On Applying to Y Combinator

http://blog.directededge.com/2009/09/30/on-applying-to-y-combinator/

by wheels • 17 years ago

161 71 17 years ago

blog.directededge.com

pg4• 17 years ago

I went back and looked at their applications for w2009 and s2009. They almost made it to interviews in w2009. Several things combined to push them over the threshold next time:

1. I recognized wheels's username as someone who made thoughtful comments on HN.

2. Their description of what they were doing was much more specific.

3. We added the video in s2009, and we could tell from their video that they were good.

toisanji• 17 years ago

Are there any publicly viewable videos from companies that made it into yc? I want to see what constitutes a good video.

pg4• 17 years ago

Not that I know of, but you could ask Scott and maybe they'd post theirs. (Actually it's still up, so all he'd have to do is make the page public.)

eswat• 17 years ago

Here's one from Divvyshot (I assume it was sent with their application): http://vimeo.com/2044353

jacquesm4• 17 years ago

Hm. I don't know if that will help at all. I figure the best way to make those videos is to do what you yourself would do, and to be as natural as possible.

If you don't do that then all that will happen is that YC will receive a bunch of cookie-cutter videos, and that's exactly what you do not want.

You want your video to present you in a way that matches you, not to present you in a way that matched someone else.

wheels• 17 years ago

Here's ours - as is pretty obvious, it was super informal and just us yacking at the camera. As noted in the (just updated) text there -- this is from 7 months ago, so doesn't correspond to our current plans in many ways, but gives you an idea for the sort of video that it was.

http://scott-oviwe.posterous.com/private/wIYDQvTIRI

hristov2• 17 years ago

Great, now I have to worry about making thoughtful comments on here.

dualogy• 17 years ago

Um... Try again :D

yumraj• 17 years ago

All I'll say is don't try too hard to make "thoughtful comments", and just be yourself. Sometimes the best insights and comments are what you make instinctively.

diN0bot• 17 years ago

you know, sometimes i wonder if my votes are being aggregated, too....it seems unlikely, but everysooften i feel the urge to look over my shoulder... (ok i admit it! i voted up hristov for being candid and having good intentions.)

TrevorJ2• 17 years ago

These are helpful insights. To the video point, as a film/video professional I'm keenly aware of the differences in the sort of information you can gather from a moving image versus text.

I'd be interested to ask you how much the addition of video closed the gap between your initial perceptions of a team based on the application versus when you met them in person.

lbrandy• 17 years ago

> Paul later told me that the big difference was that he recognized me from Hacker News and that I said smart things there. So if that was the critical difference, the question is, “Why was I saying smart things?”

Another question might be, "How would you have faired had you been a mere lurker on HN?"

MicahWedemeyer2• 17 years ago

Beware the temptation to post on HN in order to look smart for your YC application. Better to spend time working on your company and save your HN comments for when you actually have something to say.

jwhitlark2• 17 years ago

Beware the temptation to do anything just to look smart for your YC application, (or life). As beneficial as I think YC is, it's not magic pixie dust, and you're in just as bad of shape if you get in on false pretenses.

The reason why some people succeed, even when everyone tells them they're wrong, is they do something they believe in. Everything else is secondary.

jacquesm4• 17 years ago

HN is a great place to learn, there are tons and tons of people here that are a lot smarter than me and some debate helps to enlighten my sometimes dark and isolated viewpoints.

I'm living in a fairly out of the way location as far as the IT world is concerned, HN is pretty much the only contact I have with fellow hackers working on a myriad of interesting stuff.

There hasn't been an ask HN post that I put out that didn't come back with several insightful options, the sum of which was larger than the experience of any one live person that I know.

It's a fantastic resource, and a place where you can make friends that are hackers too.

That it's a factor in getting your YC application judged can safely be ignored, the very few edge cases where that's applicable do not make it worth the effort for those that might be inclined to try to game the system by flooding hn with 'insightful' comments.

In fact it's probably statistically pretty easy to puncture that balloon.

jasonlbaptiste• 17 years ago

Post here because you enjoy it and love the community. Odds are if you come here to just "look smart" or increase your odds at getting into YC you will be sorely disappointed.

jeromec2• 17 years ago

I think a good rule of thumb is to do what feels natural rather than forced. For example, I comment on HN just as I've always done on TechCrunch. My team plans to submit an application because it seems a natural step for us. In fact, we feel our project fills a natural need, and would be going full steam ahead with or without YC.

jlgosse• 17 years ago

Excellent post. As someone who is going to apply to YC this coming winter, this article contains some extremely valuable information.

What I get from it mostly though, is that getting accepted is less about the application, and more about getting out there and getting things done.

Essentially, I can see a number of common points between both wheels' post and pg's comment:

1. It's a great idea to have something started. Once you have something started, pitching your idea and refining your pitch will surely help you out when explaining what problem you're trying to solve.

2. Contributing to HN often will help build your reputation. Nothing can help grow your reputation online like writing does. I've been told time and time again that I am an excellent writer, and that people respect me for it. If you can write well, contribute to HN.

3. Sharing your product with other people on HN is a great way to get feedback. The more feedback you receive, the greater ability you have to improve your product and eventually succeed.

4. The new(er) feature that allows you to post a video of you and your co-founders may actually be invaluable to getting accepted into the program. I would agree with this in that it's hard to judge a person's qualities from their writing alone. A video will give you a deeper look at their personality, and maybe a glimpse of whether or not they could handle a program such as YC.

With point four in mind, I was wondering if anyone has any advice on a little problem I am having. The problem is derived from the fact that my single co-founder is currently in NYC for the next few months. What would be the best way to create a video for our application, if we are both in different countries?

Thanks,

jlgosse

thaumaturgy2• 17 years ago

Yikes. I think your best bet would be to individually shoot some video and splice it together -- even though the app specifically discourages that sort of thing, it would probably be better than no video at all. That is, assuming the two of you can't somehow get together for a day or two.

rdouble• 17 years ago

individually shoot some video and splice it together

I did this because my co-founder was on tour in the Cayman Islands when we decided to apply for funding. I do not like being on camera, so we were not going to submit a video at all. Pg emailed us and suggested we complete the video. We got an interview, but were not accepted, for reasons which have proven to be painfully prescient.

jlees• 17 years ago

Or just do a video with one of you. That's what we did, and like rdouble, got interviewed but not accepted.

arfrank• 17 years ago

I would think what would be better would be to video conference and record that. It would include both of you and practically be the same as if you were just sitting next to each other minus the actual physical proximity.

jmintz2• 17 years ago

When we filmed our video, Dave and I were in Chicago but Andy was in California. We got Andy on video chat (Google Talk) and then subtitled what he said (since the microphone didn't pick it up well). Not sure if anyone else did this... :)

juvenn2• 17 years ago

Thanks for your clarity writing.

joez• 17 years ago

Hey wheels, would you mind posting up your first YC application? I ask because I'd love to get something to contrast against dhouston's (Dropbox) amazing application. I think it would be really interesting if you had as good of an application and got rejected. This could be a good dose of reality for people looking to apply (myself included).

thaumaturgy2• 17 years ago

I'd love to see their video too.

physcab2• 17 years ago

I feel like anyone working in a startup needs to type out the phrase "You don't know shit" and tape it to their monitor.

Then get back to work.

yan• 17 years ago

That's not very inspiring

physcab2• 17 years ago

What I meant is that you need to have the belief that you're never at your goal. You are constantly critiquing yourself and producing good work.

"You don't know shit" is a constant reminder that you need to try harder--that you haven't figured everything out. You need to live in a state of paranoia that others are just about to release something greater.

lsc5• 17 years ago

Really, it depends on your personality, and your ego.

See, some people are irritated or shocked by my self-deprecation. The thing is, I would be absolutely insufferable if I let my ego out. I do it every now and then, you know. Most startups are populated by people who have egos that can rival mine, in part because having an ego that large makes you think you can do it better than everyone else, and in part because investors tend to prefer confident people. (I personally think investors are morons in this regard, but what do I know? Managers seem to agree with them. I have seen my more capable but less confident peers get passed over for me or someone like me more times than I can count.)

For me, Yeah, I constantly need to remind myself I don't know everything, or else I end up doing something really stupid. You know I once got into a mailing list argument with Lee Felsenstein about how to run a computer club? Yeah, I looked pretty stupid. See, that's the sort of thing that happens if I don't keep my ego in check.

I know many people who are more capable than I am in every respect who don't have that massive ego. Yeah, for one of those people (who I think would be excellent founders, some of them.) 'you don't know shit' would be a bad thing to remind them. Yes, for them, you'd probably want something positive and encouraging. But for someone like me? "You don't know shit" is quite appropriate.

CatBaby• 17 years ago

Are you sure? I don't know if this applies in the world of startups, but in the broad world of "business", having a pigheaded belief in your own talent is almost necessary.

I don't see why it wouldn't be an asset for a startup founder to be brimming with confidence in his own product.

daleharvey2• 17 years ago

because most startups dont know anything, they have an idea that was shaped from their experience and assumptions about how the market will react to it.

Once you appreciate that these things arent much more than educated guesses, you can be a lot more focussed actually determining how people react to your product, as opposed to going off and coding what noone wants.

zaidf• 17 years ago

Agree. And if you want to get specific about that quote as it relates to product dev, read up Eric Reis/Steve Blank.

I actually feel relieved since I have come to the realization that your dies are not inherently supposed to work. They are mere hypothesis until proven by the market. It is true for every entrepreneur--no matter how successful.

rokhayakebe• 17 years ago

Why YC couldn't let startups apply yearlong instead of only twice per year?

markbao2• 17 years ago

Well, the entire YC program is structured around the two three-month events of the year. YC isn't just a "congrats, you got accepted to one of the most prestigious seed groups ever—here's a bunch of cash at an insulting valuation" but it's also about the mentoring and demo days, which I would argue are worth more than the "live-on" money.

Regular seed funding groups can work that way, sure. But they're for different purposes.

lsc5• 17 years ago

Insulting, really? so you have 3 guys, and a business plan. you get $20K for say, 6% of the company. Are you really saying a $300K valuation on a company that is 'just an idea' is insulting? Personally, I'd call that high.

But yeah, you are right. it's not about the money. It would probably make economic sense for me to give 6% of my company to pg, even without getting any cash, just for the marketing effects.

jacquesm4• 17 years ago

I'm of two minds about the amount and percentage.

On the one hand it's seed stage, the very large majority of seed investments turns out to be wasted money, so there is a premium to be expected.

On the other hand $20K means that the startup will be looking for money again in the very near future, and getting follow up investments is a very time consuming job.

Then there is the fact that YC makes a bunch of very invasive requirements of the 'founders', they have to basically give up their life and family for this chance to be a player. That's a decision everybody makes for themselves of course, but you have to balance what YC can give you (a one time shot at the jackpot) to what you've already got.

I think this is why YC skews to younger people, the price to pay for a chance like this is a lot smaller when you're younger.

Also, older people tend to be unimpressed by $20K, especially if it is for multiple founders.

juvenn2• 17 years ago

I will read the bits again, and again.

yosho• 17 years ago

It seems from the post that the primary reason you got into YC the second time around was because Paul recognized your username. Obviously there were other reasons involved, which PG has stated above. However, the overall feel is that getting into YC has a lot to do with PG's initial impression of who you are and how active you are on hacker news than the actual idea itself, considering that you said the idea remained unchanged, it was just the pitch that was different.

Basically, I feel like I have to contribute something worthy on this site now in order to be considered for YC. While I feel that being an active community member is important, I don't think it should be given the weight that it seems to carry for YC applications.

drusenko• 17 years ago

You don't. Consider this: In W07, there were ~12 teams accepted IIRC. We didn't have videos or HN.

There are now > 20 teams selected. Without being active on HN, you still have the same chance as before, but those that are posting intelligently to HN are getting a boost.

jwhitlark2• 17 years ago

From what I can infer, PG is much more interested in the person/team than the idea; the implementation is the hard part. Given that PG has implied in the past that Hacker News was written to help YC, this doesn't seem an unreasonable approach since they're honest about the matter.

MicahWedemeyer2• 17 years ago

Do not do this. I tried this route and still got rejected. All it resulted in was me wasting time trying to find articles to submit and/or comment on. Better to just work on your idea and assume you'll get rejected either way.

Absolutely do not waste time in order to support your YC application. Work on your startup instead.

TrevorJ2• 17 years ago

I think in a microcosm, 'username' is just shorthand for how active and aware you are in the startup community as a whole. It's the same as everything else, if other people in the industry remember you, whether from a mixer you attended, or an article you published or what have you, you are much more likely to have an 'in' with them. Is it a means to an end? No, but it is a useful and helpful artifact of being interested and active in the field you want to go into.

edw519• 17 years ago

Basically, I feel like I have to...

Geez, I can't imagine a worse way for an aspiring achiever start any sentence. Get one thing straight: you don't have to do anything. The prizes (whatever they are) go to those with positive mental attitude and fierce determination. I imagine that for yc, like most other things worth doing, that's half the battle.

FWIW, this may be the best community on the internet for passionate hackers. If you feel like you have to contribute, please don't. If, OTOH, you want to be a part of something that can help you (and others) in ways you can't even imagine right now, welcome aboard.

pg4• 17 years ago

That's not true. Decisions about who to interview depend on three equal votes-- mine, Robert's, and Trevor's-- and Robert and Trevor don't read HN enough to know who's who. At best, making thoughtful comments on HN will give you an edge in borderline cases.

The best thing you can do is what Scott said to do in the application: get to work. Then you'll sound in your application like you know what you're talking about, because you will.

jmintz2• 17 years ago

None of the founders of Bump had a Hacker News account before applying. When YC started, I didn't get the feeling that people knew each other from HN. The last class had >50 founders, only a few of which I see post on HN.

lsc5• 17 years ago

If you run a startup, even a 'exchange goods and services with customers' lifestyle company like I have that ignores investors completely, you will need to market yourself. If your customers are other startups, news.ycombinator.com is an excellent place to market yourself.

Yes, writing about your activities is marketing yourself. Until you become much bigger than I am, a 'personal relationship' with your customers is a huge part of marketing.

Hah. I was going to link to some old twitter threads, but it seems 'older tweets are not available'... I search for my company name on twitter quite a lot, and help people who are complaining. I'm remembering a particularly amusing moment when one of my Chinese customers was complaining (in Chinese) of a down VPS. I used the google translate tool to figure out what they were complaining about, then I helped them with the problem. The customer was rather shocked that I was able to puzzle out the problem from the Chinese description.

One of the keys to marketing, though, is to not spend too much time on any one prospect until you know they are interested. It sounds like you feel the need to put a lot of effort into marketing yourself to PG before he has shown much interest. In the example above, because the conversation was on twitter, I was not only helping one customer, I was telling the world that I'm the sort of guy who is willing and able to help out my customers.

If your customers are on news.ycombinator.com (or if you are primarily marketing your startup to investors rather than to customers, which I personally think is bad) then yeah, put effort into building your image here. Otherwise, it probably is not worth the effort, unless you really enjoy it.

Uh, that's the other thing. Yeah, you could say that we are all building images of ourselves. But you know? people are pretty good at sniffing out fakes. If you want your image to feel genuine, you need it to be genuine.

chrischen5• 17 years ago

I think they make a great point on not starting a startup for the sake of Y Combinator.

To be honest I almost fell into that pitfall. But from my perspective it's also hard to not focus on the application so much. Because I'm a college student, I haven't had a job, I don't have much money, and I'll be forced to balance school with the project if I don't get into something like Y Combinator.

So putting effort into the application now can mean more time to focus on the product later if I'm accepted. So while Y Combinator can be an accelerator, I think it can also be a great initiator too in that it can give someone like me the first opportunity in my life to work full time on a passionate project without any other priorities.

jnovek• 17 years ago

In my opinion, if you aren't ready to balance school/work and your startup until your startup is self-sufficient, you aren't serious enough about your startup.

chrischen5• 17 years ago

It's not that I'm not ready. It's the fact that I even have to balance it.

Also the startup is much more interesting. School is just an unnecessary impedance to the startup and if I am serious about it I wouldn't even care about school (which I don't). The problem is my parent's aren't going to pay for me to relocate to silicon valley or fund a risky project. They'd rather fund college.

So my options are to find a way to fund myself so I have a legitimate reason to focus full time on the startup, or balance school and startup. The problem is I have a hard time enforcing a balance and the startup gets more of the attention.

So ideally I want to be in a position where I need no balance and focus solely on the startup.

lsc5• 17 years ago

I agree. I'm only now 'ramen profitable' (well, I'm 'opportunity cost profitable' if you don't count what I spend on expansion, and I'm growing by around 20% a month.) I only went full time a few months ago. (well, actually this is the second time I've gone full-time)

Looking back, I'd have needed something north of $200K to get where I am now, to learn what I learned. Hardware mistakes get expensive fast, and I was at this for 3 years before it took off.

Who is going to keep feeding me cash after my second failure? my third? Me, that's who. Who is going to support two people to write a book that is likely never going to repay the expense of keeping us alive for the period of time it took to write it, much less to cover the opportunity costs? I did.

The thing is, if I went with investors, I would have needed to take the 'pretend you are doing something new' path, and to charge what look to me like ridiculous prices. Now, maybe they'd also bring on marketing people that would make those ridiculous prices tenable, but going with investors, I'd have probably been either dead or bought out by now.

csallen• 17 years ago

So putting effort into the application now can mean more time to focus on the product later if I'm accepted.

True, but remember you're riding on the "if I'm accepted" part. It's highly unlikely that you will be, especially if your application lacks the knowledge you're likely to gain during the process of developing your product. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense for you to apply. Just keep in mind that every second you spend doing A is time that you could have spent doing B.

While I won't say I hated college, I was eager to get out and start my own company from day one. I seriously considered it a few times, but I'm glad I didn't go through with it. College has a lot of resources that are harder to come by on the outside. (I just graduated a few months ago, so it could be that I'm wrong and the resources are just as easy to tap into, but I haven't figured it out yet.)

Take advantage of the fact that other people are taking care of your finances, and spend your time improving yourself. Take advantage of the fact that you're surrounded by students who are quite possibly as ambitious as you, and make some connections with promising people. It could pay off in the future. I really recommend working on small projects during college, instead of trying to create an actual startup.

Sure you probably won't make money from doing this, but there are other benefits. Small projects don't have to be time-intensive, so you can still pass your classes and enjoy college life. They also provide a really good excuse for you to sit down and work alongside one of those promising classmates I mentioned earlier. Plus, taking a project from the initial phases through completion is bound to be a great learning experience. The phrase "learning experience" is a bit cliche and overused, but trust me, this is truly a field where learning pays off.

Also, consider the fact that all these talented people starting companies are really just out to make money. This limits their choices, consequently creating a large space out there for apps that aren't designed to make money. If you do a good enough job on the right project, you stand to gain a lot of attention, respect, experience, and opportunities.

chrischen5• 17 years ago

I've been doing small projects before I was in high school. Frankly I feel college classes (at my college at least) are a waste of time and I don't want to be held back anymore. I don't care much about college life either. I'm not interested in the same things other people my age.

I have taken a project from initial phases through completion... when I was in high school. I even got a law firm to do the legal stuff pro Bono.

I'm not riding on being accepted to work on this. I'm just saying it would be a really good if I do get accepted. It would make it a lot easier for me. I still plan on working on it if I'm not accepted, just as I have done for countless previous projects from before I knew what a startup was.

I'm not getting much in return for the almost 20000 per year I spend on college (and I'm just not built to be told what to learn) and to be able to not only stop paying 20000 per year in pursuit of a degree to get a job I won't want (I will be self employed; no way I will be able to work for someone for more than a summer), but to be paid almost 20000 to do that, that sir is as ideal as it can get.

That is why it's a no-brainer for me to apply.

maxer• 17 years ago

i can see where he is coming from with this statement. I recently got knocked back from a goverment backed startup program here in ireland which i had my heart set on from i first heard about the programme at the start of this year.

I had two ideas i was looking to develop and i went with the one i thought had the most potential and the one i was most interested in, even disscussed it with the people who had to goverment tender to manage the program.

They where looking for great things such as exportable and high potential amongst other things. My idea really did tick all the boxes but as i filled out the application form, it was a far way from what they where looking for and for that i didnt make the interview stages.

But now im at the stage where i can demo one of the ideas at a local barcamp next week and im quite happy to move on a prove some people wrong who didn t believe my idea ticked certain boxes.

And yes i will be applying for ycombinator with my other idea which i have deemed more YC-esque

leif• 17 years ago

Europe and I miss you, Scott. :-)

mahmud• 17 years ago

I think Germany is better off with one less Texan.

:-D

tlb• 17 years ago

The single most important thing that you can do to increase your chances of getting into Y-Combinator is to do what you should be doing anyway: going full-speed ahead on your startup

Exactly. We're impressed by teams that get things done, and unimpressed by teams haven't even started to build something. I've often found myself thinking, "If you think this is so great an idea, why haven't you spent some weekends building a version 0 prototype?"

isamuel• 17 years ago

It's ironic but probably inevitable that the central advice of this article (basically: "work like crazy on your startup, stop obsesssing on the app") has been greeted with cries to see their first app, second app, video accompanying the app...

matthodan• 17 years ago

Great article-- When will we see a Myers-Briggs assessment on the application?

Our video will probably have the following flow:

* 5 seconds to introduce our co-founders

* 10 seconds on what we're going to create

* 10 seconds on how our product solves a major problem

* 10 seconds on why we're the right team for the job

* 10 seconds to demo our prototype

* 10 seconds on why we would be a good candidate for YC

* 5 seconds of witty banter mixed throughout just because

Thoughts?

On Applying to Y Combinator

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