Arriving in Berlin – A map made by refugees

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/arriving-in-berlin-a-map-made-by-refugees-english-_42855#12/52.4991/13.4926

by chippy • 11 years ago

72 93 11 years ago

umap.openstreetmap.fr

chippy• 11 years ago

The project about page is here: http://arriving-in-berlin.de/

comrh3• 11 years ago

This has the arabic and persian(I think?) versions. It confused me why it would be in english at first.

detaro4• 11 years ago

English is probably the best "common source" that things are translated from/to

gloves• 11 years ago

I love this idea, and hope the refugees settling have a happier life in Germany.

chaghan• 11 years ago

What about the millions of eastern / central europeans that have lower wages and worse quality of life and have been denied to work in german markets when the countries have been allowed to join the EU ?

I guess nobody cares. Oh nobody cares either about people that are educated and can't get working visa because EU bureaucracy.

Thanks Germany.

__m• 11 years ago

worse than getting killed by a bomb?

jonesb6• 11 years ago

I'd be curious to see the percentage of migrants/refugees that are coming from war-torn regions such as Syria. My understanding is that many come from North Africa or elsewhere. Granted violence is also very high in these areas and the economic situation can be nearly as detrimental to quality of life.

detaro4• 11 years ago

a) apples and oranges

b) As far as I know none of these intra-EU restrictions are still active (not that much of the numbers changed after their end, so they probably were really pointless)

pluma3• 11 years ago

Provoke someone into bombing you for months and we'll re-consider.

You're welcome.

Germany.

aikah• 11 years ago

I guess nobody cares. Oh nobody cares either about people that are educated and can't get working visa because EU bureaucracy.

This. The elephant in the room. It is insanely difficult to migrate legally to most European countries.

I would say something else to the people that encourage others to basically enter Europe illegally to go to Germany.

There are people, in refugee camps, in Lebanon or Turkey, that want to follow the law and apply for asylum while staying in these camps( because that's how it is supposed to work at first place, applying for asylum in the first safe country).

What about them ? So people who break the law and cross multiple European countries illegally are welcome, but those who want to respect refugee laws by staying in camps until their status is cleared will be rejected because too many coming to Europe already and all sits are taken? That doesn't sound fair at all.

This whole debacle is hypocrite on so many level, I will never support anyone who agree with it. You're not helping those who are in greatest need to be helped ( women,children, it's obvious they are not the majority of the people walking across Europe right now).

Shivetya• 11 years ago

Well this is the problem any country with a large illegal immigrant population faces. Far too many in the political establishment don't want to be perceived as mean spirited and deport or block the illegals yet the unintended consequence is that those who seek legal immigration are harmed as are those who already are either citizens and recent immigrants as the pool of assistance monies and goods is diminished.

This is also a result of the current view to not interfere enough to fix the situation these illegal and legal immigrants face at home. Nation building has fallen out of favor and the result in anarchy is many parts of the world. Violence goes unchecked and with lax to no enforcement people risk their lives to get somewhere else and will try to get where the best support system exists.

korisnik• 11 years ago

What about the millions of eastern / central europeans

Have you forgotten about the Yugoslav wars? About half a million of refugees went to Western Europe (mostly Germany and Sweden) in just a couple of years.

winter_blue• 11 years ago

have been denied to work in german markets

That is illegal and a violation of treaty obligations on Germany's part if the countries you're talking about are part of the European Union (EU), or the European Economic Area (EEA).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_worker...

You don't need a work visa or any sort of permission from the German government to reside and work in Germany, if you are a EU citizen or a citizen of an EEA member. It is a right.

detaro4• 11 years ago

There were laws restricting that during a temporary period after countries joining, but I think they all faded out in 2011 or so, without much changing afterwards.

dang3• 11 years ago

The combination of "what about related controversy X" with inflammatory language ("Thanks Germany") is guaranteed to produce a political flamewar. Please don't do that here.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10452885 and marked it off-topic.

hugh47• 11 years ago

The posting of this article was guaranteed to produce a political flamewar.

tonomics• 11 years ago

You raise an interesting point, but the refugee 'crisis' is not driven by rationality, history, culture or even morality.

It's a sad, numb and nihilistic political game.

sabertoothed2• 11 years ago

Why is that?

I am German - and I support the acceptance of refugees because of rationality, history, culture and especially morality.

lispm2• 11 years ago

Germany was struggling with the reunification, having added 20 Million people from a collapsed country, the German Democratic Republic. That was difficult enough.

Currently there are no special labor restrictions for EU citizens in Germany.

pluma3• 11 years ago

It's easy to forget that the German re-unification wasn't simply two countries merging together. The reason East Germany was merged into West Germany was that it was effectively defunct.

East Germany had mostly sustained itself by forbidding people from leaving the country (under threat of death), forcefully keeping its citizens in line (via ubiquitous surveillance and extortion) and frequently selling captives ("traitors" and "collaborators") to its next-door neighbour.

Heck, the entire country had been ransacked before it was even created. While the US and its closer allies limited themselves to seizing high-tech and research after WW2, the Soviets transferred a large part of the industry and factories out of Germany as reparations.

Brakenshire• 11 years ago

I really don't know what you're referring to. How have Eastern/Central EU migrants been denied access to German labour markets?

sccxy2• 11 years ago

I'm living in one of poor EU countries.

I earn less money than they pay for refugees.

Our pensioners get less money than these 'refugees' with Armani clothing...

raverbashing2• 11 years ago

I can understand the sentiment

However, for those who want to work in Berlin (or somewhere else) can apply for a German Blue Card (usually you apply for jobs hen the company gets you one), shouldn't be too hard

nikolak• 11 years ago

I'm from a European, but not an EU member country, and I got offered a senior software developer job in Germany. I applied for a 12 month work visa, even signed a statement that I will return when it expires, and it got denied.

So yes in theory it's "easy", but in practice it isn't always like that. (To be fair you're talking about Blue Card which I didn't apply for because I've heard it's bit harder to get since it's usually issued for period longer than 12 months)

sabertoothed2• 11 years ago

Don't forget that living expenses are higher (in "richer" EU countries), too.

pantalaimon• 11 years ago

You earn less than 200€?

gambiting3• 11 years ago

All this statement means is that your pensioners should be getting more money, not that refugees should be getting less. Likewise, you should be making more money than you do, if your income is lower than refugee support money. I see this argument repeated ad nauseam and it's really upsetting, because it's basically saying that other people should have it worse for the sake of having it worse.

programmernews34• 11 years ago

The government should start planting more money trees so they can pay for it all.

michaelbuddy4• 11 years ago

You do realize where money comes from right? That the refugees get any thing when actual tax, social security, disability was paid into by citizens for citizens and even if it was as available as you think it should be, the citizens are having their money funneled and real estate taken from them in ways that are unsettling and downright disgraceful.

dattl• 11 years ago

Come on, don't be a dick. You're exactly like a child that cries because the others get "more" and it's so unfair. Boohoo.

jmorphy883• 11 years ago

It's hardly "being a dick" to expect his government to provide better for its own citizens than it does for foreigners.

Archio• 11 years ago

I hold governments to higher standards than parents.

tdkl3• 11 years ago

Don't be a dick indeed, work more, so you can earn more and pay more taxes for the immigrants (if they were refugees they would stay whereever help was offered instead of storming to Germany), because those loans won't pay by itself and USA, IMF and the banks surely won't write that off.

Right now my country is stormed by them and can barely keep up. Schengen is a joke, same as the EU.

This will probably be down voted since Hacker News turned into a "safe space" (which is ironic considering all the whiplash about free speech on the internet around here), so let me just quote a character called Reality on the popular show "South Park": "You're sad that people are mean ? Well I'm sorry, the world isn't one big liberal arts college campus."

programmernews34• 11 years ago

Just remember to keep paying your taxes, which will increase, and dont complain if your standard of living goes down, your hospitals and schools are overcrowded, or your children cannot afford a tiny apartment.

legulere• 11 years ago

So they would stay in Hungary instead which already has more refugees per capita than Germany and is totally overwhelmed? Or in Greece which is in the middle of a crisis itself? How about Lebanon and Turkey where there are more than 10 times as much refugees, where refugees have no perspective of being able to work and where basic needs of life are not guaranteed.

Free speech is about the right to express oneself, it has nothing to with people not being allowed to disagree with you.

Cenk• 11 years ago

— What refugees wear does not matter. Even if they all wore genuine Armani clothing, what are they supposed to do? Sell all their clothes and buy cheaper brands before they flee? Your idea that a person who doesn’t look destitute or poor enough should not be regarded as a refugee shows how little you understand what a refugee is. The people fleeing to Europe are from all kinds of backgrounds, including workers, the middle class and highly skilled professionals. When a war breaks out and a city is destroyed, the middle class doesn’t stay behind. They sell their houses, cars and anything else they can and spend upwards of $10K to make it to somewhere safe.

— I’m sure refugees in your country get less money than pensioners, just as they do in Germany. Are you saying that Germany should give refugees less money than any pensioner in the EU gets?

pjc50• 11 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

This is what happened last time refugees were turned away en masse with no option but to return to their home country: they were exterminated. The EU was formed with a "never again" attitude to this kind of catastrophe. There are already over 4 million refugees plus an estimated 6 million displaced within Syria. People have finally noticed that they're already dying trying to escape, often in the Mediterranean. The options are to take them in or send them to their deaths.

This is probably going to happen again when Yemen goes up; it doesn't help that the country is running out of groundwater while a Saudi/Iranian proxy war is being fought in it.

sccxy2• 11 years ago

Poor jews. I guess they have learned from history and help others now.

How many refugee camps for Syrian people are in Israel?

tdkl3• 11 years ago

Ah yes, the white guilt.

There's a reason why Germany is targeted as the end destination - there's less chance it will deny them because of collective guilt.

The UK said it will not accept any then mere thousands, yet no one blinks an eye. Why ? Why didn't the USA (who started this shit in the first place) offered any help ? Why don't the immigrants demand that from them ?

The blind left extremism in modern western world isn't much different from the right one and there are a lot of political players who will exploit that.

theworstshill4• 11 years ago

I think the main issue is fear of radical islamists hiding amongst the refugees going to Europe. Haven't heard of any jews blowing stuff up and beheading germans, can't say the same for syrians and middle east in general. The somewhat lesser issue, as evident by this thread is economic competition.

Fluid_Mechanics• 11 years ago

[Sigh] Before parts of the comment section turn into a flame war, I'd like to ask that those with inflammatory opinions at least attempt to stay politically neutral here. I'd rather not know about the contentious political positions some of my technical peers have.

Please save any sweeping generalizations for Twitter/Facebook/Reddit :).

distances• 11 years ago

This is a bit offtopic, but Berlin is really beautifully mapped in OSM. In places the details are more than what I would have ever thought of, for example the individual pillars of the Holocaust Memorial: http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/arriving-in-berlin-a-map...

johansch• 11 years ago

For that one there should be altitude mapping.

zo1• 11 years ago

Adding details to OSM is actually very relaxing. I do it to unwind and kill time sometimes. The job is never done, however, and there is always room for more detail.

toomuchtodo2• 11 years ago

Can OSM accept 3D laser scanner/cloud point data?

mtw• 11 years ago

Nice! Was this done during the Berline refugee hackathon?

detaro4• 11 years ago

I don't think so, at least it seems to be completely managed by the two organisations running it & I didn't see it mentioned in context of the hackathon. It also doesn't use a custom-made interface, but is using the uMap service: http://umap.openstreetmap.fr (So the biggest need probably is data, not code)

dudul4• 11 years ago

The only good thing about this "refugees crisis" is that it could finally cause the implosion and the end of the EU.

This corrupted blob in which representatives are barely elected has to go away.

TeMPOraL4• 11 years ago

And replaced by what? A more divided Europe? I know UE is not the United Federation of Planets, but at least it is a step towards it.

dudul4• 11 years ago

What was wrong with sovereign nations?

A step towards what? This is the big scam of the 21st century. People think that big blobs are stronger than smaller, more focused and cohesive entities. Smaller countries all over the world are doing just fine.

hugh47• 11 years ago

And its replacement by what? The Caliphate? Oh, fabulous.

dudul4• 11 years ago

What was there before? Sovereign countries composed of people sharing the same history, culture, values and lifestyle. Just because all these countries are geographically close doesn't mean that they should merge into one single entity.

briandear• 11 years ago

Interesting. Farsi is not a major language in Syria; more people speak Kurdish than Farsi. Perhaps, and this is just a theory, that some of the refugees aren't actually coming from the Syrian civil war, but are instead attempting to simply take advantage of the largesse of the EU? If these refugees were actual refugees, they'd be in camps along the Turkish border and not applying for (and receiving) long term residency. The concept of refugee is that they go home after the hostilities. In this case, almost zero chance of that happening. It's shameful when adult men flee while many leave behind their wife and children. The women and kids ought to be the ones treated as refugees. The rest of them are simply cowards unwilling to fight for their own country.

programmernews34• 11 years ago

Have a look at the pictures - it is full of chancers from all over the world.

Even the "children" often turn out to be adults. In this study, 260 of the 309 people investigated were over 18:

http://www.iofos.eu/Journals/JFOS%20sup1_Nov12/IDEALS%209-12...

dudul4• 11 years ago

Here is what people in Germany say about immigration in a recent survey:

http://www.atlantico.fr/sites/atlantico.fr/files/u9698/2015/...

Arriving in Berlin – A map made by refugees

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