After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2017/10/06/her-disability-check-was-gone-and-now-the-only-option-left-was-also-one-of-the-worst/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_economydisabled-702am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

by iamjeff • 9 years ago

175 323 9 years ago

washingtonpost.com

logfromblammo5• 9 years ago

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up.

You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone?

It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunting, which go into supplements, but a large fraction of the people are growing marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms, collecting sassafras root bark for MDMA cooks, and reselling their prescription opioids, in addition to the older traditions of moonshining and tobacco cigarette smuggling.

And everyone is on social security disability. If all you ever knew is coal mining, that's your condition that prevents you from finding gainful employment. If you need to see what happens with bare-bones basic income, that's it. The whole community barely scrapes along, and everyone has to do some niche hustle to earn their gas money a dime at a time. If you threw out the penalty for working, most of those people would be doing something productive, even if it's manufacturing ugly tchotchkes to be sold in a tourist trap, because whatever it is would give them beef in their stew instead of just barely enough gas in the tank to keep going.

tdb78932• 9 years ago

One good thing about a true basic income is that there wouldn't be conditions for receiving it so it would significantly lessen the penalty for working legitimately (obviously there would still be tax reasons to have income you don't need to report). My hope for basic income is that by simplifying how we give aid it can take out much of the ridiculous bureaucracy of it but I'm obviously no expert

hpcjoe10• 9 years ago

The concern I have with this will be inflation. People now have money, sellers can now raise prices. Which eventually gets us right back to where we were. You can give them more money, but then you are accelerating the cycle.

hpcjoe10• 9 years ago

This is replicated all over the rust belt. One of the saddest portrayals of this is the photo essay, The Ruins of Detroit[1]. These once mighty economic engines have been silenced: manufacturing, coal, etc. What happens next is that the people who depend upon these industries to make a living, and live ... do less well of a job of this.

Some argue that unions would help (they wouldn't), or anti-globalism would stop factories/industries from moving (maybe temporarily). The sad fact remains that industries are, to a degree, tied to regions, and people grow up depending upon those industries in those regions. Once the industry finds a lower cost mechanism to come to market, those dependent people are cut free.

Its the short term, profit focused mindset and all it brings that is a huge part of the problem. Note that I am a staunch capitalist, and I see this.

I don't have a solution to this. I wish I did. None of the political parties have anything close to a solution for this. Giving money directly to people may help for a while, but is likely to spark inflation, which will cause this to repeat in a few years.

I remember one of the political parties crowing about how they saved the auto industry in Michigan during the last major financial crisis. Funny, as I live there, and I remember one of the people who lives in my sub whose business was destroyed by this "saving" thanks to many long held overdue invoices at one of the car company's being zeroed out, coming to my front door, with his son to ask for help. Food specifically.

Foolish policies that do not contemplate consequences for actions, apart from the groups that the politicos favor, help decimate regions like this. Coal is evil as I've heard. And the people who mine it? They are the ones now suffering because, you know, its evil, and coal must die.

Every decision, every policy has consequences. There are never any easy solutions.

(edits to correct spelling/punctuation errors)

[1] http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit

javajosh3• 9 years ago

The good capitalist would say that if a firm moves out of a region, that another firm will happily pounce on all of those experienced, employable workers they left behind! Hiring is hard, so having a big pool of applicants is great!

What the good capitalist ignores is the extent to which workers become specialized at the firm, become a cog not shaped correctly for any other firm. Call this lack of fungibility. (It's one reason why company loyalty used to a) be a popular feature, and b) work both ways.)

The good capitalist also ignores the fact that the conditions that drove the firm away in the first place will generally drive away other firms, too. Company analysts think in herds. Consider the enormous cost to give up an employed work-force, since acquisition and maintenance cost for a large work-force is high. Why wouldn't a second firm, faced with the same inputs as the first, make the same decision as the first?

maxerickson2• 9 years ago

Oakland county just to the north of Detroit is one of the wealthiest (93/3100 by per capital income), most educated counties (44% have bachelors or higher; San Francisco is 54%) in the country.

Washtenaw County, just to the west, is also high on both of those measures.

Wayne County (where Detroit is located) is middle of the pack on those measures, not at the bottom.

caseysoftware2• 9 years ago

I remember one of the political parties crowing about how they saved the auto industry in Michigan during the last major financial crisis. Funny, as I live there, and I remember one of the people who lives in my sub whose business was destroyed by this "saving" thanks to many long held overdue invoices at one of the car company's being zeroed out, coming to my front door, with his son to ask for help. Food specifically.

Yes, "forgiving debt" always sounds like a great idea from the debtors' perspective. Debt holds most people down for some period of their lives..

But the flip side is that for every debtor, there are lenders.

Those lenders give their money with some level of confidence that they'll get it back. When they don't, it's going to be an annoyance for the top few percent of companies and people who can take the loss.. and punish the middle who (in the best case) could have lent it for other investments or (in the worst case) destroy others won't be able to pay their employees and provide for their families.

nate_meurer4• 9 years ago

"Coal is evil as I've heard. And the people who mine it? They are the ones now suffering because, you know, its evil, and coal must die."

That's a strawman. Coal isn't dying because it's evil. Thermal coal is dying because it can't compete with cheaper, more efficient natural gas generation.

danans• 9 years ago

Giving money directly to people may help for a while, but is likely to spark inflation,

I take it you are referring to Universal Basic Income. It would only cause inflation if the most of the goods in their basket of unmet needs were supply constrained. But those commodities (i.e household goods), are not supply constrained at all, due in no small part to industrial efficiency and globalization, so they likely won't experience inflation.

Scarce valuable goods and services, like education and housing in areas of high demand (not rural WV), would see inflation, but even that would be mitigated somewhat by a progressive UBI benefit.

Foolish policies that do not contemplate consequences for actions, apart from the groups that the politicos favor, help decimate regions like this.

This is pinning responsibility on the Obama administration for the failures of an industry that mismanaged itself with short term thinking, kicked the can down the road, and in doing so set up a no-win collapse situation that the government had to clean up because the alternative was likely much worse. The time bomb was ticking regardless of the political scenario. The 2008 recession just sped up the clock a bit at the end.

We have GM today because of the bailout. You might argue we should have let it all go down in flames and hopefully something would take it's place, buy that process would arguably be even more damaging to the local economy.

r00fus2• 9 years ago

Some argue that unions would help (they wouldn't), or anti-globalism would stop factories/industries from moving (maybe temporarily). The sad fact remains that industries are, to a degree, tied to regions, and people grow up depending upon those industries in those regions. Once the industry finds a lower cost mechanism to come to market, those dependent people are cut free.

I want to clarify that China is doing a great job being very protectionist about areas like social networks (WeChat) and search (Baidu) - making it impossible for the giants to compete.

If protectionism works, then maybe it's not that the US can't do it, but it simply doesn't work with our political model.

It is highly possible that in 50 years, people will talk about the failed model of democratic republics, whereas capitalist communism dominates.

For example, if we had universal health care I think many smaller companies would exist lessening the rust belt phenomenon.

ams61103• 9 years ago

what do you do when the fish are just gone?

Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

banned1• 9 years ago

This is the Hacker News' equivalent comment of "Let them eat cake". I hope things are going well in The Capitol.

Where do you suppose they would live? Under a bridge in San Francisco? Unless you are going to host them.

hpcjoe10• 9 years ago

Assume, as the story implies, that they haven't the money to move. Moving costs money.

Exactly what should they do?

Channeling Marie Antoinette is obviously not the right answer (e.g. moving to the jobs) as they are functionally immobile, and as the article notes, they are disabled.

Note: the above question is somewhat rhetorical. There is no real answer, or rather no easy answer. Basic income may help, or it may delay eventual help.

logfromblammo5• 9 years ago

Ah, so we should abandon capital investment and revert to nomadic lifestyles, where swarms of people wander the landscape looking for work.

They should be investing in their own caravan carts, rather than paying $300/month for just enough floor to throw down a mattress? Like Roma (Gypsy), Irish Travelers, or hoboes? Yes, those are all cultures valued well by the landowner class.

You can't solve a regional problem by depopulating the region. You'll just end up with the same problems in the neighboring region.

And in the metaphor, the fish are gone. As in extinct. Coal mining is dead. Natural gas extraction and green energy killed it. People still working in the industry are the isopods picking over the carcasses. Eventually, they will get down to the bones, and they too will have to find something else to eat.

monsieurgaufre• 9 years ago

Mobility is not the same for everyone for a multitude of reasons.

deadmetheny3• 9 years ago

I know this is hard for valley drones with no loyalties to comprehend, but not everyone is able or afford to move in the first place, or willing to move even if they could scrape it. Moving is expensive and when the only thing in the world you have is your family and friends, would you just up and give that up? Especially for those who are not in their 20s. And where do you live when you do move, when you have no money to save and you have to struggle to live in a shack with no plumbing or kitchen or bed? "Just move" is not a tenable solution.

mythrwy• 9 years ago

It seems more practical to move the fish to where the people are.

mmirate3• 9 years ago

If all you ever knew is coal mining, that's your condition that prevents you from finding gainful employment.

Why can they not expand their knowledge?

And if they truly cannot, then ...

What productive purpose can we possibly expect them to have? Or in other words: why should we evaluate them as non-negligible?

fallingfrog• 9 years ago

You know, you should really think about your usage of that word "evaluate". These are people, but you're talking about them in the language that a master might use to discuss the value of a slave- as in, how many dollars do they bring in. What's the value of a bedtime story read to a child? We are all going to die man, life is not about money and profit. Go outside and breathe the fresh air and rethink your life.

Mediterraneo103• 9 years ago

And everyone is on social security disability.

I spent several years during and after university hitchhiking all around the world. After seeing most of Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa, I had a general idea of what kind of people are driving around during the day. And then I traveled across the USA .

It turns out that benefits cheats are a very distinct category there in a way they aren’t a thing in most other countries (even Canada). With so many of my drivers, conversations would go like this: "So, what do you do?" "I’m on disability.” "Are you disabled?" "No, but I fool the government into giving me a cheque". They had nothing better to do during the day than drive around, though I have no idea how how they could afford petrol.

If you threw out the penalty for working...

Indeed, basic income might be a better solution. It would let people claim benefits and work. And people would no longer have to be lying and deceitful to get their money; the prevalence of that kind of behaviour must have some spiritual impact on the community and trust in government. On the other hand, unlike certain countries that heavily fund culture in rural areas so that perpetually unemployed people have libraries and theatres and regional chamber orchestras to spend their time at productively, people in the complete cultural vacuum described in the linked article would probably continue to act self-destructively even with basic income.

thehardsphere7• 9 years ago

unlike certain countries that heavily fund culture in rural areas so that perpetually unemployed people have [places] to spend their time at productively

Could you cite examples of what countries these are who pursue these policies for the stated objective of giving poor people things to do while not working? I've never heard of this as a policy objective before for subsidizing libraries and "culture", and I am very curious about how well it works.

jdietrich• 9 years ago

Sham disability is an integral part of the US welfare system, because it's politically expedient. It allows the government to pay poor people just enough to avoid a violent revolution, while sidestepping the issue of the "deserving poor". It also conveniently conceals the real rate of unemployment - you can pretend that your unemployment rate is 4.2% if you've recategorised most of your long-term unemployed citizens as disabled. The claimants aren't cheating the system, they're using it as it was designed to be used.

Britain did much the same thing after the decline of heavy industry. The number of disability benefit claimants trebled in 20 years, concentrated almost entirely in towns that used to have a mine, a steel mill or a shipyard. In some parts of the UK, over 20% of the working-age population are claiming disability benefits. Staff at welfare offices were effectively coaching people on how to claim disability benefits, because it helped them meet their performance targets.

rgrieselhuber3• 9 years ago

This was indeed a depressing article. It would be interesting to see the data around this phenomenon - how many instances of this are occurring now vs. 10-20-30-40 years ago? Surely globalism is having some measurable impact on the capability of rural populations to find work and make a living. Curious about other factors as well.

Mediterraneo103• 9 years ago

"Surely globalism is having some measurable impact on the capability of rural populations to find work and make a living."

Globalism has had a huge, positive impact on the ability of many rural populations to find work by allowing them to no longer be rural populations. Look at how the growth of outsourced manufacturing in China led to the largest migration in human history, as dirt-poor subsistence farmers were able to find better jobs in the cities. Similarly, European integration has allowed people from miserable places in rural Romania or Bulgaria to move to Spain or Germany for better jobs.

Even the people who stay in those rural places benefit, because prosperous people in the cities send money back home to their families. I get the impression that in the USA, however, people who have made a good life in the cities don’t send much money back home.

nikdaheratik3• 9 years ago

I don't think you can just pin this all on one issue. "Globalism" mainly means moving manufacturing overseas, but that's not really applicable for most rural locations. "Immigration" especially the undocumented kind, is centered around low-wage service sectors. Again, not mainly part of the rural economy.

The main issues are the collapse of coal and other higher wage resource extracting jobs, the take over of family farms by large corporations, and the fact that the majority of U.S. economic growth in the last 20+ years has been centered around very large cities. And it's pretty much impossible for people in these towns to get in on any of it since they don't have the networks, the skills, or the savings they would need to start from scratch in one of those cities.

johnvanommen• 9 years ago

That's a good point. I grew up poor as fuck, and there's a huge set of rules which incentivize poverty. For instance, if the family makes more than a certain amount, you lose health care.

So you wind up in a situation where you're basically discouraged from working.

I remember going to the dentist when I turned 18, and I was stunned to see the bill. I'd never seen a medical bill in my entire life.

oftenwrong• 9 years ago

Reminds me of a few articles I have bookmarked - more about suburban than rural, and how the people get by:

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2016/12/6/best-of-2016-s...

https://granolashotgun.com/2016/08/15/suburban-poverty/

https://granolashotgun.com/2015/03/30/affordable-housing-mau...

https://granolashotgun.com/2017/08/04/the-precariat-shoppe/

megaman223• 9 years ago

No shit. The tricky thing with this kind of work is it has to be all cash-only, under the table. Best if nobody sees you doing it, which rules out a lot of the more legitimate kinds of side work - if you're supposed to be 80% disabled, it looks a little fishy when you're out cutting lawns or splitting firewood or caretaking... I grew up on the northern end of Appalachia, and huge numbers of people there supplement their income growing a little cash crop out in the woods - you had to be a little careful in places that you didn't blunder into a plantation when you were out deer hunting. I wonder whether the recent legalization pushes are putting a hurting on that front.

seanmcdirmid• 9 years ago

Hey, that kind of describes Washington state, Oregon, and even California.

donavanm• 9 years ago

I grew up in the california mountains. Marijuana was a notable factor in the local economy. When CA passed medical marijuana I dont recall any adverse impact on prices. My supposition is this basically used existing supply and allowed for very small scale personal production. As recently as 2010 wholesale prices were in $3000/lb range.

When CO & WA legalized recreational use they followed the liquor industry producer/distributor/retailer model. This explicitely provided for large scale commercial production. By 2014-15 wholesale prices had dropped to $2000/lb or so. Today I think wholesale is down around $1000/lb on the west coast. In some shops retail prices are $1250-1500/lb.

In short, yes prices have dropped precipitously in the past few years. And Id expect further decline as large commerical operations continue to grow in well regulated states. Small personal grows will still be strictly profitable. But the small "family business" black market operations are being squeezed quite hard.

Caveat, numbers from memory and im not in the business myself.

cyberpunk0• 9 years ago

Welcome too late stage capitalism

TheAdamAndChe2• 9 years ago

Just so you know, you're being downvoted not because of your views on capitalism(a critique of which was the point of this post), but rather because of the lack of substance your comment contained. In the future, your comments will be better received if you state the reasoning behind your viewpoint so that we may learn from and discuss it.

Edit: To those downvoting me, can you please explain why? Because I'm just trying to maintain the productive, thought-provoking culture that HN contains.

24gttghh2• 9 years ago

She lit a home-rolled cigarette and, getting to work with a mattock, tried to ignore the weather. She had lately been telling herself that she had to stop taking these risks. They were more than an hour from the nearest hospital, and what if she had another heart attack?

Yeah...she seems to be ignoring the heart-attack risk she is pumping into her lungs while she says that. I get that it's an addiction that is hard to kick, but come on. If you've already had quintuple bypass surgery, maybe it's time to give up smoking?

mrskitch• 9 years ago

I can relate to this sentiment, but you've got take into account the whole story:

- Failing health, already has nearly died. - No safety net. - Risks life every time this voyage is made. - Doesn't have access to many resources.

Here you have someone who doesn't have (what appears to be) working plumbing. Doesn't even have a _kitchen_ (just a hot pad). No assets or finances to speak of. Likely no support network. On top of all of that you want them to tackle a nearly impossible task of giving up addiction? I'll note that many many people with all the resources in the world cannot break addiction, let alone someone with nearly no resources.

Definitely not wise for her to continue with her habits as they are. But given the amount of stress and pressure, along with impending doom, some semblance of mercy should be exercised. It's not like she already doesn't have other major problems requiring her attention

riot5043• 9 years ago

I view smoking as a kind of break from life. It has a calming effect. Many people smoked during my deployments to Iraq for the same reason - it calms you and allows a simple break otherwise not found. I don't smoke as the smell gives me a terrible headache but I understand the reasoning - particularly when life is hard.

javajosh3• 9 years ago

This article makes plain that she, and everyone she knows are, economically speaking, dead-men walking. And there is a certain dignity offering someone a smoke before they accept their doom.

The question that plagues me is: can I give her a job? What could this woman do, online or off, that would be valuable to society? Is Mechanical Turk, marketed to the rural poor, a solution?

emperorcezar• 9 years ago

You assume they have the resources to do online work, like an internet connection capable of doing so and the capital to get that connection before doing the work. Also a computer or phone capable of doing the work.

reaperducer7• 9 years ago

This is why West Virginia, North Dakota, Nevada, and other low-education states are magnets for call centers coming back onshore.

They may be dumb as a brick in American terms, but they're able to function at a higher level than the average Indian call center employee, at a comparable salary, and they have the right accents.

amigoingtodie11• 9 years ago

How would she connecto to the internet?

Super expensive LTE or satellite connection, or overpriced Shentel cablemodem, or DSL, where upload will be less than 1Mbps.

jpindar• 9 years ago

I bet a lot of them could make crafts that could be sold online, if there were someone there with a computer & internet to do the actual selling, and perhaps to purchase materials.

In some cases, they'd be preserving authentic folk art.

notlisted• 9 years ago

Hmmm. Smoking is more cost-effective than eating in many parts of the USA. Plenty of research exists as well on the self-medication benefits of nicotine use (ADHD, depression, etc.)

thaumaturgy7• 9 years ago

This kind of sentiment is exactly why more liberals need to read more articles like this one. If you've never lived that life, it's easy to sit back and proclaim for someone else how much better things might be for them if only they didn't do things the way they do. It makes it easy to dismiss their problems as entirely their own fault while we get to feel good about giving out some solid advice.

Those cigarettes and that beer is what keeps her going every month. They are likely her only real source of meager happiness.

She doesn't have Netflix. Internet. Literally, a toilet to piss into. She doesn't smoke them because she's addicted, she smokes them because they make her life, for a short term, a little tiny bit better.

Y'ever notice how, the poorer people are, the worse their habits are? How they tend to eat more junk food, exercise less, spend more money on trivial things? Yeah, that's why. Healthy living is a luxury and an awful lot of folks have forgotten about that.

lloyd-christmas• 9 years ago

I hate to be the bearer of reality, but...

This kind of sentiment is exactly why more [conservatives] need to read more articles like [some other expose about being poor, but in the city instead]. If you've never lived that life, it's easy to sit back and proclaim for someone else how much better things might be for them if only they didn't do things the way they do. It makes it easy to dismiss their problems as entirely their own fault while we get to feel good about giving out some solid advice.

Those cigarettes and that beer is what keeps her going every month. They are likely her only real source of meager happiness.

seem_2211• 9 years ago

If we were honest, we'd find it very difficult to properly condemn the spending habits of the poor. I spent $20 on breakfast today for goodness sakes - that's probably more discretionary income than a lot of these folks have for a month. But that $20 of mine isn't really going to be missed, because I have a job that pays me an order of magnitude more than these folks earn. $700 a month to live on? That's what, 2 weeks rent for a single room in San Francisco.

At a root level, living brings on a level of expenses. It varies from place to place, but no matter how frugal you are, there are some expenses you simply can't run from. Once you've passed that level, it's easy to save.

24gttghh2• 9 years ago

Smoking makes you feel better in the short term because your body is jonesing for that nicotine, and dopamine gets released when you give your body the nicotine. Then you don't smoke, and you feel shitty until the next nicotine hit. You give a poor justification for an addiction, and the happiness is merely a result of the feedback loop of nicotine > dopamine > no nicotine > dopamine crash > nicotine > dopamine > etc. I'm bastardizing the chemical reactions, but you get the idea.

I'm pretty sure medical science would say she is smoking because she's addicted.

If she didn't smoke, she would be less likely to die of a fucking heart attack so she could actually work and be actually healthy. I'm not shitting on all poor people making poor decisions, just this lady who has at least one easily solvable problem (smoking while being a heart surgery survivor).

Healthy living is not a luxury. Not drinking soda/eating junk food every day and walking are quite free if I recall...

hestipod10• 9 years ago

I will explain if you care to listen. Imagine you have no energy and are in pain all the time. A cup of coffee or a cigarette gives you a TINY respite. A few hours of feeling LESS worse. Then like all addictions you need more or you feel even worse. Suddenly it takes 5 cups of coffee a day just to not feel sicker and nobody wants to feel sicker when everything else about their life is horrible.

Now extrapolate that to pain pills, sleeping pills, risky behavior of any sort. When you live day to day and have no safety any pleasure or escape has an immense draw. There is also an element to "who cares I am screwed anyway" that we face every single day. In the end you are judging people on some sterile, elevated point of view and it's not real life.

hestipod10• 9 years ago

This is probably the last post I will make lest I be accused of spamming...and I am probably wasting my breath...but I want to put a human face on this.

I am middle aged. I was strong and healthy and worked multiple jobs serving the community. I paid taxes and believed that if I needed help it would be there. I was ruined by unneeded and poorly done surgery I was scared into having and since then everything had rotted and faded as systems failed me and people turned on me. I live in severe pain daily with no healthcare beyond an income based primary care clinic for once or twice a year nonsense. I live trapped in the middle of nowhere with no public transport with the last people who will offer a bed and they did so to lord it over others and resent me daily. My meager partial pension covers my food and medication and the big expenses like a CT scan or surgery I have put off for years are ignored. I eat Walmart branded canned goods and cheap fresh stuff. I don't even have a computer anymore as mine and the backup from when I had a life gave up. Once someone donated an old one to me but it had issues and cost too much to fix. I use an external HD on a borrowed laptop I have irregular access to just to get online and have some exposure to the outside world. BTW the internet here is 1mpbs and irregular so add that to the mess. Imagine thinking daily of ending your life or deciding to run away to a cheaper place knowing it will be a dead end too sooner than later but you have no other hopes.

Now...if you read all that. Imagine living that way. With nothing but scraps. Imagine seeing no hope. Imagine years go by losing more and more. Now imagine how buying some junk food or a beer or a lottery ticket or some other "waste of money" brings you just a tiny little escape or joy or moment to not suffer and hate everything. Imagine when you DO that people jump all over you judging you and making you feel worse. I don't know if you even can truly imagine living like that...but I hope you do and reconsider. We are human beings and not abstract objects. We want lives as much as you do. Please consider this next time you encounter this topic or someone you are put off by...despite what you probably think it could be you next.

Diederich4• 9 years ago

Thank you for posting all of these.

I am well off by most standards, and though I've made quite a few good decisions, there is no doubt that luck played, by far, the biggest part.

The one positive thing I have to say to you is this: I hear you, and quite a few others hear you too, though we may well be a minority. We know that the foolish, smug attitudes displayed by many are largely attributes of genetic and environmental history.

The only advise I can give you is straightforward: life will always be surprising, often in bad, but sometimes in good ways. It's virtually impossible to know what's coming up. So hang in there, if only to play the entire game that is, though unknown, before you.

fencepost6• 9 years ago

If you can, drop me a line (email in profile) - if nothing else I may be able to hook you up with an old but functional laptop or two.

forkandwait4• 9 years ago

So why can't we invest enough time and money in these people to make them engineers and technicians? Then they might be able to start shops that make and distribute the tourist trinkets mentioned by another poster. Why is the only solution that a large company that someone else creates moves in and provides low skill jobs?

gph• 9 years ago

What makes you think these people wouldn't already have jobs as engineers and technicians if they were capable of that? It even mentions in the article that the one lady lives down the road from her nephew who has a nice house with trucks and a boat. He was pulling down 100k at a coal related job, that might mean in a labor role but there's a good chance he's the type of person you're talking about; someone capable of filling a sort of lower-level engineer/technician role.

Edit: That's not to say there aren't a few capable folks that fell on rough times or came from a rough background and never quite got a good enough opportunity to make something of themselves. Certainly it would be nice to have programs to help those folks reach the full extent of their capabilities. But that's definitely not a solution for the broad majority of people in this situation.

forkandwait4• 9 years ago

I am amazed by the pervasiveness of the assumption that most of the human race is inherently just too stupid to become upper middle like us.

weberc22• 9 years ago

One obvious answer to your question is that they lack affordable access to training, which is what the OP purposes to address. Of course it's entirely possible that providing said training is economically infeasible or that most of these folks (as you seem to presume) aren't a good fit for this type of work.

smt88• 9 years ago

You should look into our extensive federal retraining programs, which have this goal.

Oftentimes, the problem is age. Older people just finishing training still won't get a job.

Other times, the problem is that they refuse to relocate to another part of the country to get the job they trained for.

It sounds great in theory, but it requires a lot of flexibility that not everyone can have.

forkandwait4• 9 years ago

If you are getting TANF, they generally kick you off after a year of training, and disallow getting an AA much less going to college. It takes a lot more than that to make up for a semi literate, etc., growing up.

convolvatron3• 9 years ago

the trinket economy is a race the bottom. if you get a high enough profile or successful design suddenly shipping containers start arriving filled with nearly exact copies for 1/50th of what you were charging.

and what you were charging was almost $5/hr for your labor. maybe more if you can invest in capitol equipment like a water jet.

skilled technical labor (machinist, welder, cabinetry, jewelry, etc) isn't much of a growth industry either. but people are still hiring if you already have experience

smt rework is a thing, but that seems like its inherently limited in volume.

i think its pretty tough for someone in a garage to make it work..if anyone has any ideas though..

throwaway98vs• 9 years ago

Not. Everyone. Needs. To. Be. An. Engineer. Jesus. Christ.

mbesto2• 9 years ago

Have you personally ever tried to train a low skilled laborer into something they have little to no experience in or desire to do?

This is the same argument that I've heard from people (mainly young tech workers) that losing 1.5M truck drivers will just require "re-training". The reality that we can simple "turn a knob" and re-train people is extremely myopic.

forkandwait4• 9 years ago

I said "invest time and money", nowhere did I say it would be easy or cheap or fast. The only reason I am upper middle class is because I got an enormous amount of investment growing up, from books to nutrition to upper middle family friends/role models to just plain good adv8ce. If you took my talents and plopped them in a working class family in rural wherever, I would be driving truck and getting high until it all apart, just like the people in the article.

vkou3• 9 years ago

Re-skilling is a great solution for any one person when their coal job went away. You don't see pictures of those people in articles about American poverty.

Re-skilling the entire mid-west is impossible. Jobs are currently a game of musical chairs. There isn't room in our economy for 15 million engineers, technicians, and shopowners.

blunte• 9 years ago

The article indicates that at least some of the people doing this are well below any normal education level; and in fact, some are below functional mental health levels.

This would need to be an education process beginning with encouraging birth control + providing quality education for the children who are born in these regions... and providing enough family financial support so the children didn't have to quit school early just to help their parents survive.

selimthegrim2• 9 years ago

Even if my cousin/sibling was retarded/whatever the word du jour is today I think I'd give them a glass of water from inside rather then generously limit them to the garden hose.

hestipod10• 9 years ago

I have been trying to find a way to earn and live remotely for a long time amidst constant instability, more medical issues, more costs, and people in general making it worse. Vocational rehab programs are a joke. Despite common belief "everyone" isn't on disability in America and many like myself are in fact rejected. I have no health coverage. No safety. I am expected to do things I cannot do just to live or create some business or job from the ether but nobody can say how except flighty nonsense like "so and so's son makes Android apps and is successful" as if that means its as simple as "learning and doing that" while totally ignoring survivorship bias, my age, my lack of resources or all of the other relevant and real issues.. I am close to giving up on life entirely as I am so far down and have no feasible plan.

seabird• 9 years ago

It takes years and a huge amount of money to train a skilled worker, all of that on top of the drive needed from the worker in question. Once you're north of 30-40 with no real skills, you're up shit creek.

Noos• 9 years ago

Imagine if you as a programmer suddenly woke up at age 30 to find programming as a career was dead due to AI. The government is willing to invest time and money...into you retraining as a professional juggler, in the hope you would start your own street performing job, because the wave of the future is tourist performances.

Juggling was the farthest thing from your mind growing up, and you aren't particularly talented or skilled in manual dexterity. So for you to try to be one, you need to put in a LOT of effort, and it may be for something that you aren't good at, and will lose the few permanent positions as a employed juggler to some kid at age 20 who has made juggling his whole life and has the talent for it. You might also need to accept that you might be a contract juggler even if you do manage to retrain, and that it might all be wasted because you might be too old to be hired, or that they taught you to juggle pins when you needed to constantly update your repertoire and juggle chainsaws.

This is what retraining for STEM looks like for someone who has never considered it. Most programmers never really get that they in essence like juggling, and that's what enabled them to do their career...there is so much winnowing out even at the college level that STEM has selected for people who not only like STEM and have a lot of talent for it, they willing spend their off time working on STEM related stuff, often for free. If you don't have that powerful motivation from a young age, and need to learn or retrain for it, it's a lot grimmer, even if you are intelligent or successful in other areas. I use juggling because for most people, it's probably about as hard to be a professional at as computing is for non-STEM inclined.

dragonwriter5• 9 years ago

STEM has selected for people who not only like STEM and have a lot of talent for it, they willing spend their off time working on STEM related stuff, often for free.

No, that's not true of STEM in general, and actually AFAICT not particularly true of programming outside of the startup scene and top tech firms; the spare-time programmer is much less common, AFAICT, in the legions of programmer outside of those places, and the parallel phenomenon is no more common in non-programming STEM fields than in non-STEM fields.

leggomylibro2• 9 years ago

because disability payments on average amount to less than minimum wage, sometimes much less, ...

Why is this? How are these people expected to survive, if they are disabled to the point that they can't hold down a job, and aren't allowed to work without the risk of losing their disability payments? Busking? I know that's been one traditional job for disabled people over the centuries, but I feel like we should be able to do better.

refurb3• 9 years ago

Disability is often done on a percentage basis. If you're completely unable to work you get 100%.

If you can't stand for a long time, but can sit and work, you might get 30% disability.

Even at 100% it's not a lot of money, but I've heard it's enough to exist.

leggomylibro2• 9 years ago

So if you're at 30% disability because you can't stand for long periods or do physical labor, are you still allowed to hold down an office or clerical job where you work 30-50 hours a week? It might mean unique difficulties with things like transportation, but the government isn't paying you a salary under the understanding that you aren't fit to work, they're providing you a stipend to compensate for the unique difficulties of your situation.

Or, if they are paying you a sort of salary under the understanding that you aren't fit to work, why is it below minimum wage when you demonstrably already have more problems than most people?

Edit: Okay, reading the article shines a bit more light on this, but it's still very confusing. I can't imagine having to navigate these systems without any resources. And even then:

This means recipients receiving the maximum $735 check can earn up $1,555 per month and still be eligible for a disability payment.

The maximum is under $9K/year? That is not a living wage for someone without disabilities.

knz• 9 years ago

but I've heard it's enough to exist.

How does health insurance/care work for these people? Do you automatically qualify for the government programs (MA?) if you are even partially disabled?

irrational2• 9 years ago

So, UBI is basically like being on 100% disability?

lazerpants2• 9 years ago

Disability payments are also based on how much you've paid into Social Security. For example, if I were to go on disability tomorrow, I would receive about $1,800 a month, due to the payments I've made into the system (I just checked my Social Security account the other day).

So the people who receive low disability payments are mostly people who have never had a job, or have not paid much into Social Security. I believe the floor for disability is $750 a month. Which isn't really okay, but many people on disability make enough to live on, so poverty is not an issue for all recipients of disability.

whipoodle• 9 years ago

We spent the last few decades dismantling whatever shambles of a social safety net we had, and we don't give a shit about people who can't afford to live. We say "get a job", and we just don't care.

alexanderstears15• 9 years ago

Speak for yourself, I care deeply about the less fortunate - I just don't think that the social safety net is well designed or cost effective and I think pouring more money into it will just incentivize preying on the people caught in the net.

I think there are solid ways to help people but that usually means investment in them, rather than increased dependence on the system. I'd gladly chip in for this lady to get a solar panel and battery, or a waterless toilet, or microhouse, or access to cheaper fuel.

There's some pro-liberty stuff that would be great for the working poor:

* less emissions laws on vehicles - it'd be cheaper to make fuel efficient vehicles at the expense of some NOX emissions

* fewer zoning laws - it'd make micro housing more accessible

* fewer renewable energy laws / less protectionism on solar - make off-grid systems more appealing

A $10k investment in this lady's life would dramatically alter it. It would give her a toilet, better housing, and energy.

Conversely, giving her an extra $100 or so per month might just go to beer and cigs so she can deal with how crappy her life is and doesn't really give her enough to get ahead.

And that line about her brother having a quadruple bypass is icing on the cake. How much do you think we spent on that? 120k? We should keep the expenditures the same but give people a choice on how to spend it. Maybe the brother would have rolled the dice with Indian quality of care (i.e a 10k surgery) and split the savings with him - give him 50k cash for saving public money.

CryptoPunk2• 9 years ago

>We spent the last few decades dismantling whatever shambles of a social safety net we had

The empirical evidence would suggest the opposite:

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/01/16/us/politics/16fiv...

reaperducer7• 9 years ago

It's so the U.S. doesn't end up with an epidemic of people "on the dole" like they have in the U.K.

PBS viewers may know it as Onslow Syndrome.

thehardsphere7• 9 years ago

"Any more beer?"

somecontext2• 9 years ago

In case anyone else was confused about the reference, it appears to be to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Keeping_Up_Appearances... from the British sitcom "Keeping Up Appearances", written for the BBC but also airing in the US on PBS.

vmarshall23• 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

reaperducer7• 9 years ago

Not sure why this is an article. This is just normal life in many parts of rural America from Pennsylvania to Washington to Arizona.

When I lived in West Virginia, I did note that the Washington Post had a weird fascination with the place. Whenever things got slow, you could expect some big exposé about what a bunch of uneducated, dirty bumpkins we were.

WaPo even once held a contest to come up with a new slogan for West Virginia when it didn't like seeing "Almost Heaven" on the license plates. The winner was "Almost Haiti."

acdanger• 9 years ago

I'm guessing it's an article because a lot of WaPo readers aren't aware that this is normal life in many parts of rural America. * edit: removed comma

amigoingtodie11• 9 years ago

What part of WV?

pavel_lishin6• 9 years ago

Not sure why this is an article. This is just normal life in many parts of rural America from Pennsylvania to Washington to Arizona.

Plenty of people have no idea that there are people living like this in America.

irrational2• 9 years ago

And plenty of people in these areas have not idea what life is like outside of their rural areas. My brother recently told me a story of talking to two 20 somethings in rural Pennsylvania (not Amish). They had never traveled anywhere outside of their town and had no concept of what it was like to live anywhere else.

reaperducer7• 9 years ago

This is true. Whenever I see people on TV or the internet or wherever raising money for clean water and basic sanitation or basic electricity in other parts of the world, I think about the THOUSANDS of homes I've seen in West Virginia, Tennessee, and especially Texas that lack water, toilets, and electricity.

Somehow America's dirt poor aren't as exciting or trendy as the exotic overseas dirt poor.

jccalhoun• 9 years ago

I'm always kind of amazed that stories about how much it sucks to be poor are "news" and not common knowledge.

I remember when Ehrenreich's Nickle and Dimed came out and it got all this press. I was dumbfounded. People needed a book to let them know that it is hard to survive on a minimum wage job?

pavel_lishin6• 9 years ago

I forget the name of the book, but after reading Ehrenreich's book, I read one by a college-aged kid who went from literally having no money to having some sort of relatively good job.

It wasn't particularly well written, but it got a fair amount of press - because it reaffirmed people's "gumption and bootstraps" American philosophy, where hard work is the solution to everything, regardless of context or circumstance.

Of course a white 20 year old can get hired. Of course he has the time to walk an hour to his job and work there for 12 hours since he has no children or elderly relatives to take care of. Of course he can move furniture, since he's young and healthy. Of course he can get a job without a criminal record.

lazerpants2• 9 years ago

Income mobility in the United States is not that high. Most people stay in the income class that they are born into, so most people who are not impoverished do not know what poverty is like.

Also, the level of poverty covered in the article is pretty extreme. I grew up in a low income area but it was not difficult to find some way to make 15-20k a year. My neighbors were no where near as poor as the woman highlighted in the article.

analog31• 9 years ago

One of the narratives of the last election was that the "elites" and our newspapers were oblivious to conditions facing working folks in the interior states. It was probably a false accusation, but it helped fuel a wave of self loathing that persists today. (A friend of mine blasted the NY Times for ignoring the Midwest on the same day that they published a lengthy story about Flint MI).

Yet, when someone does write an article, it's seen as offensive.

Is there a right way to report on what's going on?

ForHackernews• 9 years ago

It might help if they hired local journalists or republished stories from local media sources.

It's pretty ridiculous reading articles from coastal media that covers other parts of America as though it were a strange, foreign land, full of unfamiliar customs.

Or maybe that really is how the NY/DC/SF/LA ruling class feels?

MrFantastic• 9 years ago

West Virginia border is 106 miles from Washington DC. One of the poorest areas of the country is next door to the Nations Capital, that makes good press.

intopieces• 9 years ago

This is why this is an article:

"And when that happens, they come to buyers such as Vance who dry and resell the roots to processors, which pulverize and resell them to natural-supplement manufacturers, which resell them as herbal products to retailers, which market them to health-conscious consumers."

To me, this is what the article was leading up to. The poorest Americans, the most vulnerable Americans, are breaking their backs (literally) and risking their lives (literally) with no benefits, while rich American are buying up the result for health products that may or may not have any real effect for them.

The real story here is that a significant portion of Americans have enough to money to essentially light it on fire on a regular basis while another significant portion is trying to stop from getting kicked off of SSDI.

somecontext2• 9 years ago

In case anyone is interested, https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1994/12/04/... is the article in the Washington Post from December 4, 1994.

While it is a popular slogan, West Virginia has never had "Almost heaven" on its license plates. The slogans on license plates have been "Mountain State" (in all caps) and "Wild, Wonderful".

eighthnate2• 9 years ago

Not sure why this is an article.

WashingtonPost has to generate content to make money.

nikdaheratik3• 9 years ago

Because it's going to be an interesting counterpoint to next month when the Republicans in Congress start telling us all how badly we need tax cuts for rich people. And then talk about how we should pay for it by cutting the meager benefits we give out to people who are hard up, like those in this article.

I'm not a socialist, but the contrast between this and gold-plated Trump Tower is almost enough to make that sound appealing.

tjalfi• 9 years ago

The other entries can be seen at https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1994/12/04/...

hestipod10• 9 years ago

I'm not as bad off as this woman but the difference is irrelevant in the big picture as I won't survive either. I am in my 40s with no skills, a dead CV and the expectation that if I really wanted it I would just pull on my non existent bootstraps. Over a decade ago my life was ruined by medical mistakes. It cost me my career and everything I had worked for. It started a long road of being denied assistance from disability and other programs as I fell in every crack or got unfair adjudicators. I was not able to navigate the legal system for recompense as it was loaded on the side of the doctors despite common belief.

I survived this long on a partial pension from my job, a large savings since I lived frugally, and occasional assistance from others. My health has worsened, problems and needs have piled up, the occasional assistance has tricked off mostly, and I have no hope.

Most people ignore me, some give useless advice that makes them feel like they did something, and nothing changes. In the end it comes back to victim blaming and me not trying hard enough. People who have health, security, and lives and cannot imagine what it's like to live in so much pain and have no real options love to judge.

I have tried and considered all the usual advice like "learn to code" or "just do content writing" that comes along to disabled and isolated people. At my age and with the stability issues I have it's not realistic. People don't seem to get that. I should be getting assistance but this country doesn't do it like the rest of the first world so I am expected to suffer more just to stay alive in pain. I am moving abroad to a cheaper country to try and stretch my pension but I won't survive there either without earning and I cannot find any feasible way to earn that doesn't make things worse. Seeing people talk about people like me here in terms of "usefulness to society" enrages me. I served society...I did good in the world...that life was stolen and society rejected me. We are legion.

dougk16• 9 years ago

I don't give this advice often since for most people it's the "moving abroad" part that's the deal breaker, but since you mentioned you're doing it already, I'll throw out teaching english as a foreign language. Depending on the country/school you might need a small certificate from a month-long-type training course, or training from the school itself, but for the most part you just need to be able to speak English and have a heartbeat.

When I did it I met other teachers from every conceivable walk of life, some with a situation that sounds similar enough to yours. It's the most realistic way that someone down on their luck can "start fresh" in this day and age (IMO). Good luck.

marak8306• 9 years ago

I wouldn't recommend Japan for this btw(I live here currently), it's fairly difficult and cutthroat at the moment. I do have a friend in Taiwan that is trying to convince me to go over though fyi :-)

hestipod10• 9 years ago

I've done it part time in the past when I attempted this sort of desperation move that failed. It wasn't sustainable and took too much out of me being "switched on and sociable" like that. On top of that the barrier to entry even if I could manage is higher than people think...I dont have a bachelors degree and am old. Schools want young, degreed and flexible. If all you have is being a naive speaker you get private under the table lessons for cash that constantly cancel and every other broke expat is undercutting you for.

If I am ever going to earn it has to be remote and flexible but I just dont have the skills or stability etc to learn them so far. I've tried "DIY learn to code various things" sort of ideas before but something always interrupts it and I suck at it frankly. Then I read how old and inflexible people cannot get hired for anything and I get even more down. I have not heard a new idea that seemed workable in so long I cannot remember.

marak8306• 9 years ago

I don't know about anyone else here, but I'd like to hear your story.

I cant help you in any way, much to my own discredit, but if you want someone to speak to, or if you ever feel like sharing publicly, I'd be interested.

Side note, where are you moving to?

hestipod10• 9 years ago

I don't even see most of my posts so I think something is still filtered or else I am being downvoted so they don't show? A mod said the new account spam thing was released Don't understand HN well as I have always lurked and never participated.

I have told my story in forums many times and it never got me anywhere but more exposed and depressed so I don't feel comfortable giving too many details...though I sort of laid out the basics in another post. My situation is common but the details are unique so I'd not be hard to ID and feel more vulnerable.

No need to apologize for not being able to solve it...the fact you would if you could speaks to your character. My anecdotal evidence is the majority just don't care until it is them.

ggm2• 9 years ago

I cannot find it in my heart to admire the people who comment here proscriptively, without any attempt to signal empathy. Its understood few of us (myself included) will be doing anything to ameliorate this situation, and that empathy signalling is at best chest beating, but I still find the lack of compassion in the responses chilling. Yes, not smoking would reduce health risks and spend. so what? If you haven't tried to survive on minimum wage, I am very unsure your critique of their behaviour, which is essentially poverty shaming: you are only poor because [lazy | stupid] forms of logic, adds anything. If you walk over a begger muttering "get a job" you deserve contempt.

If you hate America, vote capitalist, randean individualism.

hestipod10• 9 years ago

This is how 99% of people are. I wouldn't have believed it until I became a victim. Even people who claim to love you and you have known for life. In the end people care about themselves and if you challenge their just-world view by suffering in front of them, or make them feel bad or guilty, they attack. The sad part is for those people nothing will change it but being forced into despair themselves and then it's too late for both of us.

I made an account just to comment on this issue after lurking for a long time but it's surely just another pointless action because it's the same story over and over. Empathy is not common.

occultist_throw3• 9 years ago

This is how 99% of people are. I wouldn't have believed it until I became a victim. Even people who claim to love you and you have known for life.

I used to be a republican. Or Libertarian. Blame my parents, as I do. They're dyed-in-the-wool republicans/christians, where if you have bad happen, you must have deserved it. So they dont help because you should be able to rescue yourself.

One of their most shameful moments was how horrible they talked of welfare. They qualified for it years ago, and made a big point of pride that they never took it. It to them was this huge badge of shame.

So when I had really bad times, I did take it. And instead of hiding, I said so on Facebook. Boy, my parents hated that. Pity, cause I didnt care. And that it did help me get back up.

In the end people care about themselves and if you challenge their just-world view by suffering in front of them, or make them feel bad or guilty, they attack. The sad part is for those people nothing will change it but being forced into despair themselves and then it's too late for both of us.

Indeed. Most in this country will never see that. Or they are that, and they'll never be here to say so. Hell, even the "richies" here in HN have had many discussions about it. And one idea that is mentioned is to sell services to them - and its summarily shot down. Why? "There's no money in helping poor people. They don't have money."

I made an account just to comment on this issue after lurking for a long time but it's surely just another pointless action because it's the same story over and over. Empathy is not common.

We're around. We aren't popular, especially around here. People who focus on empathy simply cannot become capitalists. Because they have to make decisions that preserve human-ness over money, which is completely antithetical to the idea of Venture Capitalism, Capitalists, Big Business, Disruption, and on and on.

There are, of course, token projects that try to show that this class of people care, but in all seriousness, when I stop seeing a fistfull of dollars to X project for "UBI" and briefcases of dollars to lobbying, I'll know that equation has changed.

curun1r7• 9 years ago

I don't disagree with you, but I think there's a lot of people see the kind of people in the article as the opposition to progressive social issues like #BLM, acceptance of immigrants and the very same socialist policies that they survive off of and need to be expanded if these people are to see their lot in life improve. Rural communities overwhelmingly voted for Trump and they form the core of the Fox News constituency. The government they elected is now trying to take away their health care and give a massive tax cut to the top 1%. You'd probably see a lot more compassion among big-city liberals if these communities had embraced Bernie Sanders' agenda which would have redistributed a lot of wealth into their communities. But with their embrace of white nationalist policies and rhetoric, I think you see a lot of liberals feeling like they don't have the energy to care about all of the powerless people in this country and, instead, are focusing what limited resources they have on trying to help other oppressed groups (minorities, undocumented immigrants, etc.)

toomuchtodo4• 9 years ago

You'd probably see a lot more compassion among big-city liberals if these communities had embraced Bernie Sanders' agenda which would have redistributed a lot of wealth into their communities.

Blue Blood Democrats pushed Bernie off the national stage attempting to elect Hillary Clinton, leaving the disadvantaged to only vote for the candidate who offered to champion their cause (Donald Trump). I don't fault most Trump voters one bit. The superior option they had was scuttled by a power hungry candidate who lost to the worst candidate for presidency ever.

But with their embrace of white nationalist policies and rhetoric, I think you see a lot of liberals feeling like they don't have the energy to care about all of the powerless people in this country and, instead, are focusing what limited resources they have on trying to help other oppressed groups (minorities, undocumented immigrants, etc.)

Which causes conservative America to double down on conservatives in office. Wash, rinse, repeat.

EDIT: "Undocumented immigrants" are not citizens being oppressed; they are illegally in the country and should be deported unless covered under DACA (having arrived in the US as minors).

jrs955• 9 years ago

Is "acceptance of immigrants" really a progressive social issue, or is it a pro-business economic issue with excellent marketing? In my opinion it's sort of ironic to promote that and socialism in the same sentence. Bernie Sanders in particular has been opposed to increased immigration in the past. I imagine he's not as vocal about that anymore because it's no longer politically viable.

EADGBE2• 9 years ago

I didn't get that from this article.

I didn't see as much of a political problem as I saw a human problem.

indubitable• 9 years ago

I think in many ways Trump and Sanders had the same appeal to very different demographics.

We've all come to understand that politicians are mostly liars. And I think Trump represented what was seen as a break from the mold because he seemed authentic. He said things that you're not "supposed" to say, he acted in a way you're not "supposed" to act. In general, he seemed to be being a person and not a politician. He made lots of promises as all politicians do, but I think his behavior being far outside of the mold gave people hope and optimism that he was being genuine - that he would actually fight to bring jobs back, work to curtail foreign competition for what jobs there are, and so on.

Sanders similarly broke the mold of a politician. Polls show socialism focus tests somewhere near the apocalypse, yet Sanders openly called himself a democratic socialist. And he talked about many things that have become completely taboo in politics including the corrupting influence of banks paired with a completely myopic monetary policy, single payer healthcare systems, corporate tax avoidance (something Trump also hit on), and more. He said things you're not supposed to say, and so I think we also viewed him as breaking the mold of a politician - and being somebody that might genuinely work to do the things he is talking about.

The behavior you're describing is why it's particularly tough for the two sides to ever see eye to eye. Imagine you were one of these disenfranchised poor living threadbare and barely getting by ever since the day you were born --- and the national discussion was on how to try to treat individuals who came into the country illegally better. That sort of thing breeds resentment. That resentment in turn is then characterized as racism. And that perceived racism in turn denigrates their own position even more, which results in even more empathy for immigrants leading to even greater resentment, and so on. It's a vicious cycle.

I wish there 'domestic exchange programs.' Have a substantial number of individuals living in one side of the bubble temporarily join a family living on the other side. I think peoples' eyes would be opened if they could see we all really just want the same thing - and that's a better life for the people. The only thing we disagree on is how to get there. But somehow in this process instead of seeing eye to eye we've instead characterized those that disagree with us as something less than rational humans capable of being swayed. And as both sides refuse to communicate to the other sides rationally this sort of inhumanity becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

nitwit005• 9 years ago

It seems that you have an issue with beliefs that you assume people have, rather than a literal reading of what they stated. People generally interpret things much more negatively over text channels like email, than hearing the same thing in person, so I'd be cautious of such a negative take.

ggm2• 9 years ago

I agree. in substance, this is what the '84 RAND study said about imputed meaning in emails and flame wars. But, that said, there is a very definite trend in written discourse online about the poor: that trend is, to say they are only to blame themselves. We see it in 'fat people with diabetes who are poor caused it themselves' or 'if you stopped smoking you'd be healthier and richer' -both are true, but both are narrow, and un-empathetic statements. SO, I make a generalization which is perfectly capable of being wrong, but none the less I make it: the lack of visible empathy from people who make single-issue statements of 'self blame' for poor people, very probably implies a lack empathy. [edited]

smnrchrds• 9 years ago

If you blame the less fortunate for their misfortune, you can lie to yourself that it can never happen to you. Welfare? You would never need it because it is only the lazy stupid people who would rather mooch off others than do anything to better their lives would ever become so poor to need welfare.

Accepting that people can fall into poverty through no fault of their own is a crushing reality, as one would also have to accept that it can happen to them at any moment. Many choose to believe the comfortable lie rather than the uncomfortable truth.

eighthnate2• 9 years ago

I cannot find it in my heart to admire the people who comment here proscriptively, without any attempt to signal empathy.

There seems to be a small but vocal "ayn rand" crowd mired in cynicism on this site. Somehow that if everyone "worked hard", we'd all be successful. That is true to some extent but there are only a limited number of seats in the "successful" table.

There was a story on hackernews about a scientist who did nobel prize winning work but had to drive buses for a living.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15422928

There is a lot more to success than the individual. The environment and opportunities available have a lot more to do with success than the individual.

thaumaturgy7• 9 years ago

Logan County, West Virginia, where this article is set, voted 80% in favor of Trump, giving him 10,000 additional votes. [1] The entire state of West Virginia went to Trump.

If Democrats want to change the current political landscape in this country, they might start by addressing some of these peoples' problems while they're campaigning on everyone else's problems too.

Trump (and conservatives) aren't going to do a thing for these people, but at least they mentioned them.

[1] http://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/...

amigoingtodie11• 9 years ago

West Virginia only has 5 electoral college votes.

Spivak• 9 years ago

Right, but they have a great votes/population ratio. Giving small states a voice is precisely why we have the current distribution of electoral votes.

549362-30499• 9 years ago

Clinton did campaign on a jobs and retraining program specifically for these people. But how can you compete with someone saying they'll hand-wave away your problems and return your old way of life?

alexanderstears15• 9 years ago

How appealing is a retaining program when you're dirty, tired, old, and not able to get to a class room?

She didn't campaign on a jobs program, or at least not one that would matter like a jobs guarantee.

bronson• 9 years ago

They don't want retraining, they want their jobs. Remember “We’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”? http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/sanders-looking-to-rac...

amigoingtodie11• 9 years ago

It is a tough sell to take away an $80k/year job and replace it with slightly above minimum wage.

r00fus2• 9 years ago

This is a hard truth: Trump had the populist vote (mostly lies IMHO) and Clinton ceded it to him.

What Democrats needed was to nominate a better populist. I doubt Sanders would have won WV, but I think he might have done better than Clinton in red-areas of states she should have won like Florida or Michigan.

dragonwriter5• 9 years ago

Clinton did campaign on a jobs and retraining program specifically for these people.

To the extent that's true, she did an incredibly poor job of communicating it, and it was certainly not a visible, central theme of her campaign.

And, it probably didn't help politically (whether or not the association is warranted) that her husband also, in living memory of many voters, made similar promises tied to NAFTA, with little substantuve result in that area (and then cut pre-existing long-term safety net programs to rub salt in the wound.)

digi_owl2• 9 years ago

As an outside to the whole affair, i felt the overarching theme of the Clinton campaign was "mutated" gender politics.

But for most people outside the beltway and campuses, the economy and their daily expenses were a more pressing issue.

Thus that the Democrats decides to hitch their horse with Clinton, even though her campaign focus seemed off target or ill focused, and she already had a negative reputation from the Obama years, and being the wife of a former President, effectively sunk the campaign from the word go.

Even afterwards it seems like the main way Democrats can find to attack Trump is on trying to tar him as a misogynist. Of all the things that the guy can be attacked for, that is what they decided to focus on???

csense• 9 years ago

Trump (and conservatives) aren't going to do a thing for these people, but at least they mentioned them.

One of Trump's campaign promises was to cut back environmental and business regulations and get the coal industry rolling again. He actually did pull out of the Paris climate accord.

Is this the right approach? Will Trump's actions help these communities? I'm not sure. But it's simply not true that he's doing nothing about the issue.

alexanderstears15• 9 years ago

I think it is - imagine how much better off these people would be if they spent less on fuel - $50 in gas on a $750 monthly budget is proportionally near what I spend on RENT with my (pre-tax) salary.

I'm not sure coal can compete with fracking so the coal jobs are moot.

enraged_camel• 9 years ago

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the coal sector added only 1,000 jobs from October 2016 through June 2017.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/06/pruitt-...

(You can click through the links to see the raw data, but the article provides important context.)

The coal sector employs only around 50,000 people, so the added jobs represent a 2% increase. And it is unclear how much of that was a result of, or even encouraged by, Trump's policies. We do know one thing though: most of those jobs are being replaced by, or will soon be replaced by, natural gas mining jobs. Coal as a whole is a dying industry and cannot be "saved" by killing a few regulations.

thaumaturgy7• 9 years ago

He hasn't done (and isn't likely to do) anything that will have a measurable impact on these peoples' lives. Pulling out of the Paris climate accord only hurt the US in the long run and didn't give a single dollar back to anybody in deeply impoverished rural areas in exchange.

For someone to have "done" something, I'd want to see some kind of difference in the before and after pictures.

Diederich4• 9 years ago

Once again, I'm probably breaking the rules.

Consider this person: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=hestipod

I made an account just to comment on this issue after lurking for a long time but it's surely just another pointless action because it's the same story over and over. Empathy is not common.

Three (at this time) comments that seem to be very relevant to this topic and discussion, yet all [dead].

Most people ignore me, some give useless advice that makes them feel like they did something, and nothing changes.

Indeed.

bittercynic• 9 years ago

hestipod's comments all being dead seems to prove his/her point.

I thought all three were well-written and illuminating.

Diederich4• 9 years ago

I completely agree.

At the moment, two of the three are no longer dead.

kbaker• 9 years ago

(Offtopic) If you click on the comment, there is a [vouch] link to bring certain comments back from the dead.

I find that this is a good balance to keep the well-written comments that add to the discussion and deserve a second chance.

Diederich4• 9 years ago

Sure...but my question remains: why were the comments flagged in the first place?

grzm2• 9 years ago

If the comments are [dead] but not [flagged][dead], the account is banned. If a past commenter has been egregious enough, the mods will ban not only the main account but also put in some checks to prevent a user from creating new accounts to otherwise circumvent the ban--comments from such new accounts are also marked [dead]. As others have pointed out, if the comments are worthwhile, they can be vouched. There are differing opinions on this method of banning, but it does allow comments to be vouched for.

sctb2• 9 years ago

If the comments are [dead] but not [flagged][dead], the account is banned.

That's not quite right. These comments were killed by anti-spam software. When this happens to legitimate accounts we rely on the community to vouch for them or email us at hn@ycombinator.com.

spitfire• 9 years ago

Is there a non-paywalled link available? I'm not finding anything via the web link.

marak8306• 9 years ago

(edit: I finished it,as I should have the first time. Not that i change my point of view though) <s>I couldn't finish the article, not because it was too heartbreaking, but because of the stupidity of the author.</s>

..."went to the already-crowded Dollar Store and Dollar General and bought dog food, dog treats, Slim Jims, three six-packs of Milwaukee’s Best, pruners for digging roots and a backpack to carry it all."

I have been on the poverty line, I'm damn close to being there again. You have money for dog food and beer? Also earlier noted in the article smoking.

I'm not sorry to say, fucking pull your head in.

I have had to grow my own vegetables and cut lawns to feed my family (when I was 14!), None of us had money to mnoke, drink or have pets.

Oh you spent your day digging up roots? Why not plant something then?(if you're already stealing from public land, why not at least try and utilise it somehow?)

“I worked underground until I started having anxiety and I couldn’t stand to go back underground,”, I sure hope that doesn't deserve a disability payment, there are many more deserving than that. Shit I don't like underground either, doesn't mean I'm disabled, just means that I don't like the idea of that much mass over my head. I can still do other work.

My opinion on this piece is that the author was trying to pull heart strings without actually being objective.

marak8306• 9 years ago

So to the downvoters, do you actually have a logical response, or just a knee jerk reaction?

I have been there, I grew up not knowing where each meal was coming from. I have lived next to and interacted with people who can't make logical decisions about what to do.

I have seen people pull themselves from there, to actually attain something worthwhile, (I'd like to believe I am one of those people), and I have seen and interacted with those who will use any excuse to avoid actually working, or bettering themselves.

So again, would you like to have a discussion about it? I'm more than willing.

I am disappointed about the downvotes without a good reason though, this is why we come to hn after all.

hestipod10• 9 years ago

So what about those of us, who are despite common belief the majority, who are in between? Those too old or broken or indebted to work like a 14yo and hope for a future? Those who lost everything after doing what you did and building a life. Those of us who WANT to better ourselves and be independent but cannot get the support to do so? What do you expect US to do? You are falling victim to survivorship bias and victim blaming when you say "I did it and know others who have therefore anyone can". Do you really think I would CHOOSE to live like this if I had an alternative? You need to believe it's all bored, lazy people so you can hold on to your point of view and feel safe yourself. You are afraid and you take it out on those suffering. I have seen this over and over. Any "discussion" people with such views ever have is full of blame and assumption.

bcook• 9 years ago

Oh you spent your day digging up roots? Why not lant something then?

I'm just guessing but the author may be referring to ginseng roots, which my low-income friends occasionally collect here in Appalachia. They could make hundreds of dollars in a single day.

Planted ginseng takes 2+ years until you can harvest it. I asked them about planting/cultivating, which they said wasn't really viable but they did try to harvest the wild ginseng in a sustainable way.

marak8306• 9 years ago

Yet, from the articles writing, that isn't what they were aquiring, Bor was there a mention of that.

I argue that the author of the piece is either being dishonest(if they were regularly digging up ginseng or similar), not performing enough research or just plain not actually researching for his article.

(Although there was a part about how much the root purchaser had spent that day, and it does seem as if they had either purchased massively under market value(for ginseng), or the roots were all low value.

Also planting for sale is different than planting for consumption, a few dozen fast growing consumption based plants would have a much better outcome if you were concerned about health and saving money. It does take effort and planning though.

nikdaheratik3• 9 years ago

Your opinion is BS, because you didn't RTFA, at best you skimmed it. How about the part where the woman is a heart patient who had a quadruple bypass? And you're arguing about $20 for dog food and beer, but ignoring the fact that half her meager income is spent renting a shed?

The bottom line is that, if the people in the article were mentally and physically able to do what they needed to do to get out of poverty, they probably would have done so already. But they aren't so they're stuck trying and failing to meet very basic needs.

retromario• 9 years ago

It reminds me of this incredible HBO documentary from 2009 chronicling the daily life of a (pretty crazy) rural family called "The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQBiXDNVeSA

occultist_throw3• 9 years ago

Ive been there. Years ago.

Back in '07 got laid off. Company shut down. Lots of us tried to scramble to get jobs, and all the quick low paying jobs filled up. I got into unemployment and started collecting the $207/week. And this, obviously, wasn't enough. It certainly didn't equal to the part that was taken out of my paycheck for "unemployment insurance".

2 weeks turned into a month. Which turned into months, then into a year. Then the '08 recession hit. I saw people with graduate science degrees working at McDonalds. There was no fucking way I could get a job, even with blanketing my resumes and filling out webforms that are never responded (Thank you for submitting your application. You will never hear from us).

And im still struggling with the $207/week. So I start hustling on craigslist, doing odd jobs. Of course I'm supposed to report this. Well, guess what.... I used this money to relocate myself to a better location, and got a job.

Ideally, if you make 1$ on unemployment, you are supposed to report it, and you get $1 less. And if you do work a low paying job, then you get worked to the bone for 30 hours, and get minimum wage which is $187 after taxes. And minus gas, minus lunch, and too tired to look elsewhere. So you hold out for a better one that can get you out of the hole.

Yeah, it's just a bad situation all around. And it turns everyone into criminals.

m777z3• 9 years ago

It certainly didn't equal to the part that was taken out of my paycheck for "unemployment insurance".

You were getting more than $207/week taken out of your paycheck for unemployment insurance? That's highway robbery!

occultist_throw3• 9 years ago

When you work for 5 years at a place, and unemployment law only recognizes the last 2 years as history, yes, I am getting cheated.

The point of unemployment insurance is to cover things like this. And when the govt's law intentionaly blinds them to your previous payments, there definitely is something wrong.

Did I calculate exactly how much I paid in? No. But do 5 years of being paid reasonably well; I paid in plenty.

patrickg_zill• 9 years ago

The real shame in the article is that rent of $300 per month is being charged on an unimproved 10x20 shed, which you can buy for under $5k almost anywhere in rural and suburban areas.

Who set up that deal? How did they get a certificate of occupancy without a toilet?

After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

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