Mozilla Stumbler 1.0

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.mozstumbler

by crankycoder1975 • 12 years ago

208 143 12 years ago

play.google.com

crankycoder19758• 12 years ago

Hi all!

We cut a 1.0 release of the Mozilla Stumbler finally.

Have at it. File the bugs. Complain about battery life.

Help us make this thing not suck and build out a proper open location service.

yzzxy• 12 years ago

Any plans to gamify/add user incentives for "Stumbling?"

ThePinion• 12 years ago

This would be an interesting addition. I realized that Google is showing off Ingress as a game, but most technical users know it's about data-mining for maps and other location based products. Mozilla is openly showing this off as something that is about gathering data.

hackuser5• 12 years ago

Congratulations; I hope this gives us a safe, effective, open location service.

The privacy policy[1] could be clarified for less technical readers, and even for others. I infer that collected data is anonymous because you write,

1) We receive publicly observable data about WiFi access points and cell towers around you, your estimated latitude and longitude, and the date -- Not associated with anything else, that may be anonymous data -- though you could guess my home network or home location by the most common/strongest wifi signals. If you track data by submitter, you also would have a good idea of their travels.

2) we may receive certain temporary data such as your IP address. This data is deleted after being used as follows ... -- You seem to be implying that you do receive non-anonymous data, and delete it after innocuous uses.

3) You can send us data anonymously or under a nickname -- Which implies anonymity is possible.

If what I infer is correct, why not restate it directly and unequivocally with something like the following:

Unless you choose otherwise, the data you send will be anonymous and not associated with you in any way. We will not record who you are or what phone sent the data. We do receive some non-anonymous data, but we delete it within X hours/days after using it as follows ...

And add more detail after that.

[1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/privacy

EDIT: Clarify a bit, and a correction to #1

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

Good questions! The stumbler reports Wi-Fi and cell tower locations and an optional nickname. The location data is stored anonymously. The nickname and just the number of reported networks is stored separately, solely for display on the leaderboard [1] or other gamification in the future.

The IP addresses are just a fact of life of web server logging. They are not stored in the location or leaderboard databases.

[1] https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders

justcommenting22• 12 years ago

"fact of life of web server logging" = screw you, we're not even going to consider deleting our logs even as we talk a good line about how much we respect your privacy

edit after downvote: also, mozilla engineering PMs will intimate on hackernews that it won't internally correlate and potentially sell any of the location and other information it most obviously could correlate about people, even though it has already announced its intention to advertise.

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

btw, the Mozilla location database is currently used to power geolocation on the well-publicized Firefox OS "$25 smartphone"! That device does not have GPS hardware so all geolocation requires rely on Mozilla's location service and GeoIP.

therealunreal• 12 years ago

I used to use it a lot a few months back "mapping" my town and I had noticed that it would go at full strength even when I was staying in the same place for hours. Would it be possible to gradually slow down the collections when it detects that the user isn't moving?

zz19• 12 years ago

There used to be a mode to geo-fence data collection, i.e. harvest only outside of a certain area, but I don't see it anymore.

mike-cardwell2• 12 years ago

Google provides an opt-out. They will ignore your AP if you append "_nomap" to the end of your SSID.

Does Stumbler also support this? If not, why not?

Ref: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en

edit: Found the answer to my own question. Yes, they do support "nomap": https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/149

paulojreis10• 12 years ago

Is this really a thing? WTF?

I feel very ashamed, as someone who works in IT, everytime this happens. I mean, people can opt-out, of course - but, in order to do that, they need to know what an SSID is, and how to change it. What about people who don't? Will we just assume that they don't care or that their opinion doesn't matter?

raesene4• 12 years ago

Cool stuff, always interesting to see a new entrant to the location services field, especially an open one.

One question though. Will ordinary users be able to directly query the database via the API? i.e. if you want to geolocate a set of Access points and you have their MAC addresses will this service provide a direct supported API for retrieving their location?

The documentation on the API page implies that this isn't really a supported application?

Specifically

"If you are developing a native application or library for a desktop operating system or Android, you can in principle use this service via its HTTPS API. Please refer to the development documentation for the details. On most other operating systems, you cannot access the required cell and WiFi network information required to call the service API. "

and

"At this stage the service is open to anyone, who wants to contribute back to the service and applications supporting the Mozilla mission. "

seem a bit vague.

towelguy• 12 years ago

I see there is a leaderboard, so users have a nick, but can we contribute anonymously without signing up?

Also, why do you need access to my photos?

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

Yes, anonymous is the default mode. :) The nickname is optional and only used to record a leaderboard "points". The nickname is not tied to any reported Wi-Fi or location data.

Mozilla Stumbler does not need to access your photos; it just needs to read/write to your sdcard (to cache map tile graphics and export KML data). "Access your photots" is Google's unfortunate explanation of accessing the sdcard.

chdir2• 12 years ago

Could someone explain the privacy implications of mapping Wifi networks to GPS co-ordinates. Is it an opt-out thing?

hackuser5• 12 years ago

See my post below for some answers; I was writing as you posted yours ...

chdir2• 12 years ago

Thanks. As a follow-up, there are existing services that already have this database. So why build another one? Is it because the existing ones aren't open source?

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

A stumbler user's identity or location could be revealed by tracing routes from published GPS data or maps. In areas without much stumbler data coverage, you can see clear routes along highways and some residential streets.

Owners of Wi-Fi access points, including mobile phones with sharing Wi-Fi, may not want their unique BSSID/MAC address and location published. This is not exactly comparable to the Google Wi-Fi case in Germany. In addition to recording BSSID/MAC addresses, Google was (inadvertently?) logging Wi-Fi payload data that included cleartext user data.

btw, here's a zoomable map of the Mozilla Location Service's data coverage. Please help fill in the blanks! :)

https://location.services.mozilla.com/map

hippiehippo• 12 years ago

About that map, a feature I would like is to fade spots which were scanned long time ago because WiFi access points might not last as long as cell towers. This way, as a contributor, I know in which areas to scan and, as a regular user, I know that the data for a specific area might be too old.

zyx321• 12 years ago

Well, Google's problem was that they chose an easily implemented solution - capture everything that looks even remotely like wifi and then physically ship the HDDs to Mt.View for analysis. It just so happens that the easy solution is sometimes blatantly illegal for incredibly obvious reasons.

Stumbler seems to anonymize the data on your device before sending it, which is the way it should be done. There is no reason to transmit any sort of wifi data except the AP's MAC address.

thristian• 12 years ago

No Firefox OS port?

Clochix• 12 years ago

I made a Firefox OS port: https://github.com/clochix/FxStumbler But it was my first Firefox OS app, the code is awful and it would need a complete rewrite. Nevertheless, if you have a FxOS device, don't hesitate to try this port and give me some feedback.

ChrisGranger• 12 years ago

Will this work with WiFi-only tablets? I'd like to contribute but my Kobo Arc device is marked incompatible. I saw in the screenshot on Google Play that there is a WiFi-only report symbol.

icebraining• 12 years ago

It works on my WiFi-only Nexus 7.

zz19• 12 years ago

I have a LTE Nexus 7, with no SIM, so it is basically a WiFi only, and yes, it works. I couldn't install it from F-Droid and I had to use an apk from github, but it worked like a charm and it auto-updates.

crankycoder19758• 12 years ago

YES.

We caught that bug just before release. :)

https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/issues/1137

tonylemesmer2• 12 years ago

As an Android user, is it possible to modify my phone to use this service instead of Google's? Is it possible to upload the database directly to a phone or replace an APK to achieve this?

ganomi• 12 years ago

The NOGAPPS project lists Mozilla Location Service support as an upcoming feature (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1715375).

tonylemesmer2• 12 years ago

Great! And although that post was made June 2012 I note it has been maintained and has recent updates.

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

You can test the Mozilla Location Service with Firefox on your desktop by changing your "geo.wifi.uri" about:config pref to:

  https://location.services.mozilla.com/v1/geolocate?key=test

Then try using a geolocation service like Google Maps or http://html5demos.com/geo . If it can't find your location, check Mozilla's zoomable coverage map to see if your neighborhood is covered: https://location.services.mozilla.com/map . If not, please consider installing Mozilla Stumbler to help map it. :)

lgierth2• 12 years ago

Will 1.0 be available on the F-Droid store, like earlier versions?

zz19• 12 years ago

You can already auto-update from within MozStumbler itself.

privong• 12 years ago

Apparently not from the current latest (0.30.0) version on f-droid. I just went through the MozStumbler menus and did not see anything about (auto-)updating.

pserwylo2• 12 years ago

I believe so. crankycoder1975 was asking for some pointers on #fdroid irc a few hours back to help build 1.0 for F-Droid. Hopefully any issues will get ironed out. While I appreciate my siblings comment about the app auto-updating - I'd rather have apps managed by a central area (F-Droid on Android, package managers on desktop Linux).

crankycoder19758• 12 years ago

I'm going to try getting an F-Droid build out today, but we've got some build issues with the fdroidserver. In any case - it will get to F-Droid real-soon-now.

lgierth2• 12 years ago

Cool, very good to hear!

Aissen3• 12 years ago

Is the wifi AP database downloadable somewhere (OSM/Wikipedia style) or is it "cloudlocked" (we can only query it through the API) ?

zz19• 12 years ago

https://location.services.mozilla.com/downloads

Aissen3• 12 years ago

wifi AP database

You linked to the download page where there's only the Cell Networks database.

pornel• 12 years ago

I can't find the post, but I remember reading that they'd rather not expose full raw data because of privacy concerns — there could be a way to mine this data to de-anonymize users.

I'd love to play with the raw data too, but I understand their concern. So far many "anonymous" large data dumps ended up exposing too much (e.g. recently NY taxi data).

Aissen3• 12 years ago

Oh I know this might be very sensitive privacy-wise. People should just be aware if they're contributing to a proprietary database (like Google Maps) or an open one (like OSM) when using Mozilla Stumbler.

prima-facie• 12 years ago

This is a lot like the Wigle wardrive app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.wigle.wigl...

ZirconCode• 12 years ago

Wardriving is also the first thing I thought off (Wigle also being my app of choice). Massive co-ordinated wardriving. I can't help but feel that this is a bad idea.

Icybee• 12 years ago

This seems similar to what Google did to receive massive fines a few years back.

pserwylo2• 12 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, bug I believe the issue with Googles wifi collection was because they had code which intentionally read (and stored?) all data being transmitted over open wifi networks.

mdellabitta• 12 years ago

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/12/google-street-view-settle...

_almosnow2• 12 years ago

It's the same thing, but Mozilla is cool and everything they do is good :), while Google is evil <:[

Remember that public opinion is an extremely mutable thing [1].

[1] Henrik Ibsen

_almosnow2• 12 years ago

...

At least state why you feel that my opinion is not valuable.

millzlane• 12 years ago

Will this still collect hidden SSID's?

st3fan• 12 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure hidden SSID's do not broadcast their network name and thus will not be found by a scanner.

hackuser5• 12 years ago

Networks with hidden SSIDs can be detected many other ways. A little searching quickly will turn up methods.

hannosch5• 12 years ago

It won't, see code here -> https://github.com/mozilla/MozStumbler/blob/dev/android/src/...

The first check is "if we don't get a SSID, we don't collect". That's what happens with hidden networks.

bajsejohannes2• 12 years ago

I've been waiting for something like this. Most other location services I know about also crowd source data (after initially seeding it), but don't give the data back to the user.

Kudos for giving back what people gave you.

towolf• 12 years ago

Any info about how multiple fixes are integrated to approximate the true location of a fix?

I remember reading how Wigle Wardriving calculated fixes and the method seemed unsophisticated and lame.

For example, if I bike down a street then fixes would be detected 100m ahead of me and always pinned to the road at my current location.

If I bike down the road in the other direction the next time, will be fix become more accurate?

Normally higher SNR fixes should have more weight than weak fixes. Do they?

cpeterso10• 12 years ago

The server code is on GitHub, but I don't know offhand where the offline geolocation scripts are. The Stumbler app's map will show your phone's GPS position (blue dots) and Mozilla Location Service's estimate (red dots) so you can compare the difference.

https://github.com/mozilla/ichnaea

We store signal strength for possible future use, but our current location algorithms don't use it. Wireless signal strength is notoriously flaky. From some reports I've read, signal strength is more highly correlated with the user's orientation (i.e. is their body blocking the signal to the source) than with distance to the source.

diaz• 12 years ago

Tried this all of today and I don't think it is working on my Jolla phone.

Mozilla Stumbler 1.0

Related Stories