Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/-sp-jobs-brokers-entrap-indian-tech-workers?CMP=share_btn_tw

by deepuj • 12 years ago

293 182 12 years ago

theguardian.com

waps• 12 years ago

Weird is how many of the bad employers are Indians themselves (or I think so, given they're names):

Krishnan Kumar, from Softech

Malini Sridhar, from Compsys Technologies (found through http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/ )

Tata Consultancy Services Ltd, part of India’s Tata group

Even the lawyers suing these employees :

Past president of the South Asian Bar Association of Georgia, attorney Roy Banerjee has a penchant for wearing bow ties and representing body shops. He has prevailed in many cases against Indian immigrant programmers, winning judgments or settlements from some, while others fled back to India.

lmz• 12 years ago

Why would it surprise you, given that they are the ones having local knowledge on both sides of the trade?

hemantv4• 12 years ago

These are people whose main aim is to exploit the system, and they are doing there best to game the system the best know.

elastine• 12 years ago

That's hardly surprising. Those who sold Africans into slavery were often other Africans.

Rapzid• 12 years ago

"It takes a certain kind of person" is what they say, isn't it? That kind of person exists in all cultures/countries.

selmnoo2• 12 years ago

    This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system 
    that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and 
    most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon 
    and Apple.

I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriously, I'm at a loss for words. Why? Why not just pay them a reasonable wage when you are more than capable enough to?

quanticle• 12 years ago

For the record, Facebook, at least, says that it does not use labor brokers:

    Some companies say they shun labor brokers; a Facebook official told CIR that 
    her company does not use them. Others who rely on them renounce the abuses but 
    are quick to deflect responsibility.

selmnoo2• 12 years ago

Facebook, Microsoft and others do end up using consulting firms like Cognizant, which generally provide them H1-B immigrant workers. The conditions of their employment, at least in my eyes, are similarly predatorial in nature.

rtpg• 12 years ago

There's some saying about rich people being cheap is what made them rich in the first place, but I'm not super convinced this carries over into business.

It is extremely frustrating that a lot of tech companies have ended up like so many other companies : caring only about that dollar metric, and not considering the human aspect. So what if it costs more? At least you can feel better about yourself for not treating people as slaves.

For a while I was naive enough to think that SV, being so awash with cash, would not feel the need to become filled with money-grubbers.

crdoconnor5• 12 years ago

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/11/4086.full

"Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed. "

This doesn't explain which way the causality flows, but my own experience with silicon valley glitterati suggests that they start out nice (or at least pretty normal) and the money and power very, very gradually turns them into assholes.

As always, there are numerous exceptions.

yalogin• 12 years ago

I don't the tech companies do this because they want to. They just try to get a contractor in and because the market is filled with these scum companies they inevitably get into all the companies.

zaroth2• 12 years ago

What actually happened in the story is Wipro Indian overpaid their employee and when they discovered the error the employee refused to return the money.

There are some bad actors here but I found that particular anecdote unconvincing.

Bahamut• 12 years ago

Source?

here_you_go• 12 years ago

Why?

Because

a) it's profitable, and

b) they can. That's all, really.

Excessive money (== power == domination of your peers) corrupts everybody. We don't need any new studies to prove this.

That's the sick part of our economic culture - the "natural" tendency of concentration of money/power (instead of spreading it as equally as possible).

infinitone• 12 years ago

In other words... capitalism.

flyinglizard• 12 years ago

Efficiency. Its not Tim Cook's or any middle manager's personal money, it's the money of the shareholders. Besides, overpaying drives all salaries up and can spark a wage war between companies that only benefits the employees.

eli_gottlieb5• 12 years ago

Why on Earth would a for-profit, capitalist corporation not force down labor wages to maximize profits? Maximizing profits is their sole imperative. They do not love you, nor do they hate you, but your labor has a market value they can use for something else ;-).

If we don't like it, we can unionize.

fennecfoxen• 12 years ago

Most people in the programming business are quite okay un-unionized and with capitalist corporations employing them, because while said corporations are quite willing to push down wages to save money, there are also plenty willing to push up wages if that's what it takes to hire someone decent. That's why talented senior people in New York and San Francisco can make $150,000/yr. It works both ways.

The problem with the H1-B slave is that he doesn't properly have the option of employers competing on any level, because of Immigration Regime Legal Shenanigans.

drawkbox• 12 years ago

screw the very people that work for them so badly

Actually, it is something they probably strive for if they would also do other highly illegal/unethical practices: http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/silicon-valley-po...

The 'unbelievable shitload of cash' tends to make little power hungry kings.

bdevani2• 12 years ago

These little power hungry kings are the monsters we made. These kings have one job and just one job, keep raising the stock price.

One of the quickest way to get liquid, meet your projections and so on, is to liquidate jobs. Get all that $$ back on the books. 10 ppl isn't just (assuming they make 100k each) 1m, its also the training and benefits, and social security, health 401k..etc.

A few dips in the stock price == dethronement, possibly disinterest and the looming specter of irrelevance/demise.

All corporations are about profit. All stockholders want them to be. All people, who often are also stockholders, find this at odds with being a reasonable, nurturing workplace

liveoneggs2• 12 years ago

this comment is hilarious, btw

All employers resent their employees and are seeking to exploit them as much as possible for as little money as possible. Always. Every single one of them. Every second of every day.

Make no mistake- that air hockey table is a ruse to steal your money.

HaseebR7• 12 years ago

WOW, this is scary. I'm from India and thinking of getting my MS in CS next year. I hope i don't end up like this.

abat• 12 years ago

The companies taking advantage rely on their marks/employees being naive, so you'll be fine once you know to be careful:

1) Get direct employment with a reputable US company instead of via a contracting company.

2) Don't sign any contracts that have any penalty for quitting. You may want to hire a lawyer to review any contracts.

3) If you are in a bad contract and your employer sues you, make sure you hire a decent lawyer. The biggest victims were those that ignored the suits or tried to represent themselves and lost their cases by default.

umbs• 12 years ago

I have been passively following this subject for past 10 years (since I graduated college). Your suggestions are all valid and with good intent. However, 'one' group of workers these labor shops exploit are in a vicious cycle and are looking for ways to escape.

The following is typical scenario for this group: A student is enrolled in a university with average or poor CS program. There is no funding/scholarship or good on-campsu jobs. So, student works, often bending the laws, off-campus for more than 60 hours to pay for college. Obviously, education takes a backseat and somehow student graduates with huge debt. They struggle to find job and due to time restrictions on F1 visa, they are forced to find an employment and hence sign for these labor shops who give them employment letter (and apply for H1B visa) and securing students stay in US. So, initially, its a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Once workers realize they are being exploited, the struggle to get out starts.

I signed up for one of these contracting companies and they were paying me $48K when most of my fellow new graduates were making over $72K. I got out after 2.5 years, but fortunately, it was hassle free.

This is a very complex web of fraud, exploitation, bending the rules, and what not. IMO, it starts with mutual agreement/need on both sides, but descends in to the scenarios the post has brought to light.

yxhuvud• 12 years ago

You can easily avoid that fate by avoiding USA. Most other countries don't pull that crap. I don't think Canada behave like this, and most or all of northern Europe is also pretty simple (or extremely simple, in some cases) to get into.

praneshp• 12 years ago

You'll be fine. Most of the time, especially if you get a MS in CS, you'll be hired directly by the employer (Apple, MS, Yahoo et al). You'll probably get a higher salary than a contractor at your level (because the staffing company doesn't eat into it). You have all the problems that comes with a H1B (like a short grace period in case you're laid off, etc), but that will be all.

SOME of these people willingly get into these situations because living in the US for a while improves their social standing (for marriage, dowry, etc) a lot. Others believe in the American dream and come here at any cost and fall into that trap. There is a large group that just cares about getting to the US, and then thinks the salary plus Amway will make them rich.

I did a MS in CS, and got a few jobs (mostly big corps, one of them Cisco, all of which offered to sponsor H1B). I now hate the bay area and its really low quality of life and am tied here only because I love my job. Just keep aiming for excellence, instead of hook or crook, that will mostly help you. The US visa situation is screwed up though, you'll find a lot of articles about it here on HN.

putlake• 12 years ago

As bad as some of these stories are, H1-B is way better than an L1 visa. Talk about indentured servitude. With an H1-B visa, an employee can at least change jobs and find another employer to work for. All the other employer has to do is transfer the H1 sponsorship, which is a few thousand dollars in fees but no legal hassles and not much delay. So with H1, you have decent job mobility. With the L-1 visa, which is almost never discussed in the media covering immigration, there is ZERO job mobility. You can only work for the company that got you to the United States from abroad where you were working for the same company. And for Indians who are here LEGALLY, the wait for a green card can be up to 9 years. A lot of companies make their employees wait before even applying for a green card. So they get a good 10 years of indentured servitude legally here in the United Sates.

jedmeyers• 12 years ago

Some people choose L1 simply because their wife cannot work on H4 but can on L2 spouse visa.

ssiddharth• 12 years ago

This is disgusting on so many levels. Hopefully us Indians can now stop being so starry eyed over working abroad and see it for what it is.

lotsofmangos4• 12 years ago

If someone is paying you an airfare you cannot currently afford, rather than already paying you enough before you leave a country that any paid flights are merely a courtesy, then be very suspicious.

sumedh2• 12 years ago

You underestimate the desire to get out of India.

hemantv4• 12 years ago

This doesn't happen very frequently in California. Its much more prevalent in other states.

ugh123• 12 years ago

Just an extension of the scummy tech recruiter industry we have currently.

houseofshards• 12 years ago

The worst part here is that H1B visas allocated to these scumbag companies end up starving genuine companies of these visas.

shams93• 12 years ago

Worse than that, it also destroys the local talent pool. Employers use visas as a club against local talent, so you go without equity, work 3 times as many hours as you're paid for and when the company is sold you're out of a job. Not to mention taking "hair cuts" so you work without pay and do without basic necessities to make someone else rich, this shit has ruined my life being a coder in Los Angeles, yes I survive but I can't even afford a computer for myself, the employers game the system until you have to go without food to make someone else rich, forget about the dream of being able to own your own computer.

xellisx• 12 years ago

Most of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them migMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in theMost of the H1B's I've worked with shouldn't even be in the positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy. positions they are. Some of them might have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.ht have a "college education" in some area of technology, but are.. ah.. Useless and waste of company money and the US economy.

objclxt• 12 years ago

I see no evidence that H-1Bs are destroying the local talent pool in SF. I can't speak to LA myself, but from what I hear it's not doing that either.

H-1Bs aren't the reason you've think you've "ruined [your] life being a coder in Los Angeles". Your profile has you down as an Android developer: I met a co-founder based in LA last week who was bemoaning the lack of good mobile app talent. I frequently get hit up from startups in LA, and I used to consult for a major firm in the OC that's vacuuming up Android devs. I can't tell you why you're having such a hard time, and I feel for you: but blaming H-1Bs isn't productive.

eli_gottlieb5• 12 years ago

The H1-B system is designed for this. If it wasn't, visas would be auctioned off by the government, with the highest proposed salaries winning the first visas. Visas would thus go to the most productive and talented foreign workers employed by the most productive and talented companies.

Much of our current economy is designed to maximize the exploitation and domination of labor, even when that runs against maximizing productivity and economic output.

gnufied• 12 years ago

Can't agree more. I don't know if it will be viable to insert a clause in H1B terms which severely restricts number of available visas for companies whose sole purpose is staffing.

These scumbag companies affect startup eco-system in India too. For many engineers - the only reason to work for these companies is to get into US. They pay shitty salaries back in India, have shitty working conditions. The only reason, I have seen people sticking to them is - get enough experience and go to US on L1/H1B. And speaking from experience, many Indians will do anything to get to US. :(

sumedh2• 12 years ago

And speaking from experience, many Indians will do anything to get to US.

You can't really blame them can you.

gxs• 12 years ago

When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire.

The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me.

No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a competitive salary. And I was just lucky that she happened to like me. Other people who complained simply got let go.

I sense there is something else at play here IT work isn't that hard, yet for some reason instead of increasing awareness that there is huge demand for these jobs, we fly people in from india. We pay 150 bucks an hour for them, when an eager college kid can do and would do the same job with a bit of training for a fraction of the cost. Something else is going on here.

induscreep9• 12 years ago

Isn't the "something else" just money? The employer gets an employee who is afraid to ask for a raise, since that might mean losing immigration status and returning to a (not as comfortable) life in their home country. With the green card process taking a few good years, the employer has an indentured servant. Indian born CEO or American born, money is money to them.

Immigration reform is essential. If someone on a temporary visa asks "for more" like you did, they might just get fired and replaced with another temporary visa worker. So, they don't end up asking for raises, which means that the labor rate is artificially depressed. If H1Bs were not tied to employers, then this would not happen. BUT this is not in the employer's interest, so I don't think this has a chance of changing.

crdoconnor5• 12 years ago

Isn't the "something else" just money?

No. Frequently it is more expensive to outsource and this is well known beforehand by management.

There are plenty of companies out there who choose the outsourcing/H1B route in spite of the higher cost, not out of sheer stupidity, but because they feel better able to control their workers and are willing to sacrifice margin for that.

Anybody who has seen incredulously watched an outsourcing project come to fruition despite knowing that it would never end up being worth it should recognize this. It happens all the time.

winter_blue5• 12 years ago

If H1Bs were not tied to employers

I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer.

It used to be the case that the were, but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again.

rdtsc• 12 years ago

The college kid presumably could also keep looking for jobs and if bullied to work 60, 70 hours per week would go look for another one. Someone wrapped up in the H1B visa paperwork will be put up with a lot more abuse. So perhaps it is "pay same amount but get more guaranteed work out of it" deal?

usernamepc5• 12 years ago

There are two reasons (both sort of hard to fix) for why contracting is screwed up.

1. Co-employment- Large companies like Google or Apple would love to hire contractors directly but are very scared of being sued by contractors that can claim they were actually employees-not contractors because of the unclear rules around who is/is not an employee. So they introduce a staffing agency in between to become the 'employer of record' and offset the risk.

Things like hiring and paying contractors directly, giving them laptops, keeping them for long terms, training them, etc. actually makes a stronger case for contractors that might want to sue them, which is why you see the weird ways these companies treat contractors (not allowing them into morale events, restricting how long they can work, etc.)

How to Fix- Labor laws would need to change, making it clear to companies how they can hire contractors without becoming liable to be held as employers. New labor marketplaces like Taskrabbit, Homejoy, Workmarket, etc. will push lawmakers into doing something soon, but this is going to be tough given how strongly labor unions are against this.

2. Non-transparency. Large companies don't like to advertise that they hire contractors. They instead give their open jobs to staffing agencies, who are not allowed to disclose the client name when they advertise the job on job boards. The staffing agencies are incentivized to provide the lowest cost engineer that meets the minimum bar and these are usually the engineers on visas that need to find a project soon or leave the country.

How to Fix- If large companies publicly share all their current contract job openings (reqs) just like they do their full-time jobs. If that happens, anyone can apply to those jobs and even nominate the staffing agencies they'd be willing to work through. They already have Vendor Management Systems (VMS) that they use to share their reqs with staffing agencies, so its just a matter of will.

In the meantime, we (http://www.oncontracting.com) are trying to solve this non-transparency by crowd-sourcing the list of preferred staffing agencies for the Fortune 1000 companies. Contractors can avoid bad labor brokers and instead discover who the preferred staffing agencies for any Fortune 1000 company are and approach them directly.

drewrv• 12 years ago

Large companies don't like to advertise that they hire contractors. Do you know the reason for this?

eli_gottlieb5• 12 years ago

How to Fix- Labor laws would need to change, making it clear to companies how they can hire contractors without becoming liable to be held as employers.

Except that the entire reason these laws exist is because tech companies have been caught using people as contractors permanently, "laying them off" on a consistent seasonable basis, and then "rehiring" them again as "contractors". A permanently-employed worker needs to legally be considered a full-time employee and be taxed/benefited as such.

hga4• 12 years ago

Companies are also scared the IRS will come after them with a rusty knife for hiring "contractors" that per the 1986 law that removed the safe harbor are really employees. That's probably more of a threat than losing a "permatemp" lawsuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp).

torpmode• 12 years ago

"... spending his days at a company apartment in Norcross, Georgia. His first assignment:Wait for Softech to find him a job. After languishing for 10 weeks without work or full-time pay ..."

This means free housing and paid unemployment benefit, plus the people paying you are finding you a job themselves. I'm sure there are some Americans who wouldn't mind subscribing to that service. Yes, there's a cost of not quitting before you contract's up, but for some it may be worth it, as long as they're sufficiently well informed.

selimthegrim• 12 years ago

How about, uh, 10 weeks of lost wages at market value because he could have found another job quicker?

gleenn2• 12 years ago

I think it is terrible that companies are taking advantage of foreigners, but I also keep seeing this $20,000 number thrown around a lot. That's how much it costs for a company to apply for an H1B. The companies should not be using that to prevent people from quitting, but it is a very real, large expense to getting workers from out of the US.

The flip side of the argument isn't great either. If Softcorp or whatever pays a small fortune to get someone an H1B, that person shouldn't turn around and leave immediately either. It's just really sad that this means Softcorp, etc know they can use that as a leash and treat the worker like crap.

Someone tell me a solution to this problem given the H1B's cost so much. How do you prevent abuse? It seems like making the worker pay for the visa would fix it, but I have a feeling that is quite difficult as well. Also, it would be kind of crazy to have to pay a huge sum to take a job.

enraged_camel• 12 years ago

>but I also keep seeing this $20,000 number thrown around a lot. That's how much it costs for a company to apply for an H1B.

To clarify, the actual application cost varies between $2500 and $5000[1]. The problem is that on most years, the visas are given only to a percentage of the applicants. For example, if someone is switching from OPT to H1B and they don't win the RNG game, the cost to the company can be enormous.

[1]http://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-2014-filing-fees-uscis-fee-att...

gleenn2• 12 years ago

I stand partially corrected. The visa perhaps costs between your stated numbers, but I've heard the lawyer fees push that number far higher. I worked at a company where the application was rejected at first, and the fee basically doubled to $40,000 dollars because you pay to apply, not to be accepted.

My point remains though, it is really expensive to get these visas in your hand, and the company usually fronts this cost.

klipt3• 12 years ago

For example, if someone is switching from OPT to H1B and they don't win the RNG game, the cost to the company can be enormous.

No, the fees are returned if the petition isn't selected.

winter_blue5• 12 years ago

There's no lease. An H1B worker can switch companies freely with little hassle. It's the L-1 visa that has a lease. Congress passed a law in 2000 called 'AC21' which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again. Please have the sense to do some basic research before forming your opinions. Lastly the cost to the company is actually around $4-5k.

induscreep9• 12 years ago

H1B portability is a misnomer. All that happens is that the new employer applies for a new H1B for you, which is not subject to the cap. So you are just tied to the new employer. Portability here just means that you can choose which employer to be tied to.

http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html

hibikir2• 12 years ago

I have switched jobs under AC21, and I have since gotten permanent residency.

While you can change jobs, your new employer has to both be one that wants to handle H1-Bs (and many smaller ones don't). On top of that, if you were applying for an employer-sponsored green card, like most H1-Bs want to do, then guess what? You have to get your new employer to sponsor you too, depending on the part of the process you are in. And while asking an H1-B to pay for his own visa costs is illegal, as far as I can tell, asking someone to compensate the company for legal fees trying to obtain a still pending green card does not. In my last job before the green card, I had a nice 20K anvil hanging over me if I left before green card +1. And that process took about 7 years, thanks to visa limits. So yeah, I could have changed jobs again, but it would not have been cheap for me.

And all of that, while knowing that getting laid off leads to either leaving, or staying in the US illegally for a small period of time, which is one of the few reasons the USCIS agents can find to end up denying a green card application.

So I am glad AC21 exists, but the freedom an American has and the one an H1-B visa holder have are nowhere near equivalent.

klipt3• 12 years ago

It's just really sad that this means Softcorp, etc know they can use that as a leash and treat the worker like crap.

Legally they can't hold employees liable for H1-B legal fees. Companies have been sued for millions for doing this, even when they framed the fees as 'training': http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17...

"Investigators also found that the Virginia company charged new H-1 B workers fees for training ranging from $1.000 to $2,500. Such fees are in violation of the law."

If Softcorp or whatever pays a small fortune to get someone an H1B, that person shouldn't turn around and leave immediately either.

Then Softcorp should make their compensation competitive.

saurabhnanda• 12 years ago

Is penalising early exit through contractual terms illegal? If not, then isn't this just a case of who has more leverage when negotiating the employment contract? That, and the fact that Indians are so desperate to go to the US that they're willing to sign any contract.

PS: I'm an Indian working in India.

induscreep9• 12 years ago

Penalizing early exit with loss of immigration status could be illegal...penalizing with money is probably not.

klipt3• 12 years ago

Having an employee pay visa fees for an H1-B is illegal: http://www.hackinglawpractice.com/video/h1b-employees-cannot...

Therefore if the penalty for "early exit" is there to cover the visa and legal fees, that penalty is illegal.

http://blog.laborlawcenter.com/news/virginia-company-pays-17...

A firm specializing in information technology has been ordered to pay nearly $1.7 million in back wages to H-1B non-immigrant workers following an investigation by the U.S. Department of Labor in a case that should sound a warning for every employer.
Investigators also found that the Virginia company charged new H-1 B workers fees for training ranging from $1.000 to $2,500. Such fees are in violation of the law.

induscreep9• 12 years ago

Does anyone know if this situation is specific to IT/tech/computer science related companies? Does it happen to, say, petroleum engineers?

fadzlan• 12 years ago

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around.

I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jacked up multiple times when they sent my resume to the client, up to the point that I had to deny I had never put certain things on my resume.

For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company. Except for the fact that the first year salary of said fresh grad are being paid in full by the Malaysian government (in exchange of hiring certain number of locals per year). Some of the trainings are subsidized by the government too.

Which explained how they can force employees to take a much less pay than what they are getting in other countries, where the cost of living is higher, because they can intimidate.

Malaysia job market is much smaller than India, and such tactic didn't bode well, since there are not much replacement to come by when people are quitting, and smaller market means once you had bad reputation, new hires slowed to trickle.

Now, I am not generalizing all Indian companies, there bad apples around the world, but I am just sharing my experience on how intimidation come about. I just find it disgusting that such practices are being practice somewhere in the world.

yen2232• 12 years ago

"For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company."

Even by Malaysian standards this is just ridiculous. The tech scene in Malaysia is growing - people really shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

bdevani2• 12 years ago

This is de rigor in India. Keep a job for less than a year, you pay the company. Its the most bizarre thing I've heard. Sure, many companies here will ask for their signing bonus back if you quit early into this job, but this is literally garnishing one's wages.

yid• 12 years ago

Thats a lovely sentiment. Unfortunately, commoditization of common skills is bound to hit. Things won't be as rosy after.

smm20003• 12 years ago

Eh, happens even to the best companies in US. Microsoft employment agreement stipulates that if you quit earlier than one year, you have to pay back all relocation expenses (visas, temporary housing, etc). Easily tens of thousands of dollars.

Sven72• 12 years ago

How do they get them to pay a years worth of salary if they quit? I doubt this ever happens. Though I don't doubt fresh grads believing them and sticking it out.

ameen• 12 years ago

Ha, this isn't even as severe as what goes on. Some companies ask to pay upto 75% of their annual salary as a security deposit (refundable on quitting with some T&C).

usbreply• 12 years ago

Typically the employee's father (or some similarly close relative) will sign a legal agreement with the employer promising to pay back the employee's wages if the employee disappears. (Legally I believe this is similar to a guarantor for a bank loan.)

Though this probably won't stand up in court, most employees wouldn't risk putting their own father through the trouble of finding out.

reduce4• 12 years ago

"For fresh grad though, if they quit earlier than 18 months, they have to pay almost a year of their salary, which seems reasonable when there are trainings when they joined the company."

No, that is not ever reasonable anywhere in any situation. May be typical, but not reasonable.

hga4• 12 years ago

It strikes me as a debatable point, which is what I believe fadzlan is saying. The company gets particularly cheap labor, the fresh grad gets training and real experience they can put on their resume. Plenty of people in the US are willing to work for free (intern) to get the latter.

walshemj2• 12 years ago

That is a form of debt slavery and violates their human rights in a number of ways

pmorici2• 12 years ago

The US government does the same thing to the American students they give "CyberCorps" scholarships to. They have an obligation to remain in government jobs for the same number of years that they received the scholarship for and if they want to leave early they have to repay the scholarship.

https://www.sfs.opm.gov/

plicense• 12 years ago

I noted two things:

1. "Shackling workers to their jobs is such an entrenched business practice that it has even spread to US nationals" - such US arrogance.

2. Almost all names of people affected seem to be from the state of Tamil Nadu in India.

designml• 12 years ago

This actually happened to one of the people I know. That person had to go through a lot just to get out of the stranglehold of those people. Literally screwed. They were paying half of market and also not even paying it on time. Unfortunately its difficult to pursue a legal route against these people because of the cost to pay lawyers and also the fact that they do it in such a way that its borderline legal/illegal. The only thing you can do is to save other people who may fall into the same trap.

bbarn• 12 years ago

I think this is going to continue in some shape, even if it doesn't necessarily look like this, because these companies are going to India to pay less money, bottom line. Add in a large pool of people wanting to make the move, and someone will always be willing to do it for the types of contracts we're talking about here.

As has been pointed out many times here on HN, there is no shortage of qualified dev/it talent in the US. There is a surplus of companies with bad jobs that don't want to pay market rate, and look at these brokers as risk mitigation strategies to fill the head count someone said they needed.

When cutting costs is your motivation, people have a strong tendency to get hurt.

yegor256a• 12 years ago

Do we really need to use so many words to describe so obvious situation?..

thewarrior3• 12 years ago

I'm working at a company in India and our bond period is upto 3 years long. Imagine that.

Sven72• 12 years ago

What happens if you break it?

thewarrior3• 12 years ago

You have to deposit money initially in a joint escrow account which they can then seize or make very difficult for you to get in case you leave.

denzil_correa6• 12 years ago

The company asks you to pay which you should NOT because it is illegal. The company however can hold you ransom to exit letter etc. which proves that you worked for the company. However, most people do not take that route. There are smart ways to avoid that coercion.

denzil_correa6• 12 years ago

That is illegal.

freshflowers• 12 years ago

This is neither unique for tech workers nor unique for the US. It has been happening in many professions for decades.

Tech is just specifically vulnerable, because despite all evidence to the contrary (wage suppression, the huge discrepancy between reported talent shortage and actual salaries) we drank the industry kool-aid and believe we don't need no stinkin' unions and government regulation, and that we techies are part of the lucky middle class that will remain. Most of this complacency is caused by the fact that we still have pretty decent salaries compared to most other workers, but of course that is also what makes us a nice big juicy target for dubious practices.

known2• 12 years ago

More at http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/29/1244255/skilled-fore...

danmaz74• 12 years ago

Contracting with labor brokers also benefits US employers. They can staff up swiftly for temporary jobs and slim down just as fast, with workers paid below-market rates.

I really don't understand why H1B visas aren't tied to the worker's pay. Considering that they're intended for difficult to find specialists, it should be easy enough to weed out fake applications by tying the visa to an at least average salary for the sector.

deskamess• 12 years ago

That is one approach... but I would really like the H1 to not to be tied to an employer. Let it be open with instant portability. The only obligation is the current employer (even the original sponsor) has to report the employee assignment on the first date to the DHS. And if a company tries to put bond/restrictions on that movement (either in the US or back in the home country) penalize and remove their ability to get H1's for 5 years.

kabdib3• 12 years ago

At a couple of companies I was at, an Indian jobs shop had somehow gotten their mitts into our HR types and we were indundated with candidates who showed up with books like "Learn Java in 12 hours" or "Windows Device Drivers for N00bs" under their arms. Very junior types, without exception. Our interview questions were fed back, and I had to change them a fair amount. Not a problem.

"The guy at XYZZY will ask about hash tables, so..." and I'd ask them questions about something else, like concurrency, to very obvious consternation. Halfway through an interview, one candidate even asked when I was going to ask about hash tables.

"Fine. We can talk about concurrency and hash tables."

There was an undercurrent of expectation. Their handler / manager (the relationship was never really made clear) called me one day and said "We expect you to give a job to several of our people. You keep changing your questions. What is the problem?" And I would explain that I wasn't going to hire someone junior, who we would have to teach how to do engineering, for a senior wage.

Eventually they stopped coming, presumably having found better pastures.

jerrytsai• 12 years ago

I had a similar experience 7 or 8 years ago, except that I was working for a small company and doing both the recruiting and the interviewing. I would screen a person by phone, and they would pass a basic screen. Then the person would come in and be completely incompetent, openly bringing a basic book in the language that he or she was expected to already know.

After this happened a couple of times I got wise to the strategy. The phone screen was useless. Someone would prompt the person with the right answer. The resume and references also useless, filled with unconfirmable or suspect information.

I gained a little appreciation for what HR professionals have to do and lost a bit of my naivete that people won't try to represent expertise to someone who actually has that expertise.

The language was SAS.

xxcode• 12 years ago

I am not sure if your response is relevant to the article, but I felt that there is some level of superiority complex that you and many fellow humans posses (in this case, about your superior knowledge and intellect).

Perhaps the biggest difference between you and someone applying for the job through the h1b visa program was that they were born in a different set of circumstances than you were. They were likely born in India whereas you were born I the United States. As a result of being born in India, they went to a local school there which didn't teach them about hash tables and concurrency. Your school did, and you had a better education. This person from India is trying to make a better life for himself despite starting at a disadvantage in life(being born in a poor country with access to lesser educational opportunities than you). You are welcome to reject him for the job(you can do so at the resume screening state, especially if they don't have the relevant skills and experience) but I think it would be useful to remember that the other person is a human, likely disadvantaged, and express some human empathy.

driverdan• 12 years ago

Your response has nothing to do with his post. He said he's looking for senior devs and keeps getting sent rookies. It doesn't matter what their background is, they clearly shouldn't be applying for something they can't do.

kabdib3• 12 years ago

I'm perfectly happy interviewing people for junior positions. We did this quite a bit at larger companies where junior engineers were desirable, and there was structure that let them succeed.

But when I'm dealing with a professional organization that is basically trying to scam my company into doing mis-hires, that's when my empathy goes dry. I have a duty to my co-workers and my investors to not screw up hires. I see gaming the system as a legitimate opportunity to criticize someone else's behavior.

I agree, these junior level people are in a tough position. They're being mis-represented and taken advantage of. It sucks. I want people to succeed. But I don't do handouts, and the practices I've seen make me mad.

Everyone in this industry sees many, many resumes from people who cannot do the job. Everyone interviews people who don't pass. Probably everyone has seen people fired because they couldn't perform or were doing damage. This happens. It's not going away. And it's not pleasant.

So while it might not come across in what I wrote above, every time I affect someone's life like this -- every time I send a "Sorry, we're not going to proceed" email, or tell someone in an interview that we're cutting things short today -- I feel bad about it. Sometimes a little bad, sometimes a lot. Sometimes I agonize over a resume (and we spent quite a bit of time on a candidate the other day, trying to come up with reasons to proceed). But the alternatives (job charity? keeping someone on who does negative work?) are worse. Much worse.

And given all the people who should be given a chance, I won't countenance fraud. That makes me write responses that are direct and forceful and unapologetic. These job shops are poisoning the well for the individuals who are truly deserving, and that should make everyone mad.

hemantv4• 12 years ago

Yes there is certain luck bestowed upon you when you are born in US. But you still need to do lots of work to get a good job.

Big multinational don't care about your visa status, several of my friend has been in Zurich (Google), Dubin (Google), London (FB) if they didn't make cut in H1B lottery system after they cleared the interview process.

Don't confuse empathy with competence. Are you looking for charity when you interview with the companies ?

Work hard, raise your competence level and you will have no problem finding a good job in any part of the world.

WalterSear• 12 years ago

"You are welcome to reject him for the job(you can do so at the resume screening state, especially if they don't have the relevant skills and experience) but I think it would be useful to remember that the other person is a human, likely disadvantaged, and express some human empathy."

It is hard to do both when so many of the candidates in question are lying on their resume, lying during the interview, and they are lying to themselves about whether or not they are qualified for the job. Oh, and their recruiter was lying to since before you met them.

You are exhorting greater empathy from one side, while ignoring the entire lack of empathy from the other. Whenever I've seen people do this, it has usually been because they were fostering in-group biases they wouldn't admit to.

geebee• 12 years ago

I admire and support immigrants who wish to better their lives. But if (as you state) the people receiving these work visas aren't especially skilled or educated, why treat them differently from the 1.2+ million immigrants who come freely to the US every year? Why not tell employers who are looking for IT help that they're free to hire anyone currently authorized to work in the US just like every other segment of the economy?

jackhammer• 12 years ago

My first thought was: I can't image how anyone could work for a place like that. That HR person should have been fired on the spot.

My tolerance for bullshit this is quite low and luckily I work for a start-up where I have to take very little of it. When stories like this come up, I keep shaking my head.

kabdib3• 12 years ago

Ironically, one of these companies did a product that was HR software. :-)

aangjie• 12 years ago

Indian here and can confirm some of the agencies do this and is not exactly considered ethically/morally wrong,(am mentioning because some reddit Americans seemed to call it cheating).

In either case, I think this coaching for interview questions is not practical strategy in the long-run. It definitely works in the short-run if you play the numbers game and interview enough number of times.

manishsharan2• 12 years ago

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie. However, the H1B worker is not aware of his rights. The average H1b worker has no one to turn to for help as the people who are most vehemently against H1B have racist and xenophobic agendas. I speak from experience : while on a H1B VISA (and in middle of a unpleasant work situation), I sought help by seeking out the people behind anti-H1B VISA web pages. Not only did those people I asked for help had no assistance for me , they hounded me with hateful racist mails, phone calls and death threats.

The focus of this article and sadly HNers is to punish and prosecute the companies. Not one opinion has been offered to make the lives of H1B better. So let me offer one.

The US consulate can brief the H1B GRANTEE on his /her rights.Maybe include an DVD or training video on youtube along with a hotline or number of labour lawyers. Make the company sponsoring H1B agree to abide by labour laws of California or whichever state the the company is located in.

hemantv4• 12 years ago

I don't fully agree with "Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie"

Remember workers in H1B are suppose to be specialized and cream layer of workers.

Apart from few thousand people (working in Google/FB/Microsoft), others are completely replaceable by american workers, it just that H1B people will put with lot of stuff at lot less pay than there american counterparts, hence contributing to bottom line of these body shopping companies. (TCS/HCL/Wipro) are no different.

A competent person has many options regardless of visa status and nationality.

tristor• 12 years ago

Most people coming on H1B are no less talented /skilled or hardworking that an average american techie.

I would like to disagree on this point, however I have never conducted any long-term research nor seen any conducted. My anecdotal experiences though definitely seem to indicate otherwise.

I think it's first important to clarify that by me making the statement that an H1B is less qualified than the average American tech worker, I am not saying that due to their race. I think that the process is broken and exploitative, and it encourages and incentivizes companies to specifically bring in people who are under-qualified. Let's take two possible scenarios:

A: Shyam excelled at the top of his class while attending school in India and managed to be accepted to receive a government scholarship to attend school overseas. With much glee he heads off to the US on his student visa to get his degree from a university there and get earlier exposure to new ideas and techniques. While there, he does an internship during the summers his sophomore and junior year with a local tech company. As graduation nears, he applies for and receives a green card, choosing to permanently reside in the US. Afterwards he begins his job search, starting with a position he is hired at with the company he interned with his junior year.

B: Deepak did not do so well in school, but knows that he wants to work in the technology field because it's a good way to make money and gain social status so he can date and marry the girls he is interested in. Unfortunately, he didn't meet the requirements for an overseas scholarship, so he attends an Indian university instead. Afterwards, he goes to work for a large Indian technology firm (Infosys, Wipro, et al). During his entire professional experience to this point he and his colleagues have been slogging away doing things mostly incorrectly, but with many hours so that their clients appear to be getting a good deal. After doing this for a number of years, he realizes he's got to get out of India and this situation, so he reaches out internally and gets accepted for a staffed role through his firm. Happily heading overseas to the US he arrives in California with his shiny new H1B working at a big American tech company on behalf of the staffing firm, only to realize that he's been thrust into a position intended for somebody with 5 years of useful experience, not the 3 years of useless experience he's had. He's way under-qualified, and struggles to keep up. He tries but is just not experienced or educated enough to handle the situation well, so finds himself in the exact same slog of burning more hours to do things less efficiently to meet deadlines.

I'm kind of hamming it up here, obviously, but my point is that for the most part there is absolutely no quality control from the perspective of the people who busted their ass, proved themselves, and have succeeded in their careers who are now working alongside people who are under qualified brought in under the guise of a staffing agency hiring H1Bs.

Nobody has a problem working with Shyam from situation A, but they would have a problem working with Deepak from situation B. It's not an issue of xenophobia or race as you seem to make it out to be, and it's not that we don't care or empathize. But we're at work to get our jobs done and we all have goals. If you're an engineer at the top of your game working on some exciting new technology, the last thing you need is to have your project derailed by inefficiencies, bugs, or outright bad actions from someone who is not experienced or qualified enough to be involved, but through the foibles of management found themselves there anyway.

tsycho• 12 years ago

As graduation nears, he applies for and receives a green card, choosing to permanently reside in the US.

While I understand your point, you are painting too rosy a picture for Shyam. Shyam will not get a green card for 6-13 years[1,2], he will also be on a H1B for all those years. And in my anecdotal experience, he faces a lot of the same prejudice/racism/xenophobia indiscriminately as Deepak in your example. This is not at the Google/Facebook (where likely you only see the Shyams), but at the remaining majority of large tech companies.

[1] depending on EB2 vs EB3, decided by whether he got a PhD/Masters or just a Bachelors from the US. [2] due to the country-of-birth based green card quotas

hibikir2• 12 years ago

Your story for Shyam would be wonderful.. I want the immigration system to work like that!

However, it does not. A university graduate that is looking for an entry level position cannot just request a green card! I have been there, actually. As a graduate from a US university, with good grades, wanting to stay in the US. This is how it actually works. Without at the very least a standing offer, a foreigner can't even apply for the green card. The company has to say they can't find a qualified American, prove that the foreigner is qualified have to wait until the green card is handed out before working there. For a recent graduate that would mean an EB-3. Even if you come from Europe, the wait for that is of years. Nobody will hold the job for that long, so that route is impossible.

So this is what a foreigner with an American CS degree has to do. First he gets an F1 visa, and looks for a company that would sponsor him further. He better hope it's a good fit. In that period, he has to keep the company happy, and then get sponsored for an H1-B. Let's remember that H1-B periods are today open for 1 or 2 days a year, thanks to the H1-B mill companies. Then, once we have the H1-B, the company gets to decide if they want to sponsor for permanent residency. This will take years, and cost tens of thousands of dollars. Only after that, we get back to the position where Shyam is in your story.

I am a pretty good example of the real version of Shyam story. I graduated in 2000 from a US university, and went though the immigration maze while working for a variety of US companies. I got my permanent residency in 2011. I did not go through staffing companies, but many people do, because while it provides a way worse service for your employer, it's far, far safer for the employee. If they get hit by a round of layoffs that says 'effective immediately' while getting that green card, they have to go back home, or stay illegally. The staffing company will not lay them off: they will just not pay them while they hand them another position: For all intents and purposes, they become a shell company that keeps their immigration status safe, in exchange for a very big pay cut.

In my case, there was only one close call, when my first employer lost a big contract for their product, and started doing rounds of layoffs, shrinking their workforce in the US by a factor of 10. When I saw what they were doing (and that I did not share the nationality of the company owners), I got another job 2 weeks before my department received their notice.

So If you want more stories of immigrants that come here and compete honestly, and that you'd want to have on your team, wish for better immigration legislation, because the current system actually promotes your scenario B. The immigrants don't like it either.

manishsharan2• 12 years ago

I like your scenarios and I will add to it.

If you are off-shoring or out-sourcing work, you will always get Deepak. But if you are hiring an H1B , you will most likely get Shyam and here is why:

The hiring manager, the one whose project funded the salaries , can easily fire the H1B even more easily. If Deepak shows up when the hiring manager was expecting Shyam, Deepak would get canned in a less than a week.

If you're an engineer at the top of your game working on some exciting new technology, the last thing you need is to have your project derailed by inefficiencies, bugs, or outright bad actions from someone who is not experienced or qualified enough to be involved, ...then why are you not hiring a local engineer or throwing a hissy fit when Shyam shows up and mucks up your code ? Even the worst mangers I have worked with realize that their own job is at risk when they hire a Deepak.

tomohawk• 12 years ago

I have no problem encouraging people who want to be part of our country to immigrate, particularly if they have good skills. This H1B program, though - it's just got to go.

danielweber2• 12 years ago

The link has audio automatically playig.

coldcode• 12 years ago

If we have to have these visa programs, the law should be changed to only allow the actual hiring company to contract with the worker, and under no circumstances allow any intermediary to be a go-between. Then at least there can be some kind of tracking instead of everything being hidden behind closed doors.

Of course with our stupid politicians nothing will change except for the worse.

starving_coder• 12 years ago

The Center for Investigative Reporting did approach me since i am victim of this scam too. I chose to settle out of court sheer out of fear and lack of ideas. As per settlement terms, i am not supposed to talk about this entire episode to anyone ever. But i am still talking here on HN. Back in 2008 I paid $330/hour (10 hours in advance as a retainer) to an attorney to file a response to the legal notice i received. I also paid other damages to my employer totaling $7500. I was literally forced to sign the "binding agreement" which was part of my joining formality after i landed in SF. Had i seen this doc earlier while still in India, chances are i wouldn't have taken that flight. I spent almost a month without pay, medical insurance (in spite of working for the client) but ultimately blinked and signed that document. Its evil. And this ritual is here to stay until the feds really are interested in solving this problem.

known2• 12 years ago

H1B should be included in http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_collar_crimes

Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

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