Become Estonia’s e-resident

http://e-estonia.com/e-residents/become-e-resident/

by jkaljundi • 12 years ago

447 122 12 years ago

e-estonia.com

xmpir• 12 years ago

What exactly can one do with this digital identity?

turnip1979• 12 years ago

http://e-estonia.com/e-residents/e-residency/

Flavius• 12 years ago

"get secure access to world-leading digital services" - Which basically means... absolutely nothing?

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Some background information here: http://e-estonia.com/taavi-kotka-promises-10-million-e-eston...

Although the first stages will be more towards foreigners who conduct any business in Estonia, the next stages should allow appearance of new business models and internationally operated activities headquartered and registered in Estonia.

toomuchtodo• 12 years ago

The Delaware of the world.

_delirium• 12 years ago

It's an ID/credential system that government and financial services will be using. So you'll be able to use the ID/credentials to log in and interact with Estonian entities that use it, like banks, tax authority, corporate registry, etc. Vaguely like an OpenID identity, but run by the Estonian government, and with two-factor authentication.

It doesn't in itself give you any specific rights, as far as I can tell ("e-residency" is a bit of a marketing term). It just makes it easier to do things that foreigners are theoretically allowed to do, but which aren't currently very easy to do remotely. For example it's already legal for a foreigner to register a company in Estonia, but it's a bit of a hassle if you aren't an Estonian resident; this is supposed to make it easier, because you'll be electronically "in the system" with a proper ID number and login, making it easier for agencies and financial institutions to know how to deal with you. Especially since it's combined with a move towards self-service online portals for government services, so you should be able to log in with this ID and do a lot of things over the internet, instead of visiting civil-service offices.

Here (Denmark) all that is also theoretically true—anyone with legitimate business in Denmark can get an ID, and once you have one you can do things like register a company entirely online, self-service, as well as interact with banks and anyone else who implements the "NemID". But in practice the authorities are very suspicious of anyone not living in Denmark trying to get into the system, so almost the only non-residents who do so are Swedes and Germans who either commute cross-border or have frequent business in Denmark.

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Actually many private entities use it as well. It's an authentication layer anyone can easily implement. Same for digital signatures.

tvanantwerp• 12 years ago

"To apply for one, you need to make visit a Police and Border Guard office in Estonia – there you need to submit an application and provide biometrical data (your facial image and fingerprints) for background check."

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

How this is supposed to work in the future - hopefully soon - is for you to be able to authenticate yourself in any friendly embassy or consulate. The first issuance must be with a strong proof of identity.

spindritf• 12 years ago

"We are working to add capacity to our embassies to process e-residency applications and issue cards abroad by the end of 2015 – so that you would not necessarily need to travel to Estonia to join us as an e-resident."

From the leaflet [PDF] http://e-estonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Become-Eston...

anemic• 12 years ago

are the facial image and fingerprints only used for background check, are they stored (and for how long) and are they shared with different entities, such as police or foreign governments?

daveloyall4• 12 years ago

Background check?

Wouldn't this kind of ID be granted to anyone, so long as they are who they say they are, so long as their identity is vetted.

I think selectively doling out benefits or rights is the job of a separate system. (And if everyone has one of these IDs, the design of the second system could be simpler than it might be otherwise. I think.)

irve• 12 years ago

they store it in citizen database. as of now they do not share the fingerprints with our regular police. the face they probably get.

I think that our local spy people have access to them (there was a theory about them managing our offshore database backups and therefore never asking for anything); if and how they share it is not disclosed.

foreign governments might get access through travel information agreements (biometric passports were a requirement for free travel to US) but I am not certain about those details.

huhtenberg2• 12 years ago

You should assume they will be stored and shared with friendly nations, even if the official line says they aren't.

ikawe2• 12 years ago

"The one-time state fee for the card is 50 euros, other fees will depend on service providers – public digital services will be offered mostly free-of-charge, just like to ‘real’ residents."

daveloyall4• 12 years ago

For some time, I have daydreamed of various cool scenarios that would only be possible with a government-issued digital ID.

But in my daydreams, I've never considered a third-party government issuer. I don't see value in this beyond the value that I see in a corporate-issued digital ID, and that's hardly more valuable than a self-issued ID.

Obviously, Estonia has considered some angle which I have not.

You can become an e-Estonian!

They should probably change that to e-Stonian or something so that it's pronounced "eastonian". :) The "eee-eh" is awkward to pronounce.

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Which scenarios have you thought of?

A start would be to do anything an Estonian can do today online in almost real time. Founding a company online: 5 minutes and you're in business. Very simple tax and other legislation, so very simple reporting online - and getting tax refunds if needed in a few days.

But this should not be limited to existing legacy services we use. Think of what you could do anything online with an absolute cryptographically strong vetted proof, that it's you, valid across the world? That's very different from a corporate ID which has no power internationally.

daveloyall4• 12 years ago

* Will and testament

* Voting

* Facebook (or whatever)

* Spam

* Banking

* Contracts

* Jury duty (Don't think boring.. think sci-fi!)

* Taxes

* Whistleblowing

* Bar tabs

* Power of Attorney (This one has new meaning in this context. It's a technical thing, a provable act of delegation.)

* Police reports

Basically the same use cases as PKI, but if it were government issued, the common person would know what it means.

A conversation about a fender bender might include "Then, he drove off without e-signing the standard insurance form!".

I dunno. Like I said, daydreaming.

TrainedMonkey• 12 years ago

Estonian language is perceived as having uncharacteristically long dragging of vowels during pronunciation, so e-Estonian works just as well. I wonder if there is some kind of inside joke around that.

impendia• 12 years ago

The name of the country, and of the language, in Estonian is Eesti.

goodcanadian• 12 years ago

For some time, I have daydreamed of various cool scenarios that would only be possible with a government-issued digital ID.

Obviously, Estonia has considered some angle which I have not.

I think the angle is that it allows a business presence in the EU and Eurozone for essentially anyone.

lifeisstillgood• 12 years ago

Two things leap out

- who makes the smart card? What is the model?

- wow - that's just like Neal Stephenson and joining Tribes based not on location but membership.

But I can't see myself going to Estonia just to pick one up ... I'll wait till the embassy in London does it :-)

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

It's made by Trüb in Switzerland, the leading player in Europe in issuing national id cards: http://www.trueb.ch/en/identity-card/secure-citizens

Here are the Estonian specs: http://www.id.ee/index.php?id=35772

asstonian3• 12 years ago

EstEID specification - covers all ID-card application versions issued in Estonia: http://www.id.ee/public/TB-SPEC-EstEID-Chip-App-v3_5-2014032...

The Estonian ID-card and Digital Signature Concept: http://www.id.ee/public/The_Estonian_ID_Card_and_Digital_Sig...

jp555• 12 years ago

Ah yes the Phyles of Diamond age. But this e-residency is still within the confines of a nation-state, whereas Stephenson's Phyles/Tribes replace the nation-state.

I can see Bitcoin - or its decedents - easily being used for Phyle "ID-card" infrastructure; no nation-state required.

ikawe2• 12 years ago

I was in Estonia two days ago. I just passed through on a whim as part of a European bicycle tour. I am embarrassed to admit, I knew very little about the country before being there.

I was only there a week, so my impressions are addmittedly naive, but very positive. There was a lot of technology forward thinking - online voting, constitutional right to internet access, co-working spaces catering to young entrepreneurs.

So quite hight tech on the one hand, and on the other hand, there is a deep respect for and serious comprehension of nature. The country is 50% forest! And my experience with Estonian camp sites was that they were free, ancient, and beautiful. I felt like I was camping in a sacred grove (I probably was).

Man, wish I had stayed longer. Anyone doing any cool projects there?

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Re projects, here's a list of some of the Estonian startups: http://hub.garage48.org/estonian-startups

sudowhodoido3• 12 years ago

I see a lot of that across Europe. I've been dying to do a road trip out that way (from the UK) but it's difficult with three children.

Everyone I've met and spoken to out there has been through some serious shit right up until the late 1990s from wars to genocides. They really are forward thinking because looking back hurts badly.

It might sound cheesy but I have a lot of hope for Europe and most of it comes from the East.

At the same time I'm disgusted at how the media and general population treats our fellow Europeans.

vidarh• 12 years ago

Everyone I've met and spoken to out there has been through some serious shit right up until the late 1990s from wars to genocides.

"Out there"?

I'm going to presume that the wars and genocide you're talking about was the former Yugoslavia, as not many places fit the bill unless you go looking much further away, in which case Estonia is almost as far from there as it is from the UK (driving distance can go either way depending on route).

And still 1700km from Estonia to Donetsk, Ukraine if you want to include that conflict...

jacquesm3• 12 years ago

It might sound cheesy but I have a lot of hope for Europe and most of it comes from the East.

I very much agree with you. The East of Europe has very recent memory of how not to run countries, the West is already forgetting those lessons and repeating past mistakes. For now the West is still ahead economically, but I suspect that this will not last indefinitely. You can pretty much draw a line through 'Helmstedt' (the site of the old autobahn border crossing between 'East' and 'West' Germany) and use that as the pivot point. On the left of that pivot the swing is steadily downwards whereas on the east of that up to the Russian border there is slow but fairly steady progress.

Of course the map is not the territory and you'd have to account for the situations further North and South with different pivot points but on the whole this seems to be how it is today.

netcan• 12 years ago

I am happy to hear you say this.

I live in Ireland and I'm very pro-EU. Not in the sense that I like or dislike policies or structures, but in the sense of the EU's real and original goals: Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace.

It makes me sick to see that countries have sent the EU Parliament their nationalists, populists and outright fascists.

Solidarity. Open Borders. Peace. It's worth making it a generational goal. A thousand years of solidarity, open borders & peace.

I have hope for, with and from our brother east of here (which for me is pretty much all Europe :) .

saraid216• 12 years ago

At the same time I'm disgusted at how the media and general population treats our fellow Europeans.

I'm having trouble interpreting this sentence since I have no context. Does "the media and general population" refer to Western Europeans or does it refer to Estonians?

yurylifshits• 12 years ago

Most of Skype early development was made in Estonia.

namenotrequired• 12 years ago

Excuse the OT, I'm considering a visit. As a foreigner with no connections, how do you recommend I could get a feel for the startup scene there (as you seem to have done)?

Anyone doing any cool projects there?

One Estonian startup whose product I use a lot is TransferWise, here's an invite link (for one free currency transfer):

https://transferwise.com/u/5d78

tauntz2• 12 years ago

Ping me when you're around - Estonia is so small that everybody in the tech scene knows almost everybody. There are lots of people who'd like to show you around and talk about startups and technology in general!

mcv• 12 years ago

I've never been there, but from what I understand, they love folk music, and kids learn to program in primary school. Sounds like a wonderful country. Also the home of Skype. Not to be underestimated.

jmspring• 12 years ago

There are a few startups that have been started by Skype alumni in Estonia. Transferwise as mentioned above is one. Another is https://lingvist.io. Another which is dual homed in Estonia and Palo Alto is http://teleport.org.

I went to Tallinn for the first time in 2002 before it was part of the EU. I took the ferry from Helsinki and spent the day walking around the old town. Quite enjoyable. Two things that really stood out were - internet cafes were readily available and extremely cheap (under $2/hour from what I recall) and the beer was cheap :)

I have since been there a handful of times while I was at Skype - unfortunately I never did make it outside of Tallinn.

Edit - I forgot, I caught a rather fun Folk-metal band on Eurovision when I was visiting once. Metsatoll - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC3Q9q4cRZA

mrkickling• 12 years ago

I'm quite sure skype is originaly a swedish company

EDIT: seems like it was made in Estonia, but that the founders were swedish and danish.

tauntz2• 12 years ago

A shameless plug but since you asked for it.. :) We're doing something cool - at least it's really cool to me - a super simple CI server for mobile apps for freelancers and small teams (greenhouseci.com).

By the way, Estonia has a cool tech scene also outside of Tallinn! We're in Tartu and there are a lot of cool startups here too!

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

+1 for Tartu! :)

rudolfosman• 12 years ago

Check this out - www.zazler.com Webserver designed to work with relational databases and bring more value on client-side. Zazler's unique architecture speeds up building mobile apps, JavaScript heavy interfaces and integrations by reducing amount of code and todo list. Basically, it creates a RESTful API of a relational database. Written in Haskell, in Estonia :-)

duckingtest2• 12 years ago

There's nothing particularly Estonian to this - you can buy European digital identity in all EU countries (except Great Britain and Ireland, last I checked). All documents signed by your key are legally as valid as those signed by your hand. Sadly, it's not used much outside of government services.

throwaway_yy2Di• 12 years ago

Isn't that for citizens and residents of those EU states? This "e-residency" is for anyone in the world: there's 241 nations in the "Your Country" menu.

(which by the way is a few years outdated: e.g. there's no South Sudan, and Libya is still the "Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", which was Qaddafi's name for it).

duckingtest2• 12 years ago

No, it's the exact same thing (although it appears to be the cheapest in Estonia), it's the exact same EU-wide law. The only difference is they market it for foreigners.

tikums2• 12 years ago

And then be sure to read this: https://estoniaevoting.org/

E-future cannot be built if we don't fix serious issues with software engineering. There is no guarantee of security. There is no assurance. We basically don't know how to build secure systems yet. As daily events show (from #fappening, #shellshock to Snowden's revelations), this is one of those "hard", unresolved problems...and not just from algorithmic (non-repudiation) perspective, but also from a practical engineering perspective (we are still dealing with buffer overflows).

“The software security industry today is at about the same stage as the auto industry was in 1930" ... "it looks fast, goes nice but in an accident you die.” ... "The major shortfall is absence of assurance (or safety) mechanisms in software. If my car crashed as often as my computer does, I would be dead by now.” -- Brian Snow, Former Technical Director of the NSA, We Need Assurance http://www.research.att.com/talks_and_events/2008_distinguis....

asstonian3• 12 years ago

sigh, not this again.

only found this not-very-good response in english to those "experts": http://www.vvk.ee/valimiste-korraldamine/vvk-uudised/vabarii...

but saying "terribly insecure" is more than wrong. yeah, thare are many procedural things which could be better, but technologically estonian e-voting is secure. only serious threat is propaganda.

tikums2• 12 years ago

Are you saying it's resistant to penetration by Russian security services? Sorry if I don't take your word for it. They have just successfully hacked into several of the top financial institutions in the world: http://www.networkworld.com/article/2691902/security0/russia...

They got away with customer data and who-knows-what-else. I'm pretty sure JP Morgan has a bigger cyber-security budged than the whole state of Estonia, many times over. And then check the laundry list of these: http://cybercampaigns.net/

The basic truth is: we still don't quite know how to design digital information systems that can resist attacks from very persistent or nation state level actors. Even if these are air-gaped (as demonstrated by Stuxnet).

eallik• 12 years ago

That analysis was done by a group of individuals with strong ties to the biggest opposition party in Estonia, whose voters are primarily those who are less likely to participate in e-voting; they've been anti-promoting the e-voting system ever since they went to opposition; prior to that, they'd been openly positive about it it.

The analysts themselves were invited to the country and to do the analysis by that opposition party (Centre Party/Keskerakond); they had participated in several Centre Party events prior to publishing the research. They were reimbursed for their expenses and most likely paid a fee for the analysis. The group had demands that the system be taken down; they however refused to publish details about the study which is uncommon and is not a sign of goodwill.

plainOldText• 12 years ago

I believe this has huge implications for someone who would want to operate a company from a business friendly country, as opposed to say a country where the individual is located physically but is otherwise corrupt or war ridden.

My understanding is that this status allows you to form companies, open bank accounts and sign binding documents just like someone living in Estonia. And that is pretty impressive.

Add cryptocurrencies into play, and whole new world of companies is now suddenly possible.

boh2• 12 years ago

"Money laundering has never been so easy! Thanks E-stonia!"

cpach4• 12 years ago

So money laundering is the only reason for using cryptocurrencies? And who says cryptocurrencies can’t be regulated?

kteofanidis2• 12 years ago

From the website: To apply for one, you need to make visit a Police and Border Guard office in Estonia – there you need to submit an application and provide biometrical data (your facial image and fingerprints) for background check.

I don't think it works for money laundering in any way.

agilebyte7• 12 years ago

It is to use Estonia's digital services and does not give you residency.

Nothing stops you opening a company in Estonia now, but that does not mean you would only pay corporation taxes there (they are at 10% when distributed as dividends), your physical location plays a role too.

imeikas• 12 years ago

Dividends are taxed this year at 21%. And if I'm not mistaken tax rate is lowered to 20% next year, reinvested profit is not taxed.

wiradikusuma• 12 years ago

Can you work for your own Estonian company, given that you're non-resident? (You can start your own US company, even remotely, but you can't work for it, unless you have Working Visa)

pdabbadabba2• 12 years ago

I agree this is interesting, but the problem is that there is nothing to stop the government of the country in which you physically reside from having different ideas about what laws govern your dealings.

If the country you are physically in wants to (e.g.) tax you, they can. (There are, of course, many more nefarious possibilities than taxation.) This is, I think, true in an "in accordance with international law" sense (though there is the possibility that a bilateral double taxation treaty might apply) and it is certainly true in a "who's to stop them" sense. (And if we're hypothesizing that the person is physically located in a corrupt/war torn country, the latter would probably be all that matters anyway.)

tjbiddle• 12 years ago

Can they though? If all of the money is kept in Estonia for example, and none actually goes through your identity or a business elsewhere - then that company wouldn't have any right to it from my understanding. Until you pay someone in another country - then the other one can't dip their hand in it. Isn't this why so many companies are based out of random countries to begin with?

EGreg• 12 years ago

What is the point of this?

anmol• 12 years ago

This is awesome.

Estonia could have a shot at becoming the "Delaware" for non-US entrepreneurs, esp EU, i.e. have all the high-growth companies incorporate because of clear, friendly startup support infrastructure and laws.

bjelkeman-again• 12 years ago

It is very entrepreneurial of the Estonian government. Quotes from their announcement:

"e-residency is also launched as a platform to offer digital services to a global audience with no prior Estonian affiliation – for anybody who wants to run their business and life in the most convenient aka digital way! We plan to keep adding new useful services from early 2015 onwards."

http://e-estonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Become-Eston...

otuutti• 12 years ago

Deosn't suprise me when the Estonian president has been quite actively involved with for example Slush http://www.slush.org/

memnips• 12 years ago

Is there a tax advantage here? Estonia's tax system is supposed to be very simple, and allows for a 0% corporate income tax on all profits that are re-invested into the corporation (source: http://www.incorporate.ee/why-estonia/low-tax-jurisdiction).

Does this mean I can form a corporate entity in Estonia and gain all the tax benefits without any physical presence?

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Yes, you can keep the corporate profits in the corporate entity until their distribution. There is a 21% tax though on distributed profits like dividends. Until you keep the money in the company or re-invest to subsidiaries, it's ot taxed. http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/tax-syste...

The rest depends on various double-taxation treaties which affect more individuals.

agilebyte7• 12 years ago

If you want to pay taxes only in Estonia, consult a Double Tax Treaty between Estonia and your country of physical residence. Usually you would be able to employ a person in Estonia to close deals/contracts to qualify. But read the document.

As soon as you distribute the profits, 10% tax applies from the Estonian end.

alvarosm2• 12 years ago

Usually, if your country has a DTA with estonia you'll have to pay whatever your country takes for dividend distributions anyway. The DTA means you can pay 10% to Estonia and the rest to your country but in total you're still paying whatever your country wants, in total. There might be other advantages, however, but repatriating dividends is not going to be one of them.

markvdb2• 12 years ago

You will have to be very very careful about making Estonia the real physical center of the commercial activities deployed by your company.

If you don't - let's say you're Dutch, living in Holland and consulting mostly for Dutch clients, then forget it.

But let's say you're Dutch, you have a girlfriend in Estonia, you work from there a week every month, and you have clients in several EU countries, with NL only one of them... Maybe you even have a local employee in Estonia. That will work no problem.

agilebyte7• 12 years ago

Or you and your girlfriend are both directors and you meet at least 4 times (from what I've read) there to discuss company business. Hey, the company can pay for the trip from Netherlands too.

ricardobeat• 12 years ago

Can you elaborate on why exactly that would be a problem?

xmr• 12 years ago

TL;DR No.

You're likely to run into domestic Controlled Foreign Corporation rules. Basically if you or your family own a large portion of a foreign registered company and that company is taxed less than domestic tax rates, it'll be classed as actually residing in your home country for corporate tax purposes.

wellboy• 12 years ago

Why is Estonia the smartest country? Because in Estonia, EVERYONE needs to learn how to code, from primary school to graduating high school. http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/04/estonia-code-academy/

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

listic2• 12 years ago

What are the differences between residency and e-residency? E.g. they won't allow me to vote, will they? What else?

fmx• 12 years ago

Even (physical) residence will not allow you to vote, only citizenship will. From the site: "This [e-residency] will not entail full legal residency or citizenship or right of entry to Estonia."

zxexz• 12 years ago

Yeah, only EU citizenship along with residency allows one to vote.

mr_spothawk• 12 years ago

why isn't this an HTTPS site?

jkaljundi12• 12 years ago

Why should each marketing site be HTTPS?

serf• 12 years ago

because (although incorrect) some people consider email addresses to be semi-confidential, and one could profit from the automated scraping of addresses from a router that sees a lot of public traffic.

UnethicalHacks• 12 years ago

because it's only a lead gen page.

ahmett• 12 years ago

They could have SSL encryption on this site and perhaps launch it under some government TLD instead of .com.

avaku• 12 years ago

e-stonian - is obviously how it should have been called ;)

jzd131• 12 years ago

Most of the team of my startup SaleMove is in Tartu! This is yet another example of how great Estonia is for tech. If you want to develop for a great startup there reach out on our website!

kstrauser• 12 years ago

Is there any reason why I - being perfectly happy with my American citizenship and residency and having zero intent to change either - should avoid getting one for the novelty of it? I mean, is there any possible downside to getting this thing out of a sci-fi novel?

eru• 12 years ago

There are only some minor downsides to acquiring a second citizenship of a decent country. (Watch out for American residency though, the taxes can be bad.)

I don't think there are any downsides to the e-residency, apart from having to give some of your data (and a modest fee) to Estonia.

pgl• 12 years ago

I think the biggest actual barrier to actually getting one would be having to apply in person, and pick up your card in person.

Certainly for Americans, not a huge number of people will have two weeks spare and sufficient funds to wait for their application to be processed (or the money to fly to Estonia and back twice in two weeks).

Edit: apparently they're "working to add capacity to our embassies to process e-residency applications and issue cards abroad by the end of 2015". This makes the whole thing absolutely amazing. Let's see how the rest of the world reacts, I guess.

scotty79• 12 years ago

How can anyone be happy with American citizenship when it places you under some of most bizzare laws seen in first world countries including huge tax code?

I really don't understand why Americans aren't moving out and dumping their citizenships in droves. I know that earning money in USA is supposedly easier than anywhere else but still...

saanilb• 12 years ago

Interesting Concept, other countries think about it.

6t6t6• 12 years ago

This is something that has been used in many countries already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_identity_card

Maybe the main difference is that they will issue it also to non-residents.

By the way, I don't know in other countries but in Spain it was a complete failure due to a really bad implementation: only worked with Internet Explorer, reader with proprietary drivers, etc...

huhtenberg2• 12 years ago

Isn't this just a thinly-veiled form of off-shoring? With all related consequences.

embro• 12 years ago

Estonia is such a nice country for people who own electric cars. They have many level 3 chargers.

Source : http://www.plugshare.com

Become Estonia’s e-resident

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