Ask HN: Working in Sweden?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12428682

by throwy667 • 10 years ago

57 39 10 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hi HN! this is a throwaway because job hunting reasons.

Im from EU and currently looking for a new job. I've reading good things about working in Sweden as Stockholm is rising as a tech hub.

I've lined up some interviews (software engineering) and I'd like to know how is like to work and live there.

Anything from salary, quality of life, job market or things I should be aware before jumping.

Anyone working in Sweden?

johapers• 10 years ago

Native Swede here.

Stockholm is quite dynamic in terms of its start up culture. There are a number of ways to network within the industry, most prevalent way to do so is Sthlm Tech Meetup.

Salaries are relatively low for engineering jobs (compared to ex Germany), but should be ok in the software space. Ok in this case would be ~4000-4500k€/month for a relatively experienced software engineer. Do note that tax levels are rather high once you reach higher levels of income (50%-55% marginal tax rate). The tax is a pain until you have kids and you pay almost nothing for daycare and schools.

The main thing to be aware of is that the housing market in Stockholm is completely crazy. It is very difficult to find somewhere to live. If you manage to get relocation support this should not become an issue for a while. Be ready to pay ridiculous money for second hand rentals (compared to salary)

bogomipz3• 10 years ago

I am curious. Sweden is a very practical and policy driven place, is the local government addressing those housing issues in some form? I know this has been an issue for some time now. I'd be interested to hear what the local discourse is on that.

dilemma2• 10 years ago

The housing shortage situation is same as that of the Bay Area if you switch loose VC capital inflating prices to loose, close to zero interest rate mortgages.

As for discourse, there is none. Absolutely nothing.

_zl9i• 10 years ago

No, they're completely sweeping them under the rug and are determined to worsen them even more by importing as many economical "refugees" as possible. The country is doomed.

uola3• 10 years ago

To some extent, but personally I think it has just gone to far in the current direction that it doesn't really matter what you do.

When people think of Sweden as a "practical and policy driven place" it's a legacy of a couple of decades ago when the social democrats, for better or worse, were dominant in Swedish politics. Not necessarily because everything they did was good, but because they could trade reforms tit for tat with other parties so things got done. Today we have a situation more like in the US where there's two coalitions. With this political situation there isn't much that can be done without risking losing votes and giving the other coalition free reign to do whatever they want. So nothing gets done.

Of course like in other cities everyone has their pet theory of what to do, but I have yet to see one that is currently practical and politically viable.

There is one slight upside though. Stockholm isn't necessarily that different from an international perspective. You can still get short term contracts at international rates or better, especially with a commute of 15-30 minutes. It's mostly a relative issue based on culture, size and how things used to be.

uola3• 10 years ago

"Do note that tax levels are rather high once you reach higher levels of income (50%-55% marginal tax rate)"

Also note that this is a potentially good time of year for someone to start working in Sweden. Since the tax rate is progressive and calculated on a yearly basis if you start working mid year you will this year pay the same rate as someone earning half your salary. At least in theory.

d4rkph1b3r• 10 years ago

Ok in this case would be ~4000-4500k€/month for a relatively experienced software engineer

Wow that's insane. Experienced, talented Americans are making 4x or more than experienced Swedish SEs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bay Area, NY, or LA was a bit more expensive but none the less that salary difference!

manarth2• 10 years ago

I spent nearly a year as a contractor (for Ericsson) in Stockholm.

I found it difficult to rent a flat, and I got the impression that this was fairly common. Be prepared to hunt through adverts, and respond as soon as you can after its published. If you leave it much more than a day, you'll probably get ignored. My Swedish colleagues told me that even if there's a phone number on the advert, don't ring it, email instead. And reply in Swedish - have someone translate your reply for you. But be prepared for lots of frustration when house-hunting.

In general, language wasn't an issue - although I knew no Swedish, everyone spoke excellent English. Not just work colleagues, but coffee-shop waiters, supermarket clerks, bar staff, pretty much everyone I met.

Financially, there were few surprises. Housing was expensive, just like any other major city. Alcohol's a little pricier (taxes), and you can only buy it in a chain of government-run shops, which have limited opening hours…you can't just pop to the supermarket for a bottle of wine. As for the rest: coffee, eating out, groceries, were all on a par with western Europe prices.

Speaking of coffee, the culture of Fika is a great Swedish institution, and should be spread worldwide :-)

I love extremes of weather, so a very snowy winter and a gloriously hot summer were great for me, YMMV.

I ended up coming back to the UK, but some of my contracting colleagues from other parts of Europe decided to stay. They've since settled down in Stockholm, and easily found another project at the end of the contract.

Ericsson's taken a fairly hefty hit this year, and are planning another round of significant layoffs, which may have a short-term impact on the tech market around Stockholm.

wingerlang2• 10 years ago

I don't think "fika" should be capitalised, although I see why you did it.

Anyone here knows if it should or not in a situation like this?

dalke• 10 years ago

It should not be capitalized.

adamwi• 10 years ago

Also native Swede so might be a bit biased.

If you enjoy the outdoors Stockholm has a lot of accessible nature just around the corner with large parks in central city as well as accessible and clean water ways as large parts of the city is located on islands. Within weekend trip range you have alpine skiing and wilderness in the northern parts of the country.

When it comes to job hunting there are a number of larger incumbents such as Ericsson that currently is struggling a bit. But there is also a number of larger "start-ups" such as Spotify, Klarna, King, iZettle, etc. These companies are very used to relocate new employees and have a structured process for everything from housing, to tax admin, even initial social activities.

jseban• 10 years ago

Also a native swede, worked as a software developer in Stockholm for 6 years.

Outdoors, yes, and especially the closeness to the sea and ocean. If you like boating or kayaking this is a huge plus, and you can also rent boats if you don't want to own one.

Housing market is crazy, you definitely have to buy an apartment and be willing to make a big investment in this, renting is basically not an option. The city also gets suburban and quiet very quickly as you move away from the inner parts, so if you want to live in a lively neighbourhood it's going to cost a lot.

Lifestyle is quite wholesome, punctuated and routine, and suits sporty people very well. On the social side swedes are reserved and private and the financial and social pressure to start a family is quite high.

Nightlife is a bit on the snobby and expensive side, with fancy restaurants and champagne.

The winter is dreadfully long and dark, and the summer is gorgeous. Many people go to Thailand in the winter and enjoy the beautiful archipelago outside Stockholm in the summer.

If you are a sporty person who enjoys boating, and/or wants to start a family, go for it. If you are looking for a fun place to stay for a shorter time and want to have a spontaneous social life, I wouldn't recommend it.

SmellTheGlove• 10 years ago

Wow, you could find+replace Sweden for Maine in that and it would still be pretty accurate. I live in Maine and Sweden sounds awesome!

Our housing market itself isn't crazy, but the rental market is so tight that you're better off buying. Vacancy rates are so low that finding a decent rental is hard, and it's not inexpensive.

kennell• 10 years ago

Housing market is crazy, you definitely have to buy an apartment and be willing to make a big investment in this, renting is basically not an option.

Care to elaborate?

drakonka3• 10 years ago

You have gotten good feedback on what it's like to live in Stockholm here already.

I moved here four years ago from Australia. The worst part about relocating here is finding housing. We ended up just buying our own apartment and that ended up being much cheaper and less stressful than continuing to rent. Other than that for me personally there hasn't been much to complain about. People tend to regard Stockholm as an expensive city. Coming from Western Australia I didn't feel that much of a difference. My salary isn't huge, but make enough after the hefty taxes to have spending money left over. Public infrastructure seems great, it is safe, bike paths everywhere. People _are_ reserved yes, but there are many Meetup groups where you can socialize. The nature is beautiful, and how close it is to more urban areas is a big plus. Very pet-friendly - pets are allowed on subways, in many stores, etc (although the level of veterinary care and approach here varies, but I could write an entire separate novel on that).

I would ask your potential employer if they can help line up housing for you for some time after you move - larger companies often help with that and have their own contacts.

Also the games industry is booming here. I don't know what it's like compared to your current EU country, maybe quite similar. But after having lived in Ukraine, the U.S., and Australia Sweden is definitely my favorite.

pzh• 10 years ago

I recommend watching "Welcome to Sweden" ;)

elias12• 10 years ago

Have you seen https://teleport.org/cities/stockholm ?

Pretty much gives you roughly the things you asked above.

You can also post a question on their "Ask A Local" board, if you are up for more specifics... https://teleport.org/community/c/ask-a-local/stockholm/

hankmander• 10 years ago

Stockholm native working as a dev for 5+ years here. I'll just add the only two things I see missing from previous posts:

You won't make any friends among the natives. We'll have a beer with you after work but don't expect anything serious. None of my friends have foreign friends. Can't really say why this happens though. We are pretty reserved.

Nightlife is not snobbish as somebody else said. There is the whole range from dive bars to upscale to any kind of nightclub you can think of. It's similar to most bigger western cities. Also, I've noticed the variety and quality of restaurants are outstanding in Stockholm when comparing to most places I've been.

wingerlang2• 10 years ago

You won't make any friends among the natives. We'll have a beer with you after work but don't expect anything serious. None of my friends have foreign friends. Can't really say why this happens though. We are pretty reserved.

I think I want to chime in here that this makes it sound like some form of xenophobia. I suppose this -is- prelevant in Sweden (especially for the last few years with the rise of Sverigedemokraterna), but I would also assume that in this scenario, it has more to do with the fact that working people are in their mid 20s and up and their social circles are quite knit together already. Combining this with the reserved nature of Swedes (as you say) is not the best combination for getting "new friends" more than (as you say, again) beers after work.

For some perspective though, I am Swedish but I work abroad. Even when there have been other Swedes working here, the same would apply to them. I'll have a beer with them, but other than that, unless something clicks, it is merely a colleague.

michaelleland• 10 years ago

I lived and worked in Sweden for a bit more than a year (I'm an American) and one thing helped me get native friends: learning the language. Everybody speaks English well, but I found that the Swedes I was around were much more open when I started the relationship in their native tongue. I really noticed this about 6 months in when my Swedish had attained a certain level.

Now, I'm married to a Swede, and we moved with the express intent of learning the language to speak it to our children. It is a commitment, but as languages go it is close to English.

toddan2• 10 years ago

I think the reason why it is hard to get native friends is that many swedes truly are racist. I am a native swede my self and i know how swedes talk to each other when alone, and the rise of the swedish democrats is also a big proof of the racism(that also is getting bigger) in sweden.

Its not impossible tho and the racism here is more similar to the one in japan, its not visible on the surface but you will never be a part of the community. But! there is good people everywhere you go, you just need to look for them.

throwy6672• 10 years ago

Also is the 6 month probation period everyone is offering me common? Looks a lot to me, I'm not a new grad without experience.

dagw• 10 years ago

Yea, pretty much. You have to take into account that after those 6 months it will become very difficult/expensive for the company to get rid of you so they want to make sure you're 'worth it'.

drakonka3• 10 years ago

Yes, it is normal. Employment laws are generally very favorable toward the employee here. It is difficult to fire someone once they are on a full time permanent contract, so companies understandably want some time to confirm that they made the right decision.

sheraz• 10 years ago

As a foreigner in Sweden you will face the following problems:

- most of your friends will be other expats. Swedes, at least in Stockholm, do not seem very keen to open their social circle to you. Language is certainly a part of it, but there is a darker cultural side to it that neither myself or others have been able to crack.

- As others have said housing is a shit-show. Fortunately public transit is quick and makes long commutes tolerable.

- If you have a foreign-sounding name, then you will want to change it. Swedes love to play the multicultural card all over the place and virtue signal at every level, but facts are facts. Your CV/resume is passed over by recruiters and HR people if it not Swedish enough. Indian, Muslim, and African names go to the bottom of the pile or are never called. Seriously, take a Swedish name when you get here.

- Working in the tech sector, there is little incentive to learn Swedish. The amount of time it takes you to become proficient is not worth it. Worse, if you are dark-skinned and speak broken Swedish it only hurts you more socially and professionally. Best to keep it in English. Save Swedish for social things.

- Quality of life by many measures is high, but there is a depressive darkness here. Strangers don't chit-chat. I've never seen a subway car so full of people be so quiet. Everyone is silent, and that makes it incredibly lonely.

- Customer service sucks. I mean it is pitifully bad in Sweden. From restaurants to banks it seems that there is no training or appreciation for customers. This is where Americans really kick ass, and I wish Swedes could take a couple of notes here.

- There is no 24-hour culture. Strange that a place claims to be the capital of Scandinavia, but literally everything shuts down before midnight save a a couple of bars.

- Gypsies everywhere panhandling, but you are from EU -- so nothing new there.

- Drinking culture here is strange. People are absolutely hammered by 10pm

- The tech scene here is nascent and lacks the pay-it-forward attitude that you might find in the US, Berlin, or London. There is an American guy here named Tyler (@steepdecline) who has worked his ass off for 3+ years to make something happen. However, I fear that if/when he leaves, this scene will die. He might be a good resource to ping.

All in all, quality of life in Sweden is high (clean, healthcare, etc). However, there is a cultural darkness/sadness/loneliness that touches everything -- and I think Swedes would agree with me here.

toddan2• 10 years ago

Don't forget to mention the racism that is getting bigger and bigger here in sweden. I am a native swede my self and i know how we talk and think. The swedish democrats are real proof of how the whole population is starting to show its true face.

If you are white sweden will be great, but if you are anything other than white you will be in a quite cold hell where people do not like you.

Ask HN: Working in Sweden?

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