on how to improve.

I am sure that there are many things one can criticize about this, from the diagnostic criteria to how our society generally handles what the majority considers abnormal behavior.

But calling this a bullshit disease is probably the most offensive way of making people who are dealing with it (however you define it) even more discouraged.

goes on little sprees of one kind or another

Educate yourself before you post. From http://www.who.int/features/qa/gaming-disorder/en/

For gaming disorder to be diagnosed, the behaviour pattern must be of sufficient severity to result in significant impairment in personal, family, social, educational, occupational or other important areas of functioning and would normally have been evident for at least 12 months.

bitL9• 8 years ago

Can't wait to see the name of "medication" for gamers - "game over" pills?

XalvinX2• 8 years ago

Wow, at least one person on the same page as me here. I just don't care what people think..."addiction" to a game and the associated anti-social and possibly self-destructive behavior is just not a disease. Or, if it is, then the sky is the limit on what will be called (and yes, medicated) as a disease. And I don't like the trend...look at the stats, they are medicating tens of millions of children in the US alone for crap just like this.........

dagw• 8 years ago

Everybody goes on little sprees of one kind or another during their lives.

Have you actually read what the WHO have said? They're not talking about about 'little sprees', they're talking about sustained patterns of behavior that stretch over at least 12 month and "result in significant impairment in personal, family, social, educational, occupational or other important areas". This is not about people who occasionally blow off some social engagement so they can spend the weekend playing Counterstrike for 20 hours straight.

If it's not negatively affecting your life then, per definition, you're not covered by this.

announcerman3• 8 years ago

Is obsessing over things related to real life like social ties, money, career, or anything else that will surely pass after you die a disorder? If it isn't then why not?

icebraining4• 8 years ago

"experts in psychology and financial planning say the number of professionals offering to treat money disorders has multiplied in the last few years."

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/health/25iht-25money.1647...

As for career, workaholism is certainly considered a dysfunction.

bitL9• 8 years ago

for career, workaholism is certainly considered a dysfunction

You meant a pre-requisite for a promotion, right?

nvarsj2• 8 years ago

As for career, workaholism is certainly considered a dysfunction.

Workaholism is praised by our culture. In fact, it's probably necessary for capitalism to function at all. Without that societal impetus I imagine everything would crumble.

cirgue3• 8 years ago

Because activities related to those things create sustained material security and personal fulfillment. Your efforts at building a strong network of friends pay dividends for decades, the equivalent amount of time playing video games has no bearing on your life a year from now.

nvarsj2• 8 years ago

It's certainly possible to build "a strong network of friends" by playing games. Many people game specifically for that reason, or at least a large part of it.

announcerman3• 8 years ago

So in your opinion all efforts that result in the optimization or improvement of something decided as relevant by yourself are worthwhile?

mattlondon3• 8 years ago

This is made worse in my mind for games that are essentially single-player yet have some sort of online element that means you cant just hit pause or save & exit whenever you want. You have to keep on going for longer than you want until it is "safe" for you to stop.

In the old days you could just exit out to the pause menu or save so you could go to the toilet or answer the phone or talk to your family and your in-game activities were safe. You could pick and chose when and how you wanted to play.

Now you cant stop when you want, because if you do you'll just be left "idle" in-game. This means that you're prey for other players or NPCs in game, and you risk losing your character's progress and you're back to the start (sometimes there is a significant time-investment to this progress so understandably you dont want to risk it). You can only stop when you get to some sort of safe-place in-game, which means you have to play longer than you want to.

So you get situations like where if I am playing a game and my wife asks me to come and see something or make a cup of tea or something, I have to ask her to wait until it is "safe" for me to stop. I feel like I am prioritising the game over my wife (and I guess I am to an extent).

I dont like this.

I really wish games would allow you to just quit whenever you want without risking your in-game progress.

icebraining4• 8 years ago

Is this a widespread thing?

OberstKrueger• 8 years ago

Do you have any examples of games like this? I know there are singleplayer games that require you to be online even when playing solo(i.e. Diablo 3), but when you're solo, you can still pause the game. Curious to know what developers don't allow such actions.

Drakim• 8 years ago

Only ones I can think of is Dark Souls and Resident Evil 6, as other players can invade your single-player game to try to kill you.

mattlondon3• 8 years ago

Elite Dangerous and Rust are two particular examples I had in mind when writing this.

jackewiehose2• 8 years ago

Another example is Assassins Creed Origins. It gives you (optional) tasks that are only available for some time, e.g. 1-40 (real) hours.

That's too much stress for me, I don't want games to interfere with my real life.

ericdykstra5• 8 years ago

There are tens of thousands of games you could be playing, and only a fraction of single-player games have anything like this. If you don't like the small fraction that do, choose other games. I can't even think of any single-player game off the top of my head that I can't pause or save and quit progress at any time.

hiccuphippo• 8 years ago

I think the only ones like that are the Dark Souls series. But I wonder if they'll add pause to the Switch version since it's a mobile version.

Every game in the 3DS pauses when the player closes the lid. It should be the same with the Switch.

tw1010• 8 years ago

Game companies optimize for sustained gameplay, often without ever thinking about the people that lie behind the bits. What you described is one of the best strategies there are. I see no counter force, other than regulation, that would prevent this process from just keep getting worse and worse.

feocco6• 8 years ago

You jump to regulation as the only thing to solve this? You could just not play those games. There's literally thousands upon thousands of alternatives that don't do this.

jackewiehose2• 8 years ago

I really wish games would allow you to just quit whenever you want without risking your in-game progress.

I love how the Nintendo Switch allows you to pause any game, any time immediately. Even during load screens! And you can suspend the console. Although I don't know what happens when the battery runs out.

I which they would enforce something like this for PC/steam games. But of course it won't help much with online "real-time" games.

Kihashi• 8 years ago

Although I don't know what happens when the battery runs out

What you'd expect- you lose any unsaved progress. Some games have autosave, though, so it's not like you usually lose a huge amount. Also, the battery life in suspend mode is pretty long, IME. Generally several days at least.

hans0l074• 8 years ago

I get what you mean, but I have "strengthened my will" against this, I suppose.

There are games like the Dark Souls/Bloodborne series, where you can "quit" anytime, and if you restart, you are in the exact same spot as before. In the worse case, you get killed by roaming enemies/other invading players (it's mainly a single player game with multiplayer elements) - but I die in these bloody games anyway, so I don't care so much. I rationalize it by saying that all you lose are some in-game "souls" (currency) - so yeah I go make that tea for the missus.

In games like The Division/Battlefield 4, where you are part of a multiplayer team and trying to complete a "mission/quest", it's a bit more difficult. It's annoying for the other players if you bail out or go AFK (Away From KBD). So you have to pre-book your game time in short batches ("I'm doing this mission - 45 minutes"). Of course you can leave if you are playing with strangers. Usually the games automatically pull another online player in.

Most other games I play are single-player RPG's (e.g All Bioware / Bethesda RPG's e.g Dragon Age, Skyrim etc) allow you to save or pause.

I can't remember anymore, but even in WoW it wasn't that big a deal to just bail out when needed.

dwringer• 8 years ago

In WoW it was often a nightmare of dooming between 3 and 39 other people to twenty minutes of trying to find a replacement instead of actually playing the game. Not a big deal for the person who quits, admittedly.

ahakki• 8 years ago

Halt execution

DEADBEEFC0FFEE• 8 years ago

I can relate. I have taught myself to judge the impact of the StayAndPlay behavioral, and if necessary Alt-F4, walk away.

Getting the shopping out of the car when my wife gets back is not more important, but not helping my wife is perceived as rude, and that is important.

I'm trying to teach my boy this. Fortnite is absolutely gaming crack designed by psychologists. Powerful shit.

DanBC• 8 years ago

My child enjoys Fortnite Battle Royale. I wanted to buy him Fortnite until he somehow got a free trial for a few days. All the loot boxes really put me off it.

beenBoutIT3• 8 years ago

Why doesn't someone form an NGO or non-profit that assigns addicictveness ratings to games? These things can easily be quantified and labeled in a way that parents could easily understand.

jetti• 8 years ago

This isn't a new thing though. When the SNES Classic came out I picked one up because it had Secret of Mana on it. I completely forgot about not being able to just turn off the game when I want to stop since the only way you can save is by staying at an inn. I honestly haven't played a single player game that came out in the past 5 years (other than Secret of Mana remake) that would prohibit me from stopping whenever I want.

My big issue is multiplayer games (namely FIFA and Rocket League). If I just stop mid-game I lose rank, which means I may be stuck in a match longer than I would like to be.

Sylamore• 8 years ago

I actually remember this being worse on games from the 80s and 90s because some of them didn't even have a save option at all (say River Raid) so you had to start over from scratch any time you stopped playing. Or games like Metroid or Zelda on the NES where you had to be at a save point or you'd lose all your progress since the last save.

Today it's always online games, if you're in the middle of a level/mission the only option you have is to quit which if it's a competitive game leaves your team at a disadvantage, plus some games penalize you if you habitually quit early. In some games, like BF1 or the recent CoDs someone can immediately come back in to take your place if you are playing in a casual game mode, but the more competitive game modes won't allow someone else to join (Breakout in Halo 5 for example).

bitL9• 8 years ago

How about addiction to social networks, status updates, fake snapshots pretending one's having a dream life and for virtue signalling? Being glued to a smartphone for that is more profound than basement-dwelling gamers.

keshav_• 8 years ago

they didn't say these things can't be addiction.

bitL9• 8 years ago

Why is suddenly some fringe gamer "epidemics" treated as more important (WHO level? seriously?) than vastly more prevalent smartphone-based social addiction?

amarant• 8 years ago

does this mean I can call in sick to play more splatoon? I think this means I can call in sick to play more splatoon.

vectorEQ• 8 years ago

Increasing priority given to gaming to the extent that gaming takes precedence over other life interests and daily activities

So, we all have a code and/or computer disorder. gg guys, lets get on dem zombie pillz ...

'gaming addiction' would be better term. and then even ,the problem is being addicted, not gaming.. people get addicted to all kinds of shit. having a interest in something more than other things is normal. and call that a disorder is criminal.

piva00• 8 years ago

It's vague because it's an individual case-by-case assessment, it's not something easy to simplify to a checklist, it's a spectrum.

Yes, if the increasing priority begins to affect other aspects of your life negatively it's a disorder, like any other addiction, don't get defensive because you can relate to the description of the symptom.

inter6322• 8 years ago

Yes, if the increasing priority begins to affect other aspects of your life negatively it's a disorder, like any other addiction

Loads of people that have a passion for something, whether it be music, painting, coding, cooking, etc.. are experiencing a negative impact on their lives in some way. This seems very obvious to me. I play guitar and for many years I've practiced more than 10 hours a day. This had a very negative impact on my income to the point I had to stop to avoid becoming homeless. Is my passion a disorder because I don't make enough money with it? Are all successful musicians suffering a passion disorder? Should they quit making great music for the world and work for McDonalds living a depressed, and above all pointless life?

Some years later I started coding and a new passion arose. For years, and still today I code often more than 10 hours a day. Only now it positively impacts my income. Do I have a disorder? Do I need to stop and get treatment for being a passionate coder? I honestly think I'm quite lucky to have a passion for something that renders income.

I've played World of Warcraft for years, sometimes a real lot too. I have great memories of great times with my online friends. It is not something I will regret when my life comes to an end. I cannot play as much as I want because it will negatively impact my income. Should I regret now because I possibly have a 'gaming disorder', should I feel bad about the good times I had? Should I prevent others from having the time of their life? Should we not better ban eSports completely because too much gaming is bad? All pro players back to poverty, doing a stupid depressing job, but totally enjoying their 'disorder free' life?

Oh, and btw, I love coffee :)

srrge3• 8 years ago

As a 43 year old with two jobs and two kids, I found myself playing 500 hours of PlayerUnknown's Battleground in a few months. I had to uninstall the game.

The addiction was very real.

mattbrewsbytes3• 8 years ago

Did you lose your job, destroy relationships with your family and friends?

Or did this merely replace 500 hours that would have been spent watching TV, Netflix or other types of entertainment?

The word addiction has a real meaning with some clinical ways for a trained person to diagnose somebody as having it.

I think of addiction more like alcoholism. Sure video games are engineered these days to be huge time sinks but that doesn't make it an addiction. If you can drop it (like you did) and it doesn't impact your life, its not an addiction.

Jach• 8 years ago

A useful statistic from 2016: US adults on average watch 5 hours of TV per day. Over 90 days (a few months) that's 450 hours.

srrge3• 8 years ago

I am self-employed (I actually run two small companies) and I sent some of my work days playing PUBG. Also I had less interaction with my kids and wife, and no other hobby really.

I looked at PUBG videos very often, sometimes live streams, at the office during the day.

I was thinking about PUBG all day long. It was bad.

zeofig• 8 years ago

Now they just need to recognise the disorder making my dota 2 teammates so noob.

rteDev• 8 years ago

They have. That's the Dunning-Kruger effect.

s0adex• 8 years ago

I once had this problem. Especially when I used to work from home. The game was one click away from being opened. I used to play around 6 hours per day on weekdays and the whole day on weekends. I had to do treatment to get rid of the addiction, I really don't know how I didn't lose my job at that time. Although I ended up replacing it with other kinds of addictions, these new additions are way more subtle than the gaming and easy to manage.

mattbrewsbytes3• 8 years ago

PSA: Playstation has a 'Family Management' feature where you can limit game time played on sub-accounts. You can set time limits per day and the action to take like auto-logout. It reminds the player as they get closer to being out of time.

I don't think we know the effects of modern video games on younger (aka developing) minds yet. Many of these games hire psychologists [0] to help engineer game play to keep people wanting to play because if they get bored and move onto another game it could be a loss. I don't think old school games like Zelda or Mario were engineered this way.

Think about a game like Tic-Tac-Toe and how after a certain age it becomes boring. Now add leaderboards, points for certain types of wins, customizable X's and O's, customizable game boards, avatars, seasons, etc. The game is the same but now you have multiple games encompassing the game of popular 'skins', points, 1-upping competitors, etc.

[0]http://theconversation.com/the-business-of-addiction-how-the...

Rotdhizon• 8 years ago

Posted it the other day on another thread, will post it here again so people can see it. Here is my own experience with this.

As crazy as these articles have been about gaming addiction being a medical condition are, I believe it. I'm in my early 20s, ever since I was in my mid teens I was addicted to video games. All through grade school and in college now, I struggle to put the controller down. I routinely don't get enough sleep because I can't stop playing. As soon as I come home I am on, and I won't get off until the early hours of the morning. It's a mixture of reasons why I guess; it keeps my mind off of reality, I enjoy the satisfaction of winning frequently, and it fulfills my desire of being in a progression based system. Achievements, knowing that my actions will eventually unlock achievements and level-ups, it keeps me going. I can't play games that don't have progression systems of some sort because I feel like without progression, it's a waste of time. Sure you can kind of get that in the real world, but it's harder and takes so much longer. Why do that when I have an easy alternative sitting on my desk? I really want to break my addiction to gaming as it really does affect some parts of my life, especially academic.

bootstf• 8 years ago

It's not that far fetched, really.

For a lack of a better word, modern video games are increasingly "manipulative" when it comes to incentivizing players to play more, and without sounding conspiratorial, gaming companies probably benefit a whole lot from gaming addictions fueled by progression systems like you mentioned.

Compare that to classic games like Earthbound where an in-game character will bug you repeatedly to take a break if you play for too long. An extreme and nostalgic example, but mostly my point is that developers are much better at developing "hooks" in a gameplay loop that keeps a player going now in addition to games being way more stimulating.

kibwen2• 8 years ago

As crazy as these articles have been about gaming addiction being a medical condition are

I appreciate that you're sort of equivocating here to preemptively deter the critics, but I'll take a stronger stance. Gaming is indisputably "addictive" in the layman's sense, even if people seem to get grumpy over using the term "addiction" for anything other than substance abuse. Regardless of what we call it, the detriment to daily life is similar.

I myself experience some minor form of game addiction: I played World of Warcraft about a decade ago, and even though I only played for two years and even though I was the furthest thing from a hardcore player (I never even got a character to max level, I just loved making alts), to this day I still get occasional and inexplicable cravings to play it. These episodes aren't prompted by anything I can perceive. It feels like a tugging in my heart, the same sort of ache you might feel when you watch a loved one suffering yet are powerless to help them. I've played a whole damn lot of games in my life, but that's the only one that I've ever jonesed for.

jlelonm• 8 years ago

Same. It's the strangest thing - I watched porn from around 14 years old to about 4 years ago (when I was 22), and I had intermittent cravings until about a year later (23), when they stopped completely.

When I gave up social media (although I've since relapsed and am now back on it), I didn't have cravings for it after a while.

But with WoW.... I literally have a craving every couple months, without fail, even though I only played for about 2 years from 2004 to 2006.

naravara2• 8 years ago

With MMOs it might be the melding of an addictive feedback loop with actual socializing. Most WoW addicts I've met seem to have pretty tight relationships with their guildmates or in-game friends. You hear something similar from people who quit smoking, about how they miss the social aspect of taking breaks to go outside and chat.

ericdykstra5• 8 years ago

Just play enough clicker games until you realize that "progression for progression's sake" is nothing but an empty dopamine hit.

Games can be a fantastic story-telling medium, a competitive environment where you can test your skill and intellect against real human opponents, a lot of pure fun, or a way to spend time playing cooperatively with friends. All of these can be worthwhile activities in different ways.

Grinding mindlessly to make some numbers go up is not worthwhile at all. Playing a game just for the progression that you wouldn't play otherwise is a sign of addiction and can have a substantial negative impact on your life. I love games, but some self-awareness about what they are actually doing for you goes a long way to making them a part of a healthy, productive life rather than something that destroys it.

naravara2• 8 years ago

Just play enough clicker games until you realize that "progression for progression's sake" is nothing but an empty dopamine hit.

That might be clear for you, but it's not for everyone. The way the OP describes his motivation for gaming sounds extremely similar to people with gambling addictions.

Self-awareness isn't enough for everyone. Some people are just wired to respond to that dopamine hit from progression systems in an especially strong, self-reinforcing way. They need more help and one of the first steps to that is endorsing more ethical game design that doesn't go so heavily into building addictive feedback loops.

RHSeeger• 8 years ago

- a fantastic story-telling medium

- a competitive environment where you can test your skill and intellect against real human opponents

- playing cooperatively with friends.

- Grinding mindlessly to make some numbers go up

All of those are different things that it's possible to enjoy. I would hesitate to say any one is more "correct" than the others, other than how socially acceptable they are.

krageon6• 8 years ago

I'm not in the same boat as the person you are responding to, but I do play a lot more videogames than most people. I'm a huge fan of clicker games, because to me they represent the essence of modern life and I find that hilarious. What you call "nothing but an empty dopamine hit" is really just most things people find valuable in life.

bytematic• 8 years ago

Personal question I know, but do you have ADHD? I think there is a relation between motivation and 'wanting' dopamine 'infusions' that also plays into why people with ADHD might thrive in that environment.

shiburizu• 8 years ago

I'd say the following points need to be made about "gaming" because the perception does not reflect reality when you play a videogame:

- the classical "neurotic player who doesn't like distractions and spends hours on VoIP getting angry at the game" is the reflection of a lot of the people who get into real-time multiplayer in MMORPGs or now games like Fortnite. This isn't quite how it stands for a lot of games, genuine one-and-done experiences like God of War or going back a bit to the Wii didn't have this continuous "one more" feedback or ridiculous length of content (3 hours a night raiding is tiresome and stressing for some people)

- The fighting game community has the oddity of gathering in large tournaments, building community on them and treating their games with immense discipline in learning to the point where others complain the barrier of entry to being "good" is too high. More than any other genre, fighters offer real-life experiences. E-sports is picking up on this*.

- Something to consider when determining the "why" of prolonged play is also the community or social aspect of the game. I play a lot of videogames, I admit, and one of the things that makes me commit a lot of hours into a game is when I can talk about it, talk to people in it, build a common interest and execute it. I live in a country where I speak my second language more than my first and hopping online to play in English is definitely some strong escapism. This is my experience, but so many people get online these days for the strong community tools (Discord, subreddits). It's primarily this aspect that makes me question any attempt to compare it to gambling/watching sports/binge watching movies or what have you. Gaming is built on a huge internet infrastructure because social features build long-time users.

I totally appreciate the definition of gaming disorder being sacrificing other healthy parts of life to continue feeding your need to play videogames but maybe this made sense if everyone was still playing the Super Nintendo (and even then we mocked it) but the world, and maybe it's just because enough huge corporations threw enough money at marketing to make it happen, has managed to genuinely change real-life because of videogames. This is far too dismissive.

Other posters mention this and I'd probably say that they refused to consult people in the game development industry/competitive gaming organizations/prominent players because they'd like to poison the well by assuming they'd never admit they have a problem (Although I suppose that might have to do with EA and the like refusing to have ethical debate instead of filtering us through an endless marketing machine, taking notes from Hollywood)

Side note: First post on HN after long time browsing. Feel free to rip this apart.

jokoon• 8 years ago

As crazy as it sounds, I think I managed my gaming time by actually designing my own because the games i have been playing never satisfy me.

I usually get bored pretty easily, and there are no games that can really make me play for a long enough time because there is something that frustrates me about the game mechanics.

It's actually very satisfying to think about game design as a programmer, and to spot what can be improved in games i like so i might better enjoy playing and sharing them in the future.

‘Gaming disorder’ is officially recognized by the World Health Organization

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