Lee-Gardner Amendment would reduce supersonic fuel burn

https://blog.boomsupersonic.com/lee-gardner-amendment-would-reduce-supersonic-fuel-burn-by-20-percent-or-more-34a189465af4

by Osiris30 • 9 years ago

42 55 9 years ago

blog.boomsupersonic.com

NegativeLatency• 9 years ago

I didn't see any mention of how this would impact overall noise levels. Is there some regulatory process being added to handle supersonic passenger aircraft?

johnm1019• 9 years ago

FTA "Additionally, the Lee-Gardner Amendment would require the FAA to eliminate the Mach 1 speed limit over the United States and replace it with a well tailored sonic boom standard."

barronlroth• 9 years ago

Can somebody explain this please?

annerajb• 9 years ago

From my vague reminder about this the noise was widly exaggerated and booms design had a few things to make it slightly quieter.

idlewords7• 9 years ago

Sonic booms are very loud and disruptive. NASA has done some research into mitigation by using blunt-nosed aircraft, but none of that applies to Boom's more conventional design.

Here's what the Concorde sounded like at altitude, from the ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbPh2llw0-M

pavement• 9 years ago

That's probably because changing fuel consumption goals has absolutely nothing to do with the magnitude or propagation characteristics of an atmospheric shockwave.

Unless the shockwave's shape (distorting coarseness of the wave front to soften the impact of sound waves; think: tweaking the volume knob to fade-in/fade-out a noise floor with gradual easing, rather than slamming a door as hard as you can) or size (how much air gets pushed around, overall) is altered by how a moving body breaks the sound barrier, a sonic boom will still be loud, and reach just as far.

When you crack a whip, the sound is just as loud, no matter how much energy your arm expends making the motion.

CalChris4• 9 years ago

The Lee-Gardner Amendment would help us reduce drag by allowing us to make our engines narrower. Current engine noise rules for new supersonic aircraft are more stringent than those for the existing subsonic fleet. By setting our engine noise to the same levels as existing subsonic airplanes, we could make our engines produce so much less drag that we would save 20–40 percent on fuel, depending on whether you use this year’s or next year’s rules as a baseline.

They're narrowing the engine to get less drag and setting the noise to the same levels as conventional planes.

Skeptical. I know what narrower means but noise is a result rather than a parameter.

Tuna-Fish• 9 years ago

Engine noise is understood well enough that you can choose the level you want and develop an engine that is as good as possible that reaches that level.

LightskinKanye• 9 years ago

"An engine this big generates a LOT of drag at Mach 2.2"

If this is the case write a Medium article about how BoomSuperonic is able to make turbofans go to Mach 2.2

pdelbarba2• 9 years ago

Turbofans have no problem going mach 2.2 [1]. They're not super efficient at that speed but they're better than anything else we have.

What I don't understand is the engine size rule. I'm not aware of any regulation on the size of an engine air inlet....

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Sp...

toomuchtodo• 9 years ago

TL;DR This is legislation Boom wants enacted to allow for more relaxed noise emission levels.

"Current engine noise rules for new supersonic aircraft are more stringent than those for the existing subsonic fleet. By setting our engine noise to the same levels as existing subsonic airplanes, we could make our engines produce so much less drag that we would save 20–40 percent on fuel, depending on whether you use this year’s or next year’s rules as a baseline."

Curious if they've hit a wall in their aerodynamic design and need this to move forward.

dragonwriter5• 9 years ago

What I don't understand is the engine size rule.

It's not a size rule, it's an engine noise rule which ends up (per the article, I don't know enough about the relevant fields to confirm this) requiring wider engines which end up producing more drag.

venning2• 9 years ago

[When] at Mach 2.2, the air feels like Jello.

I know that's a metaphor, but it got me thinking. Can someone more learned help me out: does air behave in a non-Newtonian manner at supersonic speed?

idlewords7• 9 years ago

You can think of it this way: at subsonic speeds, air ahead of the aircraft "knows" that the plane is coming, and can flow around it. At supersonic speeds, this information doesn't propagate forwards, and the plane smashes into the air ahead of it, creating a shock wave.

I'm anthropomorphizing and oversimplifying (airflow over a wing can be locally supersonic even in subsonic flight) but I don't care because I enjoy thinking of this in terms of information flow.

Avshalom3• 9 years ago

I am delighted by the idea of a little anthropomorphic chunk of air shouting "Move, there's a plane coming!" and then face palming upon realizing too late that it is using sound to warn other bits of air about something moving at supersonic speeds.

6stringmerc• 9 years ago

Not an engineer, but from my understanding air is a fluid that can be compressed. At extreme rates of speed in general atmospheric conditions, that results in a compression that the object is punching through. Often I learn about this stuff from high speed auto experiments (Bugatti, Toyota Land Speed Cruiser).

rkangel• 9 years ago

The speed of sound through air is effectively the speed of shockwaves through air. The way that the air responds to being pushed around at speeds faster than its shockwaves can respond results in something that behaves more like a liquid than a gas.

CalChris4• 9 years ago

By non-Newtonian I think you mean relativistic. Boom is going Mach 2.2 or about 1500 mph. Light is going 186,000 mile per second.

Not even close.

venning2• 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid

pricechild• 9 years ago

One of the best ways to get fares down is to burn less fuel.

Edit: Removed the previous comment text here as I misread/misunderstood. This isn't just about the cost of the fuel, it's also about what you can do with the same amount if you burn it slower.

dsfyu404ed• 9 years ago

You burn a lot more fuel going fast in a low capacity aircraft.

Of course the fuel costs per person per mil of a bus are less than a van.

idlewords7• 9 years ago

Boom and other proponents of lifting the supersonic aviation ban are trying to cause confusion between engine noise restrictions (relevant at takeoff) and the inescapable noise from a passing shock wave that is the byproduct of supersonic flight.

From the amendment text (https://www.commerce.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/0238c447...)

Proposed rule:

2) specifies a noise standard for sonic boom over the United States that—

(a) is economically reasonable and technologically practicable;

(b) is informed by noise levels that are tolerated in the United States for non-aviation purposes; and

In other words "fuck you, we can make it as loud as a jackhammer".

jessaustin3• 9 years ago

[EDIT] Many here are acting as if TFA were about the noise of sonic booms, and it is not. From the actual amendment:

(3) specifies a noise standard for landing and take-off of civil supersonic aircraft that is no more stringent than large subsonic aircraft in use for transporting passengers in the United States on January 1, 2017. [0]

That is, Boom are claiming that their engines could be narrower, if they were allowed to make as much noise taking off and landing as large passenger jets make taking off and landing. Perhaps TFA could have been clearer on this, but the reading comprehension is not strong on HN this morning.

[0] https://www.commerce.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/0238c447...

idlewords7• 9 years ago

You're ignoring section 2, which says the sonic boom can be as loud as other things the public tolerates (like jackhammers).

jessaustin3• 9 years ago

It's fine to be suspicious, but one should at least read carefully while in that state. TFA is about "amendment -> more noise on takeoff -> narrower engine -> fuel savings -> lower costs". Literally one paragraph mentions the sonic boom restriction, while the rest is about fuel savings. Lots of comments here are skipping that entirely, which indicates some confusion. Perhaps Boom will publish something else with more detail about flying jackhammers?

To address that issue, ISTM we trust FAA to get many things right, but previously the thoughtful regulation of supersonic civil aviation was not one of those things. If this amendment passes, it will become one of those things. Is there a particular reason not to trust FAA thoughtfully to regulate this sort of flight?

sbierwagen2• 9 years ago

On the very first page of the PDF you linked: paragraph a, "Not later than one year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register a notice of proposed rulemaking that permits the development, testing, manufacturing and operation of civil supersonic aircraft in the United States."

I mean, it's right there. S. 1405 is about operating supersonic aircraft in the US, aircraft that by definition make sonic booms.

cameldrv• 9 years ago

This is somewhat misleading. What they are asking for is to be able to certify their plane under stage 3 noise regulations. Currently, it's legal to fly a stage 3 plane, but any design for a new plane submitted to the FAA after 2006 has to meet stage 4 regulations. Any design submitted as of the end of this year needs to be stage 5.

Effectively this is like a car manufacturer asking to only be required to meet fuel economy/emissions/safety standards from 10-20 years ago for a new vehicle. IMO this is reasonable. Stage 3 planes are fairly quiet, at least compared to what was flying around in the 70s and 80s. If regressing a bit on airport noise is the price we pay to go twice as fast, that's OK with me. I'd love it if we talked about this honestly, and shamed the people who whine about every tiny negative impact of human progress.

zkms• 9 years ago

Good. Now the tiny minority (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/03/0...) of insufferable NIMBYs who spend all day lodging airport noise complaints have something real to complain about.

Alupis3• 9 years ago

The Lee-Gardner Amendment would help us reduce drag by allowing us to make our engines narrower

What am I missing?

They're comparing things to current-day high-bypass turbofan jet engines, which are very wide by design and on-purpose (not because of some regulation).

Sure, part of the high-bypass allows for quieter noise levels, but it's also about efficiency at cruise altitude and speeds.

Turbojet engines designed for supersonic speed are already much narrower, well at least the nacelle is, or lack-thereof (again, by design -- optimized for fast speeds, not because of some regulation).

As far as I'm aware, the reason there aren't supersonic civil aircraft is because of the enormous cost involved in operating them, and the restrictions of supersonic flight over mainland due to shock wave damages, etc... not the size of the engine as appears to be asserted in this article.

So, any new legislation only needs to target lifting the over mainland restrictions (and somehow change physics to not have shock waves...), but you can't legislate-away the enormous costs involved in building and operating supersonic aircraft.

dragonwriter5• 9 years ago

The article asserts that the problem fixed by the legislation is noise regulations that end up requiring wider supersonic engines to meet, which increase drag and cost of operation.

So, any new legislation only needs to target lifting the over mainland restrictions

Which the legislation does...

but you can't legislate-away the enormous costs involved in building and operating supersonic aircraft.

To the extent the costs result from legislative mandates, and are not inherent in building supersonic aircraft, you obviously can.

Alupis3• 9 years ago

The article asserts that the problem fixed by the legislation is noise regulations that end up requiring wider supersonic engines to meet, which increase drag and cost of operation.
To the extent the costs result from legislative mandates, and are not inherent in building supersonic aircraft, you obviously can

The problems with cost are real, but it's more from flight restrictions than drag (subsonic flight over mainland to final destination using a supersonic-optimized engine is going to be very inefficient).

We can just look at the Concord as a prime example. Barred from supersonic flight over mainland, it became economically infeasible to continue to operate only trans-oceanic flights (I believe all 3 operators ran it as a loss-leader, of sorts, due to the novelty). Even then, when approaching the destination, the Concord had to revert to subsonic speeds, and ditch the shock wave while still out at sea. Unless there's some magical way to generate only minute shock waves from large passenger aircraft (I'm highly skeptical here), you're going to break people's windows etc, or you're going to burn up a bunch of fuel and wind up with the same issues all over again.

The other lesson learned from the Concord is, there's very few cases where people need to be somewhere that quickly, and are willing to pay the high ticket prices to do so. One can almost always book an earlier flight, for a substantial savings (I'm also highly skeptical there's any fuel cost savings with supersonic flight as the article seems to claim).

c5174023• 9 years ago

"Pilot Lt Col Ed Yielding and Reconnaissance Systems Officer Lt Col Joseph Vida took off at Palmdale, California and landed at Washington-Dulles a scant hour, four minutes, and 20 seconds later."[1]

I don't remember any sonic boom complaints when this or other record setting SR-71 flights over the US occurred. If you are flying in thin atmosphere the magnitude of the sonic boom at the surface should be much reduced. So, maybe it would be ok to fly supersonic at 70,000+ feet. Of course, it might be disconcerting if you were flying subsonic at 38,000 feet.

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/jalopnik.com/the-sr-71-blackbird-...

vilhelm_s3• 9 years ago

The SR-71 definitely did produce sonic booms, there is a Stackexchange thread about it here: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/17661/can-a-son...

They also point out that the space shuttle flew even higher and still made booms.

I think the lack of complaints for the SR-71 may be more due to the fact that it didn't fly very often, and that people had more understanding for the need for military aviation to be supersonic.

c5174023• 9 years ago

Thank you for the link to the stackexchange discussion. I read it and the Wikipedia and NASA pages it links to. Based on the Wikipedia link the calculated second table by the stackexchange author is incorrect. The Wikipedia article points out that the path of the N-wave will generally be curved upwards due to the temperature gradient from altitude to the ground making the distance longer. The path of the N-wave is not going to be the cone normally depicted. But, there are two things not discussed in the Wikipedia article that I think will also play a role in the magnitude of the sonic boom. 1) As altitude increases, air density decreases; meaning that for a given speed a smaller number of air molecules will be displaced thus reducing the magnitude of the sonic boom at the ground. 2) The sharp N-wave close to the supersonic source is not a soliton and will undergo dispersion reducing the over pressure. That is, as altitude increases and the distance to the ground increases, the N-wave is going to spread out into more of a layed-over-S wave reducing the magnitude of the sonic boom.

With regard to the SR-71 making record setting flights and flying at the limits of its flight envelope to do so(100,000+ feet or "the edge of space"), I think the sonic boom at that altitude may not be noticeable to human hearing.

I know the that the SR-71 and the Space Shuttle have produced very noticeable sonic booms, but what isn't answered is at what altitude did the sonic booms become noticeable or annoying. It seems to me that with all the things that reduce the the magnitude of a sonic boom that it may be possible to fly supersonic without being annoying and slow down to subsonic to takeoff and land. It might also be possible to design the aircraft body to promote dispersion of the N-wave.

Typo edit

Lee-Gardner Amendment would reduce supersonic fuel burn

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