How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/09/29/352476454/how-hong-kong-protesters-are-connecting-without-cell-or-wi-fi-networks

by evo_9 • 12 years ago

445 104 12 years ago

npr.org

ck22• 12 years ago

Given how China is able to completely hide the protests inside the mainland, I fear for how this is going to end, because they can hide that too.

I mean who really is going to come to their defense, look how everyone immediately abandoned Ukraine.

xnull3• 12 years ago

Wait who abandoned Ukraine?

socceroos• 12 years ago

Sanctions don't count. When people are dying sanctions don't count.

e12e4• 12 years ago

No one abandoned Ukraine -- there's still a proxy war brewing there, between NATO and Russia. One might argue that it would be better for Ukraine if it was actually "abandoned".

Between Russian "volunteers" and neo-nazis with EU/NATO support, I predict the ones loosing are "most everyone else".

zhemao• 12 years ago

It would be pretty hard to completely hide something that big considering many Hong Kongers have relatives living on the mainland and vice-versa. Unless they completely close off the internal border and sever all communication lines, word is going to get out. But if that happened, people would definitely know that something is off.

Currently, the official Chinese media isn't trying to hide what is happening, but they are trying to put their own spin on it.

Zirro• 12 years ago

If the authorities sought to disrupt these networks, would it not be possible to jam Bluetooth (and Wi-Fi) signals within a certain area?

ISL• 12 years ago

It would have collateral effects (disabling all wireless activity in the area of jamming), but it's absolutely possible.

wyager• 12 years ago

disabling all wireless activity in the area of jamming

Only on the jammed frequencies. Police radios and such will keep working.

xnull3• 12 years ago

100% possible and at reasonably low cost.

pshc• 12 years ago

Authorities could also produce rogue clients that spam malicious messages--depends how resilient FireChat's protocol is and how well it filters noise (I might be talking FUD though as I haven't tried it).

Moreover, there's no way to police bad actors in a local mesh, and no global blockchain you can trust.

cik• 12 years ago

I've been wondering about exactly this - the agreed upon blockchain problem. Why not localized meshnets based on Hyperboria (http://hyperboria.net/). It can solve the problems of trusted blockchain - but you still have the social problem of interloper.

ryan-allen• 12 years ago

I don't see why not, they're already conducting aggressive SIGINT operations against it's own citizens!

matznerd• 12 years ago

yes it's not very hard to jam, there are many jammers available online, a top result in a quick search was ironically from a site called jammerfromchina.com...[1] Also, with an alfa wireless card and python (scapy module) it can be done pretty easily [2].

[1] http://www.jammerfromchina.com/categories/WiFi%7B47%7DBlueto... [2] https://github.com/DanMcInerney/wifijammer

visarga• 12 years ago

Can light be used to send messages when wi-fi is jammed? I mean modulating the torchlight and using cams. I realize this would be very low bandwidth though...

spacefight• 12 years ago

I'm 100% sure they will. It's just a learning process on the gov side, kicked of by recent events.

morsch• 12 years ago

The next step would be exchanging messages via NFC.

E.g. say for a p2p-twitter app, users A and B go into the exchange with their own versions of the global p2p-twitter feed, and exit the exchange with a merged version.

You could do federated, store-and-forward direct messaging, too. We already have a protocol for a very similar use-case: SMTP. :) Of course, with a sometimes-offline P2P mesh you usually don't know if any given hop decreases the distance to the destination.

You'd probably end up just merging all existing messages, so that everyone has everyone elses "email", and filter out the messages belonging to you via asymmetric encryption. So it's just an application of the above p2p-twitter thing. Public messages could be unencrypted.

I think some blockchain-based messaging systems work in a similar way, since there everybody has everybody elses messages per definition. Maybe a blockchain-based protocol is a good fit anyway, probably not though since I'm not sure how it would do the merge(A,B) function.

lifeisstillgood• 12 years ago

I absolutely love that idea !

nitrogen2• 12 years ago

There were also systems designed for the BBS days that expected to have zero connectivity most of the time. They would dial other computers periodically and exchange data. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FidoNet

ondrae• 12 years ago

An aside: Some group was pretending to be Code for Hong Kong and was spreading a fake messaging app. http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1594667/fake-occu...

You can read about a tear down of the fake app at https://code4hk.hackpad.com/Fake-Code4HK-Mobile-App-HQXXrylI...

e12e4• 12 years ago

So, Open Garden has an eco-system of mesh-networking that is a Walled Garden?

breezer00• 12 years ago

One question, does it just use Bluetooth? Or is there something else?

mkoryak• 12 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End

xnull2guest2• 12 years ago

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/01/power_and_the...

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/the_battle_fo...

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/03/privacy_and_p...

LeoPanthera2• 12 years ago

I wanted to like FireChat, as it was previously possible to use it entirely offline, in a purely P2P fashion.

While this is still possible, you are now forced to first create an account online, and subscribe to a bunch of internet-based channels, before the app will let you use the P2P portion.

This is frustrating. The market is wide open for someone to make a pure P2P communications app that doesn't require internet access at all, even initially.

sounds• 12 years ago

servalproject.org is free (and open source)

P2P voice, chat and online status.

Uses Ad Hoc networking, which iirc FireChat uses bluetooth so servalproject should get better range.

I'm not affiliated with the project in any way (I'm not in Australia) but I've happily used it for some tests.

sixQuarks• 12 years ago

terrible name!!! They need a catchy name like FireChat.

notastartup2• 12 years ago

this is interesting what is ad hoc networking and how does it work offline? Firechat uses bluetooth but doesn't work with iphone to android communication?

higherpurpose• 12 years ago

FireChat also doesn't encrypt communications, which makes it rather dangerous in such situations. There have already been reports of government agents infiltrating in the protest movement to install malware in their phones.

sp332• 12 years ago

What's the point of encrypting public chat?

Florin_Andrei• 12 years ago

you are now forced to first create an account online, and subscribe to a bunch of internet-based channels, before the app will let you use the P2P portion.

Hm, I don't know. I've unsubscribed from all internet-based channels, and the P2P still seems available.

LeoPanthera2• 12 years ago

Right, but you're still forced to sign up in the first place.

ck22• 12 years ago

By the way, check out the sheer size of the protests via drone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ7r8qi3NIY

Near the middle they fly higher and zoom out and what you thought was large before turns out to be massive.

Moru• 12 years ago

And then you watch the news reports daytime and realize what you thought was massive during night was pretty small after all.

monort• 12 years ago

Your statement seems to be incorrect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q919bQOThvM

qewrffewqwfqew• 12 years ago

Oh, with a mesh wifi network. I have to stop taking headlines at their word.

unethical_ban• 12 years ago

"Without cell or wifi [to the internet]" is a reasonable implication.

Did you think this was an article about the human microphone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microphone

hackuser• 12 years ago

Does it use Wifi? Someone else posted saying it was Bluetooth.

arjunvarma2• 12 years ago

i think its wifi else the reach of network would be far less

tszming• 12 years ago

Used firechat in the area yesterday, I think there are two issues:

1. information overload, hard to catch up the messages from all the people

2. some people are spreading rumors and fake information.

It would be great if we still can use the underlying network but have a way to filter out information (e.g. mgs from friends or friends or friends only)

xnull2guest2• 12 years ago

2. some people are spreading rumors and fake information.

Yeah that would be government purposefully trying to sabotage the protests.

koyote• 12 years ago

Or trolls being trolls.

notastartup2• 12 years ago

how does firechat establish mesh networking with just blue tooth? how do you make iphone chat with android?

also, could it be possible to deploy some electromagnetic pulse to destroy all phones?

niutech• 12 years ago

Serval Project seems more secure and it's open source: http://www.servalproject.org/

Sami_Lehtinen• 12 years ago

Bitmessage would work beautifully over mesh network, because it's store and replicate solution.

jokoon2• 12 years ago

how does it work ? ad-hoc wifi ?

vog• 12 years ago

I find it interesting that here in Berlin (and other cities in Europe, mostly in Germany), we have this for many years - not just for protesters, but for anyone. However, it's not a smartphone app (the network predates smartphones), but a mesh network of WLAN access points. The name of this project is Freifunk: http://freifunk.net/en/

erikb2• 12 years ago

I live in Berlin since 8 years but never heard about it. Thanks!

svankmajer• 12 years ago

Here in Buenos Aires, there's a long-running initiative that reminded me of Freifunk. http://buenosaireslibre.org/

Swannie• 12 years ago

IIRC a number of the contributors to the downstream projects of Serval were some of the early contributors to freifunk.net.

My understanding is that freifunk was a pretty major testbed for peer-to-peer mesh network protocols in Linux, and it's that heritage that's made it into things like Serval and the Mesh Potato.

Whilst Serval has moved on to its own OSLR variant, its roots are firmly embedded in the B.A.T.M.A.N. protocol.

jokoon2• 12 years ago

I've wanted that tech for years since wifi was being used.

serval use long range wifi to do it, but what's the range ?

erikb2• 12 years ago

Does the general population in HK still has access to FB/Twitter etc?

igonvalue• 12 years ago

Was anyone else wondering what actual protocol FireChat uses (answer: bluetooth), and found it strange that the article only mentioned it once, and not at the beginning?

aragot• 12 years ago

Correct. They didn't mention alternative points of views either, like "Is it secure", "Is it encrypted", "Is it centralized", "Are there competitors". It's a bit one-sided towards FireChat.

lucb1e• 12 years ago

Reading up on FireChat, it appears to have no encryption or security whatsoever. The owners are like "we don't want you to do illegal things with it anyway" (or so I read). Doesn't sound like the greatest app...

portstarboard2• 12 years ago

It’s good that the weather is really gentle now in Hong Kong.

Here in Ukraine this past winter the “designed in California” didn’t last too long during -13C..-18C nights, even with an external battery, so walkie-talkies were helpful at times. However, the cellular networks did work in the downtown, perhaps with just minor outages, even during the most violent crackdowns.

And to address some of the either Russian trolls or just misinformed minds elsewhere in the comments. I won’t go into much details, just address some points.

- The whole situation in Ukraine was, and is, largely provoked and inflamed by Russia. Empires being what empires are, even fading ones, try to concur and/or influence as much neighbours as possible, especially if a neighbour is posing an indirect threat to the empire’s regime rulers. No need to take my word on it, just study recent conflicts around Russian borders since the 90s.

- All sorts of people, from all kinds of backgrounds, education, income, etc, took part in the protests. From poor farmers and peasants, through students and professors, to entrepreneurs, CEOs of big companies/multinational branches, and other well-off people.

- To call all these people “fascists”, “junta”, is something a Gebbels would do. Especially when coming from a state that has extreme press and internet censorship, where all the power lies in the hands of the state security service, and where sexual/national minorities live under real threat and danger of persecution. Especially ridiculously it sounds given the number of Jews, and well-off ones, taking parts in the protests, alongside the so-called “radicals”.

- Somebody mentioned “Svoboda” and “Pravyj Sektor” as boogeymen. “Svoboda” has like 1% support now; it lost the support greatly during the protests themselves, when people found out that their “radicalism” is only in words, but not in action. The leadership is very money-oriented, and it shows. Regular members are more or less OK, as members political parties go; most are just regular patriots, like you have in the US and elsewhere. “Pravyj Sektor” is really just a bunch of kids; we’ve bought them socks and some underwear during the winter. Aren’t any more radical than most kids their age anywhere in the world.

- Russian propaganda was working very hard all these years against the Ukrainian state, but as we can see, it took root only in some parts of the 2, out of 25, regions. The reasons are simple - these are very “depressed”, poor regions; people live there in constant poverty, without decent jobs, repressed by local feudal lords, without proper education and perspective on life. This is not an excuse for what they’ve started, but at least it explains the causes. In other, considered “pro-Russian” but wealthy, regions the propaganda didn’t take as much root, and after the events of this year, there’s little left of the “pro-Russian” part in them, even as they continue to speak Russian in everyday life.

- As for the West, we’ve seen who’s who now, and what they are worth. That was a hard yet an important lesson. We are learning to rely only on ourselves, and we’ll manage. Also, given that Ukraine has given up the world’s 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in 1994, in exchange for security guarantees, it will be a good lesson for other countries for the future. One which will probably not help improve the global demilitarisation, however.

Thank you for reading, and please excuse the long post.

P.S. Didn’t find my old “Startup News” account credentials, not really much of a poster, but decided not skip this one thread.

teekert• 12 years ago

Thanx for your reply!

You know, it is very hard here to form an opinion on these things (Netherlands), we never ever see anything Putin says, we just have conflicting messages in and outside of the news (like http://www.elsevier.nl/Cultuur--Televisie/achtergrond/2014/9...), the article is about how our news organizations manipulated Putins words. We also hear 30 min after a plane is shot down that the Russians did it. And we hear Assad fired chemical weapons (he didn't but that is given much less attention to.)

Assad has been calling the rebels terrorists all along (http://www.globalresearch.ca/bashar-al-assad-interview-the-f...) but we were supporting them? But now we don't anymore... What are we supposed to think of all this! It drives me crazy.

Makes me not just want to call Putin a bad guy, I simply don't know and can't trust the news.

So I highly appreciate your insights in these matters.

trhway6• 12 years ago

So I highly appreciate your insights in these matters.

it isn't an insight. It is propaganda.

portstarboard2• 12 years ago

As we joke here, if the CIA gave the world the internet, the KGB gave it the internet trolls. Try harder, @teekert, link-spamming buddy.

tonyplee• 12 years ago

In the internet age as in any other time in history, whoever controls the communication channels win.

For now IMO the winners are: Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple(on the top but sliding down?), Amazon, US Gov, NSA, CIA, FBI, KGB, Russian Gov, Chinese Gov (win by block out others), Badu, Alibaba, WeChat, Line, SnapChat,

For now, the losers or losing players are : Yahoo, Nokia, Windows Phone, BlackBerry, Liberian Gov, Ukraine, Egypt(almost?), Most of Japanese Electronic firms.

moo• 12 years ago

Teekert gave a link to back up what they said, unlike you with your almost anonymous account and smarmy attitude. Ukraine just substituted one oligarchy for another but the current one has Western support ( IMF debt ). I agree with the perception of heavy Western news bias which is not credible. No credibility for the cursing Nuland handing out cookies, violent Kiev street thugs, and Kiev junta bombing their own people. It is not just 2 regions, remember Crimea voted for autonomy and no one is rioting to return to the Ukraine junta. And I'm not Russian, just US resident who is partly Latino who knows how the gringos operate. KGB jokes are pretty old you should update your humor, especially as KGB predate the Internet.

someone234• 12 years ago

Are you suggesting that the Russian "Empire" is more influential in Ukraine than the US Empire? :P

Or maybe that the West doesn't spew propaganda too? :)

tnuocca• 12 years ago

The first two paragraphs are useful contribution to discussion. The rest is... well, useless.

"...when people found out that their “radicalism” is only in words, but not in action."

So, you ditched them because they were not radical? If you're gonna rant, at least do it right. We get it, you're being fucked from all sides. Welcome to reality. Other than that, you forgot to mention over 30 volunteer battalions like Aidar that, according to Amnesty International, "have been involved in widespread abuses, including abductions, unlawful detention, ill-treatment, theft, extortion, and possible executions."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR50/040/2014/en/bb...

bitJericho• 12 years ago

What's to keep the government from broadcasting 2.4ghz noise and disrupting all communication on that frequency (or 5ghz in the case of some versions of wifi)? Are cell towers capable of such a thing?

calyth42• 12 years ago

The only thing that bothers me about the article is I can't find anything posted on RTHK's site stating that they will shut down the network.

http://rthk.hk/rthk/news/englishnews/index_news.htm http://rthk.hk/rthk/news/clocal/index_news.htm?clocal&201409...

And I know people who work at central, and live on the Island.

How Hong Kong Protesters Are Connecting, Without Cell or Wi-Fi Networks

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