Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe

by evo_9 • 8 years ago

242 160 8 years ago

europe.autonews.com

Original source: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te...

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sctb• 8 years ago

Thanks, we've updated the link from https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segmen....

madengr• 8 years ago

I suppose premium in Europe is luxury in the USA. Isn’t a 7 series BMW about $140k USD?

xversilov• 8 years ago

Yeah, nobody buys a 7 series to drive themselves. The 5 series is BMW's driver flagship, IMO.

sorenjan• 8 years ago

Never seen a 7-series that wasn't driven by the owner.

ryanlol• 8 years ago

This may be true in China, but not most other countries.

alkonaut3• 8 years ago

The "I don't drive myself"-version of e.g. the Audi A8 is the A8L. Same for the BMW 7. (At least they used to have e.g. the 740L).

But both the S-class and the 7-series are very VERY rare luxury cars. I see thousands of 5-series and E-classes for every 7-series or S-class. The difference in price must be huge in europe compared to the US, because there I saw tons of 7-series and S-class was almost as common as E-class.

blotto• 8 years ago

In the US a 7 starts at $83,100 - https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&o....

jacquesm7• 8 years ago

For comparison, in NL they start at 105,000 Euros ($130K), in Germany at 87,000 Euros ($107K).

neverminder• 8 years ago

The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.

kevincennis• 8 years ago

Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car.

EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.

Xylakant2• 8 years ago

Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google)

So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.

freddie_mercury• 8 years ago

In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €.

In Germany a Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse base price (the S-350) is 85.590 €.

Neither car is $50,000 or $80,000 in the markets the article is talking about, so I'm a bit confused by what your post is referring to.

semi-extrinsic2• 8 years ago

I agree this article makes absolutely no sense. Tesla's biggest market in Europe is Norway. In Norway, the base price of a Model S is $76k, while the cheapest BMW 7-series costs $140k! That's literally double the price!

bigtones• 8 years ago

You're right. This is Tesla's framing to get comparisons articles like these. The Tesla Model S should be compared to mid-range BMW's and Mercedes and the shipping numbers for those German models far eclipse the Tesla Model S.

olivermarks• 8 years ago

Tesla are marketing and branding geniuses - they make Jobs look like an amateur

djrogers• 8 years ago

Isn’t it still a ‘lesser’ car outsold similarly priced ‘better’ cars though?

Seems like if the comparison were flipped, all the Tesla haters would be whining about it being compared to cheaper cars...

bald• 8 years ago

Who do you think is the authority on this?

The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class.

Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.

TomMarius2• 8 years ago

This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is.

The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.

cptskippy5• 8 years ago

The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive.

If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.

hashmal2• 8 years ago

Tesla's own positioning has authority on the subject: their communication says "premium" cars. That's completely different than luxury.

Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).

dexterdog• 8 years ago

It's in the class of those vehicles in cost and performance, but it is not in terms of build quality.

hashmal2• 8 years ago

This article doesn't make sense indeed, they are comparing a premium brand (by Tesla's own wording on their website) with luxury brands.

(true) luxury brands have a love/hate relationship with "high sales", because every sale that is made lowers the prestige of the brand (to quote Porsche's CEO, "I worry when I see two of my cars in the same street").

Knowing that, comparing a company that benefits from selling more with companies that benefit from maintaining prestige is absurd.

audunw• 8 years ago

I find it odd that there's so much discussion about this. It's pretty simple, and I think everyone understands how they compare if you just list the facts:

It's in the same price-class as S-class/7-series, but since operating costs are lower it still attracts E-class/7-series customers.

It's nearer to the high end classes when it comes to tech-factor and autonomy. It's also arguably in a class of its own when it comes to software and OTA updates.

It's in a class of its own when it comes to engine performance, since BMW and Mercedes don't have EVs in that segment. EVs have very different performance characteristics, but Tesla is arguably better in many ways.

It's in the E-class/5-Series segment in fit and finish and various luxury features.

I think the Model S is attracting S-class/7-series customers, without a doubt. I'm sure some of those would sacrifice fit and finish for the unique experience that the Model S delivers. But it doesn't attract everyone in that market. That goes without saying.

mtgx3• 8 years ago

Good news. But I'm not happy about this:

https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla

Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving vehicles each on the road?

scottLobster• 8 years ago

"The RedLock CSI team immediately reported the incident to Tesla and the issue was quickly rectified."

That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded quickly gives me more confidence in them.

But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.

Consultant32452• 8 years ago

Once the state actors have hacked the AI drivers/cameras they will be able to track and kill just about anyone anywhere with them.

mtgx3• 8 years ago

No, that's not the "most" they can do. Not even close.

This is about the minimum they should do with self-driving cars, yet it's still about an order of magnitude more than their "most they can do" right now:

http://ideas.4brad.com/disconnected-car-right-security-plan-...

Tesla cars' "features" such as remote control, accessing any car from its servers, over-the-air updates, and more features like that will have a direct impact in helping attackers take over Teslas' cars.

How they design the security architecture of their self-driving cars now will determine whether or not Tesla's cars will be the "Windows XP" of the 2020s. I think it's way better to criticize/give them feedback on this now, while the architecture is still being developed, than after the potential Windows XP is already "finished" and live on 50 million cars. And yes, that goes for every other carmaker, too, not just Tesla.

Plus, I don't know about you, but a TV ad saying "Tesla - the only self-driving car that hackers can't drive off the highway" sounds like it would be quite effective to me.

codeulike• 8 years ago

So this was a server side thing.

Most of the discussion I've seen around trying to hack Tesla vehicles is that they are impressively secure, although persevering white-hats have found ways in here and there, which Tesla have quickly patched.

Its true that we're in a brave new world of hackable cars though. Tesla imho have a better software pedigree than the other automakers so that will hopefully keep them ahead.

Jesus_Jones• 8 years ago

There was a server problem, and it was fixed. Tesla was upfront about the problem and pushed out updates to resolve it. Compare this to all other auto dealers - hiding problems, not fixing them, no ability to improve them online. Tesla has a generally well designed system, with separate computer systems running the drive train and the 'entertainment' console, you can reboot the big panel without affecting driving the car.

mtmail• 8 years ago

Raw data. It doesn't match the number listed in the article exactly but the same trend.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-... 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Ben... 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-ben... 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771

cat199• 8 years ago

I hear that in 5 years everyone will be using tablets and there will be no more laptops or desktops either...

oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.

jacquesm7• 8 years ago

Guess what? More Teslas are being sold than Ferrari's as well. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison, every German brand that sells cars in this segment outsells Tesla 5:1 or more.

Sales for 2017:

Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K

Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country you are looking at.

BoorishBears7• 8 years ago

I have no idea why the Model S sales numbers are being compared to cars like the 7 series by laypeople too.

Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series? They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life... if that’s your thing.

The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

wodenokoto• 8 years ago

The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

No, that is not strange at all.

FireBeyond4• 8 years ago

The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price

The last Model S I drove in was more like a Camry on some of the interior detailing.

Push down on the dash of a Tesla, listen to the creaking of flexing plastic. Do the same in a mid/high range Audi/MB/BMW.

Look at the gaps in trim detail on the door liner.

Give the center console a wiggle.

It's not -bad-, but it's not as polished, high quality, as some would like to believe.

nilkn2• 8 years ago

First of all, I completely agree that the E class is more on par with the Model S, and the S class is significantly more luxurious.

With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less luxurious.

I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.

greglindahl12• 8 years ago

If you talk to Tesla owners, you'll find that their thing is flooring it and NOT making a roar.

jordache• 8 years ago

they being compared because they fall into a similar price range. 100K for a Model S, is higher than the vast majority of 5s and E klasse

reaperducer2• 8 years ago

then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life

For realsies? Or is it just a soundtrack?

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound...

vinay4272• 8 years ago

Honestly, it feels more like an A4 or 3-series in quality based on US trims of these cars. It certainly wasn't more luxurious than a C-class.

reaperducer2• 8 years ago

I'm a little more forgiving than most on HN.

I'm sure that the cars that BMW cranked out in its third year of production weren't the same as today's BMW's, either.

When Tesla's been doing this for a decade, then I'll hold their feet a little closer to the fire. For right now, it's a company learning how to build cars; and from that perspective, it seems to be doing a pretty good job.

omarforgotpwd• 8 years ago

It’s being compared to cars in the same size class. Typically people who are buying the Model S would have bought a 7 series or S class, not a 5 or an E. it’s a very expensive car. Similarly Model 3 should be compared to BMW 3 series and Mercedes E class as those are the products a different consumer might be choosing between. It’s not really meaningful to compare sales between cars with dramatically different pricing because the price obviously affects demand.

Tesla does not have many of the “luxuries” that BMW has, but it has other benefits like better technology and 0 emissions. The news is that faced with that choice, many consumers are choosing Tesla over a 7 series and it’s quiet cabin.

adventured3• 8 years ago

What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?

The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it.

Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.

The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.

jacquesm7• 8 years ago

What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?

The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes.

The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper.

In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series.

Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all.

Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years.

In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting.

See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment.

If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here.

So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW.

No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares.

The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.

Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight.

The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.

No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.

btian• 8 years ago

Will you sell me a new base model Ferrari for ~$75k?

Pretty please

alkonaut3• 8 years ago

The big brands are in a bit of a dip, converting from a huge fraction being big diesels, back into petrol and more hybrid/electrics. It will be a few years before the likes of VW/Audo/Merc/BMW/Volvo etc have all hybrid and/or electric. The dieselgate combined with the rise of Tesla caught everyone off guard. Also, there are some big subsidies that obviously go mostly to Tesla, and not to the luxry car makers (much). When subsidies disappear (or apply to germans too because they make EV's) then the sales figures can be better compared.

jankotek• 8 years ago

Subsidized luxury cars....

r3bl• 8 years ago

Subsidized electric cars.

Level of luxury doesn't matter at all in this case. The car is electric, and therefore, is subsidized.

jaclaz• 8 years ago

Here is an old [2016] article about why the Tesla S might not be a "Full-Size Luxury Sedan", which lists arguments I personally find convincing:

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but...

TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately similar price range.

c1utch1• 8 years ago

This is fake news. Comparing Tesla sales to the X6 doesn't make any sense since that's a very niche product that BMW sells. I understand it's the most similar BMW from a design standpoint, but it's probably their lowest volume model. The most comparable would be the 5 series.

OliverJones• 8 years ago

The Model S (my Model S anyway) is expensive not because it's in the same conspicuous luxury segment as the high end of the Benz or Porsche line, but because it has expensive batteries, and because Tesla is using me, at my expense and with my consent, to gain market experience.

It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that.

My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several mass-market EV brands competing with each other.

If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably won't be worth more than a few kilobucks.

The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake.

(Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)

adventured3• 8 years ago

I think Tesla will eventually have to decide on a direction for the S, to drift higher or lower in its competitive target, in line with inevitable changes to tax credits.

It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5 category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise prices and fully compete with the next tier up.

The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3 (and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time.

Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.

cloudwalking• 8 years ago

I think you're right, and I bet Tesla will try to compete with the 5 series/E class and not the 7/S. Model S won't have to come down in price very much to fit in with 5/E. Maybe it will lack fit and finish, but it will have much better acceleration and cargo room (and the Tesla brand, and the domestic badge). The Model S will remain pretty competitive in the market.

oblib• 8 years ago

I know from a long career in the custom car field that this is an amazing milestone for a new US based automotive manufacturer.

The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US manufacturer.

The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right behind the DeLorean on the timeline.

And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically.

I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished with how much they've done.

At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry forever.

MisterTea• 8 years ago

I honestly never thought we would see a from the ground up car manufacturer coalesce into existence without divine intervention. I remember hearing that the barrier of entry to the automobile market is measured in billions per vehicle platform. For a long time I assumed that the only way we'd see another car maker is if a Chinese or Indian manufacturer entered the US Automobile market.

abzolv• 8 years ago

IMHO Tesla is selling well only because they are first to market, and because of the various EV incentive programs.

One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities.

I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or 2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc.

Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local dealership.

Joeri• 8 years ago

Comparing today’s tesla against a 2020 competitor is unfair. You have to compare 2020’s tesla. People have been saying tesla will be outcompeted for years and still no real competition has materialized. If the traditional car companies wanted to be in tesla’s market, they already would be.

martin_bech2• 8 years ago

preach! They are announcing concepts, that dont even eclipse, the current offerings. Next year you will probably see a performance Model 3 dual motor, faster than any BMW M3, M4 or Mercedede C AMG or basicly anything, in that class.

martin_bech2• 8 years ago

I can certainly see a lot of different possibilities as Audi/Mercedes/Porsche get their EV offerings out, but NONE of them, even the concepts (2019 2020 etc), offer similar performance, or even range to the more than year old Tesla Model S P100D. And when they come out.. they will most likely be competing against the Roadster 2.0 and very likely also an updated Model S. I feel like this is 2007-2009 all over again.. Yeah the iPhone is nice and all, but look at HTC, Blackberry and Nokia.. they are getting their iPhone killers ready...

rconti2• 8 years ago

At this point, I disagree that it's because of the incentives. In fact, at the Model S price point, it probably had nothing to do with incentives, which are (if you're 'lucky', 10% at $100k pricepoint).

First to market, yes. And first to make it 'cool'. I have a hard time thinking BMW bolting batteries into a car will take away from the novelty factor of the Model S. It's not just about propulsion, it's everything -- the styling, the electronics, the early adopter thing, street cred, etc.

It's "do you want to buy one of half a dozen old school cars, or this new COOL thing?"

How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?

dragonwriter• 8 years ago

How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?

Honda had the first mass-produced US-market hybrid, and was the first to make it cool.

OTOH, the first-gen Prius was more broadly useful than the super-small first-gen Insight that preceded it to the US market.

Not sure how this is supposed to map to Tesla, are you trying to say Tesla is like Toyota or Honda in this comparison?

Vik1ng• 8 years ago

In Norway it is not 10% but a 100%

PhaseBlue• 8 years ago

The fact that nobody has mentioned the word torque shows the lack of Tesla owners on these comments. Driving a Tesla can make you forgive all the other shortcomings.

SEJeff• 8 years ago

Tesla to the rest of the auto manufacturers: I have not yet begun to fight! (in my best John Paul Jones voice)

Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe

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